What say you about just reading books for history and science?

[Meadowlark]

I’m strongly considering just scrapping all of our moving parts, and just devouring nonfiction books for science and history AND reading quality fiction as our reading “program”. Up until 6th grade that is. What do you think about that idea? Will I be ruining my kids for good? Any tips on how to make it work?

Edited February 20, 2021 by Meadowlark
Forgot something

[Gobblygook]

I think it sounds like a great idea. Add in some discussion, documentaries, if you like, and you’d be fine! 

[Lori D.]

I say "go for it." 😄 

We did NO formal program for science or history until 9th grade. Just "real/living" books (both), hands-on activities & kits (science), educational videos and documentaries (both), and field trips (both) -- and lots of discussion. That worked fabulously here.

We did NO formal literature program except for grades 8-9 for one DS and grades 7-9 for the other. Just read wonderful books and VERY informally shared questions or observations from the books as we saw things. A few times, as we got interested in something that came up in a book, we would explore bunny trails about it. No formal literature programs for high school -- we read, analyzed, discussed and wrote about quality literature all through high schoolAgain, that worked fabulously here.

ETA: And in case you want results:

We have 2 fully-functioning, working adult DSs. One went on and took an intensive (10-hr/day, 4-week) EMT course and earned his national certification, and has enjoyed learning a lot about natural science and fire behavior science in his job as a wildland firefighter. The other is finishing up his second Bachelor's degree, this time in Mechanical Engineering (with a 3.9 GPA).

Both have an understanding of History in order to get references in literature and films, and to understand how History informs Current Events and things going on politically around the world.

Conclusion: reading and discussing works as learning tool. 😉 

Edited February 20, 2021 by Lori D.

[Hadley]

This is what I did with my only.  In elementary, for the content subjects, we read.  And we read.  And we read.  I learned a ton!  He seamlessly transitioned into more traditional textbook programs for history and science as he approached middle school.

It served us well. My one student is heading to Cornell in the fall😊.  I’d encourage you to go for it, and enjoy learning with your littles.  The added benefit to this approach is all of the wonderful memories you will make along the way.

Edited February 20, 2021 by Hadley

[Lori D.]

1 hour ago, Meadowlark said:

Any tips on how to make it work?

Tips for how to make it work...

For Science and History:
I would spend a few weeks in the summer pulling together a list of topics to cover that year for Science, and for History, come up with a Master list of resources under each sub-topic heading that I could refer to a week or so before we were ready to move on to the next topic during the school year, to make sure I had the books, and any need supplies for activities. And to also plan for time that week in the schedule to go out to museums or historic sites or to special activities. Once I had the pile of books and supplies ready for the next few weeks, we would pull the "next thing" on the master list out of the crate, and "do the next page(s)" of the book(s), or do an activity, or watch the documentary or educational video. Pretty much "open and go" from the Master list.

For Literature:
I pulled together Master lists of quality books at their reading level (and above reading level for our read-alouds), from various book list ideas, plus ideas from WTM threads, and from high quality books from my own childhood that I wanted to share with them.

Some titles I would place in the book basket for them to choose from for the required reading during the school day.

Others we did as our together-aloud buddy style reading ("you read a page, I read a page"), which allowed us to enjoy great books together, practiced fluid aloud reading skills, allowed us to discuss in the moment, and to make great memories together.

I also did read-alouds of books above their reading level all the way up through middle school.

In high school we did much of our literature aloud together, and analyzed, discussed together, and they would write about some of the works. Best memories of homeschooling ever! 😄 

[smfmommy]

My oldest pretty much did this throughout her homeschool career for history.  She loves history, so she devoured many books, a few textbooks and encyclopedias,. It is pretty much our MO for elementary school for all my kids.   I didn't make a plan, we just read interesting things and watch interesting videos.  Although 2 years ago we did read all the American history books I had on my shelves in roughly chronological order.  

My oldest is getting a bachelor's in early education right now and doing just fine in all her classes. 

You have my permission to homeschool using "only" good books.  :-)

[Terabith]

Absolutely awesome, at least through elementary and for most kids through middle school.

I do think some more formal study is useful for science especially in high school.  

