“Repeating” Kindergarten?

[LilacLily]

Hello all,

I was invited to this board by PeterPan. My oldest is 5. He turns 6 at the end of May. I did not want to register him as a Kindergartner this past August. But due to our state laws, my only options were to register with a homeschool accountability group as a Kindergarten student or notify the school district that we were waiving kindergarten. I have no intentions to put my children in public school, Lord willing. So I registered him as a Kindergarten student this past August. 
 

He has a speech delay and is just now interested in learning letters/letter sounds. His SLP thinks he will be dismissed from therapy this year. I honestly just want to call him a Kindergartner for all of 2021. I contacted the accountability group and the director told me it’s perfectly fine to list him as a Kindergartner again next year. 
 

He also seems less “mature” per year that goes by than my daughter (who turns 4 in May). My concern long term is that it may be beneficial from an emotional standpoint for him to have an extra year to tackle various subjects and also be socially prepared for college/or the working world. I’m not articulating this very well. 
 

Has anyone does this? How did it go with your child then interacting with peers? His only peer group right now where it would be noticeable is the kids he’s already in a grade level group with at church. Right now he doesn’t even really remember he’s in Kindergarten. When someone asks what grade he’s in, he looks to me to ask. My husband is on board with him “repeating”. My biggest concern is whether or not he’s going to feel like an “outcast” in any extracurriculars when he’s one of the oldest in his “grade”. 

[PeterPan]

So I'm gonna talk both sides and not be too definitive here, though someone else will be. 

My dd was on the young end of her grade (late april bday) and we always sorta fudged, made it work. When we got to the end I wanted that year back and she was not having it. She really needed that extra bloom time but she also wanted to GO. 

So technically, if you look at the research, grade retention is not evidence based. It has significant problems, including not solving the instructional problems, discouraging the dc, and resulting in those problems later with a dc who is developmentally trying to launch but is being told to stay.

I can also tell you that the ps system will not (in general) want to do a grade retention at this age. You can and it's your right, sure. But they're not going to want to do that, because again it's not evidence based.

BUT I have talked with parents locally who had similar situations (autism, developmental delays, kids needing bloom time, and with their kids still admittedly young, they're saying it's great, that the adjustment helped immensely, etc. And some of them are adjusting for social reasons and the social delay (of autism) because the dc is fine academically. So for the way they see it, the dc would not have gotten an IEP for specialized instruction and the social retention seemed to solve the problem.

I don't know anyone far enough along (kids graduated) to say it worked out well for them to do social retention. I think it COULD and the REASON would involve that the instruction fit the dc. If it's retention for academics and the instruction stays the same, you haven't solved the problem.

You also have the option to retain *later*. My ds has significant delays (ASD2, SLDs, you name it) and it seems inevitable that he should be retained at some point just so he has enough time in the system to continue to receive services and get where he can get to. He has a fall b-day, so he's already on the older end of his grade. I will probably do that retention AFTER 7th grade, ie. repeating 7th grade. That will get him into the church youth group, which I'm hoping will give him more social opportunities. 

So sometimes the timing of the grade retention/adjustment matters.

Things I see? 

-competition between siblings by bringing them closer in grade

-social is not an issue. He's oblivious. The question is where he fits well. You don't want to retain and shut doors where he would fit in the upper group better. And most homeschool activities are open to a range of grades, meaning it won't matter. Now I say that, and I just registered my ds for a homeschool class/activity that he's very ready for, very capable of doing, that he would not be able to go into had he been retained. So walking that line of teaching where he is, having an IEP, not grade adjusting YET is working out for my ds.

-what is the NEED to do this now? What is the BENEFIT of doing this now? Does your state of a certainty require a grade level to be marked on your notification forms? Do they require standardized test scores to follow that up? Our state wants to see test scores *or* a portfolio review where the reviews states your dc is performing at ability level.

Are you open to evals? The best way to get good information to make decisions is to get full evals. A psychologist could do a full eval on him and give you some good advice or whether grade retention would fit his situation well. You'd be looking for an eval where the psych spends 6-8 hours, preferrably a neuropsych or educational psych. 

I'm going to pair this with your reading thread and suggest that grade retention should not be used in place of intervention. If he needs intervention level materials, he should receive them rather than grade retention.

Fwiw, my ds seemed just sorta quirky odd at 5/6. He had SO much language from SO much speech therapy that people would be inconclusive and we got odd (later determined inaccurate) answers from psychs. By 8/9 his ASD was very obvious, as his peers pulled away, and at that point his ADOS scores and psych eval put him at support level 2. But our initial evals at newly 6 said ADHD plus social with dyslexia and that he was gifted explaining all the odd behaviors. So you're going to have a journey and some things take time to UNFOLD and become apparent. 

