Child Trafficking related

[katilac]

11 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

I totally agree with you, as you know. But she did ask not to quote her 🙂 . 

Oh, shoot, did she? Thank you! 

[saraha]

Some parenting fears, whether someone else finds them irrational or not, are very valid. I know that my children are more likely to be assaulted by someone they know, but in real life, a stranger actually tried to kidnap me off the street as I walked home from the dentist during the middle of the day when I was 11. If not for the heroic actions of a woman who just happened to be leaving for work and saw what was happening, who knows where I would be. I wish to this day that I had the chance to thank her. I was also assaulted as a young 20 year old. After a youth of being terrified to be alone, I had gotten left at a bar by an irresponsible friend and was assaulted on my way to my car.  I, thankfully, was never assaulted by someone I know, so even though I know logically that is the more likely scenario, the stranger danger thing is very real for me, and I have parented my kids like a freaking secret service agent to protect them from both. I am sorry they missed out on that independence, but you know what else they are missing out on? The trauma.  Statistically, I am an anomaly, but that doesn't make my fear for my family any less and it doesn't mean that I can't focus my attention on more than one risk.

I am so very sorry to all the posters who have suffered at the hands of someone else. I don't know how we managed to hold body and soul together after the things that we have been through. You are a tough bunch of chicks, and I am glad that you survived and able to make happy lives for yourselves.

ETA: I don't believe in Qanon theories, but I guess I just got my dander up about the statistics meaning someone's fears aren't valid vibe.

Edited February 25, 2021 by saraha

[Drama Llama]

I think the language of "stranger danger", and the way we talk to kids about stranger danger, is a problem.  I think we teach children, and adult with disabilities, that the familiar person is always safer, and that messaging can lead to kids being at more risk, rather than less.  

But that doesn't mean that I think that I think parents shouldn't also be watchful of our kids in public, or make choices that reduce their danger from kidnapping.  Yes, the risks are low, but I'm parent who bolts her furniture to the wall, and avoids blinds with cords, I think being aware of even rare risks makes sense.  I just think that we need to be careful about not inadvertently putting kids into riskier situations because we don't understand relative risk.

[Farrar]

I don't think it's belittling a fear at all to try and overcome it, especially when it's something that could happen, but is statistically highly improbable and not something anyone is likely to face.

Regardless, getting people arguing about these things is part of why the conspiracy theorists chose the issue of child trafficking to exploit. Because it's such a hot, touchy issue that people will argue about the ins and outs because no one wants to seem like they don't care about what is a very real issue.

I think it's pretty established here that stereotypical child abductions are super rare but real. Some people fear them anyway. That's fine. That's just a fact. Even if you fear this extremely rare but real thing, if you want to help victims of child trafficking, you'll condemn the idea that tons of high ranking politicians are involved in a vast conspiracy to traffic children in large numbers. Because that's not real in any way shape or form.

[Melissa in Australia]

17 hours ago, 4atHome said:

Yes, I think we all know it happens, but I don't leave my kids with other caregivers...  and I absolutely believe the foster system is fraught with abuse and kids would be better off in orphanages.

 

 

do you know anyone brought up in an orphanage?

 I do. my father spent time in an orphanage. he killed himself when he was 20. My aunt was brought up in an orphanage. she was repeatedly raped by the priest there. she killed herself in her  30s

 I also know people who are in and have been through foster care

 both systems are completely broken and the only solution that I can come up with is mandatory sterilization for people who take drugs and people who have had a child removed.

[Eos]

I'm so sorry, Melissa.

[Ausmumof3]

6 hours ago, Not_a_Number said:

I think one of the reasons we talk past each other when we talk about statistics is that probability doesn’t really feel like a real thing for everyone. Like, “OK, so one is more likely, but what does that even mean? What if you’re one of the ones who have the unlikely things happen to them?”

I think it’s like Sissy in Hard Times says “it must be just as hard upon those who were starved whether the others were a million, or a million million”.

Also statistics maybe captures abductions or probability of abduction as an absolute compared the risk of dying of the flu.  But maybe it doesn’t capture the emotional weight of the two things?  Losing a loved one in any possible way is terrible but maybe some ways hurt in a different way to others.  It’s like we talk about with COVID stats - it’s not just the dying but the long term harm, the fear of dying alone etc.  the parts that aren’t captured in statistics maybe but still make up part of our feelings toward possible outcomes.

[Guest]

11 hours ago, ktgrok said:

Same. She's just more anxious in general. I think when she was working she had an outlet - she worried about her patients. That spread the worry around. Now it's just focused on my sister and I and our kids. 

She sent me a link the other day to a news report about Ocala now a top crime city in Florida. Y'all....I don't live in Ocala. I'm over an hour away from there. There was zero reason this should be important news to me or my sister, but she sent it to both of us. 

If it is click bait, she clicks. 

