EDITS REQUESTED: How do you talk to your kids about the way society feels about differences in intelligence

[SKL]

3 minutes ago, PeterPan said:

So maybe just talk with him about it? His questions seem perfectly reasonable and there are answers. And really, he could have reasons why the vibe of the school bothers him. I don't think a gifted school is great for everyone just because the IQ matches. There could be reasons why he'd prefer a different placement. To me, that would seem really strong to be able to be with your sibling, ride on the bus together, share attending the same sporting events. I could see why that would appeal to him.

Maybe just keep talking it out? Like I said, the thing I'd be thinking about most is VIBE and what they're NOT telling you. 

I agree with the bolded.  If the boy doesn't feel like the school is a nice place with nice people, then to me, that would be a deal killer.

Most schools have some program to challenge gifted kids, so, unless my child was clearly out of place in a non-selective school, I would not choose a selective school, especially if my child wasn't thrilled to go there.

[gardenmom5]

8 minutes ago, GracieJane said:

You can avoid the entire conflict by focusing on humility and hard work. One of my children has always been precocious and picked up academic skills very fast and fluidly. That child is also quickly discouraged and gives up if things are remotely difficult. My other child is not as fast, but they are a plodding, hard worker. Guess which quality serves life in the longterm better? 

I recall a story from a tech company ceo/president/big-wig.  a guy in his frat always did the NYT crossword on sunday MORNING, in ink.  every week.  he was regarded as the smartest guy in their class.  He was happy to coast, whereas guys who weren't as smart as him, worked harder and accomplished more in their fields.

or the college math class story with the habitually late student.  He thought the math problem on the board was the homework.  so- he went home and did it, and turned it in.  Then he got called to the dean's office - filled with people.  He thought he was in big trouble.  no - he just solved an "unsolvable" math problem is all.  (1930s).  But if he'd known it was "unsolvable" - he wouldn't even have tried.  George Boole said the same thing.  If he'd gone to university, he would have just done what his professors taught him instead of developing Boolean Algebra (among other things.).

[Drama Llama]

Just now, PeterPan said:

So I have a question. Is this the dc with the anxiety? Just wondering. 

No, although this is the one who changed their mind at the last minute.  Having said that, it appears that this issue was as much of an issue as covid in that decision.

Just now, PeterPan said:

I think these are FINE questions and you should just flat answer him. If he wants his instruction in a mainstream setting, stay in the ps. That's not what this school does and they do it so they can offer special things they wouldn't be able to offer due to too few enrollees, etc. in a school that served a more diverse market.

He didn't ask me, he asked them, in his interview.  I don't really know what they answered.  

The go to public school thing is hard.  I think he'd be very well served in our local public school in non-pandemic times, but I think there's a very good chance that public schools will be "hybrid" this fall.  Meaning that kids are in 2 days a week, and teachers like me would be in school 5 days, teaching two cohorts.  I would rather not have him home alone, or alone with just his brother if they happened to get the same cohort schedule.  11 seems really young for that, plus he's a super extraverted kid.  So, a private school that's operating 5 days is tempting.  Plus, a middle school with 75 kids and no school buses, seems safer than one with 750 kids arriving on buses.  

Just now, PeterPan said:

And I think it's an interesting point for him to walk up to ask ask himself whether he wants to be in that environment with only intellectual peers. There's a whole argument there about the world being richer with diversity, blah blah. If he were in whatever other placement you're considering (presumably more mainstream), would he STILL be tracked with his peers? For instance, before the gifted school, I was still tracked in a regular high school for core academic classes, meaning I was still in a small, rather nondiverse group. I actually got MORE diversity by going to the gifted school because instead of hanging with 20 I was hanging with 200. 

There are 4 options for him for next year.  

The parish school he came from has no tracking whatsoever.  

Our local public school, he'd be tracked for math, and maybe for social studies, and he could choose a language as an elective, which isn't a choice for kids whose reading scores are below grade level.  There is no tracking for English, science, or other electives.

The magnet, is within a regular public school, and he'd be tracked for math, science, and computer science, and would have the same option to test of reading and take a world language.  There would be no tracking for English, social studies, or other electives.

The private school would be all kids who are high performing academically. 

Just now, PeterPan said:

So maybe just talk with him about it? His questions seem perfectly reasonable and there are answers. And really, he could have reasons why the vibe of the school bothers him. I don't think a gifted school is great for everyone just because the IQ matches. There could be reasons why he'd prefer a different placement. To me, that would seem really strong to be able to be with your sibling, ride on the bus together, share attending the same sporting events. I could see why that would appeal to him.

Unfortunately, there's no option to be with his brother.  All the other schools end at 8th grade.  It's just that at this one school it seems like he should be able to be with his brother, to him.  

Just now, PeterPan said:

Maybe just keep talking it out? Like I said, the thing I'd be thinking about most is VIBE and what they're NOT telling you. 

We're talking and talking.  I'm just curious how other people talk to their kids, and to see if there are other ideas for how to come at it. 

