Why are health care workers refusing the vaccine at high rates?

[PeterPan]

And I'll preface this that my dad is in assisted living and apparently only 60% of the staff took the vaccine. Even if my dad is FULLY VACCINATED, per the CDC he will still have to quarantine TWO WEEKS if he has a "known exposure." So I'm completely pissed at the morals and ethics of this.

So please, just tell me in plain english, why are 40% of the health care workers refusing the vaccine? It can't be for safety, because the few deaths have been directly attributable to known patterns. (having recently had covid, one dude was actually POSITIVE FOR COVID WHEN HE TOOK THE SHOT)

Is it literally something basic, like these are low education workers and they are hearing some kind of provocative garbage? Is it political because it's a "Trump" vaccine and some donkey's butt politicians made hay over that?

What is going on?? And is the refusal rate lower in some settings than others? And just to be clear, are these employers legally allowed to require it?

 

Edited February 19, 2021 by PeterPan

[mathnerd]

My theory is that these people might think that they have had so much exposure during the peak of the epidemic that there is no way that they did not get infected already (asymptomatic if they did not have a diagnosis). They might be already immune to it, in their own opinions. Just a theory. Not saying that there is no hesitancy for other reasons.

[gardenmom5]

I don't know - dd was telling me when she will be eligible to receive it (she's still not eligible - but next week maybe?).  she doesn't (generally) have direct patient contact, but does have direct contact with others that do.

[klmama]

I've read of some health care workers not getting it because it's a completely new type of vaccine, they think it was rushed to market (clinical trials aren't finished yet), and they don't believe all of the negative effects it causes are being properly attributed to it.  Basically, the same reasons others don't want to get it.   

 

[ksr5377]

My mom is a nurse who is still working on a floor in a hospital caring for Covid patients and is refusing the vaccine.  I also find it frustrating.  Her argument is that she has seen quite a few new drugs come out through the years that had eventual long-term consequences and she consistently holds to the standard that she won't take something unless it has been out for 10 years.  It makes me very concerned as she plans on working for at least 2 more years and has terrible asthma.  She has admitted she would be very likely to have to serious case but still refuses.  

[Amira]

40% of health care workers are refusing the vaccine?  Is this in one area?  The entire US?  All types of health care workers? I've seen a huge range in estimates on this and I'm curious about the data you're looking at.

[Jenny in Florida]

A quick visit to Google news turned up several pieces addressing this issue. This is one I found most helpful.

Also, this one:

"Since the start of the pandemic, this workforce has been further exploited. They have often had to work in facilities that were severely short-staffed, without adequate personal protective equipment or rapid COVID testing. Many staff did not receive hazard or hero pay despite working in the most dangerous of conditions. Not surprisingly, many staff do not trust management at the facilities where they work."

"Given the lack of trust among caregivers, staff don’t just need more information about the safety of the vaccine; they need to hear this message from a trusted source. Some facilities with better employer-employee relationships have been able to have these discussions, as a recent New Yorker article notes."

 

 

Edited February 19, 2021 by Jenny in Florida

[PeterPan]

22 minutes ago, mathnerd said:

My theory is that these people might think that they have had so much exposure during the peak of the epidemic that there is no way that they did not get infected already (asymptomatic if they did not have a diagnosis). They might be already immune to it, in their own opinions. Just a theory. Not saying that there is no hesitancy for other reasons.

Now that actually makes sense. And yeah, if the staff person had the virus within the last few months, I agree not only are they already immune but there seems to be a higher rate of reactions in that window. So yeah, that actually seems reasonable.

5 minutes ago, Amira said:

40% of health care workers are refusing the vaccine?  Is this in one area?  The entire US?  All types of health care workers? I've seen a huge range in estimates on this and I'm curious about the data you're looking at.

This number was specific to my dad's AL. 

[plansrme]

43 minutes ago, PeterPan said:

Is it literally something basic, like these are low education workers and they are hearing some kind of provocative garbage? Is it political because it's a "Trump" vaccine and some donkey's butt politicians made hay over that?

What is going on?? And is the refusal rate lower in some settings than others? And just to be clear, are these employers legally allowed to require it?