I have been thinking about this a lot since I have been working. I think a lot of the phenomenon of believing in conspiracies seems to come down to this. How much time does a person have their minds focused on productive things vs. having a lot of time to go down rabbit holes on the web? The people I know with the most extreme views either a) listen to talk radio all day, every day, b) listen to certain TV news all day, every day, c) forward memes and tweets all day, every day, or some combination of those things. 

Sometimes I notice that the more intelligent someone is, the more easily they gravitate to this junk, because their prodigious brain capacity needs a task. 

[Laura Corin]

10 minutes ago, Ausmumof3 said:

 

Also statistics maybe captures abductions or probability of abduction as an absolute compared the risk of dying of the flu.  But maybe it doesn’t capture the emotional weight of the two things?  Losing a loved one in any possible way is terrible but maybe some ways hurt in a different way to others.  It’s like we talk about with COVID stats - it’s not just the dying but the long term harm, the fear of dying alone etc.  the parts that aren’t captured in statistics maybe but still make up part of our feelings toward possible outcomes.

Feelings of control or its lack factor in too. People underestimate the risk of driving and overestimate that of flying, because they feel in control behind the wheel. Perhaps similarly people feel in control of their home environment vs. the strange outdoors and thus mistake the relative risks.

[Ausmumof3]

1 minute ago, Laura Corin said:

Feelings of control or its lack factor in too. People underestimate the risk of driving and overestimate that of flying, because they feel in control behind the wheel. Perhaps similarly people feel in control of their home environment vs. the strange outdoors and thus mistake the relative risks.

Yep.  And I think there’s probably some kind of scientific thing that we’re instinctively more wary in a less familiar environment.  Our fear of danger reduces each time we do an action without anything bad happening even though the risks don’t go down.

[Eos]

@PenYou showed considerable courage to post your original thoughts because from your words you knew you would receive backlash in this forum filled with opinionated parents.  Homeschooling also takes a decent amount of bravery to buck the status quo.  From these two elements I can tell you are a courageous person.  It will take true grit to even consider stepping away from the internet and into real life to give time and money to organizations that work against trafficking, but I'm pretty sure you have that.  

[Not_a_Number]

1 hour ago, Ausmumof3 said:

I think it’s like Sissy in Hard Times says “it must be just as hard upon those who were starved whether the others were a million, or a million million”.

Also statistics maybe captures abductions or probability of abduction as an absolute compared the risk of dying of the flu.  But maybe it doesn’t capture the emotional weight of the two things?  Losing a loved one in any possible way is terrible but maybe some ways hurt in a different way to others.  It’s like we talk about with COVID stats - it’s not just the dying but the long term harm, the fear of dying alone etc.  the parts that aren’t captured in statistics maybe but still make up part of our feelings toward possible outcomes.

I think it’s just that we find some things easier to imagine and give them more weight. I don’t think it’s rational or leads to good decisions.

[HeartString]

2 hours ago, Quill said:

Sometimes I notice that the more intelligent someone is, the more easily they gravitate to this junk, because their prodigious brain capacity needs a task. 

QFT 

[Selkie]

While abductions are rare, I think many of us had unsettling encounters with adult male strangers when we were kids. I know I did, many times - lewd comments, gestures, following, that kind of thing. And yes, this was when I was a young child - although it certainly continued throughout my teen years, too.

For those of us who've experienced that, the concept of stranger danger doesn't seem all that far-fetched and ridiculous.

Maybe the people who are adamant about stranger danger not being a concern were fortunate enough to never have that happen, and therefore think it is unlikely to happen to anyone else. 

[Sneezyone]

2 hours ago, Selkie said:

While abductions are rare, I think many of us had unsettling encounters with adult male strangers when we were kids. I know I did, many times - lewd comments, gestures, following, that kind of thing. And yes, this was when I was a young child - although it certainly continued throughout my teen years, too.

For those of us who've experienced that, the concept of stranger danger doesn't seem all that far-fetched and ridiculous.

Maybe the people who are adamant about stranger danger not being a concern were fortunate enough to never have that happen, and therefore think it is unlikely to happen to anyone else. 

I don’t think so. I grew up in an urban area where catcalls, lewd exclamations, and gestures were the norm. It never went beyond looks and gestures. I think it has more to do with people being desensitized to aggressive/offensive overtures (owing to/developing the knowledge that they rarely lead anywhere). These things don’t shock or horrify me. Nor did I assume every jackass who whistled was gonna toss me into a perp van and speed off. As a well-developed 11yo, I quickly learned to go about my business with my RBF held high.

Edited February 25, 2021 by Sneezyone

[Laura Corin]

3 minutes ago, Selkie said:

While abductions are rare, I think many of us had unsettling encounters with adult male strangers when we were kids. I know I did, many times - lewd comments, gestures, following, that kind of thing. And yes, this was when I was a young child - although it certainly continued throughout my teen years, too.

For those of us who've experienced that, the concept of stranger danger doesn't seem all that far-fetched and ridiculous.

Maybe the people who are adamant about stranger danger not being a concern were fortunate enough to never have that happen, and therefore think it is unlikely to happen to anyone else. 

