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Posted

This is a quick, uninformed reaction (so sounding off, in the spirit of a sounding board) to your line about chemistry taking over her whole life. I hope nothing stressful or disagreeable takes over anyone's life. But a kid who loves chemistry, and lets chemistry take over their whole life or their whole education, doesn't sound like a bad outcome to me. It's at least easy to imagine her making a living as a grown-up. Or curing a disease!

But my bet, like I said not an informed one, is that doing well in an AP chemistry course would be pretty time consuming for a 13 year old.

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Posted (edited)
On 2/21/2021 at 9:01 AM, JHLWTM said:

It's February, and with all the planning threads for next year are popping up, I'm feeling behind.  I'm all muddled in my brain thinking through school for DD12.  I'm researching and thinking through several issues and options and would love any feedback, advice, perspective. Forgive me if my perspective or questions seem naive.

DD will be in 8th by age.

--DD asked to study chem in-depth next year. Her math skills are strong, but I don't have a sense for how strong they need to be to successfully tackle an honors high school chem or AP chem course. I'm considering Clover Valley Honors Chem or (less likely) AP Chem through PAH or intro chem at a CC.  Up til now, we've been pretty unstructured about science. She reads lots of science books on her own, and we do BFSU in a discussion based manner as a family. We're part way through the 3rd BFSU book, but likely won't finish it this year. She'll be bored if the class is too easy, but I don't want chem to take over her whole life.

--She has said that she wants to make sure she has "plenty of time" to devote to math. In practice, that means she wants to do AOPS Online Intermediate Alg followed by either Intermediate NT or Intermediate C&P. She's also recently discovered EMF and will want to continue to do that for fun on the side. If I can find her a problem-solving based math club (as opposed to a math circle where you hear random talks on different math topics), she'll probably want to do that.  How does Intermediate Alg compare (in terms of workload or level of difficulty) to Intro to Geo or Intro to Alg? We had been told that Intro to Geo was the hardest of AOPS's Intro courses, but DD had the hardest time with Intro to Alg B (she spent 2-3 hours / day on that one), whereas Intro to Geo seems relatively easy for her.

I've heard people complain about the Intermediate Algebra class -- I know @EmilyGF's son had trouble with the workload. And I know he's a very strong student, so I'd take that input seriously. 

On the other hand, I'm not sure if that class had an Alcumus component when he took it, and it looks like they removed it. Perhaps she'll chime in on what he found difficult. 

I'm a little concerned that she had so much trouble with Introductory Algebra B. Do you know if there's anything conceptual she had trouble with? I've also heard that people have more trouble with geometry on average. 

 

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--DD is currently completing AOPS Online Intro to Geo. She wants to do Intro to NT over the summer. After that, she will have completed the Intro series. Her net grade each week (average grade across all the domains - alcumus, challenge, writing, participation) is all blue bars, though there will be occasional green bars in the sub-domains. Will her math skills be strong enough for Clover Valley Honors Chem, PAH AP Chem, or an intro chem course through a community college?

--What are the downsides to doing an Honors high school chem (like Clover Valley) or AP chem in 8th grade? Is it best to do an intro chem class (like Clover Valley Honors chem) before tackling AP Chem? Should I just punt formal chem to high school and continue casual science through BFSU and reading books in 8th?

To me, the downsides to jumping into high school chem might be that she learns the material but doesn't get a feeling for the subject, if that makes sense? I took chemistry and physics all the way up in high school, and it's safe to say that I did NOT learn them properly. Knowing what I know about how people learn, I would say that immersing me in the ideas (which it sounds like you're doing a stellar job of, if you're using BFSU) would probably just as worthwhile as jumping into the chemistry content, especially if there isn't really anything she's going to DO with the chemistry after she's done. Or are there things she can imagine using it for sometime soon? 

 

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--I started another thread with this question, but if we do Clover Valley, any thoughts on parent-graded vs. teacher-led option? How much work is Clover Valley Honors chem for a mathy kid?

