Weekend discussion: whitewashing needed improvement

[Ginevra]

I know it’s not the weekend yet, but we have a snow day (actually, an ice day) here today, so I’m going to put this up now while I’m thinking of it. 

Perhaps you have seen this commercial on tv. In the commercial, a mom is reassuring her young daughter that she “loves it” and that dd is “very talented”, to which the girl respinds dejectedly, “I don’t believe you.” Then we see the mom’s face and clearly the situation is that the young girl did her mom’s makeup and the result is comically wrong. But the mom is reassuring dd that she made “many good decisions” and (ok, this part is honestly pretty sweet) that it makes her lips look bigger, “and I think I have small lips, so that’s good.” She cheers dd up and off they go to a BBQ. 

It’s sort of sweet and, if you ever had a perfectionistic kid who thinks things they have done well is garbage, you’ve probably been in a similar place. But this commercial also discomfits me, because I don’t think it’s best to tell a kid something is awesome if it is factually not. Kids know if they have done a good job or not and - setting aside perfectionists for a minute - I don’t think it best to try to convince them that a poor job is *actually* a very good job. This could lead to Special Snowflake Syndrome, where kiddo thinks everything they ever try is automatically marvelous; it kills commitment to learn how to do something better, to practice and improve. 

I know, I know, it’s just a commercial, but I do think there is a life-reflects-art element here and I wonder if many people think this exchange is healthy and normal. There are a whole range of possible responses in between saying it’s horrible and saying it’s beautiful when the kid clearly knows it isn’t. It didn’t turn out like the little girl had hoped. I wish the mother was acknowledging this and resolving to help her learn, practice, be a guinea pig, etc., until she does a job of which she can *actually* feel proud. 

What do you think? 

[Melissa Louise]

Depends on age of the kid. 3 year old painting my face? Everything is awesome. 

Older? Like, school age. Nope. Kids know when you're lying to them.

I'd find a genuine positive to mention. And a genuine suggestion for what might work better next time.

And understand that child might be sad her vision didn't work out, but hey, that's life and learning, baby girl. Every artist has experienced the same thing. 

I don't claim to be correct, btw. But this is how I'd deal. 

 

[Moonhawk]

2 hours ago, Quill said:

.... I know, I know, it’s just a commercial, but I do think there is a life-reflects-art element here and I wonder if many people think this exchange is healthy and normal. There are a whole range of possible responses in between saying it’s horrible and saying it’s beautiful when the kid clearly knows it isn’t. It didn’t turn out like the little girl had hoped. I wish the mother was acknowledging this and resolving to help her learn, practice, be a guinea pig, etc., until she does a job of which she can *actually* feel proud. 

On the whole I agree. But acknowledging not just a job well done but also a job well tried is important to having them try again. Sometimes the goal is to try again, not necessarily succeed next time. [I'm not saying you said that, just trying to clarify my own feelings]

There's usually at least one positive to be found in every situation. Sometimes they can only learn one thing at a time, so I just focus on one main thing to improve, max 2, when learning something still new. Basically, tailoring feedback to just what will be helpful/actionable immediately, not how much actually needs to be improved. A mountain is climbed one step at a time. 

With the makeup example," I love how much fun it was to do with you and the colors you chose look great with my outfit. Usually I only put lipstick on my lip parts because it is hard to wash off my regular face, but I like how you did the outline so carefully. And next time let's try out different brush types with the blush so you can see the different looks you can do with just one color. I can't believe how well you kept the foundation out of my hairline, I always have trouble with that! "

And, maybe this was a big improvement from last time, I'd want to make sure that she *does* feel proud of the progress, even if we aren't to the finish line yet.

eta: the more I think about this, I also would be more interactive for the entire process, giving continuous feedback, and also starting off the makeup session with a "last time, what did we say?, were you going to try a different brush for my cheeks?, or what did you want to try this time?" type of thing. So maybe that's why I see the positive reinforcement at the end as crucial, because we just went through a process of improvement, not just haphazardly gotten a result that can be improved. I am encouraging a process, not just a result. 

Edited February 18, 2021 by Moonhawk

[Carrie12345]

I have a kid who always excelled at all of the things people typically want their kid to excel at, and was never able to convince them to tone down their constant commentaries about his genius. It caused issues as he grew up and things got harder for him. People didn’t believe me from the get go, despite my own similar experience!  So, even when it is great, being defined by others as some sort of prodigy has its issues.