 

Well if that isn't a snotty thing to suggest about the people caring for your father, that they are too stupid and uneducated to make a reasonable decision about a vaccine.

Can employers legally require it? Probably. Will they? My healthcare clients (hospitals mostly) are constantly, desperately trying to attract workers. If 60% of their existing workforce doesn't want to take a vaccine, are you really going to risk alienating them and 60% of their potential replacements by requiring it? 

[QueenCat]

It is disturbing. 

[PeterPan]

4 minutes ago, Jenny in Florida said:

A quick visit to Google news turned up several pieces addressing this issue. This is one I found most helpful.

Also, this one.

 

So it's emotion. Not facts, just stress, worry, emotion. 

That 2nd article mentions paying, and that seems like lawsuits waiting to happen, mercy. If they're required and have reactions, someone is going to sue. 

But that point about a "slow yes" is interesting. That's a way to think about it, that just because they haven't done it *yet* doesn't mean they're not going to *eventually*. Apparently some of the residents refused the shot too, and the director thinks there will be a turn around as they see things changing and see how restrictions lift for those who take the vaccine and don't for those who refuse. Literally, those who refuse the vaccine as residents will have to continue to quarantine any time they go have a day with their family, whatever. And they've been told in writing they'll have to continue to mask when masking is lifted. And their quarantine requirements for exposure will be stricter. So I'm surprised any family member is choosing not to have their loved one vaccinated, only because they're going to spend so much time locked down.

[J-rap]

Are you in Ohio?  I've heard there's a higher number of health care workers in Ohio who are choosing not to get it, especially at assisted living facilities.  According to articles I've read, it's mostly because they've been listening to misinformation that says since the vaccine was produced so quickly, it's not safe and can cause permanent changes to your DNA which will result in problems down the road.  (Not true.)

At least in our state, this doesn't seem to be an issue.

[PeterPan]

1 minute ago, J-rap said:

Are you in Ohio?  I've heard there's a higher number of health care workers in Ohio who are choosing not to get it, especially at assisted living facilities.  According to articles I've read, it's mostly because they've been listening to misinformation that says since the vaccine was produced so quickly, it's not safe and can cause permanent changes to your DNA which will result in problems down the road.  (Not true.)

At least in our state, this doesn't seem to be an issue.

My dad is in a different state. And yes, I'm frustrated at the junk from ALL sides on this. The idiot governors and politicians who said it shouldn't be trusted unless they redid whatever. The far right dude (Todd Herman? I forget) who kept going on and on about how it shouldn't be trusted because it was going to make you infertile and fry your guts. (hyperbole) And the idiot NVIC that keeps putting out inflammatory articles saying it's going to get you while citing stories like the unfortunate case of a health care worker who did within 4 days of taking it WHEN HE WAS POSITIVE WITH COVID.

I mean seriously, right now in my mind they're ALL idiots.

I want my dad out of lock down and I don't want him locked down ever again. That's it. And there is a distinct lack of patriotism and altruism in this country right now.

 

[Mrs Tiggywinkle]

23 minutes ago, ksr5377 said:

My mom is a nurse who is still working on a floor in a hospital caring for Covid patients and is refusing the vaccine.  I also find it frustrating.  Her argument is that she has seen quite a few new drugs come out through the years that had eventual long-term consequences and she consistently holds to the standard that she won't take something unless it has been out for 10 years.  It makes me very concerned as she plans on working for at least 2 more years and has terrible asthma.  She has admitted she would be very likely to have to serious case but still refuses.  

This. I know several ER doctors and nurses who feel like this. They understand the science but personally will not get a vaccine until it has some more safety trials and long term data.  These are highly educated people. I think the majority have chosen to get vaccinated, but there are many that have not. 40% seems about right to me.

I also do not see, in the medical circles I am in personally and the larger Facebook groups I am a part of, the same fear of Covid that I see in the general public. I don’t know any medical professionals who are still stripping their clothes at the door or isolating from their families, or anyone else. I personally know, however, an NP/ICU RN couple that spent last week in Aruba, a pediatric nurse practitioner and her medical professor husband who have routinely travelled back and forth to Florida, an ER doctor who officiated a 200 person wedding where no one masked(against all laws and regulations but it’s not heavily policed on private property, which this was), several ER nurses who are also traveling frequently.  Many have already had Covid and many are fatalistic, strongly believing it’s going to be a seasonal illness and we have to coexist with it.