--I still want her to have time for the other stuff: (and she really enjoys all of these, with the exception of WWS which is "ok" according to her)

  • writing -probably WWS - finish up book2, then start book3
  • literature -probably read 4-5 works in depth with me, also looking at Windows to the World and Excellence in Lit - Introduction. It seems they serve separate functions - WWS is a composition course, WttW and EiL are lit analysis. Would it be overkill to do both WWS and WttW/EiL? Should I ditch a formal lit course and just read and discuss books with her? The problem with that is that if I don't have some structure, I have a hard time keeping up with the reading and discussing. We used MP lit guides this year, and while they felt formulaic, they did the job.
  • history -probably 6 titles from the Lucent World History series or similar series focusing on WW1, WW2, Russian Revolution, Chinese Communist Revolution and Cultural Revolution, Civil Rights Movement. 
  • foreign languages - she also really wants to learn spanish (we'll probably do Homeschool Spanish Academy) and arabic (she'll probably learn casually through Duolingo), and she wants to keep up with chinese (chinese school 2 hours a week, homework isn't terrible - maybe 15 min / day, occasionally heavier 30 min / day).
  • She wants to continue piano (she  practices ~30- 45 min/day)

--Don't know what next year will look like with regard to in person opportunities, but she misses seeing people (if you've read my previous posts, she is, or was, my recalcitrant introvert, so this feels like a minor miracle). If things open up, that would probably mean youth group, and either swimming or running club, plus the chinese school.

--She has voluntarily taken on more work and learning for herself in multiple areas this year. She went through GSWS (Getting Started with Spanish) on her own in the fall, then started Duolingo for both Spanish and Arabic. She asked to do additional Chinese on top of her chinese class, and is self-teaching through the chinese pseudo-equivalent of McGuffey's Reader. She asked for more math and works through an AMC8 or 10 practice test once a week as part of a math club. She started Elements of Mathematics on her own. She started a self paced web dev course online. She's also read - a ton.  Most importantly - she's super relaxed and happy this year - yea! (see my "Why is my 11 Year old so moody" thread) 

It sounds like doing lots of academics and having a chill schedule is working for her. So it sounds like she knows how to make good choices for herself -- I'd take that as signal to pay a lot of attention to her ideas.  

I don't know if any of this is helpful 🙂 . My kiddos are younger, so I don't have personal experience with any of this stuff except AoPS. But I thought I'd chime in. I'm glad your DD is doing well this hard year! 

Edited by Not_a_Number
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Posted

My son thought that AoPS Intermediate Algebra was easier that Geometry. He probably spent 1hour per day. There is no Alcumus required for the class, but we chose to do Alcumus in addition.

I think that an AP class is doable if it is a subject she is passionate about. My ds13 is taking AP Comp Sci A this year and is doing well. Make sure she has the math background for the Chem class, I think that AP Chem has Algebra 2 as a prerequisite. So you may want to start with the high school Chem class. Ds is taking algebra base physics and calculus this year and is planning to take AP physics c or CC physics, not sure yet. We had a hard time finding a test location this year, so we may opt for CC.
 

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Posted
10 hours ago, JHLWTM said:

--DD asked to study chem in-depth next year. Her math skills are strong, but I don't have a sense for how strong they need to be to successfully tackle an honors high school chem or AP chem course. I'm considering ... (less likely) AP Chem through PAH or intro chem at a CC.  Up til now, we've been pretty unstructured about science. She reads lots of science books on her own, and we do BFSU in a discussion based manner as a family. We're part way through the 3rd BFSU book, but likely won't finish it this year. She'll be bored if the class is too easy, but I don't want chem to take over her whole life.

--She has said that she wants to make sure she has "plenty of time" to devote to math. In practice, that means she wants to do AOPS Online Intermediate Alg followed by either Intermediate NT or Intermediate C&P. ... If I can find her a problem-solving based math club (as opposed to a math circle where you hear random talks on different math topics), she'll probably want to do that.  

--DD is currently completing AOPS Online Intro to Geo. She wants to do Intro to NT over the summer. After that, she will have completed the Intro series. Her net grade each week (average grade across all the domains - alcumus, challenge, writing, participation) is all blue bars, though there will be occasional green bars in the sub-domains. Will her math skills be strong enough for Clover Valley Honors Chem, PAH AP Chem, or an intro chem course through a community college?

--What are the downsides to ... AP chem in 8th grade? Is it best to do an intro chem class (like Clover Valley Honors chem) before tackling AP Chem? Should I just punt formal chem to high school and continue casual science through BFSU and reading books in 8th?