[eternallytired]

When my kids were younger, I'd do six-week units on different topics that interested them.  So I pulled together books and videos and hands-on stuff for plate tectonics and volcanoes, knights and castles, the science of candy...  We only had one unit going at a time, so that limited how much time I had to spend researching and preparing materials.

Our school district has a BrainPop subscription for students in town which I shamelessly make use of, as well.  BrainPop (and BrainPop Jr.) has short videos about just about everything under the sun.  A couple days a week, I'd let my kids each pick three videos that looked interesting to them.  I've been amazed at the number of times they still refer back to things they've learned from BrainPop.

I give my kids the ITBS annually just out of curiosity, and they've always scored above average on both the social studies and science sections despite never having done a formal program before this year.  (My older two are officially 6th and 5th graders now, and I wanted to do something formal in middle school for a comprehensive overview before they get to high school and dig down into particular topics, since I feel like there are certain topics we've kinda skipped over thus far because they didn't seem especially enthralling.)

ETA: I've always done grammar/writing/mechanics, but I've not yet done a formal reading program.  I have always read aloud to the kids, and they get time before bed each night to read whatever they want.  This year for middle school I added Family Book Club, where I assign a certain number of pages of whatever book we're on each week and we sit around snacking and talking about it on Friday morning.

Edited February 21, 2021 by eternallytired

[4atHome]

9 hours ago, Lori D. said:

Others we did as our together-aloud buddy style reading ("you read a page, I read a page"),

I feel so dumb that this never occurred to me.  I read-aloud to all my kids.  Separately, I also make my reluctant reader ds9 read aloud to me. But never thought of alternating pages to make it easier for him.  He's actually doing really well now, excitedly reading aloud The Lion Witch & Wardrobe tonight, but I'll remember this method when he is dragging his feet.

[MeaganS]

Yes. This is exactly what we do. I ask the kids before we go to the library if they are interested in any particular subject. If so I find books on that. If not, I choose at random some non-fiction for them to read as part of their daily school schedule. They also watch various science/history shows (Magic School Bus, Liberty's Kids, Zula Patrol, Planet Earth, etc.) and play games that teach those topics, like Adventure Academy and Stack the States. We have lots of STEM toys for them to play with and discuss science topics as a family. They listen to many audiobooks, including SOTW as well as podcasts like Wow In the World. And we go to museums and historical sites. They have weather-monitoring clocks in their room so they can notice patterns in weather data. And starting this year we have a dedicated raised bed garden for each girl and they are completely in charge of planning and taking care of it, including keeping a garden journal and researching about how to take care of their plants.

I do plan on doing a more formal study in high school, but so far I feel like this is really working for us. They are curious and often surprise adults with how much they know. When I write it all down like that above, it sounds like a lot, but most of that is just day to day life and being a deliberate homeschooler and isn't something I stress about.

[Lori D.]

8 hours ago, 4atHome said:

I feel so dumb that this never occurred to me.  I read-aloud to all my kids.  Separately, I also make my reluctant reader ds9 read aloud to me. But never thought of alternating pages to make it easier for him.  He's actually doing really well now, excitedly reading aloud The Lion Witch & Wardrobe tonight, but I'll remember this method when he is dragging his feet.

Yes, especially books that are just at the top of edge of their reading ability, buddy reading works really well. It gives them a "breather" from the hard work that is decoding + fluency + keeping a complex story in their heads. And it helps them "catch on" to the language (like, when as adults, we struggle for the first 20 minutes of watching a Shakespeare play as we work to "get into the flow" of the language). And it helps them get back up on what's going on in the story by listening for a page. All of that works together to maintain interest and enjoyment in the book.

lol. Don't feel dumb! I'm convinced that the best homeschooling ideas always come from someone who had been down that path before. 😉 At least, all the best things we ended up doing (like buddy reading 😉 ) were ideas that came from some people on these boards and some real-life moms who had kids a bit older than I did...

[Elizabeth86]

On 2/21/2021 at 2:10 AM, 4atHome said:

I feel so dumb that this never occurred to me.  I read-aloud to all my kids.  Separately, I also make my reluctant reader ds9 read aloud to me. But never thought of alternating pages to make it easier for him.  He's actually doing really well now, excitedly reading aloud The Lion Witch & Wardrobe tonight, but I'll remember this method when he is dragging his feet.