 

[PeterPan]

9 minutes ago, plansrme said:

If 60% of their existing workforce doesn't want to take a vaccine, are you really going to risk alienating them and 60% of their potential replacements by requiring it? 

We have competing interests and values here. As the POA and person paying the bills and signing on the line, I have to fight for my dad's interest which is not being locked down any more. And they have their problem of keeping it staffed. 

 

[ktgrok]

I thought the new info was that a fully vaccinated person does NOT have to quarantine if exposed?

As for not getting it there are a myriad of reasons, most boiling down to distrust. 

[PeterPan]

1 minute ago, Mrs Tiggywinkle said:

I also do not see, in the medical circles I am in personally and the larger Facebook groups I am a part of, the same fear of Covid that I see in the general public.

Ahhh, that makes sense. Has your own feeling about it changed now that you've had it and developed long term effects? I'm sort of middle of the road for me personally btw. I don't go out much but do travel. I am doing what's important, so I guess you could call it fatalism, lol. 

My problem here is advocating for my dad. It's how do we give everyone that freedom but still let my dad have his freedom, kwim? I think maybe the CDC is going too far with this 14 days if a known exposure even when you've had the vaccine. That seems just so over the top excessive to me. If they tossed that, we'd have no issue.

 

[PeterPan]

Just now, ktgrok said:

I thought the new info was that a fully vaccinated person does NOT have to quarantine if exposed?

As for not getting it there are a myriad of reasons, most boiling down to distrust. 

I think you're nailing it. 

And yeah, I'm wondering if what the CDC is saying to AL is slightly different from the general public or something. The director said they're being sent very specific guidance, like down to how to resume group outings, etc. 

[wathe]

1 hour ago, PeterPan said:

Is it literally something basic, like these are low education workers and they are hearing some kind of provocative garbage?

 

 

44 minutes ago, plansrme said:

Well if that isn't a snotty thing to suggest about the people caring for your father, that they are too stupid and uneducated to make a reasonable decision about a vaccine.

 

In my experience, in my community, it is true that HCW vaccine uptake correlates strongly with level of education. 

I'm in  a large community hospital.  MD vaccine uptake has been 100% - I don't know a single doc who's refused it, and that includes those with soft relative contraindications, like pregnancy.  RN's I know only 4 who have declined, 2  because of relative contraindications and two for ideological reasons.  RPN' , more refusal.  PSW's, much higher rate of refusal.  Longterm care home staff have had the highest refusal rate of all.  High enough that vaccine got released early to hospital staff bc so many LTC staff were declining.

ETA the reasons for this are complex, I think.  I think higher levels of education do make it more likely that one can critically appraise the evidence and make science-based decisions (education gives one the tools and knowledge needed).  And I also think that those with lower levels of education are more distrustful of management.  And, those with higher education also have more power in the institutions than those with lower levels of education, which feeds into trust, I think. 

Edited February 19, 2021 by wathe

[Jenny in Florida]

21 minutes ago, PeterPan said:

So it's emotion. Not facts, just stress, worry, emotion. 

Umm, well, and a long history of not trusting the government when it comes to health care, for sometimes very good reasons.

As is usually true, people make decisions for complex, personal reasons.

[Jenny in Florida]

16 minutes ago, ktgrok said:

I thought the new info was that a fully vaccinated person does NOT have to quarantine if exposed?

(Whoops -- Sorry, I missed a more recent development.)

Apparently, the answer is no to quarantine under certain conditions:

https://www.phillyvoice.com/cdc-quarantine-guidelines-covid-19-vaccine/

Vaccinated people seeking to skip quarantine also must meet the following criteria:

• At least three months must have passed since they received their final COVID-19 doses. 
• They must have remained asymptomatic since their potential COVID-19 exposures.

Everyone else is instructed to quarantine for one to two weeks to determine whether they develop symptoms.