 

If she's an AoPS kid who has taken algebra, then she's fine for AP chemistry.  My dd went from BFSU in 8th grade to AP chem in 9th grade with no problems.  (She enjoyed the class, learned a lot, and scored a 5.)  She learned the octet rule and some other basic chem in BFSU, but honestly I don't think it really mattered.  I think beyond strong math skills (basically logs for pH), there isn't a science prereq for AP chemistry at PAH.  The most important prereq is excellent EF skills, a willingness to ask questions, knowing how to study, and a desire to learn.  

I personally think all the intermediate AoPS books are a big step up in difficulty from the intro books, but as @Marie.Sd points out, YMMV.    

I will tell you that many people will warn against taking an AP class in 8th grade because there is a College Board rule that states you can't put an AP on a transcript for a class taken in 8th grade.  I disagree, but there it is.  

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Posted
10 hours ago, JHLWTM said:

 

--She has said that she wants to make sure she has "plenty of time" to devote to math. In practice, that means she wants to do AOPS Online Intermediate Alg followed by either Intermediate NT or Intermediate C&P. She's also recently discovered EMF and will want to continue to do that for fun on the side. If I can find her a problem-solving based math club (as opposed to a math circle where you hear random talks on different math topics), she'll probably want to do that.  How does Intermediate Alg compare (in terms of workload or level of difficulty) to Intro to Geo or Intro to Alg? We had been told that Intro to Geo was the hardest of AOPS's Intro courses, but DD had the hardest time with Intro to Alg B (she spent 2-3 hours / day on that one), whereas Intro to Geo seems relatively easy for her.

 

(I meant to address the above.)

In 8th grade she can still participate in MathCounts, so I would definitely get her onto a homeschool team.  They are a terrific organization and homeschool friendly.  And friendly in general.  She can also participate on your local ARML team.  It's basically MathCounts for high school, but younger students can compete too.  

Don't forget to sign her up for AMC 8 and AMC 10 next year.  

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Posted

Here's the prereq for AP chem at PAH:

"Eligibility Requirements: My class is open to 9th – 12th grade students, ages 14 – 18, who have completed one year of high school chemistry and Algebra II. Students must be self-disciplined, well-organized, and able to schedule a minimum of 10 – 12 hours a week for the course, not including lab work. (Note: The first-year chemistry requirement can be waived for students who have exceptionally strong math skills and the ability to apply math to solve complex problems.)"

My dd didn't have any high school level chemistry, except what was taught in BFSU vol. 3, and I doubt she retained much of that.  

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Posted (edited)

Whether it's too much or not will depend on your student and how much time they want to spend on school.  We are doing AP Chem at home, loosely following a syllabus that we found online.  In 8th grade, we did one semester of Life of Fred physics and one of chemistry as a fun way to do physical science, and then we started AP in 9th grade.  It is, as I remembered from college, basically a math class.  There is some work with naming conventions and of course the student needs to understand what is going on chemically in order to set up the equations, but as my student works through the problems in the study guide, 90% of them are numeric answers.  My student is also doing AoPS Int. Algebra (at home, no online component), but we do it entirely on our own and have chosen to do it over 1.5 years because we simultaneously do LOF math to get a different perspective and build in review. 

It's working for my student, but it definitely a lot of math.   

I'm generally not going to get in the way of a student with academic goals.  Alternatively, 8th grade is sort of the last chance to easily study random topics without needing to figure out how you want to turn it into a high school credit.   It looks like your daughter could do the AP chemistry, but she might consider whether there is a specific area of chem that she'd rather explore before she has to take the mathy regular class, or, for that matter, whether she needs the background from regular chem to be able to learn whatever it is that she's interested in.  

Edited by Clemsondana
because if you sub 'online' for 'on our own' it changes the meaning...
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Posted
22 hours ago, Not_a_Number said:

I've heard people complain about the Intermediate Algebra class -- I know @EmilyGF's son had trouble with the workload. And having just had him in my precalculus class, he's a very strong student, so I'd take that input seriously. 

On the other hand, I'm not sure if that class had an Alcumus component when he took it, and it looks like they removed it. Perhaps she'll chime in on what he found difficult. 