Haha, it took me a while too. My kids definitely feel good when I share the chore of reading with them. My boys also like to read together like this.

 

[Elizabeth86]

Meadowlark, thank you! I've been thinking this over myself and have several questions for those that go this route.  I'm off to start my own thread.

[Elizabeth86]

On 2/20/2021 at 4:09 PM, Hadley said:

  He seamlessly transitioned into more traditional textbook programs for history and science as he approached middle school.

 

See, this part right here is like the one thing that makes me worry.  It's so hard to imagine that you can just switch over to a more rigorous approach.  It's good to hear that it does happen.

[Lori D.]

5 hours ago, Elizabeth86 said:

See, this part right here is like the one thing that makes me worry.  It's so hard to imagine that you can just switch over to a more rigorous approach.  It's good to hear that it does happen.

Our informal books / hands-on / documentaries / field trips / etc. approach had plenty of rigor (volume of work and level of work) -- it just wasn't traditional formal textbook type of work. Yes, there was a bit of transition time in high school as DSs learned to switch over to note taking and other formal study methods, and to taking some quizzes and tests. But by 9th grade, it wasn't that big a deal -- and I had one with mild LDs.

A textbook does not automatically equal more rigor than a "living books" approach. I actually think the "discuss everything" approach no matter what you're using for your learning resources is the key. Discussion gets you thinking, asking questions, making connections, figuring out patterns and processes yourself. It is those types of skills and abilities that open the door to "rigor".

Really, it's about *interacting* with the material to make it your own. Use whatever resources help you do that.

Edited February 28, 2021 by Lori D.

[8filltheheart]

6 hours ago, Elizabeth86 said:

See, this part right here is like the one thing that makes me worry.  It's so hard to imagine that you can just switch over to a more rigorous approach.  It's good to hear that it does happen.

My kids don't take tests in our homeschool and go on to be close to or 4.0 college students. 🙂  THe only textbooks they ever use in our homeschool are math, high school science, and part of their foreign language studies.  They haven't struggled to adapt to college (and I have had kids attend as STEM majors.)  Mastering math concepts at the elementary and middle school ages is more important than any science that textbooks cover at those ages.  Approaching science as learning to be observant to nature and the world around them and exposure to concepts when young will not inhibit successful mastery of complex science topics when they are older.

[Carol in Cal.]

I think that that would work fine for history.

For science—it’s fine for the informational and general knowledge parts of science but I would question it a bit for applied science.  With scientific formulas, like for math, you have to not only understand them but be able to apply them to a situation and actually use them.  I think that it is important to start introducing that idea earlier than 7th grade.  Also, science requires replicating or initiating experiments and collecting and thinking about and presenting information.  Those skills are helpful if acquired early.  I would suggest doing some experiments and talking about observations and results even if you don’t assign formal reporting on them. 

[8filltheheart]

5 minutes ago, Carol in Cal. said:

I think that that would work fine for history.

For science—it’s fine for the informational and general knowledge parts of science but I would question it a bit for applied science.  With scientific formulas, like for math, you have to not only understand them but be able to apply them to a situation and actually use them.  I think that it is important to start introducing that idea earlier than 7th grade.  Also, science requires replicating or initiating experiments and collecting and thinking about and presenting information.  Those skills are helpful if acquired early.  I would suggest doing some experiments and talking about observations and results even if you don’t assign formal reporting on them. 

Can you share an example of applied scientific  principles taught in elementary and middle school that are not taught at an introductory level in high school? Or lab skills that are necessary for high school labs?

I ask bc my experience with my kids is the opposite of your post. I have a chemE, a ds who is a 3rd yr physics grad student, and a dd who is an atmospheric science major--so all applied science. None of them used a science textbook prior to high school level science. I also hate labs, so no labs except for what is required for high school science.

[Carol in Cal.]

17 minutes ago, 8filltheheart said:

Can you share an example of applied scientific  principles taught in elementary and middle school that are not taught at an introductory level in high school? Or lab skills that are necessary for high school labs?