That said, all of my kids have heard “I love it!” for pretty much every little scribble they’ve made. Hey, I didn’t say it was perfect or that other people would appreciate it. I just let them know their mommy loved everything they touched. Maybe not the paint on the cat, but everything that made it to an appropriate surface. The rest of my kids do not have perfectionist issues.

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, Carrie12345 said:

I have a kid who always excelled at all of the things people typically want their kid to excel at, and was never able to convince them to tone down their constant commentaries about his genius. It caused issues as he grew up and things got harder for him. People didn’t believe me from the get go, despite my own similar experience!  So, even when it is great, being defined by others as some sort of prodigy has its issues.

That said, all of my kids have heard “I love it!” for pretty much every little scribble they’ve made. Hey, I didn’t say it was perfect or that other people would appreciate it. I just let them know their mommy loved everything they touched. Maybe not the paint on the cat, but everything that made it to an appropriate surface. The rest of my kids do not have perfectionist issues.

I can relate to that. That’s why I believe perfectionism is a different animal from this commercial. 

I know my mom viewed herself as always very encouraging and lauding us with praises but for me, that just amounted to pressure, as I felt I could never let everyone one down by being imperfect or not instantly magnificent at something. (She actually still heaps praises on me and I don’t know how to make her stop.) 

[Hillcottagemom]

I was bothered by the mom's "you are so talented and gifted" comment. The sentiment is nice. When parents say things like that, their intentions are good. In this case, she's reassuring her daughter that she's capable. But, in my experience, telling kids how smart and talented they are can create kids who are afraid to fail. Im happiest seeing my kids challenging themselves without fear of not appearing to be the best or smartest, and I model that for them by trying difficult things and having a sense of humor when someone is better than I am or it ends in disaster. (Thinking of some culinary debacles🤣)

I also suspect, given the age of the girl, that she realized it didnt look the way she'd intended it to. Id gently acknowledge that, because I want my kids to trust me to be honest them. Like Moonhawk, I'd focus on the effort, how much fun we had, her effort, her persistence. 

[Guest]

21 minutes ago, Hillcottagemom said:

I was bothered by the mom's "you are so talented and gifted" comment. The sentiment is nice. When parents say things like that, their intentions are good. In this case, she's reassuring her daughter that she's capable. But, in my experience, telling kids how smart and talented they are can create kids who are afraid to fail. Im happiest seeing my kids challenging themselves without fear of not appearing to be the best or smartest, and I model that for them by trying difficult things and having a sense of humor when someone is better than I am or it ends in disaster. (Thinking of some culinary debacles🤣)

I also suspect, given the age of the girl, that she realized it didnt look the way she'd intended it to. Id gently acknowledge that, because I want my kids to trust me to be honest them. Like Moonhawk, I'd focus on the effort, how much fun we had, her effort, her persistence. 

Right. I agree. I would also not do this fun thing before I actually was going out. Best to save it for a Friday night girls night in activity, so you don’t have to choose between taking off the makeup and doing it over so you will look presentable or whitewashing it and going out with the makeup intact as in the commercial. 

As I was thinking about this more, I thought about the Kids’ Baking Championships tv shows. I think the show’s judges usually hit the sweet spot between insincere praise and crushing criticism. They most often have something nice to say: creative idea, colors were great, it looks tasty, etc., even if ultimately that kid is going home. 

[Hillcottagemom]

11 minutes ago, Quill said:

Right. I agree. I would also not do this fun thing before I actually was going out. Best to save it for a Friday night girls night in activity, so you don’t have to choose between taking off the makeup and doing it over so you will look presentable or whitewashing it and going out with the makeup intact as in the commercial. 

As I was thinking about this more, I thought about the Kids’ Baking Championships tv shows. I think the show’s judges usually hit the sweet spot between insincere praise and crushing criticism. They most often have something nice to say: creative idea, colors were great, it looks tasty, etc., even if ultimately that kid is going home. 

Yes! I wondered if she was truly going to go out like that! Your point about the baking shows sparked a realization for me. We've been watching the older episodes of The Great British Baking Show, and the judges strike a nice balance of critique and praise on that show as well. One of my kids struggles with perfectionism, and I wonder if it's been helpful for him to watch the contestants handle their challenges and feedback with grace. I hope so😃

[katilac]

I think the commercial was so clearly exaggerated for the sake of the punchline (mom going out in public with the silly makeup) that it's not a helpful jumping off point for discussion. 