I'm a little concerned that she had so much trouble with Introductory Algebra B. Do you know if there's anything conceptual she had trouble with? I've also heard that people have more trouble with geometry on average

Thanks, @Not_a_Number.

For Intro to Alg B, she said she didn’t feel it was necessarily conceptually difficult. The main area of difficulty she identified was that you had to be very detail oriented - if you missed one sign, or failed to transcribe one sign correctly, it messed everything up. I just went to find the score report for Intro to Alg B and .... somehow I don’t have it! Agh! I don’t know how I don’t have a record as I’m good about record keeping.  ( I hope this doesn’t come back to bite me for high school transcripts.) I did find her C and P report and she was not all blue bars there - she had more trouble in week 7 (Probability and Arithmetic) and week 12 (challenging problems) - green bars. She said that Geo is more straightforward, because it’s about figuring out how to do the problem, then once you figure out your strategy, the implementation of the strategy isn’t tedious.

Based on what you mentioned about Intermediate Algebra, I’m going to have her review some Intro to Alg this summer to make sure the concepts are solid - I may have her do some alcumus, or some of the textbook problems from each chapter, so we can find any potential points of weakness.

22 hours ago, Not_a_Number said:

downsides to jumping into high school chem might be that she learns the material but doesn't get a feeling for the subject,

Agree. There isn’t much practical utility to doing high school level chem for her right now. She is conceptually interested, and she will probably enjoy the math, but there isn’t any particular need to rush to high school stuff. I’d let her do it this year if a) she was strongly interested, or b) it somehow provided a social outlet (i.e. there were peers doing it). She’s expressed repeated strong interest, but she doesn’t really know what it means to do a high school / college chem course. I ordered a used copy of the honors chem textbook so we can look through it together and she can have a better sense of whether that’s something she’d like to pursue.

 

22 hours ago, Not_a_Number said:

sounds like doing lots of academics and having a chill schedule is working for her. So it sounds like she knows how to make good choices for herself -- I'd take that as signal to pay a lot of attention to her ideas

This was a great reminder for me! I had forgotten that I’d made this year relatively “light” for both kids with the goal of giving them plenty of free time to pursue their own interests (also, COVID, and not wanting to add too much academic stress to a potentially stressful year). You’re right - she’s made great choices for herself and has really used her free time well. She’s been able to discover some new interests. 

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Posted
45 minutes ago, JHLWTM said:

I just went to find the score report for Intro to Alg B and .... somehow I don’t have it! Agh! I don’t know how I don’t have a record as I’m good about record keeping.  ( I hope this doesn’t come back to bite me for high school transcripts.) I did find her C and P report and she was not all blue bars there - she had more trouble in week 7 (Probability and Arithmetic) and week 12 (challenging problems) - green bars

I'll reply to the rest of your post when I'm not in the middle of the school day... but you should write to them and ask for the report again! I'm sure it's all on their servers. I've had really old classes reopened to write recommendations before. 

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Posted
On 2/21/2021 at 11:17 AM, UHP said:

 But a kid who loves chemistry, and lets chemistry take over their whole life or their whole education, doesn't sound like a bad outcome to me.

That's true!

On 2/21/2021 at 6:54 PM, daijobu said:

If she's an AoPS kid who has taken algebra, then she's fine for AP chemistry.  My dd went from BFSU in 8th grade to AP chem in 9th grade with no problems.  (She enjoyed the class, learned a lot, and scored a 5.)  She learned the octet rule and some other basic chem in BFSU, but honestly I don't think it really mattered.  I think beyond strong math skills (basically logs for pH), there isn't a science prereq for AP chemistry at PAH.  The most important prereq is excellent EF skills, a willingness to ask questions, knowing how to study, and a desire to learn.  

I personally think all the intermediate AoPS books are a big step up in difficulty from the intro books, but as @Marie.Sd points out, YMMV.    