I was attacked and sexually assaulted by a stranger as a child, as well experiencing other unpleasant encounters. I find the statistics that stranger abduction is rare to be settling and reassuring.  My kids roamed free.

[Drama Llama]

2 hours ago, Laura Corin said:

Feelings of control or its lack factor in too. People underestimate the risk of driving and overestimate that of flying, because they feel in control behind the wheel. Perhaps similarly people feel in control of their home environment vs. the strange outdoors and thus mistake the relative risks.

I also think that we need to recognize that the risk to a population as a whole, is different from the risk to a specific child.

I know that children in the USA are far more likely to be killed by their mother than by a stranger.  But I am not concerned about my children being killed by their mother.  I feel like I know myself well enough that I can say with confidence that my kids are safe from that.  On the other hand, I think my kids' risk of being killed by a stranger is similar to that of the average kid. Putting those things together, i believe that my kids are safer with me, than they are with strangers. 

Because I believe that, I act on that belief.  For example, when my kids were little, and there was no covid,  I always went with them to the playground, and told them to stay within my sight.  When my son was sick we chose to have all overnight care done by a parent, so he was never alone in a room with a stranger.   I don't think that those decisions reflected that I didn't understand the statistic.  I think they reflect my understanding that statistics don't tell the whole story.  

But, even though I do think that strangers present a greater relative risk to my children than parents (and I realize that I'm way simplifying, because kids can also be hurt by acquaintances, and other family members, and neighbors, and coaches, and classmates), I am careful not to teach the concept of "stranger danger" or the idea that strangers present a specific danger.  I do this because I have seen that concept get mixed up in kids' minds, and lead to them behaving in ways that are less safe, rather than more. 

Instead I teach things like the following

1) Stay in places where there are witnesses.  Notice if an adult is preventing there from being witnesses, and report.  If you're separated from me in public, find a place with witnesses to wait.  (e.g. if a kid thinks that "strangers" are dangerous, then Starbucks, which is full of strangers is more dangerous than an empty park.  In fact the opposite is true).

2) If you need to ask for help, look for a mother with her own children, a grandmother, or someone who is working.  

3) How to approach people and ask for help.  A kid is way safer if they chose someone than if someone chooses them, so I intentionally plan activities that get my students comfortable walking up to a stranger and asking the for help (e.g. going to the librarian and asking them to help you find a book).  

4) Be prepared to leave a place.  Have a cell phone with the number of trusted adults, and GPS. Carry some cash for a cab. Pay attention to the route you took to get somewhere so you can leave.

All of these things reduce the likelihood that kids will be hurt by strangers or by people they know, without feeding into the idea that "strangers" are dangerous. 

 

[Danae]

4 minutes ago, BaseballandHockey said:

I also think that we need to recognize that the risk to a population as a whole, is different from the risk to a specific child.

I know that children in the USA are far more likely to be killed by their mother than by a stranger.  But I am not concerned about my children being killed by their mother.  I feel like I know myself well enough that I can say with confidence that my kids are safe from that.  On the other hand, I think my kids' risk of being killed by a stranger is similar to that of the average kid. Putting those things together, i believe that my kids are safer with me, than they are with strangers. 

Because I believe that, I act on that belief.  For example, when my kids were little, and there was no covid,  I always went with them to the playground, and told them to stay within my sight.  When my son was sick we chose to have all overnight care done by a parent, so he was never alone in a room with a stranger.   I don't think that those decisions reflected that I didn't understand the statistic.  I think they reflect my understanding that statistics don't tell the whole story.  

But, even though I do think that strangers present a greater relative risk to my children than parents (and I realize that I'm way simplifying, because kids can also be hurt by acquaintances, and other family members, and neighbors, and coaches, and classmates), I am careful not to teach the concept of "stranger danger" or the idea that strangers present a specific danger.  I do this because I have seen that concept get mixed up in kids' minds, and lead to them behaving in ways that are less safe, rather than more. 

Instead I teach things like the following

1) Stay in places where there are witnesses.  Notice if an adult is preventing there from being witnesses, and report.  If you're separated from me in public, find a place with witnesses to wait.  (e.g. if a kid thinks that "strangers" are dangerous, then Starbucks, which is full of strangers is more dangerous than an empty park.  In fact the opposite is true).

2) If you need to ask for help, look for a mother with her own children, a grandmother, or someone who is working.  

3) How to approach people and ask for help.  A kid is way safer if they chose someone than if someone chooses them, so I intentionally plan activities that get my students comfortable walking up to a stranger and asking the for help (e.g. going to the librarian and asking them to help you find a book).  

4) Be prepared to leave a place.  Have a cell phone with the number of trusted adults, and GPS. Carry some cash for a cab. Pay attention to the route you took to get somewhere so you can leave.

All of these things reduce the likelihood that kids will be hurt by strangers or by people they know, without feeding into the idea that "strangers" are dangerous. 

 

All of this.  When my kids were little we taught “stranger safety” not stranger danger.  How to interact with strangers in a way that increases your safety if you get separated from your parent.  

