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Why are health care workers refusing the vaccine at high rates?


PeterPan
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1 hour ago, Spy Car said:

All the healthcare works I know were chomping at the bit to get vaccinated and have either done so or or still in line due to lack of supply.

I think this is a false narrative.

Bill 

 

The last 4 years have opened my eyes to a side of America that I never knew existed. My corner of the country seems vastly different from other parts of America in many ways, vaccine adoption included. A few of my friends in another state got their vaccines already because it was available for the asking due to hesitancy there and my friends are not even 50 years old, fit, healthy (no known medical issues), not in the medical field and working from home in the tech sector with no kids either. So, there are areas where there is not much demand for the vaccine.

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My impression is that the majority of health care workers are eager to get the vaccination for COVID-19.  Possibly that percentage is unique to the facility you are referencing?  Very sad if that is common...

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55 minutes ago, Farrar said:

There was literally an article I read a week or so ago about why so many elder care and nursing home staff were refusing the vaccine. And they suggested it was very high - maybe half? I'll see if I can find it. I think it was in WaPo. The experts they quoted suggested that it was the case that many of these workers were undereducated and BIPOC and/or immigrants - all groups that are resistant to taking the vaccine in general. Plus, unlike other healthcare workers, these folks did not have PPE all the time. They have lived with the virus for so long and some have become more accustomed to the risk in a different way from other healthcare workers.

Yes, and I got flamed earlier in the thread for suggesting this is a part. I know that I've gone into his AL and seen the (now former) head nurse with a homemade cotton mask not even covering her nose. I get if you can't afford or get access to PPE, but not to wear properly what you've got?? Now fortunately, they've had very few cases, but they got there by severe isolation of the residents, not by high standards or protocols of the staff. 

That's an interesting point that they're maybe jaded. I agree, it's interesting that so few have gotten sick considering how under methodical the protections were. Same gig with churches. Around here they've had so few cases (that I'm hearing of), that it's like oh well, overblown, move on. 

56 minutes ago, ktgrok said:

I'm hopeful that as people see others vaccinated and doing well they will reconsider. 

I don't know. There was a black gentleman (sports figure, I forget) who took the vaccine publicly and then died. I'm not sure it has worked out well.

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43 minutes ago, mathnerd said:

The last 4 years have opened my eyes to a side of America that I never knew existed. My corner of the country seems vastly different from other parts of America in many ways, vaccine adoption included. A few of my friends in another state got their vaccines already because it was available for the asking due to hesitancy there and my friends are not even 50 years old, fit, healthy (no known medical issues), not in the medical field and working from home in the tech sector with no kids either. So, there are areas where there is not much demand for the vaccine.

Yup. I follow cruising a bit and they're now saying they expect vaccines to become available on demand by April. That's really good for the cruising industry, because they're wanting to get the crews vaccinated. 

https://www.royalcaribbeanblog.com/2021/02/18/carnival-ceo-the-end-of-year-most-if-not-all-of-our-fleet-will-be-action

So yeah, the people refusing the vaccine are making it easier for the people waiting who really want it. I guess in that sense it's all going to pan out. So long as we keep my dad out of isolation. So done with that.

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As for @PeterPan 's original last question, the UK announced today that employers can refuse to hire new staff who don't vaccinate, unless the Equality Act is involved (so no refusal of employment because people have any sort of medical contraindication, or are too young to get vaccinated yet). Since Equality Act information is involved, it's not clear if it's legal to ask at interview or whether employers who wish to bar unvaccinated candidates can only ask that question on the (unseen by interviewers) personal information form. It is also possible that jobs where not vaccinating poses minimal risk to others (e.g. homeworking jobs) may not be able to require vaccination, but it would need to be tested in court.


Existing staff - regardless of their job - cannot be made to vaccinate unless a new contract is agreed voluntarily.

I am not aware of what, exactly, USA law has to say about the matter.

 

Care home staff are undervaccinated in the UK, too - 80% of people in the top 2 priority groups (which includes all health care workers) have been vaccinated, including 88% of health care workers in general and 93% of care home residents, but only 70% of care home workers. This is despite care home staff typically being offered the chance to vaccinate at the same time as their home's residents. "Cultural reasons" have been cited as a significant cause (think: "Saturday afternoon vaccinations? Nah, not going back to work for hours to help with vaccination unpaid because it's then classed as a medical appointment"*)  There is also especial distrust among ethnic minorities caused by mistakes made by the government earlier in the pandemic (there are more people in ethnic minorities in care home work than the national occupation average).

* - I am told everyone (residents and staff) accepted in the care home my relatives work in, partly because the care home opted to pay staff time-and-a-half. Not all care homes did this. Seeing that show of unanimity, in turn, helped gain trust from residents.