Edited February 18, 2021 by PeterPan

[PeterPan]

Sorry, I keep adding to my post, hahaha. But it's a long topic. I see a lot of my ds in your ds. And I could be reading into it, but just saying. 

[Storygirl]

Three out of four of my kids officially started kindergarten at age 6 (though we were homeschooling back then, and I was doing reading and other things with them at age 5, as well.

Sometimes my one son will mention that he thinks he is the oldest or one of the oldest in his (public) high school class, but it doesn't bother him and is not a big deal at all. Right now, he is getting to learn to drive a little earlier than his same-grade peers, and that is cool and not a drawback, socially.

My other son is young for his age (he has autism plus ADHD plus other disabilities), and he shows no care at all that he is old for his grade, and he definitely does not seem older than his same-grade peers. The only issue for him is that he will be age 18 at the end of his junior year, and at age 18, he legally becomes responsible for his own IEP, and he could start to refuse disability services while he is still in high school, and we cannot prevent that without getting guardianship or an educational POA.

You would not face that issue for a very long time, if at all, so I would not allow that to influence your decision. It is just the only drawback that we have encountered, so I wanted to mention it.

My daughter sometimes mentions that her friends are surprised to learn that she is a year older than some of them. But she has a summer birthday, and there are plenty of other summer-born kids who are old for their grade, instead of young for their grade. There have been no issues.

For church, we just kept them in the classes with their friends and didn't care whether they were a grade behind academically. My nephew (who is now 20) also remained with his Sunday school / youth group peers, even though he was a grade behind them. We happened to move and join a new church when my kids were late elementary, and at that point, we jumped them a year ahead in Sunday school and youth group, so that they would be with kids their own age. That means that when they were in 8th grade for school, they were in high school for church and youth group. They will just be in the high school youth group for five years, instead of four, and it won't matter.

Do what is right for your kid, and it won't really matter down the line, one way or the other. There are enough people who start kindergarten at age 6 instead of age 5 that no one will care.

[Storygirl]

About my fourth child -- she was learning to read at age 4, so I thought I might as well consider her a kindergartener (we were homeschooling), but then in first grade, it was evident to me that she was not going to be ready for second grade math and writing skills, despite her early reading. So the next year, we counted the fall as a third semester of first grade, and then also did three semesters of second grade. So we slowed her back down to be at her typical grade level. It proved to be the right choice for her, as she was on target with peers from there, forward.

[Storygirl]

I think it's much easier to grade adjust when kids are little than to wait until they are older. There is kid in my son's high school class who repeated 8th grade, and my son knew it, because they used to be at the same private school previously, and the kid used to be a grade above him and now is not. There is a stigma attached at the middle school level, with repeating a grade, and I'm sure the family did it, because they switched schools, and figured the students at the new school would not know.

[LilacLily]

20 minutes ago, PeterPan said:

So I'm gonna talk both sides and not be too definitive here, though someone else will be. 

My dd was on the young end of her grade (late april bday) and we always sorta fudged, made it work. When we got to the end I wanted that year back and she was not having it. She really needed that extra bloom time but she also wanted to GO. 

So technically, if you look at the research, grade retention is not evidence based. It has significant problems, including not solving the instructional problems, discouraging the dc, and resulting in those problems later with a dc who is developmentally trying to launch but is being told to stay.

I can also tell you that the ps system will not (in general) want to do a grade retention at this age. You can and it's your right, sure. But they're not going to want to do that, because again it's not evidence based.

BUT I have talked with parents locally who had similar situations (autism, developmental delays, kids needing bloom time, and with their kids still admittedly young, they're saying it's great, that the adjustment helped immensely, etc. And some of them are adjusting for social reasons and the social delay (of autism) because the dc is fine academically. So for the way they see it, the dc would not have gotten an IEP for specialized instruction and the social retention seemed to solve the problem.

I don't know anyone far enough along (kids graduated) to say it worked out well for them to do social retention. I think it COULD and the REASON would involve that the instruction fit the dc. If it's retention for academics and the instruction stays the same, you haven't solved the problem.

You also have the option to retain *later*. My ds has significant delays (ASD2, SLDs, you name it) and it seems inevitable that he should be retained at some point just so he has enough time in the system to continue to receive services and get where he can get to. He has a fall b-day, so he's already on the older end of his grade. I will probably do that retention AFTER 7th grade, ie. repeating 7th grade. That will get him into the church youth group, which I'm hoping will give him more social opportunities. 

So sometimes the timing of the grade retention/adjustment matters.