I will tell you that many people will warn against taking an AP class in 8th grade because there is a College Board rule that states you can't put an AP on a transcript for a class taken in 8th grade.  I disagree, but there it is.  

thanks, @daijobu. Your feedback on PAH AP Chem is really helpful. Re: the College Board, I had heard that you can get a score report for scores older than 4 years, but you have to make a special request? https://apstudents.collegeboard.org/sending-scores

 

 

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Posted
On 2/21/2021 at 6:57 PM, daijobu said:

In 8th grade she can still participate in MathCounts, so I would definitely get her onto a homeschool team.  They are a terrific organization and homeschool friendly.  And friendly in general.  She can also participate on your local ARML team.  It's basically MathCounts for high school, but younger students can compete too.  

Don't forget to sign her up for AMC 8 and AMC 10 next year.  

We will definitely look into MathCounts for next year. She did it this year for the first time, and though it was online, still enjoyed it.

10 hours ago, Clemsondana said:

Whether it's too much or not will depend on your student and how much time they want to spend on school. 

I'm generally not going to get in the way of a student with academic goals.  Alternatively, 8th grade is sort of the last chance to easily study random topics without needing to figure out how you want to turn it into a high school credit. 

That's true! There is no particular urgency for an accelerated science sequence, unless it's an area of strong interest for the child. DD also told me today that she really wants to learn Ham radio and get a ham radio license, which gave me the idea that maybe we could create a year of science around ham radio - learn about the physics of electricity, waves, etc.; learn about wireless communication technologies, etc. That could be really fun! And something that might be hard to do in high school.

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Posted
7 hours ago, Not_a_Number said:

I'll reply to the rest of your post when I'm not in the middle of the school day... but you should write to them and ask for the report again! I'm sure it's all on their servers. I've had really old classes reopened to write recommendations before. 

Thank you! I didn't know you could ask for the report. I emailed them and they sent me the link for the report request.

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Posted

I taught freshman chemistry for science and engineering majors at a selective 4-year college. Our students were over-prepared mathematically, since 95% were in calculus or above.   

Word problem-solving skills were the biggest difficulty for our weaker students.   Good skills with word problems are far more important than having seen advanced math. AoPS more than fulfills that requirement.

The most commonly used math skill in general chemistry is unit-factor conversions, taught in Beast Academy 5.  The most advanced math topics needed were solving quadratic equations, using natural and base 10 logarithms and making and interpreting graphs.  We sometimes used sine and tangent functions (maybe once a year and not every year) but knowing the triangle definitions and calculating on a calculator were the extent of that.  Nothing difficult to pick up in a few minutes if you haven't had trig. 

Some skill with spreadsheets is useful if the instructor favors labs with quantitative results. (in an online setting, this would be analysis of data provided by the instructor.)

She sounds mathematically ready for either honors high school chemistry or AP.  My only concern about AP comes from my experience with AP physics.  I took it while taking AP calculus and  learned a lot of multivariable calculus, but missed basic electricity and magnetism concepts.  A "Conceptual Chemistry" course might be an alternative, but she sounds like she would need the college version of conceptual chemistry, which is more of a science for non-science majors course.  She might still enjoy AP more, since she's a real math-lover.

 

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Posted (edited)
42 minutes ago, Alice Lamb said:

I taught freshman chemistry for science and engineering majors at a selective 4-year college. Our students were over-prepared mathematically, since 95% were in calculus or above.   

Word problem-solving skills were the biggest difficulty for our weaker students.   Good skills with word problems are far more important than having seen advanced math. AoPS more than fulfills that requirement.

I would argue that a kid who can't do word problems isn't really doing advanced math. I had many kids who were taking calculus who would be completely incapable of tackling word problems. Yes, they got "credit" for calculus, but I would argue that they didn't really learn calculus. Frankly, they had never learned algebra properly. 

Edited by Not_a_Number
Posted
2 minutes ago, EmilyGF said:

Hi all, @JHLWTM @Not_a_Numbermy son had a hard time with Intermediate Algebra back when it had the Alcumus component. He said the sets were easy, the Alcumus oppressive. I think the Alcumus part has since been removed, so it likely wouldn't be that bad. 

Thanks!! I thought that was the case, but I wasn't sure. I'm glad they removed the Alcumus -- it just seems like too much on an intermediate course. 

Was the Alcumus actually hard or just tricky in an annoying way? 

Posted
On 2/21/2021 at 6:01 AM, WTM said:

 

--What are the downsides to doing an Honors high school chem (like Clover Valley) or AP chem in 8th grade? Is it best to do an intro chem class (like Clover Valley Honors chem) before tackling AP Chem? Should I just punt formal chem to high school and continue casual science through BFSU and reading books in 8th?