[Clemsondana]

I have some friends with grown children who, somewhere in late elementary or early middle school, pulled their kids from public school and sent them to private school.  The kids actually ended up going to different private schools - one academic, one arts focused.  Like some of my friends who ended up making the same decision, the struggle was between the elitism of the private schools and the struggle to find a peer group at the public schools.  But, it wasn't about their kid being smarter or better, it was about finding a group of kids who had the same priorities.  But, that's possibly only an issue if a kid is likely to adapt bad habits from peers, which is what was happening in the first example.  And, not all private, or academic, schools have an elitist culture and certainly not all of the kids there will have that attitude - there always seems to be a group of kids who are rolling their eyes at their peers.  

I was in a different situation.  From grades 1-8, I went to schools that were mixed but offered challenging classes and there were plenty of academic kids.  Then I moved to another state.  I did fine academically in the challenging classes, but the kids in those classes were the 'can do no wrong in the eyes of adults' kids who were actually drinking and hooking up in 9th grade.  It was quite the culture shock!  I quickly made my peer group a bunch of band kids who weren't academic but were a better fit in all other ways.  They accepted people and encouraged them, which means that one night they said that they wouldn't call to talk because I had a final and needed to study...not that they were going to study, but they knew that I needed to.  🙂  

I doubt this helps, but I just wanted to sympathize that this can be complicated and in the end you don't know what situation you'll wind up with no matter what choice you make.  

[Scarlett]

I always like to quote a country song in threads like this, "Happiness on earth isn't just for high achievers."

I have a very very bright son.  I knew he was from the time he was a toddler.  And for the most part I am pleased with how I raised him. What I focused on.  I do not like competition. I never have.  I wanted him to focus on being the best HE could be.  For himself.  BUT within reason.  I encouraged him to be well rounded, humble, content, kind.  When he talked about 'how much money' he could make in various fields, I said, 'I encourage you to consider how much money you NEED to live a life of dignity.'  Pretty sure that is the one thing I did not get through to him.  His father's voice won out on that one.  But he is still well rounded, humble, kind.  

I tried very hard to build his confidence but he was constantly doubting my assessment of him.  And when he got to college and found fellow students who were smarter than him he was almost angry at me about it.  Like 'see!  I told you I wasn't that smart!'  

Kids are hard. Young adults are brutal.

[Drama Llama]

I also want to say that right now, this came up because of the school decision.   But I know my area well enough to know it will come up again.  

To give you a sense of where I'm raising my kids, I was once discussing summer camps with another parent while we were watching our kids play sports.  They mentioned that they were looking for a certain kind of summer camp for her middle schooler, and I said that I had heard good things about a camp held on the campus of a nearby university.  The university isn't a super elite school, but I just looked it up and it's ranked between 50 and 100 for National Universities on US News, so it's a solid school.  

The other parent told me that she couldn't send her kid there, because she was worried that her kid would think that kind of school was acceptable.  

So, while I'm confident that we'll sort out the school decision, I'm also sure this will come up again.  

[PeterPan]

13 minutes ago, BaseballandHockey said:

It's just that at this one school it seems like he should be able to be with his brother, to him.  

I think just acknowledge the generosity of spirit and then make the right choice.

 

13 minutes ago, BaseballandHockey said:

We're talking and talking.  I'm just curious how other people talk to their kids, and to see if there are other ideas for how to come at it. 

I think just make sure you're addressing his real question or real concern. If his concern is being together and showing love, that's different from understanding IQs. I'm not sure sharing actual IQs would be helpful in this situation. 

 

2 minutes ago, BaseballandHockey said:

The other parent told me that she couldn't send her kid there, because she was worried that her kid would think that kind of school was acceptable. 

What??? Maybe it was a parent who wants their dc to go to a religious university, not a state school?? 

I don't know, I mean, all types exist. There are some things I just don't talk with people about, kwim? You might find that's the real solution. Maybe you're putting too much out there and walking right into these things. 

[Scarlett]

16 hours ago, BaseballandHockey said:

 

 

Edited February 16, 2021 by Scarlett

[Not_a_Number]

In my experience, actually academic folks have a chip on their shoulder about this, partially because American culture is pretty anti-intellectual on average. The smart kids aren't particularly respected or envied for their intelligence. There's an uneasy sense that knowing things may lead to success later on, but no one really wants to be the nerds. 

Edited February 16, 2021 by Not_a_Number

[PinkTulip]

We have a pretty big disparity at our house - I have one son who has severe dyslexia and other strong learning disabilities, and his brother just one grade lower who is just off the top of the charts academically. For example, there is a 16 point difference in their ACT scores, where the lower score was earned after months of intensive private tutoring and multiple tries, and the higher score earned as a sophomore on the first try with no prior practice. 
 

So we talk a lot about how everyone has strengths and weaknesses, everyone deserves love and kindness, and everyone has something they struggle with. We also talk a lot about the personal best, and how success looks different for everyone. Getting into one of the top universities in the country was a success for my one son, and getting a B+ at our local community college was a success for the other. Both are celebrated and honored equally, because both are a personal best for them. They are both happy with where they are in life and their plans for the future, because their paths are their own. 

[prairiewindmomma]

The Mommy wars are gross for sure.

We've tried hard to inoculate our kids to that craziness.  