 

One more thing I should add: wealth has something to do with it. In Wales, between 4.4 and 5.7 % points fewer eligible people in poor areas accepted the vaccine than in the wealthiest ones. (You won't be surprised to hear care home workers tend to be on minimum-wage, or low-wage, in the UK). This is rather smaller than the 14 % points gap between white and ethnic minority people, but it is still significant. (Before anyone asks, I have no data from the UK regarding the effect of education on take-up, and don't expect to see any in the near future because that sort of infomation isn't consistently put in GP's records and would have to be cross-referenced from another source).

Edited by ieta_cassiopeia
Anecdote explanation
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6 hours ago, PeterPan said:

I don't know. There was a black gentleman (sports figure, I forget) who took the vaccine publicly and then died. I'm not sure it has worked out well.

If you're talking about Hank Aaron, he died of natural causes at the age of 86 several weeks after he was vaccinated. There was no connection between the vaccine and his death, although of course that didn't stop anti-vaxxers from exploiting his death to further their agenda.

 

Edited by Corraleno
mis-typed the age
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We live urban.  Everyone I know locally who works in health care was very happy to get vaccinated ASAP.   Vaccine compliance is super high in the research university and the urban hospital settings.  

That said, we have a friend that owns an rural assisted living facility. Only 40% of their staff would get vaccinated. 90+% of the residents wanted to be vaccinated.  There was a story recently in local media about rural elder care workers declining the vaccine in particular.  So I really do think the percentages vary widely by location and demographics, etc.

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I wonder if the people who won't accept the Moderna & Pfizer vaccines will be OK with the J&J shot. If they're worried about the newness of the mRNA technology, or they think it will change their DNA, or Bill Gates put microchips in there, or whatever, then maybe an "old school" vaccine like J&J will be more acceptable to them?

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I think maybe the thread title is a bit of a misnomer. My understanding is that health care workers overall are anxious to get the vaccine and have not been refusing it in high numbers, at least, not when compared to the population in general who plans to get or not get it. But nursing home workers specifically have been refusing it at higher numbers than the general population plans to get or not get the vaccine.

I couldn't find the article I initially read, but he's another one from the USA Today:

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/health/2021/02/01/nursing-home-workers-reluctant-get-covid-vaccine-cdc-study-finds/6664743002/

"While residents of nursing homes and their caregivers have been considered a top priority for COVID-19 vaccination, only 38% of nursing home staff accepted shots when they were offered, new data from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention revealed Monday."

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1 minute ago, Laura Corin said:

In the UK, people of colour are less keen on the vaccine and are more likely to work in health care and social care.

 

 

Yes this was my thought, particularly in aged care here, but also in hospitals to some degree.

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8 minutes ago, Farrar said:

I think maybe the thread title is a bit of a misnomer. My understanding is that health care workers overall are anxious to get the vaccine and have not been refusing it in high numbers, at least, not when compared to the population in general who plans to get or not get it. But nursing home workers specifically have been refusing it at higher numbers than the general population plans to get or not get the vaccine.

I couldn't find the article I initially read, but he's another one from the USA Today:

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/health/2021/02/01/nursing-home-workers-reluctant-get-covid-vaccine-cdc-study-finds/6664743002/

"While residents of nursing homes and their caregivers have been considered a top priority for COVID-19 vaccination, only 38% of nursing home staff accepted shots when they were offered, new data from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention revealed Monday."

Well mercy, you're making me feel like my dad's place is doing well at 60%! And indeed, since it's quite small, we may be talking a very small number of people here. When full, they only have 50 rooms/units. I've never asked, but I would assume they have maybe 20 staff. So if 60% took it with the group and a couple took it ahead because they could, then we're literally talking 3-4 who are just off the charts doing their own thing. And presumably 1-2 of them have some kind of medical reason. And it could be those are the ones who, over the last 6-9 months, have had it. They've usually had just one case of staff at a time, but it has happened, maybe once every other month. So that makes sense that some of that pushback could be people who recently had it who are possibly still immune or concerned. That seems reasonable to me. If I had had it and was offered a shot, I would be wanting a gap definitely.

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44 minutes ago, ieta_cassiopeia said:

As for @PeterPan 's original last question, the UK announced today that employers can refuse to hire new staff who don't vaccinate, unless the Equality Act is involved (so no refusal of employment because people have any sort of medical contraindication, or are too young to get vaccinated yet). Since Equality Act information is involved, it's not clear if it's legal to ask at interview or whether employers who wish to bar unvaccinated candidates can only ask that question on the (unseen by interviewers) personal information form. It is also possible that jobs where not vaccinating poses minimal risk to others (e.g. homeworking jobs) may not be able to require vaccination, but it would need to be tested in court.



I am not aware of what, exactly, USA law has to say about the matter.