Things I see? 

-competition between siblings by bringing them closer in grade

-social is not an issue. He's oblivious. The question is where he fits well. You don't want to retain and shut doors where he would fit in the upper group better. And most homeschool activities are open to a range of grades, meaning it won't matter. Now I say that, and I just registered my ds for a homeschool class/activity that he's very ready for, very capable of doing, that he would not be able to go into had he been retained. So walking that line of teaching where he is, having an IEP, not grade adjusting YET is working out for my ds.

-what is the NEED to do this now? What is the BENEFIT of doing this now? Does your state of a certainty require a grade level to be marked on your notification forms? Do they require standardized test scores to follow that up? Our state wants to see test scores *or* a portfolio review where the reviews states your dc is performing at ability level.

Are you open to evals? The best way to get good information to make decisions is to get full evals. A psychologist could do a full eval on him and give you some good advice or whether grade retention would fit his situation well. You'd be looking for an eval where the psych spends 6-8 hours, preferrably a neuropsych or educational psych. 

I'm going to pair this with your reading thread and suggest that grade retention should not be used in place of intervention. If he needs intervention level materials, he should receive them rather than grade retention.

Fwiw, my ds seemed just sorta quirky odd at 5/6. He had SO much language from SO much speech therapy that people would be inconclusive and we got odd (later determined inaccurate) answers from psychs. By 8/9 his ASD was very obvious, as his peers pulled away, and at that point his ADOS scores and psych eval put him at support level 2. But our initial evals at newly 6 said ADHD plus social with dyslexia and that he was gifted explaining all the odd behaviors. So you're going to have a journey and some things take time to UNFOLD and become apparent. 

Oh wow, this is so helpful. I am definitely open to evaluating him. My husband and my brother have ADHD and I know that apparently has some hereditary influence? He shows some symptoms of ADHD hyperactivity but he’s able to focus on things he’s interested in for a long time. Last year I was looking up some of his behavioral issues and they *somewhat aligned with ODD but those behaviors have started to dissipate. At this point, he seems to get along with non family member children. But I’m not sure how that will play out in later years. I myself have a lot of sensory issues but I have never been diagnosed with anything. I think my mom just thought I was very sensitive to sounds, lights, foods, etc and she thought I was “emotional”. As an adult, I’ve seen the list and I check off almost every single box for an SPD. I don’t know if that’s hereditary? It sounds like I may need to find a new pediatrician because my current one thinks “that’s normal” when I’ve brought up questions before. 

[Storygirl]

So after starting my oldest in K at age 4, why did I decide to start my younger three at age 6? I'll share a little, just in case it helps.

My second child, DS16, had speech delay as a toddler and was obviously ADHD (though he didn't get that diagnosis until age 9). I was working with him on some early academics -- just coloring pages with the letters of the alphabet, and so on -- when he was four, turning 5, and it was completely clear that he was not ready.

My three youngest are very, very close in age, due to us being an adoptive family. DS16 is 8 months older than DS15, who is 5 months older than DD15, so all three of them are within a year or less of each other. I grouped them together for school time as much as possible, even when working on preschool and early kindergarten academics. We did a lot of manipulative math things to learn numbers and counting, worked on calendar skills, had lots of readalouds, and practiced learning letters and did phonemic awareness activities like clapping out syllables for words (because I already suspected DD15 was dyslexic). 

So we worked on those things during what would have been their typical K year, and then kept working on them, increasing the difficultly as needed, through the year that they were 6, as well. And it was great for them, because it is what they needed.

I decided that DS16 clearly should be considered K at age 6. No question.

I then had to decide whether DS15 and DD15 should be in the same grade with DS16 or the year below. Both of them were having various issues with learning, and we thought a slower, more deliberate pace with academics in the early years would suit them better. So we decided that all three of them would start K at age 6.

And I've always been glad that we took that extra time in the early years and have never regretted it.

Edited February 18, 2021 by Storygirl

[LilacLily]

I should add, the ODD appearing behavior issues were only happening at home. He attended a “hybrid” homeschool 3K & 4K program and got excellent marks all but 2-3 days the whole year for behavior. And his teachers always said he was attentive and obedient in class. The behaviors were limited to at home. 

[PeterPan]

41 minutes ago, LilacLily said:

the ODD appearing behavior issues

ODD type behavior is usually considered to have an anxiety component underlying it. With my ds they kind of walk a line. The private psych says call it ASD2 and see how much will improve with ABA and supports. The school says call it ODD. So when you're saying sorta there but not quite, I'm going to go back to the spectrum question. 

You mentioned having sensory issues. Does he? 