[Not_a_Number]

1 minute ago, prairiewindmomma said:

The Mommy wars are gross for sure.

We've tried hard to inoculate our kids to that craziness.  

Yeah, it's hard. 

Honestly, I've been really happy that so far, DD8's socializing has been completely unrelated to academics. I didn't want her to be in the uneasy position of the "smart kid" in the class, because it's not really a fun place to be. Having our socializing be based around playground time and "play classes" has been much nicer. 

[gardenmom5]

2 hours ago, PinkTulip said:

We have a pretty big disparity at our house - I have one son who has severe dyslexia and other strong learning disabilities, and his brother just one grade lower who is just off the top of the charts academically. For example, there is a 16 point difference in their ACT scores, where the lower score was earned after months of intensive private tutoring and multiple tries, and the higher score earned as a sophomore on the first try with no prior practice. 
 

So we talk a lot about how everyone has strengths and weaknesses, everyone deserves love and kindness, and everyone has something they struggle with. We also talk a lot about the personal best, and how success looks different for everyone. Getting into one of the top universities in the country was a success for my one son, and getting a B+ at our local community college was a success for the other. Both are celebrated and honored equally, because both are a personal best for them. They are both happy with where they are in life and their plans for the future, because their paths are their own. 

Yes.   some people have a lot of innate ability - and don't bother doing much with it, and other's don't have very much ability, but they run with what they've been given.

and everyone will have challenges at some point in their life, some will last their whole life, some will be short - but intense.

 

The other big thing is - some people have a lot of opportunities to develop their talents, and others have few - through no fault of their own.  And they deserve to be treated with kindness and respect too.

[katilac]

 

 

3 hours ago, BaseballandHockey said:

 My youngest really doesn't understand why a school would make that choice.  He asked them in his interview "Why can't my brother come?"  "Don't you want my brother?" He's asked me if they think he's better than his brother, and if so does that mean that his middle brother was better than him?  They told him that they were sorry they didn't have program that was a match, that their program is built for academically talented kids, and his reply was to ask why they chose to build it that way.  Why didn't they build a school for everyone?    

To the first part: I don't know how the school answered it, but I don't think it's a difficult question. There are lots of schools 'for everyone', and they can be a great choice. There are also lots of specialty schools, and they can be a great choice, too. The more general schools usually have more variety in activities, and the specialty schools have a specific focus. So there are schools for academically advanced students, schools for dyslexic students, schools for students who want to focus on performing or the arts. Choose the school that suits you. 

[TravelingChris]

3 hours ago, PinkTulip said:

We have a pretty big disparity at our house - I have one son who has severe dyslexia and other strong learning disabilities, and his brother just one grade lower who is just off the top of the charts academically. For example, there is a 16 point difference in their ACT scores, where the lower score was earned after months of intensive private tutoring and multiple tries, and the higher score earned as a sophomore on the first try with no prior practice. 
 

So we talk a lot about how everyone has strengths and weaknesses, everyone deserves love and kindness, and everyone has something they struggle with. We also talk a lot about the personal best, and how success looks different for everyone. Getting into one of the top universities in the country was a success for my one son, and getting a B+ at our local community college was a success for the other. Both are celebrated and honored equally, because both are a personal best for them. They are both happy with where they are in life and their plans for the future, because their paths are their own. 

Does your dyslexic get extra time?  That made all the difference to dd2,  And she is now in a profession where time is less of an issue.

[PinkTulip]

11 minutes ago, TravelingChris said:

Does your dyslexic get extra time?  That made all the difference to dd2,  And she is now in a profession where time is less of an issue.

He does, and I agree, it makes a huge difference. School in all forms is just really hard for him, so he is looking at some kind of trade or other skill that can support him without needing a ton of school. 

[Spy Car]

7 hours ago, BaseballandHockey said:

We're looking at schools, and some of the schools that we are considering for my youngest, who is quite bright and does well in school, are academically selective.  I feel like we're trying to give one message about what that means, but my kid is getting a different message from the schools themselves, and from some family members, and my kid, who is ten, is confused.

I'd love to hear from other people about how you talk to your kids about intellectual or academic differences between siblings, or family members, or classmates, and how you counteract messages that your kid hears that you may not agree with.  Particularly, if you have kids with different abilities, or if one kid has gotten opportunities due to their abilities that a sibling or cousin or friend might not get.  

 

Last semester, a chance would have it, my son's high school school humanities program (11th grade, conducted virtually) spent a considerable time analyzing different types of "intelligences" which included delving pretty deeply into critics of an over emphasizing  the types of intelligences that allow some to excel at tests or other types of academic learning while undervaluing other types of intelligences. It was interesting from what I gleaning overhearing things. And I will admit some irony in this being a demanding program pitched at students who can handle an advanced academic load.

I don't have words of wisdom for how to deal with children who have academic disparities , other to show value for each person's gifts. Sorry I'm not of more use.