 

Interesting.  DH's will be fully vaccinated as of next week.  Vaccination clinic were arranged in the very beginning by his employer.  Once first doses had been offered they quit sequestering personnel.  It's believed that they will begin to phase out paid quarantine once all employees have been offered the vaccine, unless required to do so by law, as vaccinated employees no longer have to quarantine.

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I'm not so sure that HCW actually are refusing it at a high rate. I've seen anecdotal reports but nothing comprehensive.

My observation is that the lower on the educational spectrum the person is, the less likely they are to take the vaccine. I haven't come across a single doctor who didn't take it, and only a TINY handful of RNs. I have, however, heard of a decent number of CNAs refusing it. But overall, I think a high percentage of HCW are taking it. 

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4 hours ago, Spy Car said:

Smart people who follow science run in my circle.

Bill

I envy you.

I have plenty of smart friends, but almost all deeply distrust science. 

My only pro-vax friend is an NP. But what does she know? 😉 

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25 minutes ago, kand said:

I read an article about this just this morning. It said in part, “Nationwide, nearly half of Americans would refuse a shot if offered one immediately, polls suggest. Vaccination skepticism is even higher among Black and Hispanic people, white people without a college degree, registered Republicans and lower-income households.” This was a poll done earlier this month about it. Interestingly, partisanship was the biggest predictor. It’s such a shame this was politicized. Would have made such a difference in our outcomes if it hadn’t been, and it didn’t make any sense to make it political

According to that study, in the under-65 age group, 45% of Republicans say they will never get the vaccine, versus only 9% of Democrats. It's just insane that covid in general, and the vaccine in particular, have been politicized to such an extreme extent.  

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I think there are probably a percentage of people who are falling into bad information.

I think there are probably a percentage of "healthcare workers" who aren't.  What I mean by that is that these people are doing jobs like housekeeping etc in the nursing home.  They are "healthcare workers" and should be classified as such because they are working in a healthcare setting but in terms of 'people who understand the health information' they aren't really the same as nurses and doctors.  That's not a slam or a claim that these people are less intelligent, it simply means that not all health care workers are coming at the knowledge from the same knowledge base.  

I also think that it's important to recognize that the group refusing vaccines aren't a monolith and there isn't any one answer to "why are health care workers refusing the vaccine at high rates.  There's a spectrum between 'the vaccine is a Bill Gates conspiracy' and 'not right now, maybe later.'

 

I am not a healthcare worker but in my current situation, I could potentially become a high priority individual as I am considering a return to the education field.  Priorities for teachers vary based on state, but going back to teaching does mark a potential change in my priority.  And if I were to go back to teaching, I might potentially refuse.  Why?

* I have already had covid.  Documented, not an assumption.  The data we have on natural immunity vs vaccine immunity is about equal.  In fact, I dare say we have more information on natural vs vaccine since the disease has been around longer than the vaccine.  But given that we are talking about a disease that has been around for like a yearish, and a vaccine that has been around for 6 months-ish, the difference is minute.  So IMO, getting the vaccine doesn't offer me any more evidence based immunity than my current post covid status.

*Because I have already had it and the data just isn't there, I would feel like I was taking immunity from someone who hasn't had it.

*We have literally no information about the vaccine effects beyond a year because obviously....the vaccine hasn't existed that long and the disease has only existed about a year.  I have never been comfortable with new vaccines.  I want to see more long term info.  I am consistent in this.  DD25 did not get the chicken pox vaccine, but my younger kids have all had it.  DD25 didn't get Gardasil until she was like 18 or 19.  I am grateful that there are plenty of people willing to get vaccines sooner so that I can wait and see.   But I will still wait and see for me and mine.  I want good data on what happens 1, 2, 5 yrs out, and that data takes a whole lot more time than we have had.  That's not uneducated.

I am very pro vax.  My younger kids will probably all be getting Gardasil as they get older and as I said, they all have had the C-pox vax.  But vaccines without long term data...I wait.  I don't believe in conspiracy theories, I just want more info.  

 

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1 hour ago, Corraleno said:

I wonder if the people who won't accept the Moderna & Pfizer vaccines will be OK with the J&J shot. If they're worried about the newness of the mRNA technology, or they think it will change their DNA, or Bill Gates put microchips in there, or whatever, then maybe an "old school" vaccine like J&J will be more acceptable to them?

I wonder about this, too.

I believe people deserve information to make informed choices.   We don't need to be mocked by doctors tweeting about how they've received the shot and haven't come down with autism or the daughter of Bill Gates joking about not getting her father's genius implanted in her brain, etc.   

My personal concerns about the shots are real given my own medical history.   I guarantee that I won't be putting my life in the hands of the pharmacy staff at Walgreens.  All I know is that I spend time at EVERY SINGLE medical check-up answering their questions about my past drug reactions even though it's all in my medical file at the same place I've been going to for years.   So...if one nurse or doctor starts to mock me when I express my concerns about how MY body may react to a particular shot and just wants to rush me into taking whatever they've got, then I will tell them to shove it (and I don't mean in my arm).  