A typically developing dc does fine with typical parenting. We have all kinds of parents and parenting styles on the board, from really free range to highly structured, but kids without disabilities usually are FINE no matter how the parent parents. The kid makes the inferences, figures out who is in charge and how the world works, gets cause effect, and it comes together. 

Then you've got kids who don't pick up the clue phone, who don't get the order to the world, who is in charge. Kids who don't learn from cause/effect so they don't respond well to the discipline strategies you try. Kids for whom things backfire. You say no, they dig in. 

So yes, if preschool is high support, not making a lot of demands, high structure, very predictable, there are a lot of reasons why he might have less behaviors there! And that is when you start asking what they are doing that you aren't, kwim? 

The way the psych put it to me was that I was trying hard, but I needed to step up on a chair so I could get there. I needed something to help me STEP IT UP. Evals can do that and getting connected with the people who can teach you how to step it up (and why) can do that. 

The goal is zero behaviors. But it can be hard to get there in reality, sigh. But it's really important that you sort out why and not be like oh they went away, like they were a common cold. Did you make a change or did something change?

https://www.socialthinking.com/Articles?name=social-thinking-social-communication-profile  This article might interest you. What the people doing the Social Thinking intervention found was that needs crossed labels. So whether you call the dc ODD or ADHD or ASD or NVLD or no label at all, they might all need THE SAME THINGS. And also there were distinct differences, patterns they grew into. And at 6 it's not so apparent, but by 8/9 it really will be. Like I was saying about my ds, things were not so obvious at 6 as they were at 8/9. 

So you could read the article, see where you think he falls, see if you fall anywhere. Yes it's heritable, but people are individuals. We're going to meet them where they are.

 

[PeterPan]

https://www.amazon.com/Stuck-Strategies-What-Students-STUCK/dp/1937473996/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=stuck+strategies&qid=1613679936&sr=8-1  A favorite book for the no/oppositional thing.

If it goes on a lot longer, try this book https://www.amazon.com/Behavior-Code-Practical-Understanding-Challenging/dp/1612501362/ref=sr_1_1?crid=1RF47QLQ7QXNN&dchild=1&keywords=behavior+code+by+jessica+minahan&qid=1613679988&sprefix=behavior+code%2Caps%2C172&sr=8-1  I actually went to a full day training with the author, which was amazing.

But start with Stuck Strategies first. There's also a good book on VBA, etc. But start with one thing, take a step. 

Fwiw, when I first started filling out forms for my ds, I was significantly under identifying behaviors. I didn't notice them and maybe theyw ere normal in my world. It was only as we got the 2nd parent filling out forms that the severe discrepancy became obvious. So anything you can do for YOURSELF is going to be helpful. For instance, check out https://www.kelly-mahler.com/what-is-interoception/  This is for YOU. The line between SPD and ASD is almost meaningless and if you look at the forms for diagnosing each they're almost identical. Oh I know I've had OTs swear SPD occurs in isolation. Fine, whatever. But the forms and questions are almost identical and it's a door you end up needing to knock on. 

So just a suggestion, but you're going to want a psych who can do the ADOS on him and not rely on forms.

Edited February 18, 2021 by PeterPan

[PeterPan]

1 hour ago, LilacLily said:

got excellent marks all but 2-3 days the whole year for behavior.

How was he when he came home? Did he need down time or seem fatigued?

[Storygirl]

2 hours ago, LilacLily said:

I should add, the ODD appearing behavior issues were only happening at home. He attended a “hybrid” homeschool 3K & 4K program and got excellent marks all but 2-3 days the whole year for behavior. And his teachers always said he was attentive and obedient in class. The behaviors were limited to at home. 

The diagnostic criteria for ODD only requires one environment, so happening at home but not at school would qualify. One psych did give DS16 the ODD diagnosis, and when we questioned it, because it was only happening at home, he said that is often the case. When DS would be in a group (such as a gymnastics or church when we were homeschooling, or a classroom, once he was in school), he would fall quiet and would not be disruptive or argumentative, as he often/always behaved at home.

You mention the ODD behaviors in past tense, so I'm not sure if you are still dealing with them. But I will say that for DS, medication has really helped. ADHD meds made his behavior tolerable and raised his ability to get along with others at home, even as they increased his ability to focus at school. If I could quantify it, I would say that the meds allowed his behavior to improve by 50%, which was like a night and day difference.

But things were still really hard, so we pursued more evaluations, and five years after his first set of evaluations (which covered a lot more than the ADHD question and were so, so helpful), the psych who (finally) diagnosed his ASD suggested that we revisit his medication options. We started seeing a psychiatric nurse practitioner, who was able to both tweak his current meds, plus add a medication for anxiety/mood. The anti-anxiety medication made another huge, huge, huge difference (though it took a few months to reach its full effect), and now I think DS would not qualify for ODD any more. But when he is off the meds, the arguing resumes.