Bill

[GoodGrief3]

23 hours ago, BaseballandHockey said:

 

Ah, is that the cousin that was creating the math angst recently? SIL sounds like someone you might need to tune out a bit. 🙂

Younger brother does seem to be a curious sort and his love for his brother is super sweet. In that case, I am not sure he really needs a reason why that school would not work out for older brother. It can just come down to a vague, "Brother needs a different kind of school", possibly naming a reason the other school is better for him (sports? better high school prep?)

All that to say, I'd tend to simplify the answer and likely not be concerned about providing a thorough answer that might be too much.

Edited February 16, 2021 by GoodGrief3

[BusyMom5]

I think you are over-thinking this.  As a homeschooling parent,  I feel like its my job to pick a program tailored to my kids needs.  If you are lucky enough to be able to pick a school, you should pick one that fits your sons giftedness.  Gifted kids are not better, they are different.   In my house, we had a similar issue and I have made it a point to explain that different brains work different ways- it seems to work for my kids and if one is struggling and another tries to say how easy it is- the other will pipe up that 'That isn't how mt brain sees it.'  I had a super academic kid, and one with an undiagnosed LD, so I needed way way for the one not to feel superior,  and the other inferior.  The not as academic kid in my family has other strengths,  which we point out- things the other struggles with.  Think social things, reading people,  etc.  The difference is there, the kids see it, so it should be addressed.   I think your gifted son should know that he is gifted in ways, be proud of his abilities and work to learn as much as he can.  When explaining the school, I would say its designed for kids whose brains process information more like he does- which makes it easier for kids and teachers.  Discussions and texts covered will have more depth.  Your other son isn't going because classes that teach more to his style are at another school.  Neither is better, its about picking a school that meets their academic needs and helps them to succeed academically at their own speed and depth.  

[Not_a_Number]

44 minutes ago, BusyMom5 said:

The difference is there, the kids see it, so it should be addressed. 

That's always the side I come down on. The kids notice the differences themselves, so there's no point acting like they're not there. I try very hard to name the things they see, so that they feel like we all live in the same world. 

I would probably also be blunt about the fact that some people will try to make him feel like he's superior to other people because he's smart, and that this is a silly way to think. (Although I will say that if I sent DD8 to school, I would also appreciate the peers in the gifted magnet. Not because they are "better," but because they would be more likely to share her interests. Plus I think some limited amount of positive peer pressure can be a good thing.) 

[Garga]

The OP lives in an area very different from mine. The circles I run in are suspicious of people being too smart. I’ve had to convince my kids that it’s a good thing to be smart. 

A significant number of the kids here don’t have any interest in and don’t go on to college.  

I just want to make sure my kids aren’t embarrassed for being smart. 

 

(Edit: not everyone I know is this way, because I’ve been careful to become friends with people who think education is important. But I have had to find them, because there are a lot of people in my circles who are very suspicious of education and being too smart.  So...from my perspective, it’s best to try to surround smart kids with other smart kids so that they can flourish.)

 

(Edit: however! With that said, I don’t like it when academic kids are pressured into anxiety and depression. So if you’re in a strong academic area you have to decide if the school will allow them to flourish? or squish them down under the pressure?)

Edited February 16, 2021 by Garga

[klmama]

58 minutes ago, Garga said:

With that said, I don’t like it when academic kids are pressured into anxiety and depression. So if you’re in a strong academic area you have to decide if the school will allow them to flourish? or squish them down under the pressure?)

This.  There is an IB day school near us that is known for being a pressure cooker starting around 6th grade, even for those who don't plan to pursue the IB.  Most families I've known have left during middle school, but I know one family whose dc stuck it out through 10th grade; he was a wreck from the pressure.  They finally pulled all their dc and enrolled them in the local public schools, where they enjoyed taking AP and honors courses; that turned out to be a great fit.  Other families have switched to other private schools in the area or even to boarding schools with great success.  Just because a school offers "the best" program for gifted kids doesn't mean it's the right fit.  

[SKL]

21 hours ago, PeterPan said:

Well then why are they comparing themselves? [re adoptive / not biological siblings]

Funny thing - my kids are studying genetics.  They studied it in 7th grade, now in 9th grade honors biology, and it also came up in English in relation to nonfiction study.  We've also looked at DNA traits and relationships via 23andme, including the fact that my two daughters share zero DNA as far as testing can tell.  So this is not a completely new topic for them.

Recently, they had a project to create "their pedigree" related to a trait of their choice.  We were discussing some trait or heritage, and my kids were like, how could that be true for me if it's not true for my sister?  Despite all the concrete knowledge, somehow it didn't occur to them that their biological heritages are completely separate.

It doesn't surprise me that younger kids would lack understanding of inherited differences.  Also, as I was explaining to my 14yo recently, inherited differences aren't the only ones that can affect IQ.  Malnutrition, neglect, trauma, and un-stimulating environments, factors not unusual in cases of adoption, can permanently harm intelligence.  IQ is a pretty complex matter for young kids.

[Arcadia]

21 hours ago, BaseballandHockey said:

Maybe it's the area I live in, where there is an enormous amount of academic pressure on kids, and there is this idea that academically talented kids are superior.  Not just better at academics, but better humans.  