 

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3 minutes ago, happysmileylady said:

I have already had covid.  Documented, not an assumption.  The data we have on natural immunity vs vaccine immunity is about equal. 

Data from Brazil and SA seem to indicate that prior infection does not provide immunity against some of the new variants, and Novavax found that their vaccine offered significantly more protection against the SA variant than prior infection with the original strain. They have not published the actual numbers AFAIK, but I think people who have had covid might want to monitor the data on that.

The current recommendation seems to be for those who had prior infections to get one dose of the vaccine. And if you are concerned about the mRNA technology, you might look into the AZ or J&J vaccines. Although the efficacy for J&J as a single dose is fairly low, it might be an effective "second shot" for those with prior infections.

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3 minutes ago, Corraleno said:

Data from Brazil and SA seem to indicate that prior infection does not provide immunity against some of the new variants, and Novavax found that their vaccine offered significantly more protection against the SA variant than prior infection with the original strain. They have not published the actual numbers AFAIK, but I think people who have had covid might want to monitor the data on that.

The current recommendation seems to be for those who had prior infections to get one dose of the vaccine. And if you are concerned about the mRNA technology, you might look into the AZ or J&J vaccines. Although the efficacy for J&J as a single dose is fairly low, it might be an effective "second shot" for those with prior infections.

And there's other data that shows that different variants make little difference.  The point is.......there simply hasn't been enough time to analyze all the data in real time.  You say "seems to indicate."  Sure.  I can go with that.  "seems to" isn't really enough for me.  That doesn't mean I am uneducated, it simply means that I recognize that the way things "seem" to be isn't always the way they *are.*  

 

I am not concerned about mRNA tech.  In fact, I think it's great that we have a new tech that we can study more.  I am not anti new tech.  

 

And right now, for me personally, it's not an issue because I am the lowest of low priority.  Under 65 (or under 50, or under 45) and no pre-existing health conditions at all (no HBP, no chronic conditions, etc).  I don't have to make this decision right now.  I simply made my post from a "if I had to make the decision right now" perspective.  The truth is, 6 months from now, my answer might change.  

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I read yesterday that 30% of US military members who are eligible have refused it and the article (CNN) went on to explain that 30% is pretty typical everywhere.

 

I read an CNN article several months ago that 40% of FDNY planned to refuse it.

 

So it may just be human nature

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If I were to take a teaching job tomorrow and were to be offered the vaccine as a part of that job, I would do what I could to see if DD25 could have it instead of me.  She's 25 and can decide for herself.  Also, she has severe asthma that is moderately controlled.  If given a choice between myself, who has already had it, who is otherwise not at risk, and my DD, who hasn't had it and is at greater risk than myself should she be exposed....yes, I would prefer to give my spot to her if I could.  

 

Is that something that's possible in some states and is that ultimately considered refusal?

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8 hours ago, PeterPan said:

And I'll preface this that my dad is in assisted living and apparently only 60% of the staff took the vaccine. Even if my dad is FULLY VACCINATED, per the CDC he will still have to quarantine TWO WEEKS if he has a "known exposure." So I'm completely pissed at the morals and ethics of this.

So please, just tell me in plain english, why are 40% of the health care workers refusing the vaccine? It can't be for safety, because the few deaths have been directly attributable to known patterns. (having recently had covid, one dude was actually POSITIVE FOR COVID WHEN HE TOOK THE SHOT)

Is it literally something basic, like these are low education workers and they are hearing some kind of provocative garbage? Is it political because it's a "Trump" vaccine and some donkey's butt politicians made hay over that?

What is going on?? And is the refusal rate lower in some settings than others? And just to be clear, are these employers legally allowed to require it?

 

No, not all of the deaths were directly attributable to known patterns. And so, yes, I'm going with safety.

And I'm sort of offended on the part of the people refusing the vaccine that you imagine they must be "low education workers."

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2 hours ago, PeterPan said:

Well mercy, you're making me feel like my dad's place is doing well at 60%! And indeed, since it's quite small, we may be talking a very small number of people here. When full, they only have 50 rooms/units. I've never asked, but I would assume they have maybe 20 staff. So if 60% took it with the group and a couple took it ahead because they could, then we're literally talking 3-4 who are just off the charts doing their own thing. And presumably 1-2 of them have some kind of medical reason. And it could be those are the ones who, over the last 6-9 months, have had it. They've usually had just one case of staff at a time, but it has happened, maybe once every other month. So that makes sense that some of that pushback could be people who recently had it who are possibly still immune or concerned. That seems reasonable to me. If I had had it and was offered a shot, I would be wanting a gap definitely.