[Sneezyone]

1 hour ago, BaseballandHockey said:

I also think that we need to recognize that the risk to a population as a whole, is different from the risk to a specific child.

I know that children in the USA are far more likely to be killed by their mother than by a stranger.  But I am not concerned about my children being killed by their mother.  I feel like I know myself well enough that I can say with confidence that my kids are safe from that.  On the other hand, I think my kids' risk of being killed by a stranger is similar to that of the average kid. Putting those things together, i believe that my kids are safer with me, than they are with strangers. 

Because I believe that, I act on that belief.  For example, when my kids were little, and there was no covid,  I always went with them to the playground, and told them to stay within my sight.  When my son was sick we chose to have all overnight care done by a parent, so he was never alone in a room with a stranger.   I don't think that those decisions reflected that I didn't understand the statistic.  I think they reflect my understanding that statistics don't tell the whole story.  

But, even though I do think that strangers present a greater relative risk to my children than parents (and I realize that I'm way simplifying, because kids can also be hurt by acquaintances, and other family members, and neighbors, and coaches, and classmates), I am careful not to teach the concept of "stranger danger" or the idea that strangers present a specific danger.  I do this because I have seen that concept get mixed up in kids' minds, and lead to them behaving in ways that are less safe, rather than more. 

Instead I teach things like the following

1) Stay in places where there are witnesses.  Notice if an adult is preventing there from being witnesses, and report.  If you're separated from me in public, find a place with witnesses to wait.  (e.g. if a kid thinks that "strangers" are dangerous, then Starbucks, which is full of strangers is more dangerous than an empty park.  In fact the opposite is true).

2) If you need to ask for help, look for a mother with her own children, a grandmother, or someone who is working.  

3) How to approach people and ask for help.  A kid is way safer if they chose someone than if someone chooses them, so I intentionally plan activities that get my students comfortable walking up to a stranger and asking the for help (e.g. going to the librarian and asking them to help you find a book).  

4) Be prepared to leave a place.  Have a cell phone with the number of trusted adults, and GPS. Carry some cash for a cab. Pay attention to the route you took to get somewhere so you can leave.

All of these things reduce the likelihood that kids will be hurt by strangers or by people they know, without feeding into the idea that "strangers" are dangerous. 

 

This. My parents always emphasized PUBLIC spaces and groups, not strangers. This, walking down a busy street in big city, USA was NBD.

Edited February 25, 2021 by Sneezyone

[Sneezyone]

1 hour ago, Dreamergal said:

Very familiar with this. Groping was expected even when I was covered from neck to feet. Not everyday, but frequently enough. 

I am hyper vigilant about my children even now. Wore them on me or DH especially when we travelled. I never stopped living life as in never stoped taking the bus, living alone, moving to a different country alone or traveling later in life. But it still affects how vigilant I am. I am always aware of my surroundings like I am always aware of where my belongings are. I grew up in a society where there is heavy pickpocketing.

My son rides his bike with friends, I never let him do it alone. There is always a gang of boys who roam the neighborhood from house to house especially during summer. I always sit outside when he plays basketball with his friend (preCOVID) or the friend's mom or grandma does.  He is 13, tall and gangly, It is in the front yard  and we live in a safe neighborhood. But some adult, mostly a woman always sits outside when they play. 

At his age, I was taking the public bus or walking to school. DH or I always drive him to school and pick him up. 

 

The challenge with this is that you can end up with kids who are terrified to do these things alone, who cannot read a bus or train schedule, feel terrified to cross the street alone, etc. I have one of those and it’s not cute. We’ve had to deliberately teach how to use a crosswalk signal, how to identify safe spaces, how to use public transit. Having a car is a privilege and relying on one inhibits global travel (something we value). Every country is not like India and I can understand why experiences with the transit systems there would make someone more cautious. Those are not common experiences among Americans. My son regularly rides his bike, alone, to the store for candy. Not only is it great exercise but I can send him in to buy something and he can find it on the shelf (something many cannot do🤦🏽‍♀️). I cannot imagine supervising my 5’7”! son while he plays in our cul de sac. 🤷🏽‍♀️

Edited February 25, 2021 by Sneezyone

[Sneezyone]

16 hours ago, Selkie said:

I am sorry to hear about that, but you can take my word for it on the happenings in my county. Where I live, everyone knows everything that goes on. Keep in mind that when a school bus full of kids is in an accident, there are usually going to be a lot more injuries than an accident involving a car with a small number of occupants.

My DDs bus was in an accident last year. A car full of cheerleaders was not drivable afterward. The kids on the bus, all of them, proceeded on to campus unharmed. School buses have some of the best safety records of any vehicles on the road, in part because other drivers tend to be more cautious around their precious cargo. https://www.nhtsa.gov/road-safety/school-bus-safety

Edited February 25, 2021 by Sneezyone

[Sneezyone]

8 minutes ago, Dreamergal said:

He knows how to shop, take the transit, cross the road and so on because we constantly teach him when we travel and even in our city. But he has not done it himself alone yet. We are getting better at this. 