 

 

Edited February 19, 2021 by Jenny in Florida

[wathe]

19 minutes ago, ktgrok said:

I thought the new info was that a fully vaccinated person does NOT have to quarantine if exposed?

As for not getting it there are a myriad of reasons, most boiling down to distrust. 

 

Yes.  That update was published by the CDC about a week ago.  (Canada has not followed suit.  Quarantine rules here to not change with vaccination.  Yet.)

Updated quarantine recommendations for vaccinated persons. Fully vaccinated persons who meet criteria will no longer be required to quarantine following an exposure to someone with COVID-19.

[Mrs Tiggywinkle]

18 minutes ago, PeterPan said:

Ahhh, that makes sense. Has your own feeling about it changed now that you've had it and developed long term effects? I'm sort of middle of the road for me personally btw. I don't go out much but do travel. I am doing what's important, so I guess you could call it fatalism, lol. 

My problem here is advocating for my dad. It's how do we give everyone that freedom but still let my dad have his freedom, kwim? I think maybe the CDC is going too far with this 14 days if a known exposure even when you've had the vaccine. That seems just so over the top excessive to me. If they tossed that, we'd have no issue.

 

I am still personally middle of the road.   I am not enjoying Long Covid at all—but I also recognize that out of the 62 employees of my company and the 30-odd ER workers I know who had Covid the same time frame I did, I am the ONLY one who is still having any kind of problem.  So I would not attend a two hundred person illegal wedding, especially unmasked. But I am comfortable eating out, sending my kids to face to face school, shopping and having my kids participate in dance and gymnastics lessons.  I do live in NY where masking in mandatory and pretty much everyone does in public. 
I do have a few qualms about the variants and MIS-C in kids. I’ve seen around five very sick kids, one of whom did die of Covid(had MD and respiratory insufficiency to start with). But I also believe it’s endemic and we’ll eventually have to live our lives.  I don’t believe total isolation is healthy at all, especially not as long as it’s been.

[PeterPan]

8 minutes ago, Jenny in Florida said:

(Whoops -- Sorry, I missed a more recent development.)

Apparently, the answer is no to quarantine under certain conditions:

https://www.phillyvoice.com/cdc-quarantine-guidelines-covid-19-vaccine/

Vaccinated people seeking to skip quarantine also must meet the following criteria:

• At least three months must have passed since they received their final COVID-19 doses. 
• They must have remained asymptomatic since their potential COVID-19 exposures.

Everyone else is instructed to quarantine for one to two weeks to determine whether they develop symptoms.

 

 

Ooo, this is good! So after 3 months he won't have this at all? The AL is sayign they're rolling with the CDC. So if that's what the CDC is saying and the director didn't mention that longer term thing, then that's really good!!! Nuts, he may not know himself. I think they're just taking it one day at a time, lol.

[PeterPan]

7 minutes ago, wathe said:

 

Yes.  That update was published by the CDC about a week ago.  (Canada has not followed suit.  Quarantine rules here to not change with vaccination.  Yet.)

Updated quarantine recommendations for vaccinated persons. Fully vaccinated persons who meet criteria will no longer be required to quarantine following an exposure to someone with COVID-19.

I'm confused because what the CDC is saying here seems the inverse of what JennyD's link is saying. I like hers better, lol. Of course here the CDC seems to be saying not at all, which is not what the AL guy said. 

Maybe that CDC link is old? I don't know. (head spinning)

[PeterPan]

9 minutes ago, Mrs Tiggywinkle said:

I am not enjoying Long Covid at all—but I also recognize that out of the 62 employees of my company and the 30-odd ER workers I know who had Covid the same time frame I did, I am the ONLY one who is still having any kind of problem.

That's interesting. Do you think that those kind of stats are pretty common, with only 1% developing long covid?

[wathe]

2 minutes ago, PeterPan said:

I'm confused because what the CDC is saying here seems the inverse of what JennyD's link is saying. I like hers better, lol. Of course here the CDC seems to be saying not at all, which is not what the AL guy said. 