Given that it's likely that many of them actually had Covid, I would guess that they may be close to herd immunity levels, actually, if 60% of them got the shot. 

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3 minutes ago, kand said:

I don’t imagine that’s something people can do. States still have to follow the tiers they set, so if someone passes it up, it goes to someone else in an open tier. Which does make sense, even though I really want to be considered for it ASAP. We still have over 65s waiting to get their shots, so I do think they should have priority before me, even though I’d love to have the shot of someone who refused. The scenario you described would be considered refusal. 

I don't know if some states or counties have things in place to make sure every dose gets used or not, which is why I mentioned the possibility.  We (as a country) are making such a huge country wide effort that how some places are handling these sorts of situations probable is different from some other places.  

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21 minutes ago, happysmileylady said:

If I were to take a teaching job tomorrow and were to be offered the vaccine as a part of that job, I would do what I could to see if DD25 could have it instead of me.  She's 25 and can decide for herself.  Also, she has severe asthma that is moderately controlled.  If given a choice between myself, who has already had it, who is otherwise not at risk, and my DD, who hasn't had it and is at greater risk than myself should she be exposed....yes, I would prefer to give my spot to her if I could.  

 

Is that something that's possible in some states and is that ultimately considered refusal?

Florida allows you to transfer your vaccine appointment to someone else, but they have to be eligible (65+ in Florida). Other states do not allow you to transfer your shot. I don't think any state allows you to pick someone not already eligible to receive the shot under whatever tier system there is. 

Edited by historically accurate
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7 hours ago, J-rap said:

Are you in Ohio?  I've heard there's a higher number of health care workers in Ohio who are choosing not to get it, especially at assisted living facilities.  According to articles I've read, it's mostly because they've been listening to misinformation that says since the vaccine was produced so quickly, it's not safe and can cause permanent changes to your DNA which will result in problems down the road.  (Not true.)

Lies are alive and well in my part of Ohio. 

7 hours ago, Mrs Tiggywinkle said:

Many have already had Covid and many are fatalistic, strongly believing it’s going to be a seasonal illness and we have to coexist with it.

We co-exist with the flu too, and we vaccinate for that. This attitude makes zero sense to me or to my DH (healthcare worker).

5 hours ago, Katy said:

Among those I know it’s 75% social media lies. And maybe 20% principled waiting for safety data.  And maybe 5% history of serious reactions that makes them personally dubious. 

That parallels what I see here, but the stats apply slightly less well to healthcare workers that have the most degrees. They are doing better at vaccine uptake, but it's not nearly as universal as I had hoped here.

DH works in healthcare, has been fully vaccinated, and just changed facilities in the same region of the state. His original job was in a facility that would be expected to maybe be less compliant but was actually super compliant with masks, etc. Not sure how vaccine uptake was due to timing, but there were a fair number of employees that used appropriate PPE at work but were more cavalier outside of work (few got covid and their long-covid case was from before lockdowns, and I think that provider had been doing high-risk procedures). New job--their workers are more conscientious about other aspects of their practice than the first facility, but were not at all compliant with PPE and had lots of covid cases leading up to the drop in cases. I think they are about average for our area for vaccine uptake. They instituted non-negotiable mask policies (thank God) just before my husband started working there after complaints were made.

A friend who works in a nursing home has reported a lot of co-workers refusing vaccines at her facility, but I think they were better than the average in some of these articles. A lot have had covid already.

2 hours ago, Laura Corin said:

In the UK, people of colour are less keen on the vaccine and are more likely to work in health care and social care.

This is my understanding as well in the US.

2 hours ago, kand said:

I read an article about this just this morning. It said in part, “Nationwide, nearly half of Americans would refuse a shot if offered one immediately, polls suggest. Vaccination skepticism is even higher among Black and Hispanic people, white people without a college degree, registered Republicans and lower-income households.” This was a poll done earlier this month about it. Interestingly, partisanship was the biggest predictor.

The article I read also noted that good public health information has been slow to get translated and disseminated to workers for whom English is a second language, and those groups are more likely to work in health care settings. 

1 hour ago, Corraleno said:

According to that study, in the under-65 age group, 45% of Republicans say they will never get the vaccine, versus only 9% of Democrats. It's just insane that covid in general, and the vaccine in particular, have been politicized to such an extreme extent.  

It is mostly partisan here, but older people who are Republicans are more likely to get the shot from what I am seeing locally. I see kind of a weird demographic of people who are vocally opposed to masks but wear them anyway, and some of them will get vaccinated.

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3 hours ago, Laura Corin said:

In the UK, people of colour are less keen on the vaccine and are more likely to work in health care and social care.

 

 

Same in the US.  And given the history, it's RATIONAL for people of color to be a lot more skeptical/ hesitant around vaccines.  They have very little reason to trust the government and medical/ vaccine infrastructure.  