I ask bc my experience with my kids is the opposite of your post. I have a chemE, a ds who is a 3rd yr physics grad student, and a dd who is an atmospheric science major--so all applied science. None of them used a science textbook prior to high school level science. I also hate labs, so no labs except for what is required for high school science.

It’s not that they are not taught in high school.  It’s that a little earlier intro to them is helpful.

I’m a counter example to NEEDING to do this.  I have a Chem E degree but didn’t take any physics until college, LOL.  

I am not advocating for elementary science textbooks, either.  They are generally bad with very few exceptions.  What I’m suggesting is that in the same way that introducing literary terms before high school turns out to be helpful if done right, that introducing experimentation, including designing experiments, recording data, and discussing how we can or cannot draw conclusions based on the results, is helpful in later studies.  

What I would suggest is reading science for general knowledge, and even for specific knowledge, but also using experiment books or other resources that teach observation and what to do with observations before 7th grade lays a good groundwork for applied science/technology later on.  The Adventures with Atoms and Molecules series suggested in WTM 1 is good for this.  So are the observational science books from Lawrence Hall of Sciences.  

Also, the experiments don’t have to be formal labs and don’t have to be in the kitchen or basement.  They can be planting seeds in different kinds of soil and comparing how they grow, and discussing the results for instance.  

I think, too, that it is very important to introduce the idea of changing vs. eternal ‘truth’.  When I was a kid there were things that were not generally known about CA NA’s that are now considered truisms.  Did the truth change?  No.  Did what we know change?  Maybe we didn’t know what we thought we knew.  Or maybe new data makes us change our minds.  These are important concepts to convey to kids and these days I think it has to happen earlier than middle school, because of the way that otherwise SCIENCE as a trump card will seem more convincing than it should.  So my view is that looking at results of an experiment and then discussing what conclusions are firm and which are not, based on it, has value beyond just getting used to the scientific method.  

I don’t doubt that a great education need not include these so early, but I think that it is better if it does.

Edited February 28, 2021 by Carol in Cal.

[Lori D.]

3 minutes ago, 8filltheheart said:

... None of them used a science textbook prior to high school level science. I also hate labs, so no labs except for what is required for high school science.

Agree. If anything, this approach (very similar to ours) is the very thing that encourages thinking and understanding of concepts. 

I think Science and History textbooks and workbooks in the pre-high school years tend to encourage a type of "memorize and plug and chug" to fill in the blanks or answer the test question -- rather than actually internalizing concepts and pondering and analyzing... 😉 


The "proof of our pudding" (lol) in our science and history approach:

Science: DS#1 is just 1.5 semesters away from becoming a Mechanical Engineer (3.9 GPA), and DS#2 works with natural science and fire behavior science in his job as a wildland firefighter and successfully took an intensive (10-hr/day, 4-week) EMT course and earned his national certification.

History: Both DSs have a good understanding of History and "get" references in literature and films, and thow History informs Current Events and things going on politically around the world.

[Lori D.]

18 minutes ago, Carol in Cal. said:

... What I would suggest is reading science for general knowledge, and even for specific knowledge, but also using experiment books or other resources that teach observation and what to do with observations before 7th grade lays a good groundwork for applied science/technology later on.  The Adventures with Atoms and Molecules series suggested in WTM 1 is good for this.  So are the observational science books from Lawrence Hall of Sciences.  

... Also, the experiments don’t have to be formal labs and don’t have to be in the kitchen or basement.  They can be planting seeds in different kinds of soil and comparing how they grow, and discussing the results for instance...

@Carol in CA Where I line-up somewhat with you and not with 8FilltheHeart (LOL -- NOT that is a contest or a "choosing sides" thing 😉 ) is that we *always* did hands-on activities, demonstrations, etc. In middle school we did a number of the TOPS units, which are guided explorations and very beginning step towards labs / lab reports. We found all of these to be very useful, partly because they were FUN, but they also allowed DSs to interact with the concepts we were reading about and explore and "make the concepts their own."

So while we didn't do formal labs prior to high school, we certainly did informal science explorations all through grades 1-8 which lead to thinking and asking/answering questions... 😉 

Science Skills is a great book for grades 3-5 for how to figure out the kinds of questions to even ask, or how to begin to think about what you obverse.