That’s my entire country of origin. The issue was that very few people can make it to the National Olympic team level for sports where the prize money is high enough to live “comfortably” on. For the rest of the people, the focus was on academics to get a good middle income job unless the child is very good at sales (sales commission can be extremely lucrative; insurance, real estate and others).

[Arcadia]

21 hours ago, BaseballandHockey said:

To give you a sense of where I'm raising my kids, I was once discussing summer camps with another parent while we were watching our kids play sports.  They mentioned that they were looking for a certain kind of summer camp for her middle schooler, and I said that I had heard good things about a camp held on the campus of a nearby university.  The university isn't a super elite school, but I just looked it up and it's ranked between 50 and 100 for National Universities on US News, so it's a solid school.  

The other parent told me that she couldn't send her kid there, because she was worried that her kid would think that kind of school was acceptable.  

 

20 hours ago, PeterPan said:

What??? Maybe it was a parent who wants their dc to go to a religious university, not a state school?? 

My husband’s ex-colleague told us bluntly that she wants her high school kid to go to Stanford. California State Universities are not good enough for her child while state schools like UCB, UCLA are tolerable. 

[Drama Llama]

Thanks everyone, you've given me a lot to think about. 
 

I did want to qualify that I'm not hiding my kids' abilities from each other.  We've always been pretty open about what work we're doing, and supporting kids where we are.  My older two kids, who were the furthest apart as far as natural ability, often worked side by side on the same thing at different levels.  

What we hadn't introduced, and what has now been introduced to my youngest, is the idea that being really good at math, for example, is somehow different or superior to being really good at soccer, or really good at baking cookies.  My youngest could tell you, for example, that math comes more easily to him than to his oldest brother, and that it came even more easily to his middle brother.  He could also tell you that my oldest is better at hitting a baseball, or that his middle brother couldn't hold a pencil.  It's just this idea of connecting academic skill with value, that seems new to him, and hard for him to sort out. 

[Not_a_Number]

6 minutes ago, BaseballandHockey said:

What we hadn't introduced, and what has now been introduced to my youngest, is the idea that being really good at math, for example, is somehow different or superior to being really good at soccer, or really good at baking cookies.  My youngest could tell you, for example, that math comes more easily to him than to his oldest brother, and that it came even more easily to his middle brother.  He could also tell you that my oldest is better at hitting a baseball, or that his middle brother couldn't hold a pencil.  It's just this idea of connecting academic skill with value, that seems new to him, and hard for him to sort out. 

But the "value" of it is is very dubious, right? It's this very mixed thing in America... part of what you're seeing is pushback against the anti-intellectualism of the culture. There's no cachet and no social status conferred on the smart kids in most places in America. And then some places go overboard in pushing back against that. Plus, of course, there's always the uneasy realization that some talents make you more likely to make lots of money in our current economy.

I'm really sorry that you're dealing with the mixed messages. It's not like you don't have enough stuff on your plate.

ETA: I have to say, I have a chip on my shoulder about this myself. I attended a gifted program, and even in that context, there was very limited patience for genuine intellectual curiosity, as opposed to just the desire to get good grades... 

Edited February 17, 2021 by Not_a_Number

[BlsdMama]

Without reading the replies, expectations are difficult.  You'll find this especially true if your older children are academically strong and then you have one down the line that is otherwise gifted.  My first several are very strong academically.  The teachers at our homeschool program are very gracious, but we've heard before a general categorization of our children that makes assumptions of the whole crew that aren't true of all.  Likewise, if you have older socially adept children, then later a very reserved kiddo who is less socially savvy, folks are surprised.

But, funniest of all? I do this myself! We prize nurture over nature in this society.  We believe "good" parents produce a well-rounded child, strong socially and academically and fail to appreciate and respect differences of a person as an individual, in their created being.

[SKL]

Well, aren't there any activities that are exclusive to your oldest child, who, for example, is better at hitting a baseball?  My eldest was invited to join a gymnastics performance team which my youngest (the academically advanced one) couldn't dream of qualifying for.  I don't think either of my girls got the message that qualifying for that team made eldest a better person, so why would they believe youngest was a better person just based on academic qualifications?

I guess some people may value IQ over other talents, and vice versa, but as long as you are consistent about people having equal value despite having different talents, I think your son will be fine.

[Drama Llama]

On 2/15/2021 at 4:43 PM, prairiewindmomma said:

 

When our kids were really little, our daughter who had brain cancer was quite gifted (like, measured by a neuropsychologist documented gifted--it was a baseline before a chemo trial).  As she became wheelchair bound and her face changed, people made all kinds of assumptions about her that were just wrong. We talked about that---she was the same girl that liked pink and drawing and was a good friend to play with but people thought things about her based on what she looked like (sidebar--racism convo).  So, we talked about what people should value, versus what people do value (sidebar--crazy amounts of money we pay to athletes and movie stars).  We also talked about how what people say about others often reflects their own hearts and minds rather than the person they are talking about.

I missed this when I read yesterday, but this was also a big issue for us.   People often made assumptions about my child's intelligence when they met him, as if the things he couldn't do with his body were indicative of the capability of his mind.  When he'd demonstrate his intelligence in some way, and their assumptions changed, their treatment of him would change too.  It was very clear that there were many people, including people who had power over him in medical settings, who felt that his life was more valuable because he was "smart".  