Also, the woman is wearing a long, flowing dress to a BBQ, clearly her judgement is impaired, lol. 

[Guest]

36 minutes ago, katilac said:

I think the commercial was so clearly exaggerated for the sake of the punchline (mom going out in public with the silly makeup) that it's not a helpful jumping off point for discussion. 

Also, the woman is wearing a long, flowing dress to a BBQ, clearly her judgement is impaired, lol. 

Lol, well there is a whole other discussion that could be had regarding those Inspired Closet commercials in general, like, notably, why do they always appear to be bougie white women? I guess there is only one demographic that would spend $15k on a magnificent closet system, so management’s hands are a bit tied...

[SKL]

Well, the mom went way overboard, and she chose the wrong time to let her kid practice make-up.  But it's a commercial.  I don't think anyone believes that would happen in real life?

I think it fails because the tone is wrong.  It should be funny and silly, but the tone makes it sound serious-sentimental.  Like any sane woman would appear in polite company in that make-up?  It would be seen as a sign of mental illness, seriously.

But to the concept in the OP - my normal approach is to acknowledge (a) what works and (b) what to work on.  There's always something you can praise without lying.  But kids don't get inspired by hearing "that was perfect."  They need to hear "you can build on this."

In addition, to me, it feels wrong to say "you are ___" unless to bring a child back to reality.  For example, I have one who sells herself short all the time.  That's not healthy either.  Because, per my kid, "all moms have to say their kids are smart," I present external evidence, e.g., "your honors teachers recommended you for honors next year.  Clearly you are intelligent."

[Guest]

41 minutes ago, Hillcottagemom said:

Yes! I wondered if she was truly going to go out like that! Your point about the baking shows sparked a realization for me. We've been watching the older episodes of The Great British Baking Show, and the judges strike a nice balance of critique and praise on that show as well. One of my kids struggles with perfectionism, and I wonder if it's been helpful for him to watch the contestants handle their challenges and feedback with grace. I hope so😃

That’s a good point. I would figure it couldn’t hurt. 

This was one of the things I always liked about my kids doing team sports. It was a lot of life lessons that things won’t always turn out as you hoped, even at times when you give your personal best. Win some, lose some. 

[JustEm]

I tell my kids that things like that were an awesome first try.  Because while it isn't perfect in any sense it is awesome that they had the confidence to try and skill to put the right makeup in the right spot for example.  Then I ask what they think turned out well about it and where they could improve.  But n a thirty second commercial clip I think the message there was fine.  The girl was upset.  It would be terrible for the mom to continue to pile on her by agreeing with her.

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, SKL said:

Well, the mom went way overboard, and she chose the wrong time to let her kid practice make-up.  But it's a commercial.  I don't think anyone believes that would happen in real life?

I think it fails because the tone is wrong.  It should be funny and silly, but the tone makes it sound serious-sentimental.  Like any sane woman would appear in polite company in that make-up?  It would be seen as a sign of mental illness, seriously.

But to the concept in the OP - my normal approach is to acknowledge (a) what works and (b) what to work on.  There's always something you can praise without lying.  But kids don't get inspired by hearing "that was perfect."  They need to hear "you can build on this."

In addition, to me, it feels wrong to say "you are ___" unless to bring a child back to reality.  For example, I have one who sells herself short all the time.  That's not healthy either.  Because, per my kid, "all moms have to say their kids are smart," I present external evidence, e.g., "your honors teachers recommended you for honors next year.  Clearly you are intelligent."

On the first bolded: I’m not certain. I think there *are* parents who are so eager not to have their child hear “something negative” about their creation that they would behave that way. 

I think you’re right about the tone. I don’t even think the scenario makes much sense with the product it is meant to promote. 

I agree very much with your last two paragraphs. Over the years, I have aimed to support my children's actions, decisions, efforts, NOT their born characteristics.   I say, “Wow! What an outstanding report card! You really have worked hard with a weird situation (hybrid school).” I don’t say, “You’re so brilliant!” 

My mom often says things as superlatives and it is often born characteristics, not effort she praises. So, she would say, “You are the prettiest girl in the whole school,” or, “You are the smartest girl in your grade.” She does it with my kids too, which I dislike, though at least it is most often buffered through me. 