I think that if you have not had evaluations other than for the speech issues, that you would probably find it helpful. Know that it's not uncommon for complicated kiddos to end up being evaluated more than once, as time goes on. Because as he grows, you may see new issues pop up, or see the things that you have always seen continue to need more or different intervention.

The fact that you are asking questions and looking into things now while he is five, is really good. Early intervention is really helpful. Since he has had speech issues and seems slow with the beginning steps of reading, doing some evaluations might help target for you the areas where he will benefit from extra intervention.

Because I agree with PeterPan that for some issues, just giving extra time (like waiting an extra year for academics) will not be enough to make a difference, and intervention may be needed. Getting evaluations would help you know.

Did you know that you can request for your public school to screen for learning disabilities for free, even when you are a homeschooler? I wanted to mention that, so that you will know. But also, you are likely to get more information from a private evaluation from an educational psychologist. If you suspect autism, there are different evaluations, and you would need to look for a psych who specializes in autism. You have not mentioned autism, but I am just bringing it up, because plenty of psychs missed DS's autism, before we went to someone who was specially trained and knew what to look for.

(Sometimes speech delay is just a speech problem. But it can be an early red flag for autism, if there are also other issues at play.)

Please don't quote, as I may remove some personal details later.

[kbutton]

Locally, a lot of parents redshirt for sports (or try for fall babies to be the oldest in class), so an older kindergartener would not be unusual. 

I think late maturing boys are the least likely category of kids to be "harmed" by grade adjusting early on. Early maturing girls are more iffy by far. One of my kids has a girl in his Sunday School that dwarfed him and had a woman's body in 5th and 6th grade, and he was in the 99th %ile for height at the time. I don't think she was held back--I think she was just a late start at 6. Not sure. She's likely dyslexic, has ADHD, etc. 

I know several kids who were grade adjusted maybe late elementary (some were maybe earlier) and graduated at 19/20, I believe, and it was a good fit (borderline intellectual disabilities, sometimes ASD or ADHD too)--some involved district changes or changes from homeschool to public school. I know another who had a very, very late ASD diagnosis (normal IQ), and he used his IEP power to defer his diploma. In that last instance, it was something the whole family agreed upon, and the student was happy. He walked with his class at graduation but stayed in school (and was at a vocational school, so he was getting vocational training that isn't a part of regular high school).

[Terabith]

We had my youngest, whose birthday is at the end of April, do an extra year of preschool, but we considered her her age grade until it was time for her to go to brick and mortar school when she was 9.  She could never remember as a homeschooler what grade she was in, and she had some learning disabilities that made it make sense to hold her back a year, as well as seeming emotionally super young.  She had a radical jump in maturity, and I'm not 100% sure it was the best call in the long run, but she's excelling academically, and I'm quite sure she wouldn't have if she was in her "age grade."  

[LilacLily]

18 hours ago, PeterPan said:

How was he when he came home? Did he need down time or seem fatigued?

He would usually be in a good mood but he did need some down time afterwards. 

[PeterPan]

Just now, LilacLily said:

He would usually be in a good mood but he did need some down time afterwards. 

That's something you'll watch for because it indicates whether he was stressed, masking, working to cope. As demands increase in those settings, that stress can increase. The dc can hold it together and then come home and collapse, blow up, have meltdowns, etc. 

So it's a pattern to watch out for rather than letting yourself feel guilty like oh he's fine there but not here. No, it matters if he's stressed there, holding it together, and then falling apart when he gets home. That tells you the supports were not high enough. It matters if your demands are higher than theirs. If he goes to grandmas and has no behaviors but does have behaviors with you asking him to do hard things, well the demand level is higher. 

Now it can also be that you don't have as much *structure* or he has more freedom to escape, etc. hence more behaviors at home. But I wouldn't assume without looking at all those factors. Its usually a mix. But preschool, that sounds high structure low demand. 

[Pen]

Yes. My son did 2 years of K. His first and a half and second were at a Waldorf school and I think good and nurturing for him. 2 years k at Waldorf was normal.  I think it was good.

he then went into homeschool and there have been a few times he could have moved ahead back to original class but did not

the only slightly awkward situation was starting into local public for high school and his original half year K group was then a year ahead. But over all it has been okay. He is emotionally immature for his age, so a help in that regard. He’s really not ready to be launching much now in 12th, and certainly was not last year. He found good friends in current class so that is important too.