I was a more helicopter parent when he was younger, because he was my only for a long time. 😊 This is the better version. 

The thing though is, though I am rapidly approaching the time where I have lived half my life in the US, certain traumas never leave you. I always clutch my purse in front of me, ready to defend even in a grocery store parking lot filled with people, in broad daylight, children and DH with me. It sounds funny but It is second nature to me. I would carry a child on my hip, hold their hand or wear them depending on their age (I only ever had one child always with me if I was by myself- 9 years gap between them), push a full grocery cart and not place my purse on it, but clutch it in front of me. It sounds ridiculous but it is second nature, muscle memory to me. My neighborhood is filled with many people who are first generation immigrants like me and include grandparents who live or visit for months. Someone is always outside when one of the kids in the family play outside. Our neighbors who sit outside when I am not there are from another country too. 

Even in a very safe environment people do not feel safe even if you really are. Nothing can say otherwise. When you learn "how to be safe" in an environment that needs it especially in a hard way, it never leaves you even if you are in a truly safe environment. That is the tragedy of it. Out of all the ways I adapted here, there are certain things you can never turn off and it is second nature unless you really work at it. Most times, unless I make an effort it does not happen.

Oh, I get it, I just don’t think it’s wise to extrapolate, based on very different cultural dynamics, what the norms are here. My brick-house, golf course, cul-de-sac neighborhood is about as safe as it gets. I have to deliberately put my children on buses (with money and cell phones) to have them navigate using schedules and routes. As I routinely tell them...I’M GONNA DIE!! (someday) and then where will you be?! Lol. Growing up, street smarts were the norm. My kids lack it and they are poorer for it. It is possible, I think, to balance safety and freedom (including to make mistakes)/responsibility. This is just a super micro-level example of how that dance plays out. I’m a classic 80s latchkey kid. It shows in my parenting.

Edited February 25, 2021 by Sneezyone

[Not_a_Number]

1 hour ago, Selkie said:

While abductions are rare, I think many of us had unsettling encounters with adult male strangers when we were kids. I know I did, many times - lewd comments, gestures, following, that kind of thing. And yes, this was when I was a young child - although it certainly continued throughout my teen years, too.

For those of us who've experienced that, the concept of stranger danger doesn't seem all that far-fetched and ridiculous.

Maybe the people who are adamant about stranger danger not being a concern were fortunate enough to never have that happen, and therefore think it is unlikely to happen to anyone else. 

I think many more of us had ACTUAL negative experiences that went past lewd comments with people we knew. 

How many of us on here have been sexually harassed or assaulted by a family member or family friend? 

[Wheres Toto]

17 hours ago, Selkie said:

I am sorry to hear about that, but you can take my word for it on the happenings in my county. Where I live, everyone knows everything that goes on. Keep in mind that when a school bus full of kids is in an accident, there are usually going to be a lot more injuries than an accident involving a car with a small number of occupants.

You've had multiple accidents in your area where an entire school bus full of children were injured?   

In 2018 locally we had an accident where a school bus hit (or was hit by) a dump truck travelling at high speed on a major highway.  One teacher and one student were killed and there were a bunch of injuries.  But it was such an unusual thing it was getting coverage nationally at the time.  

I'm not in a rural area, I'm in the most densely populated state in the country so statistically the odds of something like that happening are higher.

[Not_a_Number]

1 hour ago, BaseballandHockey said:

I also think that we need to recognize that the risk to a population as a whole, is different from the risk to a specific child.

I know that children in the USA are far more likely to be killed by their mother than by a stranger.  But I am not concerned about my children being killed by their mother.  I feel like I know myself well enough that I can say with confidence that my kids are safe from that.  On the other hand, I think my kids' risk of being killed by a stranger is similar to that of the average kid. Putting those things together, i believe that my kids are safer with me, than they are with strangers. 

Oh, definitely. It doesn't make sense to extrapolate statistics to cases where they don't apply. 

So I certainly go with my kids to playground. However, I do tend to think that me watching them on the playground does less for their safety than making sure they stay well away from cars and making sure to put away poisonous substances. 

 

1 hour ago, BaseballandHockey said:

Because I believe that, I act on that belief.  For example, when my kids were little, and there was no covid,  I always went with them to the playground, and told them to stay within my sight.  When my son was sick we chose to have all overnight care done by a parent, so he was never alone in a room with a stranger. I don't think that those decisions reflected that I didn't understand the statistic.  I think they reflect my understanding that statistics don't tell the whole story.  

Statistics are an average, so of course they aren't applicable to individuals, except when the individual is similar to the average in key ways. 

[Scarlett]

My niece is 19 so not child trafficking, but certainly she is going through some real stuff.  But she wasn't snatched off the street.  She was lured in, probably through social media by people pretending to be her friend in increasingly twisted ways.  Her parents are in close contact with the police in several cities as well as advocacy groups trying to get her help.  So far no mention of Hollywood or politicians being involved.  