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9 hours ago, plansrme said:

Well if that isn't a snotty thing to suggest about the people caring for your father, that they are too stupid and uneducated to make a reasonable decision about a vaccine.

Can employers legally require it? Probably. Will they? My healthcare clients (hospitals mostly) are constantly, desperately trying to attract workers. If 60% of their existing workforce doesn't want to take a vaccine, are you really going to risk alienating them and 60% of their potential replacements by requiring it? 

Exactly. 
 

My daughter is a CNA, working her way through nursing school. She contracted Covid responding to a positive patient in need. She worked double shifts. She worked with Covid patients after she recovered. To insinuate they don’t care? Well, there’s a lot easier ways to earn $10-$15/hour. Heck, she made that at Chic Fil A and never had to clean up urine, feces, have her ass slapped, or help move people three times her weight. Have the discussion, but respect that CNAs and nurses have some of the hardest jobs in the world. 

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4 hours ago, Corraleno said:

I wonder if the people who won't accept the Moderna & Pfizer vaccines will be OK with the J&J shot. If they're worried about the newness of the mRNA technology, or they think it will change their DNA, or Bill Gates put microchips in there, or whatever, then maybe an "old school" vaccine like J&J will be more acceptable to them?

My son's LVN, who I've shared here is anti-vax, has said that she will get the J&J but I kind of think she'll back out when the time comes. She has stated that she "doesn't trust any data that comes through the government" and that she will retire if the mRNA vaccine were to be mandated. It's been a very frustrating time for me but I also deeply believe in informed consent. I also, because of the disabled child circles I run in, have known real live vaccine injured kids. I don't think vaccine injury is illegitimate; I know that it's a real risk. I just happen to think that it's worth the risk, especially because my family tends to weather vaccines pretty well. So, yeah, I have a lot of empathy all around and do not judge anyone for the decision they make with their own body. I think enough people are on board with the vaccines to make a huge difference in the overall impact of Covid and probably a good number of abstainers will get on board once they see the longer term data (or not, and us early adopters are screwed). I certainly don't feel the need to convince anyone.

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5 hours ago, Corraleno said:

If you're talking about Hank Aaron, he died of natural causes at the age of 68 several weeks after he was vaccinated. There was no connection between the vaccine and his death, although of course that didn't stop anti-vaxxers from exploiting his death to further their agenda.

He was actually 86.  Not meaning to nitpick just thought I’d clarify in case people saw 68 and wondered why he died young.  He really didn’t.  

 

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20 minutes ago, BlsdMama said:

Exactly. 
 

My daughter is a CNA, working her way through nursing school. She contracted Covid responding to a positive patient in need. She worked double shifts. She worked with Covid patients after she recovered. To insinuate they don’t care? Well, there’s a lot easier ways to earn $10-$15/hour. Heck, she made that at Chic Fil A and never had to clean up urine, feces, have her ass slapped, or help move people three times her weight. Have the discussion, but respect that CNAs and nurses have some of the hardest jobs in the world. 

CNAs are heroes in my book. I don't think it diminishes them to notice that they also tend to be less educated in microbiology. immunology, and data analysis, and therefore might be more prone to rejecting the vaccine based on their lack of expertise. The point is not that only  less educated people reject the vaccine but more that those with lower levels of education seem to reject the vaccine at higher rates (at least from what I have observed).

On the cultural note, I was speaking to a person who owns/runs a SNF and she said the best thing that our county did was to send an educator from the culture primarily represented in their workforce (here it is Filipino) to answer questions and talk to their staff. They went from about 20% on board to 100%. 

Edited by sassenach
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It's not a totally benign vaccine and heath care workers are seeing reactions in their coworkers.   My husband has received both doses and he is glad to have gotten it but he also would not be comfortable with our kids getting it.  It is pretty much expected that people will miss work after their second does.  In the first 800 doses at my husband's hospital 3 people ended up in the ER.   It's not surprising to me that some heath care workers, especially young heathy ones, are waiting.  But it does not appear to be a different rate from the general public around here.  

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19 minutes ago, BaseballandHockey said:

He was actually 86.  Not meaning to nitpick just thought I’d clarify in case people saw 68 and wondered why he died young.  He really didn’t.  

Oops! I accidentally reversed the numbers and didn't notice, thanks so much for catching that!

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58 minutes ago, sassenach said:

anti-vax, has said that she will get the J&J but I kind of think she'll back out when the time comes.

The logic on this is odd to me. I hadn't kept up on the J&J, but just googling it looks like any traditional vaccine, which to me means any argument you had about the other typical vaccines would apply. And to boot it's not as effective. I see no logic there. Maybe I'm missing it and someone thinks it's somehow safer?? 

Either way you're risking a reaction and the adjuvicants and all that junk. And if you're going to take a risk, take it for a vaccine that is more effective, seems to me.