I'm a special ed teacher, with a specialization in kids with significant cognitive disabilities.  My student's lives don't have less value than my son's because he had more academic and intellectual skills.  

[Not_a_Number]

1 minute ago, BaseballandHockey said:

I'm a special ed teacher, with a specialization in kids with significant cognitive disabilities.  My student's lives don't have less value than my son's because he had more academic and intellectual skills.  

I think the easy trap to fall into here would be to downplay his abilities due to concerns about overenthusiastic societal treatment. If he's allowed to feel good about his athletic ability, he should be allowed to feel good about being bright. Obviously, you want to emphasize a growth mindset, but it's too heavy a burden on a little kid to have to think about whether he's being treated too well because of unreasonable societal values. 

[Drama Llama]

1 minute ago, SKL said:

Well, aren't there any activities that are exclusive to your oldest child, who, for example, is better at hitting a baseball?  My eldest was invited to join a gymnastics performance team which my youngest (the academically advanced one) couldn't dream of qualifying for.  I don't think either of my girls got the message that qualifying for that team made eldest a better person, so why would they believe youngest was a better person just based on academic qualifications?

I guess some people may value IQ over other talents, and vice versa, but as long as you are consistent about people having equal value despite having different talents, I think your son will be fine.

My kids get that one son is more likely to get picked for a baseball team, than the other, and the other is more likely to get picked for a hockey team.  They get it when one wins a solo at church and the other has a robot to show off at camp.  They get that one kid might be invited to take Algebra in 6th, and the other in 9th. 

This situation, where one kid might have an opportunity to go to a school with small classes, sports teams, and fancy facilities, and the other doesn't, is harder for him to make sense of.   In fact, given that this is one of the few schools that's open during covid, we could end up in a situation where my older kid doesn't get to go to school at all next year, and needs to study at home alone while both parents are at work.  Or where we need to make a choice between having him home, and a school situation that feels unsafe.   That feels different, and while i understand why it happens, it's hard to explain to a ten year old.  

[Drama Llama]

2 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

I think the easy trap to fall into here would be to downplay his abilities due to concerns about overenthusiastic societal treatment. If he's allowed to feel good about his athletic ability, he should be allowed to feel good about being bright. Obviously, you want to emphasize a growth mindset, but it's too heavy a burden on a little kid to have to think about whether he's being treated too well because of unreasonable societal values. 

He does feel good about being bright.  What have I said that makes you think I'm giving my kid a different message than that?

[fairfarmhand]

4 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

I think the easy trap to fall into here would be to downplay his abilities due to concerns about overenthusiastic societal treatment. If he's allowed to feel good about his athletic ability, he should be allowed to feel good about being bright. Obviously, you want to emphasize a growth mindset, but it's too heavy a burden on a little kid to have to think about whether he's being treated too well because of unreasonable societal values. 

And don't even get me started on how "more attractive" girls are treated, vs. "less attractive" ones. (I use the quotes because I think every human has beauty and beauty is a societal thing. I used girls because I have 3 of them) My blonde little girl got much more attention as a little girl for her "prettiness" than my redhead or brunette. It used to steam me because people would gush over my blue eyed blonde for her looks and ignore her two older sisters who were STANDING RIGHT THERE!

OP, treat it like some areas have Magnet schools focused on the arts, the sciences, the humanities. athletics, etc. There are different opportunities for different capabilities. Your area has a focus on academics. Other areas (some places are more artsy) may give those special opportunities for other focuses. I live in the South. Sports are a THING here. 

Edited February 17, 2021 by fairfarmhand

[Not_a_Number]

3 minutes ago, BaseballandHockey said:

He does feel good about being bright.  What have I said that makes you think I'm giving my kid a different message than that?

I think you have an uneasy relationship with academic ability, due to societal expectations. Just an impression I've gotten over the years. It'd be easy to let that spill over. 

If I'm way off-base, feel free to ignore me 🙂 . That's what I'd worry about, personally. I'd have the same concern about myself and skills I have an uneasy relationship with... like, frankly, athletic ability. I'm sure I don't communicate the same unequivocal sense of approval about things that I think society overvalues. 

Edited February 17, 2021 by Not_a_Number

[Not_a_Number]

5 minutes ago, BaseballandHockey said:

This situation, where one kid might have an opportunity to go to a school with small classes, sports teams, and fancy facilities, and the other doesn't, is harder for him to make sense of.  

Is the magnet school much fancier than the other options? That's interesting... my school had classes for gifted kids, but wasn't otherwise fancy. My sister got to go to a private school, and that was MUCH fancier.  

I can see that it doesn't seem fair if he thinks of his school as better as opposed to just differently focused. 

[SKL]

4 minutes ago, BaseballandHockey said:

This situation, where one kid might have an opportunity to go to a school with small classes, sports teams, and fancy facilities, and the other doesn't, is harder for him to make sense of.   In fact, given that this is one of the few schools that's open during covid, we could end up in a situation where my older kid doesn't get to go to school at all next year, and needs to study at home alone while both parents are at work.  Or where we need to make a choice between having him home, and a school situation that feels unsafe.   That feels different, and while i understand why it happens, it's hard to explain to a ten year old.  