My niece is from an upper middle class family.  She has had everything given to her.  Her 3 siblings, while not perfect, have not fallen for this trap she is in.  Something in her psyche or perhaps some trauma has made her vulnerable to being drawn in to this horrible way of life.  

[Selkie]

21 minutes ago, Wheres Toto said:

You've had multiple accidents in your area where an entire school bus full of children were injured?   

Two in recent years with multiple injuries. No deaths. One happened right down the road from my house. Both occurred when roads were snow and ice covered.

[Sneezyone]

3 minutes ago, Selkie said:

Two in recent years with multiple injuries. No deaths. One happened right down the road from my house. Both occurred when roads were snow and ice covered.

That sounds like schools/businesses needed to be closed, not that the buses were unsafe.

[Selkie]

3 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

That sounds like schools/businesses needed to be closed, not that the buses were unsafe.

I have actually not said that buses are unsafe.

[Sneezyone]

Just now, Selkie said:

I have actually not said that buses are unsafe.

So what was the point of mentioning buses then?

[Selkie]

Just now, Sneezyone said:

So what was the point of mentioning buses then?

Look back at Tanaqui’s posts. She’s the one who brought up mass transit.

[Sneezyone]

For me, as others have said, if comes down to the idea that there are risks/risk factors WRT trafficking (most of which do not apply to my family) and with over-protection (most of which do apply to my family). Weighting one or the other more heavily doesn’t mean the other isn’t valued. It just means DH and I thought through, in an objective way, which was the bigger risk. I dunno. Something about growing up with Gary Ridgeway (Green River Killer) and Ted Bundy (local kid) and “NO HITCHHIKING” signs everywhere made it pretty clear to me that being ignorant, naive and passive were the biggest threats to my personal safety. Awareness, self-advocacy and shrewdness were/are our goals. Ya can’t thwart or eliminate every threat/risk but you can certainly make yourself less of an easy target.

Edited February 25, 2021 by Sneezyone

[Tanaqui]

I did bring up mass transit on the context that the most dangerous thing your child does every day is get in a car. Or exist near a car. Cars are dangerous, and kill people every single day.

[Katy]

51 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

For me, as others have said, if comes down to the idea that there are risks/risk factors WRT trafficking (most of which do not apply to my family) and with over-protection (most of which do apply to my family). Weighting one or the other more heavily doesn’t mean the other isn’t valued. It just means DH and I thought through, in an objective way, which was the bigger risk. I dunno. Something about growing up with Gary Ridgeway (Green River Killer) and Ted Bundy (local kid) and “NO HITCHHIKING” signs everywhere made it pretty clear to me that being ignorant, naive and passive were the biggest threats to my personal safety. Awareness, self-advocacy and shrewdness were/are our goals. Ya can’t thwart or eliminate every threat/risk but you can certainly make yourself less of an easy target.

That kid was somewhat local to me too. I wonder if our dads served together. 
 

I was never hurt by a family member. I was nearly kidnapped as a kid (a cop happened by and I waved) and the guy drove away.  I was harassed, grabbed, had adult strange men expose themselves to me a few times in middle school through college. I’ve had a foster child sexually abuse other kids in front of me faster than I could stop it. I still teach my kids something closer to Gavin de Becker’s Gift of Fear & Protecting the Gift than I do stranger danger.
 

Some strangers ARE dangerous. Some people test kids to see how they respond before grooming them. Many strangers are good people. Assuming you have neurotypical kids there’s a very good chance they are capable of understanding which strangers are fine to talk to and which should be avoided. And how to avoid being taken anywhere else. 

[ktgrok]

3 hours ago, Selkie said:

While abductions are rare, I think many of us had unsettling encounters with adult male strangers when we were kids. I know I did, many times - lewd comments, gestures, following, that kind of thing. And yes, this was when I was a young child - although it certainly continued throughout my teen years, too.

For those of us who've experienced that, the concept of stranger danger doesn't seem all that far-fetched and ridiculous.

 

Thats a whole different thing, though. I can (and do) think sexual assault is endemic in our society and so common as to be nearly universal, and also think that children being randomly stolen off the street and sold into sexual slavery is very very rare. 

Personally, my assaults were 1. in highschool, in the darkroom of our photography class by a student I'd known for years, 2. at a party in college, the friend of my teaching assistant's brother. I was introduced to him hours earlier, he was basically a friend of a friend, so not really a stranger, and 3. by a guy who again was a friend of a friend, I'd met him once before. We were in a public place, he drugged me, and no one realized what was going on. 

None of those have anything to do with career politicians, or silicon valley billionaires, or whatever else was in those videos shared by the OP. And none would have been prevented by having an escort walking home from school. 

So to me, the idea that my child will be snatched from my front yard is not something I worry about. How to spot and prevent sexual assault, yes, I worry about that. A lot. Enough to daydream about a compound patrolled by rottweilers. Enough to have basically had a mental breakdown during the Kavenaugh trials. (nearly bought a shotgun and a rottie during that phase. still now ruling those out)

[Not_a_Number]

I mean... obviously teach my kids not to go anywhere with other people. Not to mention which they don't have the opportunity: I'm almost always there. 