[Storygirl]

The commercial has bothered me, but for a reason that I don't think has been mentioned. I keep picturing them walking into the BBQ and having everyone laugh and tease and make comments that the little girl can't fail to notice. That would not only negate the words that the mom said in the closet, but I think would make her feel betrayed, that her mom had not been truthful, and embarrassed.

I know it's fiction, and that they did not actually go to a BBQ! But my mind can't help picturing what will come next.

[JustEm]

15 minutes ago, Storygirl said:

The commercial has bothered me, but for a reason that I don't think has been mentioned. I keep picturing them walking into the BBQ and having everyone laugh and tease and make comments that the little girl can't fail to notice. That would not only negate the words that the mom said in the closet, but I think would make her feel betrayed, that her mom had not been truthful, and embarrassed.

I know it's fiction, and that they did not actually go to a BBQ! But my mind can't help picturing what will come next.

I guess it depends on the people you associate with.

[Storygirl]

4 minutes ago, hjffkj said:

I guess it depends on the people you associate with.

Yes, but I wasn't even thinking about the comments being mean spirited. Just any comments by others would draw attention to the fact that the make up is extremely unusual. Unless the mom somehow tells people ahead of time to be prepared, I think there would be reactions.

[JustEm]

3 minutes ago, Storygirl said:

Yes, but I wasn't even thinking about the comments being mean spirited. Just any comments by others would draw attention to the fact that the make up is extremely unusual. Unless the mom somehow tells people ahead of time to be prepared, I think there would be reactions.

Maybe, maybe not. I've been that mom at family and friend gatherings, not as extreme but ridiculous makeup. No one mentioned anything because the only possible explanation was a child did it to me. 

But I certainly know people who would react poorly. With events with them I'd decline the make over from dd.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Storygirl said:

The commercial has bothered me, but for a reason that I don't think has been mentioned. I keep picturing them walking into the BBQ and having everyone laugh and tease and make comments that the little girl can't fail to notice. That would not only negate the words that the mom said in the closet, but I think would make her feel betrayed, that her mom had not been truthful, and embarrassed.

I know it's fiction, and that they did not actually go to a BBQ! But my mind can't help picturing what will come next.

I thought that too. (And ditto on knowing it’s fiction!) There are definitely people I know who would be so surprised to see me turning up to a party in strange makeup they couldn’t fail to register surprise or laugh and think I was playing some kind of prank. Certainly I know some people who likely would blurt out, “WHAT is going on with your makeup?!” And if my daughter had already been thinking, “Wow, that didn’t turn out like I pictured...” she would have that all over again when people commented or thought I was pranking. 

[Carrie12345]

8 hours ago, Quill said:

On the first bolded: I’m not certain. I think there *are* parents who are so eager not to have their child hear “something negative” about their creation that they would behave that way. 

Not specific to the given scenario, but...

I have a sibling who doesn’t want her kids to hear anything negative about anything. Like, ever. We grew up on sarcasm, wink-wink jokes/comments, and were born knowing the word facetious.  Our parents would “threaten” all sorts of audacious punishments we knew weren’t genuine, just an exaggerated and humorous way to tell us to cut it the heck out. I had my behind swatted ONCE in my life and I don’t think my sisters ever did, so there was no fear involved, and we egged them on all the time.

She and I have very similar parenting philosophies, but my implementation leans toward how I was raised (as does our other sibling’s), while she calls our childhood emotionally abusive. Which I guess she figures makes me emotionally abusive. 🤷‍♀️

Anyway, yeah. They’re not supposed to hear anything that could make them feel bad, whether they’ve drawn a picture or are actively misbehaving. It does appear to be a whole trend n some circles.
 

All that said, she does save make up time for when they’re not leaving the house, lol.

[SKL]

I tended to avoid telling my kids bad news also.  I probably should have been less protective.  I just feel like young kids have limited ability to see gray, i.e., that everyone, to some extent, is both good and bad, both perp and victim.  That every major advance is going to harm or leave out someone.  That doing the right thing doesn't mean nobody ever gets hurt.

That said, easing into the realities of life is a far cry from gushing over how amazing and gifted a child is for painting a clown face on mom.  😛

[Teaching3bears]

How many mothers have their small children do their makeup?  This commercial seemed very off to me.