There is a lot of that happening right now because of Covid.  One of my kids' friends spent the first semester doing "virtual school" while her sister, about a year younger, was in a full-time K-8 school.  It stinks, but I don't think it's hard to explain that 9th graders and 6th graders go to different schools, some of which are in person and some of which are not.

(There are, of course, options for my kids and their friends to go to in-person school, if the parents/guardians want to invest the time and money, but we have our reasons not to do so.  We've had lots of discussions about why we chose the school(s) we chose.  There is no perfect on earth.)

[Drama Llama]

Just now, Not_a_Number said:

Is the magnet school much fancier than the other options? That's interesting... my school had classes for gifted kids, but wasn't otherwise fancy. My sister got to go to a private school, and that was MUCH fancier.  

I can see that it doesn't seem fair if he thinks of his school as better as opposed to just differently focused. 

The magnet school isn't the one that's introducing this idea.  It's the private school for academically talented kids.  He'd have classes of 11, while his brother in public would have classes capped at 33.  He'd have playing fields, and daily sports practices (something you only get in high school. in public here here, and something our public school kids aren't getting at all during covid), and lots of other bells and whistles.  Most significantly,   during covid he'd have school 5 days a week, while his brother is likely to be doing school at home on Zoom.

It's a way different situation than being on an A vs a B sports team.  

[Not_a_Number]

2 minutes ago, BaseballandHockey said:

The magnet school isn't the one that's introducing this idea.  It's the private school for academically talented kids.  He'd have classes of 11, while his brother in public would have classes capped at 33.  He'd have playing fields, and daily sports practices (something you only get in high school. in public here here, and something our public school kids aren't getting at all during covid), and lots of other bells and whistles.  Most significantly,   during covid he'd have school 5 days a week, while his brother is likely to be doing school at home on Zoom.

It's a way different situation than being on an A vs a B sports team.  

Ah, OK. 

I would probably not send one kid to a private school and one to a public school, for reasons of perceived unfairness, unless that was what both kids really wanted. So I'm very much with you on that concern. 

Edited February 17, 2021 by Not_a_Number

[Terabith]

10 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

I think you have an uneasy relationship with academic ability, due to societal expectations. Just an impression I've gotten over the years. It'd be easy to let that spill over. 

If I'm way off-base, feel free to ignore me 🙂 . That's what I'd worry about, personally. I'd have the same concern about myself and skills I have an uneasy relationship with... like, frankly, athletic ability. I'm sure I don't communicate the same unequivocal sense of approval about things that I think society overvalues. 

I haven't heard BaseballandHockey expressing any kind of discomfort with academic ability.  What I'm hearing discomfort about is a belief that kids with higher achievement are inherently more valuable and are therefore deserving of things that are people are not.....like schools with smaller classes, nicer facilities, and even being open in person.  

You can be completely comfortable and believe that each of your children, with their differing skill sets, are equally valuable but be deeply uncomfortable with the notion that some forms of ability make those kids more deserving of opportunities than other kids.  

[Not_a_Number]

Just now, Terabith said:

You can be completely comfortable and believe that each of your children, with their differing skill sets, are equally valuable but be deeply uncomfortable with the notion that some forms of ability make those kids more deserving of opportunities than other kids.  

Yes, I'm sure you can. Personally, as a fallible person, I know that I would have a hard time not letting that discomfort occasionally bleed over into my relationship with my kid. But I know many people are wiser than me. 

[goldenecho]

In our family we have two kids for whom school came easily and who were both in gifted programs at some point, and one child who has learning disabilities that made school continually hard...so hard that after a year of him crying through kindergarten and making no progress, we brought him home to homeschool.  After four years homeschooling he attended school a year behind and in a special ed class (which was wonderful for him, frankly...he finally could compare himself to kids going through the same sort of struggles he was in stead of his older brothers.).    Now he's homeschooling again through a school program where they send work home (and I have some ability to tweak). 

Trying to answer this question has been really hard for us.   With my older kids I have talked until I was blue in the face about how what comes easily to some people are more difficult for others, and how everyone has different things that they are good at.   It took a long time for them to get it, and stop being part of the problem by comparing how they did to how he did.   We also try to focus on how different people need to learn things in different ways, and some ways work better for some people than others, so just because someone had trouble learning something one way doesn't mean they can't learn it.   I try to talk about the differences between the way my two oldest learn too.

With all my kids, but especially my youngest, we have focused on effort, not "smartness."   Since he knows that sometimes things take him longer to learn, and that it's not as easy for him to learn things, I've talked a lot about how sometimes when something is harder you learn it better.   Someone who picks up on something quickly may not really understand it as well as someone who has to work harder to learn it. 

And we also talk about how different people are better at different things, and while some of that has to do with ability, most of the time it has to do with what they spend time practising. 