Maybe that CDC link is old? I don't know. (head spinning)

The news article that Jenny D lined to in turn links to the CDC article that I have linked to.  I think the news article she's linked to has actually misquoted.  I think they meant to quote this from the CDC article:

 

However, vaccinated persons with an exposure to someone with suspected or confirmed COVID-19 are not required to quarantine if they meet all of the following criteria^†:

• Are fully vaccinated (i.e., ≥2 weeks following receipt of the second dose in a 2-dose series, or ≥2 weeks following receipt of one dose of a single-dose vaccine)
• Are within 3 months following receipt of the last dose in the series
• Have remained asymptomatic since the current COVID-19 exposure

(Waiting until 3 month after your second shot in order to not have to quarantine doesn't make any sense. )

[wathe]

1 minute ago, wathe said:

The news article that Jenny D lined to in turn links to the CDC article that I have linked to.  I think the news article she's linked to has actually misquoted.  I think they meant to quote this from the CDC article:

 

However, vaccinated persons with an exposure to someone with suspected or confirmed COVID-19 are not required to quarantine if they meet all of the following criteria^†:

• Are fully vaccinated (i.e., ≥2 weeks following receipt of the second dose in a 2-dose series, or ≥2 weeks following receipt of one dose of a single-dose vaccine)
• Are within 3 months following receipt of the last dose in the series
• Have remained asymptomatic since the current COVID-19 exposure

(Waiting until 3 months after your second shot in order to not have to quarantine doesn't make any sense. )

ooops, quoted myself my mistake when I meant to edit.

Edited February 19, 2021 by wathe

[PeterPan]

1 minute ago, wathe said:

The news article that Jenny D lined to in turn links to the CDC article that I have linked to.  I think the news article she's linked to has actually misquoted.  I think they meant to quote this from the CDC article:

 

However, vaccinated persons with an exposure to someone with suspected or confirmed COVID-19 are not required to quarantine if they meet all of the following criteria^†:

• Are fully vaccinated (i.e., ≥2 weeks following receipt of the second dose in a 2-dose series, or ≥2 weeks following receipt of one dose of a single-dose vaccine)
• Are within 3 months following receipt of the last dose in the series
• Have remained asymptomatic since the current COVID-19 exposure

(Waiting until 3 month after your second shot in order to not have to quarantine doesn't make any sense. )

So what does the 3 months thing mean?? Are they saying they have no data for it being effective after 3 months and you have to resume quarantining?? 

[wathe]

Just now, PeterPan said:

So what does the 3 months thing mean?? Are they saying they have no data for it being effective after 3 months and you have to resume quarantining?? 

I think so.

[Mrs Tiggywinkle]

5 minutes ago, PeterPan said:

That's interesting. Do you think that those kind of stats are pretty common, with only 1% developing long covid?

It’s something like 10%. But most people who develop long Covid seem to have had a severe illness including hospitalization.  So my personal circles skew younger and reasonably healthy, so that would change my anecdotal data.  I do know two people who were hospitalized with Covid, one who died, but both were older with multiple comorbidities. 

[PeterPan]

1 minute ago, wathe said:

I think so.

You are not making my day here.

[Mrs Tiggywinkle]

5 minutes ago, wathe said:

The news article that Jenny D lined to in turn links to the CDC article that I have linked to.  I think the news article she's linked to has actually misquoted.  I think they meant to quote this from the CDC article:

 

However, vaccinated persons with an exposure to someone with suspected or confirmed COVID-19 are not required to quarantine if they meet all of the following criteria^†:

• Are fully vaccinated (i.e., ≥2 weeks following receipt of the second dose in a 2-dose series, or ≥2 weeks following receipt of one dose of a single-dose vaccine)
• Are within 3 months following receipt of the last dose in the series
• Have remained asymptomatic since the current COVID-19 exposure

(Waiting until 3 month after your second shot in order to not have to quarantine doesn't make any sense. )

This was the information I was given by our health department two weeks ago when my daughter had an exposure.  I asked what I would have to do if she tested positive as I am fully vaccinated.

[Spy Car]

All the healthcare works I know were chomping at the bit to get vaccinated and have either done so or or still in line due to lack of supply.

I think this is a false narrative.

Bill 

 

Edited February 19, 2021 by Spy Car

[frogger]

2 minutes ago, Spy Car said:

All the healthcare works I know were chomping at the bit to get vaccinated and have either done so or or still in line due to lack of supply.