 

Just chiming in with our experience -- my mathy son took Clover Valley Hon Chem in 8th and had a fantastic year.  What it doesn't really have is much of the social aspect -- I think there are class "office hours" but he never went to those. He had enough math, I'm assuming, since the math never really gave him an issue.  I still think the set up was better for him than the AP Chem through PAH, though that is a highly recommended program as well.  He is currently self-studying for the AP chem exam, as the Hon Chem through Clover Valley covers almost all the same material.  

One should know that it is a full courseload.  It and math (AOPS) were the primary focus for my son last year -- together they took up usually four hours a day.   He would often do the labs on the weekends to give himself breathing space.   He is now taking her Intro to Organic Chem because he enjoyed the class so much, and especially appreciated the fact that her classes are so well organized.  He likes predictability, and there are absolutely no surprises in her class:)   

I don't know that there are any downsides to taking high school chem in middle, unless the more casual approach is working for you.  It was not working for my son -- he gets too much anxiety when things are too loose, and prefers to have deadlines to work towards and homework to turn in.  He's probably going to just take a turn through all the AP Sciences year by year (chem test in ninth, AP Bio in 10th, AP physics in 11th) and do a college level of one of those his 12th grade year.  So he hasn't really gotten too far ahead by starting early.  

My daughter loved taking it more casually in middle school.  She read a ton and took a great course in zoology and an easier biology class.  It suited her. 

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Posted (edited)
On 2/21/2021 at 6:01 AM, WTM said:

--She has said that she wants to make sure she has "plenty of time" to devote to math. In practice, that means she wants to do AOPS Online Intermediate Alg followed by either Intermediate NT or Intermediate C&P. She's also recently discovered EMF and will want to continue to do that for fun on the side. If I can find her a problem-solving based math club (as opposed to a math circle where you hear random talks on different math topics), she'll probably want to do that.  How does Intermediate Alg compare (in terms of workload or level of difficulty) to Intro to Geo or Intro to Alg? We had been told that Intro to Geo was the hardest of AOPS's Intro courses, but DD had the hardest time with Intro to Alg B (she spent 2-3 hours / day on that one), whereas Intro to Geo seems relatively easy for her.

My Ds has taken all the AoPS Intro and Intermediate class except for Olympiad Geo. When he took the first Intermediate class it seem like a huge jump. I would have to say that my ds's workload more than doubled with the Intermediate classes. The writing problems took especially long. I would also suggest that your daughter take Intermediate C&P first then NT, C&P has a text book. We had to find a college text book for ds to use for NT. AoPS has no text book for NT class.

Edited by SDMomof3
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Posted
25 minutes ago, SDMomof3 said:

My Ds has taken all the AoPS Intro and Intermediate class except for Olympiad Geo. When he took the first Intermediate class it seem like a huge jump. I would have to say that my ds's workload more than doubled with the Intermediate classes. The writing problems took especially long. I would also suggest that your daughter take Intermediate C&P first then NT, C&P has a text book. We had to find a college text book for ds to use for NT. AoPS has no text book for NT class.

Thank you for this input, @SDMomof3. Did you mean that you suggest taking Intermediate C&P before Intermediate Algebra, or before Intermediate NT? Would it seem reasonable to do Intermediate Algebra followed by either Intermediate C&P OR Pre-calculus, then Intermediate NT?

Posted
3 minutes ago, WTM said:

Thank you for this input, @SDMomof3. Did you mean that you suggest taking Intermediate C&P before Intermediate Algebra, or before Intermediate NT? Would it seem reasonable to do Intermediate Algebra followed by either Intermediate C&P OR Pre-calculus, then Intermediate NT?

The order that my son took the classes were Intermediate Algebra, Pre-calc, Intermediate C&P, Intermediate NT, then Calculus. But he told me that Calculus was easier for him than Intermediate NT. NT was definitely the hardest class my son took.

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Posted
Just now, SDMomof3 said:

The order that my son took the classes were Intermediate Algebra, Pre-calc, Intermediate C&P, Intermediate NT, then Calculus. But he told me that Calculus was easier for him than Intermediate NT. NT was definitely the hardest class my son took.