Edited February 28, 2021 by Lori D.

[Not_a_Number]

1 hour ago, Carol in Cal. said:

What I would suggest is reading science for general knowledge, and even for specific knowledge, but also using experiment books or other resources that teach observation and what to do with observations before 7th grade lays a good groundwork for applied science/technology later on.

I think it's important to inculcate the habit of observation but not important to do it in a formal setting such as experiments. I'm sure it depends on one's family culture, but if you do things like ask "Why do you think that is? How could we check if it's true? Do we know that for sure?" on a regular basis, I don't think you need to run an explicit experiment program until high school. 

[8filltheheart]

2 hours ago, 8filltheheart said:

 Approaching science as learning to be observant to nature and the world around them and exposure to concepts when young will not inhibit successful mastery of complex science topics when they are older.

 

2 hours ago, Carol in Cal. said:

 What I’m suggesting is that in the same way that introducing literary terms before high school turns out to be helpful if done right, that introducing experimentation, including designing experiments, recording data, and discussing how we can or cannot draw conclusions based on the results, is helpful in later studies.  

What I would suggest is reading science for general knowledge, and even for specific knowledge, but also using experiment books or other resources that teach observation and what to do with observations before 7th grade lays a good groundwork for applied science/technology later on. .....

I think, too, that it is very important to introduce the idea of changing vs. eternal ‘truth’.  When I was a kid there were things that were not generally known about CA NA’s that are now considered truisms.  Did the truth change?  No.  Did what we know change?  Maybe we didn’t know what we thought we knew.  Or maybe new data makes us change our minds.  These are important concepts to convey to kids and these days I think it has to happen earlier than middle school, because of the way that otherwise SCIENCE as a trump card will seem more convincing than it should.  So my view is that looking at results of an experiment and then discussing what conclusions are firm and which are not, based on it, has value beyond just getting used to the scientific method.  

I don’t doubt that a great education need not include these so early, but I think that it is better if it does.

I agree that children need to be encouraged to be observant and understand concepts. (I said as much.  🙂 )  Where I differ is that these are best understood through structured experiements and lab reports or "experiment books."  

Mastering concepts and scientific terminology does not need to be done through a textbook.  Whole books on topics delve deep into topics and they are written in the terminology of the field.  Our typical approach is that they research topics in science and history on a rotating basis and their writing assignments are based on that research (even as young as 3rd or 4th grade, though those early yrs it might be copywork.)   In middle school they are taking Cornell Notes from their reading.  

Learning to observe from my perspective is parental training.  We have conversations that revolve around questions based on what we observe.  They learn to think about the things they have learned and how do they relate to what they see or think they see.  When they don't know the answer or their observation conflicts with what they think they know, they learn to look for answers.  They get far more from thinking about things than demonstrations that tend to confirm what they know from what they have been taught.  (Most elementary and middle school science experiments follow the pattern of this is what you have been taught, so now let's replicate what you have been taught.)

FWIW, my POV about the bolded is that young kids see a lot of science demonstrations as what science is and expect the study of science to be full of exciting goo, explosions, and excitement with predetermined outcomes since they are taught to anticipate what will happen. (How often do you hear people say that their kids LOVE science bc of the hands-on experiments.)  But that is far different than the repetitive, often disappointing outcomes, that encapulates real scientific study.  Failures can teach as much as success.  But, most of the time when a demonstration fails, the kids see it as a dud vs. what can se learn from this.  My kids know that science requires study and dedication to actual understanding of what occurs, not that what occurs is fun and that is what science is.  (Not that it can't be fun.....they love to play around with things.....but equally, they aren't disappointed by the field when they get there bc it isn't what they thought it would be.  I guess no "bait and switch." LOL  We know a lot of kids who thought they loved science, but what they really loved was the idea of what they thought it was.

[MagistraKennedy]

On 2/20/2021 at 3:05 PM, Lori D. said:

I say "go for it." 😄 



We have 2 fully-functioning, working adult DSs. One went on and took an intensive (10-hr/day, 4-week) EMT course and earned his national certification, and has enjoyed learning a lot about natural science and fire behavior science in his job as a wildland firefighter. The other is finishing up his second Bachelor's degree, this time in Mechanical Engineering (with a 3.9 GPA).