But practically all my experiences with creepy men who either were or could have been abusers were people who were well-known to me. There was the friend of the family who groped me when I was a young teen (14, I think, although I'm not sure -- the moment is engraved on my brain, but the timing is not), and there was the super sleazy professor who eventually got kicked out of his job for sexual harassment. 

And the only person who ever hit my sister was my mom, but that's a whole other story. 

[ktgrok]

6 minutes ago, Katy said:

I was nearly kidnapped as a kid (a cop happened by and I waved) and the guy drove away.   

Not to say you are wrong, but how do you know this guy was going to kidnap you, versus ask you where a store was or something? Was he already talking to you and trying to get you in the car? Caught later? I hear stories similar to this sometimes and wonder if it was just some clueless guy wondering where the nearest gas station is or something. (BTDT)

[Katy]

14 minutes ago, ktgrok said:

Not to say you are wrong, but how do you know this guy was going to kidnap you, versus ask you where a store was or something? Was he already talking to you and trying to get you in the car? Caught later? I hear stories similar to this sometimes and wonder if it was just some clueless guy wondering where the nearest gas station is or something. (BTDT)

He was trying to get me in his car. He got away but 2 days later he forced two girls my age into the backseat of his car at a middle school nearby.   And I’m not certain it’s the same guy but he looked the same & drove the same car as a guy who raped and murdered a girl about my age about a month later. Last I knew he’s still in prison. 
 

EtA:  the girls climbed out the door on the other side & started screaming. They got away. The child who was murdered was a family friend & didn’t have the chance to escape. 
 

ETA2: the girl that was murdered was HIS family friend, I didn’t know her. And the police officer who took my report followed up when the same car tried to grab two girls at the middle school a few neighborhoods over. The police were sure it was the same man. 

Edited February 25, 2021 by Katy

[MercyA]

On 2/24/2021 at 10:59 AM, Tanaqui said:

I'm actually shaking with the suppressed desire to tell you, specifically, what I think of you, but I'm worried you won't understand you're being insulted when I cave in to the impulse, so just pretend I insulted you outright. I'm gonna block you so I don't end up inflicting bodily harm on my poor computer next time I see one of your ridiculous comments.

I'm sorry, but this comes across as really nasty. Maybe we can give a little grace to new posters? I said some foolish things on here back in the day 😉 but most people were still nice to me. 

[Sneezyone]

30 minutes ago, Katy said:

That kid was somewhat local to me too. I wonder if our dads served together. 
 

I was never hurt by a family member. I was nearly kidnapped as a kid (a cop happened by and I waved) and the guy drove away.  I was harassed, grabbed, had adult strange men expose themselves to me a few times in middle school through college. I’ve had a foster child sexually abuse other kids in front of me faster than I could stop it. I still teach my kids something closer to Gavin de Becker’s Gift of Fear & Protecting the Gift than I do stranger danger.
 

Some strangers ARE dangerous. Some people test kids to see how they respond before grooming them. Many strangers are good people. Assuming you have neurotypical kids there’s a very good chance they are capable of understanding which strangers are fine to talk to and which should be avoided. And how to avoid being taken anywhere else. 

Probably not. Bundy was my dad’s age although I grew up in the same neighborhood/house my dad was raised in. I only heard stories. Still, everyone I knew was aware of perp vans, wagons and bugs. Stranger abduction was actually more common then than it is now. 🤷🏽‍♀️

Edited February 25, 2021 by Sneezyone

[Katy]

11 minutes ago, ktgrok said:

Thats a whole different thing, though. I can (and do) think sexual assault is endemic in our society and so common as to be nearly universal, and also think that children being randomly stolen off the street and sold into sexual slavery is very very rare. 

Personally, my assaults were 1. in highschool, in the darkroom of our photography class by a student I'd known for years, 2. at a party in college, the friend of my teaching assistant's brother. I was introduced to him hours earlier, he was basically a friend of a friend, so not really a stranger, and 3. by a guy who again was a friend of a friend, I'd met him once before. We were in a public place, he drugged me, and no one realized what was going on. 

None of those have anything to do with career politicians, or silicon valley billionaires, or whatever else was in those videos shared by the OP. And none would have been prevented by having an escort walking home from school. 

So to me, the idea that my child will be snatched from my front yard is not something I worry about. How to spot and prevent sexual assault, yes, I worry about that. A lot. Enough to daydream about a compound patrolled by rottweilers. Enough to have basically had a mental breakdown during the Kavenaugh trials. (nearly bought a shotgun and a rottie during that phase. still now ruling those out)

Even the kids snatched off of streets by strangers are murdered or imprisoned indefinitely by the person who snatched them. American children aren’t sold into sexual slavery in. the USA. That does happen in other countries and it has happened with underage immigrants but it doesn’t happen with people who aren’t more afraid of police than of their rapists. Some kids are seduced into it, but what happened in Taken doesn’t happen, ever. 