I think this is a false narrative.

Bill 

 

I think it depends on where you live and who runs in your circle. 

[wathe]

4 minutes ago, PeterPan said:

You are not making my day here.

I think the guidance will evolve as the evidence does.  It's a responsible statement meant for right now.  There is good reason to hope that the vaccine will provide protection for much longer than 3 months, and I think the guidance will extend the window once the evidence exists.

[Mrs Tiggywinkle]

this is from December, but it indicates about 30% of healthcare workers indicated they would not be vaccinated. 
 

https://www.kff.org/coronavirus-covid-19/report/kff-covid-19-vaccine-monitor-december-2020/

[wathe]

3 minutes ago, Spy Car said:

All the healthcare works I know were chomping at the bit to get vaccinated and have either done so or or still in line due to lack of supply.

I think this is a false narrative.

Bill 

 

 

Just now, frogger said:

I think it depends on where you live and who runs in your circle. 

Yes and yes.

[Spy Car]

Just now, frogger said:

I think it depends on where you live and who runs in your circle. 

Smart people who follow science run in my circle.

Bill

[SKL]

1) They either know or suspect they already had Covid.

2) AFAIK it is not yet clear that being vaccinated prevents them from spreading Covid.

3) It only officially lasts 90 days; what then?

4) Side effects that are likely to cause them to miss paid work, even if they believe they aren't dangerous.

5) For much of the working public, considering 2 through 4 above, it goes back to their relatively low risk of dangerous symptoms even if they do catch Covid.

6) Or, the time is not right just yet.  After all, it has only been available for a very short time.

Edited February 19, 2021 by SKL

[Frances]

27 minutes ago, wathe said:

 

In my experience, in my community, it is true that HCW vaccine uptake correlates strongly with level of education. 

I'm in  a large community hospital.  MD vaccine uptake has been 100% - I don't know a single doc who's refused it, and that includes those with soft relative contraindications, like pregnancy.  RN's I know only 4 who have declined, 2  because of relative contraindications and two for ideological reasons.  RPN' , more refusal.  PSW's, much higher rate of refusal.  Longterm care home staff have had the highest refusal rate of all.  High enough that vaccine got released early to hospital staff bc so many LTC staff were declining.

ETA the reasons for this are complex, I think.  I think higher levels of education do make it more likely that one can critically appraise the evidence and make science-based decisions (education gives one the tools and knowledge needed).  And I also think that those with lower levels of education are more distrustful of management.  And, those with higher education also have to have more power in the institutions that those with lower levels of education, which feeds into trust, I think. 

This is very similar to what my husband, a HCW, sees at the same type of facility. 
 

For a ray of hope, my mom lives in a hard hit place in the Midwest in a senior apartment in a complex that also has assisted living, a nursing home, memory care, etc. They had 98% of staff and residents across all facilities get the first dose of the vaccine last month. I don’t know if it makes any difference, but relative to its size, the city has a very high number of people employed by healthcare systems and colleges. It is both an education and a healthcare hub for people from surrounding rural areas in three states.

[frogger]

I'm curious how many will participate once it is fully approved rather than just under a EUA. 

[Elizabeth86]

1 hour ago, Amira said:

40% of health care workers are refusing the vaccine?  Is this in one area?  The entire US?  All types of health care workers? I've seen a huge range in estimates on this and I'm curious about the data you're looking at.

I'm wondering too. My local hospital system is saying it's 50% in their hospitals. I saw a local nursing home with even lower percentage. I've been wondering how many people are refusing.

Edited February 19, 2021 by Elizabeth86

[Loowit]

I would think just outright refusal is probably due to a lack of trust whether it be political, past bad experience, or whatever.  I am not sure it is fair to say it is all emotions, but I am sure that plays a big role.  I have seen vaccine reactions that were severe and was not reported by the doctor until the second time the reaction happened after a nurse messed up and gave the wrong vaccine.  There are a lot of trust issues that go along with the medical field in general and with Covid specifically.  Some seem to be irrational, but some are understandable.