It has that reputation. I've never taught that one (I've taught everything else on that list), so I can't comment personally. 

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Posted
Just now, Not_a_Number said:

It has that reputation. I've never taught that one (I've taught everything else on that list), so I can't comment personally. 

I would say that Intermediate NT definitely lives up to the reputation. It is a step up from the other Intermediate classes. NT took double the time of the other Intermediate class. I never saw ds so frustrated as when he took NT.

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Posted
1 minute ago, SDMomof3 said:

I would say that Intermediate NT definitely lives up to the reputation. It is a step up from the other Intermediate classes. NT took double the time of the other Intermediate class. I never saw ds so frustrated as when he took NT.

How did the other ones compare? 

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Posted

My son said that in terms of difficulty he would rank them as

1.  Intermediate Alg

2. Pre-calc, Intermediate C&P

3. Calc

Intermediate Alg was the easiest. The writing problems were the most difficult part of C&P. He had to spend more time on the writing problem for Intermediate C&P than Pre-calc, but the concepts and problems were easier than in Pre-calc. The linear algebra part of Pre-calc was what made the class hard. He also said that he found trigonometric substitution difficult, along with Improper Integrals. 

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Posted
7 hours ago, SDMomof3 said:

The linear algebra part of Pre-calc was what made the class hard. 

Interesting! When I poll, kids invariably like linear algebra better than complex numbers. They are ok with 2D but find 3D hard.

Posted
2 hours ago, Not_a_Number said:

Interesting! When I poll, kids invariably like linear algebra better than complex numbers. They are ok with 2D but find 3D hard.

That's interesting, but it makes sense. I am assuming that for most of students it was their first exposure to complex numbers. My son went into the class having worked with complex numbers for a year. He earned about complex numbers in his Circuits Lab for Science Olympiad. So for him most of it was review.

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Posted
Just now, SDMomof3 said:

That's interesting, but it makes sense. I am assuming that for most of students it was their first exposure to complex numbers. My son went into the class having worked with complex numbers for a year. He earned about complex numbers in his Circuits Lab for Science Olympiad. So for him most of it was review.

Most people don’t see exponential form before the class.

Posted
11 hours ago, SDMomof3 said:

That's interesting, but it makes sense. I am assuming that for most of students it was their first exposure to complex numbers. My son went into the class having worked with complex numbers for a year. He earned about complex numbers in his Circuits Lab for Science Olympiad. So for him most of it was review.

I was looking at Science Olympiad because of the classes that S is now taking with those medal winners. How did your DS get involved with a team? I only saw SD school teams; no homeschool teams. And thank you for all of this AoPS advice. I do remember many many moons ago when Quark and Lewelma's uber genius sons were taking Intermediate NT and they too struggled with that course, so it put the fear of G-d in me way back when Sacha was barely out of diapers. 😆

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Posted
12 minutes ago, SeaConquest said:

I was looking at Science Olympiad because of the classes that S is now taking with those medal winners. How did your DS get involved with a team? I only saw SD school teams; no homeschool teams. And thank you for all of this AoPS advice. I do remember many many moons ago when Quark and Lewelma's uber genius sons were taking Intermediate NT and they too struggled with that course, so it put the fear of G-d in me way back when Sacha was barely out of diapers. 😆

I really need to teach this class to see what it's all about, lol. Maybe I'll struggle to teach it!! 

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Posted
13 hours ago, SeaConquest said:

I was looking at Science Olympiad because of the classes that S is now taking with those medal winners. How did your DS get involved with a team? I only saw SD school teams; no homeschool teams. And thank you for all of this AoPS advice. I do remember many many moons ago when Quark and Lewelma's uber genius sons were taking Intermediate NT and they too struggled with that course, so it put the fear of G-d in me way back when Sacha was barely out of diapers. 😆

He was part of a school team. They were fine with him on the team because his sister(medal winner) was volunteering, teaching 2 events.

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Posted
9 minutes ago, SDMomof3 said:

He was part of a school team. They were fine with him on the team because his sister(medal winner) was volunteering, teaching 2 events.