[Xahm]

My husband has been a police officer in our major metro area for right at ten years. He's helped find numerous missing juveniles, uncovered child prostitution, dealt with runaways, abusive parents, step parents, uncles, foster parents, etc. In all that time, there has been one case of a stranger abducting a child under 12. (I don't know whether there were any teen abductions). In the same time, I've seen several dozen "reports" of close calls on Facebook. They are mostly "I got a creepy feeling because an immigrant man/woman was being very friendly, so we ran away fast!" People who believe that all those "close calls" are really close calls are getting a very skewed view of reality. I still pray sometimes for the one little girl who was taken. My husband found her, living but understandably not talking, dumped in a parking lot not far from the run down apartment complex from which she was taken. She hadn't yet been reported missing. She was covered in injuries, most of which predated her kidnapping. The evil man who took her had not planned and stalked the prettiest child he could find; he had taken the most vulnerable child. False narratives can lead us to fear the most vulnerable rather than protecting them, which is why they stir me to anger.

[ktgrok]

12 minutes ago, Katy said:

Even the kids snatched off of streets by strangers are murdered or imprisoned indefinitely by the person who snatched them. American children aren’t sold into sexual slavery in. the USA. That does happen in other countries and it has happened with underage immigrants but it doesn’t happen with people who aren’t more afraid of police than of their rapists. Some kids are seduced into it, but what happened in Taken doesn’t happen, ever. 

Can you explain that to my mother so she stops sending me facebook memes about it? Sigh. 

[Katy]

55 minutes ago, ktgrok said:

Can you explain that to my mother so she stops sending me facebook memes about it? Sigh. 

I've tried explaining it to half a dozen little old ladies from my hometown, but they don't believe me, even the ones who are married to retired sheriffs.  When even their husbands shake their heads it's time to give up.

It might be easier to convince Gavin De Becker to write another book on calming the fears of grandparents with nothing to do but doom scroll.  "Here Mom, this is a must-read book on child safety.  You should know this for when the kids visit you."

[Katy]

I just went to Gavin de Becker's website and submitted a request under "Other" for him to write another book calming child trafficking hysteria.

Here's the form:  https://gdba.com/contact/

[Sneezyone]

4 minutes ago, Dreamergal said:

But this is not always possible everywhere in the world.  One of the things I am incredibly grateful in America is the ability to craft the life I want.

No, it’s not possible everywhere, but we don’t live everywhere else in the world either. We largely live, work, and visit places where the rampant, public assault of women and girls isn’t tolerated. Thats not to say that it isn’t an issue but that the threat doesn’t come primarily from powerful, political, Hollywood types. It’s much closer to home.

Edited February 25, 2021 by Sneezyone

[ktgrok]

23 minutes ago, Katy said:

I've tried explaining it to half a dozen little old ladies from my hometown, but they don't believe me, even the ones who are married to retired sheriffs.  When even their husbands shake their heads it's time to give up.

It might be easier to convince Gavin De Becker to write another book on calming the fears of grandparents with nothing to do but doom scroll.  "Here Mom, this is a must-read book on child safety.  You should know this for when the kids visit you."

This is genius!!!!! 

[bookbard]

It's interesting to explore your own biases. I realised that I was subconsciously worrying less about my daughter as she grew up, because she can talk, she can say what's happening. But there's been a lot of things on the news lately about teens and young women who are assaulted (on the news because it's by policitians). These are educated, clever, strong young women. It's not their fault, and while I can bring her up to be as strong and knowledgable as I can, it still takes a society where assault is completely unacceptable for her to be safe. 

[Sneezyone]

17 minutes ago, Dreamergal said:

There are hidden ways like Female Genital Mutilation and Child Marriage even in the West.

https://www.voanews.com/usa/female-genital-mutilation-occurs-united-states

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/child-marriage-united-states-donna-pollard/

That is the overarching thing for me. There are atrocities everywhere in the world. 

 I 100% agree about the political, powerful and Hollywood types not being the threat. That is a conspiracy theory used to exploit the empathy of people for a twisted political agenda.

 

Of course there are! Underage marriages to abusers are a problem. FGM wasn’t LEGALLY practiced here until that 2019 ruling tho and is still, largely, frowned upon. How one defines ‘at risk’, as in the article, is unknown to me and even the original 2012 report was based on estimates. Hopefully, we’ll get a better handle on/understanding of that in the years to come. The actual data is very old at this point.

Edited February 25, 2021 by Sneezyone

[Sneezyone]

11 minutes ago, bookbard said:

It's interesting to explore your own biases. I realised that I was subconsciously worrying less about my daughter as she grew up, because she can talk, she can say what's happening. But there's been a lot of things on the news lately about teens and young women who are assaulted (on the news because it's by policitians). These are educated, clever, strong young women. It's not their fault, and while I can bring her up to be as strong and knowledgable as I can, it still takes a society where assault is completely unacceptable for her to be safe. 

Which teens have been assaulted by politicians lately? Where did you see these credible reports? Have I been living under a rock? 

Edited February 25, 2021 by Sneezyone