Both have an understanding of History in order to get references in literature and films, and to understand how History informs Current Events and things going on politically around the world.

Conclusion: reading and discussing works as learning tool. 😉 

My son (almost 13) would love to hear more about this wildland firefighter job! That sounds fascinating. 

 

[Lori D.]

7 hours ago, MagistraKennedy said:

My son (almost 13) would love to hear more about this wildland firefighter job! That sounds fascinating. 

Some quick links to career exploration websites with info on this job:
- U.S. Wildland Fire Careers
- California Career Zone: Forest Firefighter -- click on the box in the upper right corner of that page that says "Media Gallery" for a 2-minute video that is a good overview about the job

If you live in California, that state has their own department of Cal Fire.

My DS#2 is a seasonal firefighter for the U.S. National Forest Service. <--- From that link, it shows there are a number of areas; what the majority of them do, including what my DS#2 does, is Wildfires, Prescribed Fires, and Fuels.

DS#2 has spent 4 seasons on a hand crew. He occasionally fills in on a hot shot crew. There are also engine crews. Each type of crew has their own specialty. Hand crews dig line -- they clear a gap around the fire to remove burnable materials to stop or redirect the forest fire. They mostly use shovels, picks, chainsaws, and axes. They also do a lot of "back burning" with drip cans -- they do control burns ahead of the fire to burn out the fuel, so when the forest fire hits the back burned area, it dies out from lack of fuel to burn. Engine crews are on an engine that pumps water, so they do a lot with hoses and putting out "spot fires" (small fires that spark from burning debris that flies up and comes down up to a mile away from the main forest fire) with water, much like an urban firefighter. Hot shot crews are similar to hand crews, but often are sent into remote areas near the fire to do fire containment.

The job is seasonal (roughly April through September), and at the end of September, he reapplies for the next season and has to be accepted again each year. Also each season he has to re-certify for his "red card", which shows that he has passed the required physical tests to be able to do the job. So in the "off-season" he is working out a lot -- weight lifting, running, hiking with a weighted pack -- but he is also able to do temporary work of other kinds.

During the season, the first month or so is a lot of training, doing work of fixing up the compound where they live, doing the occasional trail conservation project for nearby trails, etc. And, they are doing a lot of clearing of brush, taking down "snags" (still standing dead trees), and other things for the health of the forest. Once forest fires start, they hike in, usually anywhere from 1/2 mile to 2-3 miles, carrying all of their gear -- when DS#2 is working chainsaw, he not only has his standard pack but also the chainsaw, parts for the chainsaw, and a container of fuel for the chainsaw -- so about 70 pounds that he is carrying in. Once they reach the area, they assess the fire, and the crew boss determines a plan of action, which may include calling in air support to drop water or fire retardant on the flames. Most of what DS#2 does at this stage is be in a smoky environment, and work hard with a shovel or a chainsaw for 10-12 hours, even 16 hours straight. 😉 

They will work for up to 12-14 days straight on a fire, and then there are mandatory days off. They may get sent back to the same fire after their break, but usually not. If they get sent to a fire that is "winding down", then they do a lot of digging through the burnt area, sticking gloved hands into stumps and piles of charcoal rubble to look for "hot spots" and make sure to cool those down so the fire can't re-ignite there.

So it's a lot of hot, dirty, heavy, exhausting work, but it's clearly very satisfying, as DS#2 will be going back for his 5th season in about a month!

Edited March 3, 2021 by Lori D.

[Ellie]

On 2/20/2021 at 1:39 PM, Meadowlark said:

I’m strongly considering just scrapping all of our moving parts, and just devouring nonfiction books for science and history AND reading quality fiction as our reading “program”. Up until 6th grade that is. What do you think about that idea? Will I be ruining my kids for good? Any tips on how to make it work?

I think it sounds great. And you don't even need to add anything else to your plan, either. Just read. If the dc feel so inclined, do some activities and stuff, follow the bunny trails.