That's great. I wish I knew how to get S involved. Maybe he can now with SOHS. I hadn't thought of that. I will ask. Thanks for stirring the wheels in my head. 😄

Posted
1 hour ago, SeaConquest said:

That's great. I wish I knew how to get S involved. Maybe he can now with SOHS. I hadn't thought of that. I will ask. Thanks for stirring the wheels in my head. 😄

You would not be able to do SO until you are no longer with your charter. If you are enrolled in a public or private school, you must participate on a team sponsored by your school. School teams are strictly prohibited from taking students who are enrolled elsewhere.

Privately homeschooled students may only participate on the public school team for the school they would normally be districted to attend OR they may form their own homeschool team but you may not have students from more than 2 bordering counties participating. Homeschool teams may not have any students who are public, private or virtual.  

My privately homeschooled son was able to do this last year because I was willing to volunteer to coach. I coached two events and chaperoned a 3rd, and that was a lot of work. The material you have to be teaching at the middle school event level is at least AP level. I can tell you from experience that if you are trying to field a full team it means for 23 events for 15 students with 2 students per event. Every student has to take 3 events and one has to take 4. Students who were doing well in their events were putting in a solid amount of time every week studying at least an hour to an hour and a half a day on top of weekly practice sessions. I would say I was putting on average of 10 hours a week of my own time. I was developing material for a new SO event completely from scratch so I was doing a lot of research.

Cyber/Virtual school teams can be formed, but I'm not sure how truly feasible this really is in practice though. The test only events are possible to prep for virtually, but any build or lab based events really need to be in person for practice with partner. From the way, the rules are written, it looks like you would have to be exclusively enrolled at said school similiar to the restrictions on school teams I mentioned above.

 

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Posted
11 minutes ago, calbear said:

You would not be able to do SO until you are no longer with your charter. If you are enrolled in a public or private school, you must participate on a team sponsored by your school. School teams are strictly prohibited from taking students who are enrolled elsewhere.

This is why we are not participating this year.

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Posted (edited)

Also you should be aware that if you are petitioning to be on your local school team that they are not required at all to allow you to join. That is completely at the discretion of the principal and the head coaches. It has made all the difference that I was volunteering to coach, and that my students placed well at the invitational in the brand new event against the powerhouse schools - ones who have won at state and national SO. 


 

Edited by calbear
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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, calbear said:

You would not be able to do SO until you are no longer with your charter. If you are enrolled in a public or private school, you must participate on a team sponsored by your school. School teams are strictly prohibited from taking students who are enrolled elsewhere.

Privately homeschooled students may only participate on the public school team for the school they would normally be districted to attend OR they may form their own homeschool team but you may not have students from more than 2 bordering counties participating. Homeschool teams may not have any students who are public, private or virtual.  

My privately homeschooled son was able to do this last year because I was willing to volunteer to coach. I coached two events and chaperoned a 3rd, and that was a lot of work. The material you have to be teaching at the middle school event level is at least AP level. I can tell you from experience that if you are trying to field a full team it means for 23 events for 15 students with 2 students per event. Every student has to take 3 events and one has to take 4. Students who were doing well in their events were putting in a solid amount of time every week studying at least an hour to an hour and a half a day on top of weekly practice sessions. I would say I was putting on average of 10 hours a week of my own time. I was developing material for a new SO event completely from scratch so I was doing a lot of research.

Cyber/Virtual school teams can be formed, but I'm not sure how truly feasible this really is in practice though. The test only events are possible to prep for virtually, but any build or lab based events really need to be in person for practice with partner. From the way, the rules are written, it looks like you would have to be exclusively enrolled at said school similiar to the restrictions on school teams I mentioned above.

 

Well, so much for that idea. Thanks for sharing your experience too re coaching a team. I definitely won't have that much time to volunteer since I am going to start working FT again. I am not even sure if he is going to be able to stay with his current charter too much longer because they don't seem to know what to do with him re high school (transcript issues, running out of classes to stay enrolled, etc.). We can hopefully make it work for 7th, but even 8th grade is starting to look iffy, so we may have to get in the lottery at a different charter. His educational facilitator and the HS counselor are meeting with the charter board to try to advocate for kids like him. SDMomof3's son is likely facing similar issues, so hopefully he will pave the way for S. 🙂  

Edited by SeaConquest

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