In my area, I am seeing a lot of people who are refusing or will refuse when eligible for the vaccine.  In the health care field, I am not sure.  I don't know a lot of people personally in health care at the moment.  My BIL who is a EMT has been fully vaccinated and a big proponent of it.  Many nurses around here don't seem to want it, but I think (hope) they are the vocal minority.  They also happen to be the ones that are downplaying the pandemic and giving out misinformation via social media.  They aren't seeing a lot of cases locally, so it isn't happening in their minds which is ridiculous since almost all of our county patients are sent out of county to better hospitals.

However, for some of the people who are eligible it isn't as easy as just sticking out your arm for the shot.  My brother is eligible, but just before the vaccine was available to him he had to get a tetanus shot, so it delayed how soon he could get it.  But he also has the complication of being on a medication he has to go off of for a week before he can get the vaccine.  I am hoping his doctor can work something out for him soon because he is very high risk and works as a reserve LEO (on desk duty until he can be vaccinated) and is a full time middle school teacher (having to use up sick days because they are going back in person).

[Katy]

Among those I know it’s 75% social media lies. And maybe 20% principled waiting for safety data.  And maybe 5% history of serious reactions that makes them personally dubious. 

[1234]

My mom is one who is refusing yet goes to the hospital every day for work. For her, she is scared due to the allergic reactions reported early on. As she has aged, she is finding out about new allergies constantly. Once, pre Covid, I was at the hospital eating lunch with her and she had a reaction to something she’s always eaten. It’s been scary for her and she’s just not going to trust these vaccines yet. I wish she would get it but there’s nothing I can do.

[Laurie]

2 hours ago, mathnerd said:

My theory is that these people might think that they have had so much exposure during the peak of the epidemic that there is no way that they did not get infected already (asymptomatic if they did not have a diagnosis).  

I'm not a medical person, but I've read that some doctors are concerned about the safety (cardiac-related) of giving the vaccine to people who have already been exposed.   The letter reprinted here is one example:

https://childrenshealthdefense.org/defender/surgeon-warns-fda-pfizer-immunological-danger-covid-vaccines-convalescent-asymptomatic-carriers/ 

[PeterPan]

21 minutes ago, Joker2 said:

As she has aged, she is finding out about new allergies constantly.

That makes sense that she's concerned. 

 

7 minutes ago, Laurie said:

I'm not a medical person, but I've read that some doctors are concerned about the safety (cardiac-related) of giving the vaccine to people who have already been exposed.   The letter reprinted here is one example:

https://childrenshealthdefense.org/defender/surgeon-warns-fda-pfizer-immunological-danger-covid-vaccines-convalescent-asymptomatic-carriers/ 

This fits what keeps popping in the news, sigh. 

So do you think this applies to us in a way? Like this last health care worker who passed was in his 50s. Now he was actively symptomatic and testing positive, which is nuts. But it's true the CDC guidelines are still allowing this. (was skimming from the link earlier in the thread) So if the CDC is not being responsive enough to the data, what should *we* do to stay safe? Would we all be safer if we were *tested* before vaccination? Or also tested for antibodies? Thing is, you can test negative one day and positive the next. Not sure you can win on that.

I guess it's only striking it's not happening more.

[Farrar]

There was literally an article I read a week or so ago about why so many elder care and nursing home staff were refusing the vaccine. And they suggested it was very high - maybe half? I'll see if I can find it. I think it was in WaPo. The experts they quoted suggested that it was the case that many of these workers were undereducated and BIPOC and/or immigrants - all groups that are resistant to taking the vaccine in general. Plus, unlike other healthcare workers, these folks did not have PPE all the time. They have lived with the virus for so long and some have become more accustomed to the risk in a different way from other healthcare workers.

[ktgrok]

1 hour ago, Spy Car said:

All the healthcare works I know were chomping at the bit to get vaccinated and have either done so or or still in line due to lack of supply.

I think this is a false narrative.

Bill 

 

I think it depends on who you are talking about - an MD, or the person that pushes the food cart from room to room. Both are health care workers, but different life experiences, education levels, trust in the system, etc etc. And then there is a racial element regarding historic and well understood mistrust in government entities when it comes to medicine. 

I'm hopeful that as people see others vaccinated and doing well they will reconsider.