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47 minutes ago, PeterPan said:

The logic on this is odd to me. I hadn't kept up on the J&J, but just googling it looks like any traditional vaccine, which to me means any argument you had about the other typical vaccines would apply. And to boot it's not as effective. I see no logic there. Maybe I'm missing it and someone thinks it's somehow safer?? 

Either way you're risking a reaction and the adjuvicants and all that junk. And if you're going to take a risk, take it for a vaccine that is more effective, seems to me.

I kind of get it in the sense that it's totally possible that there are unforeseen consequences to mRNA vaccines specifically. I really had a moment when  deciding to get my vaccine. It's a leap of faith to inject something that has been studied for mere months (which, yes, applies to all of the vaccines, but new technology yada yada yada). Again, I've got a lot of grace for those who decide not to get it right now. 

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Hmmm, much to consider for sure.  I saw my acupuncturist the other day and I was curious to know what he thought, after all, he is all about alternative medicine and well educated.    He said he has been vaccinated and to go get the shot because covid can be serious.  He doesn't believe in all the conspiracy crazy stories.  Just passing this on.

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5 hours ago, happysmileylady said:

If I were to take a teaching job tomorrow and were to be offered the vaccine as a part of that job, I would do what I could to see if DD25 could have it instead of me.  She's 25 and can decide for herself.  Also, she has severe asthma that is moderately controlled.  If given a choice between myself, who has already had it, who is otherwise not at risk, and my DD, who hasn't had it and is at greater risk than myself should she be exposed....yes, I would prefer to give my spot to her if I could.  

 

Is that something that's possible in some states and is that ultimately considered refusal?

 I would have loved to give my teacher vaccine to my 90 year old GFIL.  But they are prioritizing teachers to make schools safer.  You can't give your shot away.  

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4 minutes ago, BaseballandHockey said:

 I would have loved to give my teacher vaccine to my 90 year old GFIL.  But they are prioritizing teachers to make schools safer.  You can't give your shot away.  

And doesn't that suck.  If I were to get a vaccine by virtue of taking a teaching position...........what a waste of a dose.  

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1 minute ago, happysmileylady said:

And doesn't that suck.  If I were to get a vaccine by virtue of taking a teaching position...........what a waste of a dose.  

i agree.  Not that I think we should be able to give them away, but I think that giving the vaccine to teachers, to reopen, when we haven't vaccinated the most vulnerable populations is wrong.  They should be the priority.

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2 hours ago, PeterPan said:

The logic on this is odd to me. I hadn't kept up on the J&J, but just googling it looks like any traditional vaccine, which to me means any argument you had about the other typical vaccines would apply. And to boot it's not as effective. I see no logic there. Maybe I'm missing it and someone thinks it's somehow safer?? 

The nano capsules used by Pfizer & Moderna contain an ingredient (PEG) that some people suspect may be causing anaphylactic reactions, and J&J doesn't contain that.  Also, the new mRNA technology seems to scare a lot of people, leading to conspiracy theories that they will "change your DNA," make you infertile/sterile/gay, implant microchips from Bill Gates, etc. And perhaps the fact that J&J got a late start may give people the false impression that it was better tested and less "rushed," when in reality they just started their trials several months later than Pfizer & Moderna.

Edited by Corraleno
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5 hours ago, BaseballandHockey said:

i agree.  Not that I think we should be able to give them away, but I think that giving the vaccine to teachers, to reopen, when we haven't vaccinated the most vulnerable populations is wrong.  They should be the priority.

My BIL was vaccinated because he's a golf coach in a small private school - he's considered a school employee.  I try not to judge, but it bothers me that he was able to get it while those who are at much higher risk can't.

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As far as why school employees are getting it before some more vulnerable people...  I think given that they are trying to roll the vaccines out as fast as humanly possible, they just don't have time to put together an extremely detailed, time-consuming plan that focuses on individuals instead of large groups.  So they do it in large target groups instead, knowing that it's not perfect and knowing that some people who really need it won't be getting it in the first groups and others who don't need it will be getting it quickly.   Vaccinating nursing homes and health care facilities was the obvious first step.

Regarding schools being an early group... It's been tremendously difficult for working families to have to juggle teaching young children while keeping up with their jobs, and so many children are now falling behind and struggling.  About 1/4 of our population (in the US) is under 18. That's a lot of kids and families .   Also, it's so very economically unbalanced as far as how families are able to deal with it.  Getting kids back to the classroom is critical.  

Hopefully people like my dh who have serious chronic health conditions will be able to keep doing what they're doing in the meantime (being very careful), until they can be vaccinated.  And hopefully vaccines will roll out even faster over the next few weeks so they won't have to wait too long.