[prairiewindmomma]

36 minutes ago, BaseballandHockey said:

I missed this when I read yesterday, but this was also a big issue for us.   People often made assumptions about my child's intelligence when they met him, as if the things he couldn't do with his body were indicative of the capability of his mind.  When he'd demonstrate his intelligence in some way, and their assumptions changed, their treatment of him would change too.  It was very clear that there were many people, including people who had power over him in medical settings, who felt that his life was more valuable because he was "smart".  

I'm a special ed teacher, with a specialization in kids with significant cognitive disabilities.  My student's lives don't have less value than my son's because he had more academic and intellectual skills.  

Yup.  We caught the flip side of this when she became deaf and blind.  We had to show her art drawings and explain how her life still had joy and meaning even as a deaf/blind/mute wheelchair bound person. 

[SKL]

16 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

I would probably not send one kid to a private school and one to a public school, for reasons of perceived unfairness, unless that was what both kids really wanted. So I'm very much with you on that concern. 

I tend to agree with this.  Most likely there are expensive, small, well-equipped schools that would take children of average or below-average ability.  From the kids' perspective, there must be a reason why the expense is considered worth it for one child and not the other child.  I think it looks different than just sending them to different public schools based on their different ages and abilities.

That's not to say it can't be justified, if none of the public options can reasonably meet the child's needs.  But that doesn't sound like the reason why the family is considering this school.

[prairiewindmomma]

But an additional part of the dynamic is that their youngest can't function independently with Zoom school, and really needs a FT option because mom is working FT and dad is unavailable to help with schooling.  Their older son could make their current situation work.  

OP, do what you need to do.  We aren't you, and you are fully capable of making good decisions in this area based on the needs before you. 🙂

[Not_a_Number]

1 minute ago, prairiewindmomma said:

But an additional part of the dynamic is that their youngest can't function independently with Zoom school, and really needs a FT option because mom is working FT and dad is unavailable to help with schooling.  Their older son could make their current situation work.  

Yeah, that's a good point! I wasn't thinking of that. This is a hard situation. 

 

1 minute ago, prairiewindmomma said:

OP, do what you need to do.  We aren't you, and you are fully capable of making good decisions in this area based on the needs before you. 🙂

I don't have any doubts about that, personally 🙂 . 

[Drama Llama]

38 minutes ago, prairiewindmomma said:

Yup.  We caught the flip side of this when she became deaf and blind.  We had to show her art drawings and explain how her life still had joy and meaning even as a deaf/blind/mute wheelchair bound person. 

I was given the advice to hang photos in my kid's ICU room, and to always dress him in clothes from home.  My sister in law would take geeky math and science t-shirts and modify them with snaps so they worked like hospital gowns.  All so that every person who came in his room, would know that he had a life to get back to, one that had meaning.  

I hated that I had to prove that, and trade on the privilege that comes with intelligence, but you better believe that I did. 

[Drama Llama]

43 minutes ago, SKL said:

I tend to agree with this.  Most likely there are expensive, small, well-equipped schools that would take children of average or below-average ability.  From the kids' perspective, there must be a reason why the expense is considered worth it for one child and not the other child.  I think it looks different than just sending them to different public schools based on their different ages and abilities.

There really isn't, or there might be if I could handle a 45 minute commute in the opposite direction from work (e.g. drive 45 minutes, drop kid, drive 45 minutes back to my house and then keep going another 30 minutes to work.  But those options are $45K.

43 minutes ago, SKL said:

That's not to say it can't be justified, if none of the public options can reasonably meet the child's needs.  But that doesn't sound like the reason why the family is considering this school.

I can't do virtual school for this kid if I'm working.  He just doesn't have the maturity.  I think that there are plenty of young 11 year olds who wouldn't do OK at home alone on Zoom school.  So, it's quite likely that there won't be a public option that meets his needs.  

It's a safety plan.  It's not a school I'd consider if I knew that public schools would be open and safe, or that I'd have an adult home during the day to support homeschooling next year.  

Which is why I'm not really asking whether he should go there. If it's the way to keep him safe, and our family safe, and he gets in and gets sufficient aid, he'll go.  It looks like we might have another option for him though.  

 

[Not_a_Number]

1 minute ago, BaseballandHockey said:

It looks like we might have another option for him though.  

That would be good! What's the other option? 

[fairfarmhand]

1 minute ago, BaseballandHockey said:

There really isn't, or there might be if I could handle a 45 minute commute in the opposite direction from work (e.g. drive 45 minutes, drop kid, drive 45 minutes back to my house and then keep going another 30 minutes to work.  But those options are $45K.

I can't do virtual school for this kid if I'm working.  He just doesn't have the maturity.  I think that there are plenty of young 11 year olds who wouldn't do OK at home alone on Zoom school.  So, it's quite likely that there won't be a public option that meets his needs.  

It's a safety plan.  It's not a school I'd consider if I knew that public schools would be open and safe, or that I'd have an adult home during the day to support homeschooling next year.  

Which is why I'm not really asking whether he should go there. If it's the way to keep him safe, and our family safe, and he gets in and gets sufficient aid, he'll go.  It looks like we might have another option for him though.  

 

My 13 year old would fail miserably at home by himself doing zoom school, so you're not alone in this. Even my 15 yo needs serious scaffolding and sometimes explicit direction in her online school stuff.