 

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8 hours ago, BaseballandHockey said:

 I would have loved to give my teacher vaccine to my 90 year old GFIL.  But they are prioritizing teachers to make schools safer.  You can't give your shot away.  

90yo don't have priority? I'm really surprised. 

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1 hour ago, Laura Corin said:

90yo don't have priority? I'm really surprised. 

My situation is complicated because I live in one state, and teach in another (well except I'm 100% virtual right now), and the state that I teach in is in a different place in the roll out.  

But, I've been really unhappy with the way the vaccine roll out has gone here in the state where I live. 

Basically they have tiers which they name with a complicated series of letters and numbers.  we've got the following groups open I believe

1A1 -- Health care workers

1A2 -- Residents of Nursing homes, assistive living, group homes

1A3 -- First responders

1B1 -- People 75 and up, and individuals with IDD who live in the community

1B2 -- Daycare providers and K12 educators

1C-- People 65 and up, certain essential workers

They've gradually opened tiers, but they open each new tier before the tier above is finished.  So, right now, I think all the 1A's have had a chance, but all of 1B and 1C are open, even though many elderly have still not gotten it. 

In addition, the employers are being given vaccines specifically for that group.  So, hospitals, and police forces, and school districts have specific clinics where only their employees can go. Those seem to be moving faster.  Teacher friends of mine are getting an email with a link for priority registration.  But there's nothing like that for the elderly.

I don't mind that they're doing that for first responders or health care workers, or daycare providers who were already open, but I think that given that our schools have been closed since March, keeping them closed a little longer to get the elderly vaccinated would make sense.  I also think that given that vaccinated people may spread, there are many people like me who will still have concerns about bring the virus home, and of course there are concerns about kids bringing the virus home. 

To be clear, I think that getting schools open should be high priority, but I find it frustrating that it wasn't a high enough priority to shut down bars and indoor dining and gyms and churches, but suddenly it's is such a high priority that it should be placed above keeping our elderly alive?  

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22 hours ago, Spy Car said:

Smart people who follow science run in my circle.

Bill

Why are numerous people calling out Peter Pan for wondering if vaccine refusal might be because CNA workers have a low level of education (which, as a group, they do) but no one utters a peep about Bill implying that people who refuse the vaccine aren't smart? 

 

 

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In my circles:

ER nurse who has specialty training in infectious disease and has worked directly with COVID patients from the beginning of the pandemic got his as soon as he possibly could. Politically he's a moderate. He's very pro-mask, social distancing, following CDC guidelines, and staying open for businesses following CDC guidelines. (I've personally heard him voice his political views.)

Labor and delivery nurse got hers as soon as she could. She posted about it on FB. She doesn't post her political views on FB and I haven't heard her talk about them in person.

New nurse (don't know what her specialty is, I think it's hospice or debilitating diseases because her teenaged son died of one and she wanted help others in that same situation) got hers as soon as she could and posted about it on FB.  She doesn't post about politics.

CNA who objectively and neutrally has a relatively low level of education compared to other medical staff with much higher, more specialized levels of education, has high school diploma, CNA training, refuses to get it.  Very right wing, populist views. Is anti-mask, anti-distancing, anti-closures of any kind. (I've seen multiple FB posts from her on politics addressing each of these things.)

Edited by Homeschool Mom in AZ
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1 hour ago, katilac said:

Why are numerous people calling out Peter Pan for wondering if vaccine refusal might be because CNA workers have a low level of education

Or missing that I very plainly said some of the NURSES were idiots and not wearing their masks properly even. The head nurse I saw wearing her mask half off is now gone and they have a whole new team, new director, etc. who seem much more on the ball. So I'm calling them idiots because I saw what they were doing, not because of some elitist statement about a segment of the workforce. 

I've been quite clear on the boards here that I am not in favor of the general mask mandates, etc. etc. but I don't have the time of day for someone who's rebellious enough, sloppy enough, uncaring enough, unconscientious enough, whatever it is driving it, to not make sure your stupid face is actually in the mask if you're wearing it. I don't think I should have to mask to go to Walmart, but if I'm going to mask my face is covered. And if I walk in a store and it says to cover my face, I do it. I don't sit there half pulling it down and playing games and leaving my nose out. And I don't care what somebody's education level is (I've seen it across levels), it really bugs me. And in a health care setting, where people's lives and freedom of movement are on the line depending on how conscientious you are to basic protocols, it's just unacceptable. 

 

Edited by PeterPan
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I really like the point some have made here that the *leadership* has a role in this, building trust, providing information. And maybe hearing the pushback from the families will move that up the priority list. It's a new director, literally been in just a couple weeks, so he has an uphill climb, digging out of some bad habits things had fallen into, etc. The building was fine, food fine, but that staff/management relationship was not happening adequately. 

So y'all could be onto something that he heard us and he's going to quietly be talking with his people to help them get on board.

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