Honors Biology -- PA Homeschoolers vs Blue Tent

[SeaConquest]

I am trying to decide between these two courses. Has anyone gone through the same or similar analysis? Looking for a secular biology course that will prepare a STEM-focused student for either AP bio or gen bio at the university. Thanks for any thoughts. 

[MamaSprout]

We did our own thing with Campbell's Exploring Life, Hoagland's Exploring the Way Life Works and book of biology essays put out by the same people who did Human Odyssey (K12). Dd did a CLEP course later.

Blue Tent is a fairly high output course.

Maybe this? They review well in some other groups I'm in: https://www.worldlypupil.com/

 

[Roadrunner]

1 hour ago, MamaSprout said:

 

Blue Tent is a fairly high output course.

Maybe this? They review well in some other groups I'm in: https://www.worldlypupil.com/

 

I don’t want to derail this thread but can you point me to any reviews of Worldly Pupil’s AP Bio?

[MamaSprout]

5 minutes ago, Roadrunner said:

I don’t want to derail this thread but can you point me to any reviews of Worldly Pupil’s AP Bio?

I haven't seen a review for that particular course. The group I was thinking of really likes Stanford OHS for AP Bio (too expensive for us!)

[Roadrunner]

17 minutes ago, MamaSprout said:

I haven't seen a review for that particular course. The group I was thinking of really likes Stanford OHS for AP Bio (too expensive for us!)

Oh yes. I just did the budget for my son’s junior year - $1,800. I can’t imagine $5k for one course at OHS, not that we would be accepted there anyway. 

[SeaConquest]

3 hours ago, MamaSprout said:

We did our own thing with Campbell's Exploring Life, Hoagland's Exploring the Way Life Works and book of biology essays put out by the same people who did Human Odyssey (K12). Dd did a CLEP course later.

Blue Tent is a fairly high output course.

Maybe this? They review well in some other groups I'm in: https://www.worldlypupil.com/

 

I've never heard of Worldly Pupil. It looks like it is popular up north. I would love to see any reviews. What have you heard about Blue Tent Honors Bio being high output?

We are waiting to hear back from SOHS, but I am definitely not holding my breath. We would need a scholarship to make it happen anyway.

[Miss Tick]

We did the Honors Biology through Fundafunda, taught by a fellow boardie. My dc enjoyed it, and the price was very reasonable.

[SeaConquest]

12 minutes ago, SusanC said:

We did the Honors Biology through Fundafunda, taught by a fellow boardie. My dc enjoyed it, and the price was very reasonable.

I don't see Honors Bio. I only see regular Bio with Miller Levine, which we already did a few years ago, along with a whole series of Outschool lessons from Ben Corey. 

I am kinda torn on what to do with him for science next year. He is doing Thinkwell Honors Chem this year, did Algebra-based physics with AoPS the year before, and did aforementioned Bio the year before. I don't think he is ready for either AP Chem or AP Bio and his math is not yet at the level of AP Physics. He's already studied Earth Science and Astrobiology for two years and isn't interested in a year of Marine Bio. If he gets into SOHS (doubtful), there might be the possibility that we could talk them into letting him take Astrophysics, but that seems like a longshot, so I need to plan for something more realistic. We were planning to have him start college science courses vs APs, but I am nervous about his workload next year.

So, I was thinking that doing a year of Honors Bio, even if he has seen a lot of the material, would set him up to do well in AP Bio or Gen Bio and give him a break from chem. Then he can do AP or Gen Chem at the college the following year while taking calc, then AP Physics or college physics while taking multivariable calc, and AP or Gen Bio at the college down the road. I am open to other suggestions. 🙂       

[Miss Tick]

You are so far beyond where we are at. I can't imagine an honors class using a text he has already been through would keep his attention. I wonder if Connie's Organic Chem class would be of interest, although I see where you were thinking about giving chem a break, but then maybe bio with calculus?

[MamaSprout]

2 hours ago, SeaConquest said:

I don't see Honors Bio. I only see regular Bio with Miller Levine, which we already did a few years ago, along with a whole series of Outschool lessons from Ben Corey. 

I am kinda torn on what to do with him for science next year. He is doing Thinkwell Honors Chem this year, did Algebra-based physics with AoPS the year before, and did aforementioned Bio the year before. I don't think he is ready for either AP Chem or AP Bio and his math is not yet at the level of AP Physics. He's already studied Earth Science and Astrobiology for two years and isn't interested in a year of Marine Bio. If he gets into SOHS (doubtful), there might be the possibility that we could talk them into letting him take Astrophysics, but that seems like a longshot, so I need to plan for something more realistic. We were planning to have him start college science courses vs APs, but I am nervous about his workload next year.

So, I was thinking that doing a year of Honors Bio, even if he has seen a lot of the material, would set him up to do well in AP Bio or Gen Bio and give him a break from chem. Then he can do AP or Gen Chem at the college the following year while taking calc, then AP Physics or college physics while taking multivariable calc, and AP or Gen Bio at the college down the road. I am open to other suggestions. 🙂       

Have you looked at MITOCW or EdX? Or maybe take a year off of formal science and pick up something else? We ran out of science for awhile, and just did extra language study (although science happens here regardless). It turned into an aerospace, climate science, and engineering year. Kind of. But with Biology Clep. Neither of us had it in us to do another formal year of Bio.

[stripe]

Anatomy? Astronomy? Maybe take a look at some online class lists for high schools and colleges and see if any strike his fancy.

[fourisenough]

My DD is in BT Honors bio this year. Honestly, with your student’s background, I don’t think it would be much of a stretch at all. My DD is finding it easy and relatively low-output (but she’s learning new material and enjoying it). It might be a good class for an otherwise demanding year though. 

I really haven’t been able to get any/many reviews of Dr. Kanner’s courses/teaching through PAH. We’re going to go with BT for AP Bio next year. Her honors class might be good...but I haven’t seen a single review outside of those posted on PAH’s site (and that makes me a little nervous about how biased or not they might be).

[Farrar]

I would lean towards the BT if you want to guarantee secular. I know of multiple younger than high school gifted kids who have used it successfully as well. PAH follows the CB syllabus for that pre-AP bio, I'm sure, but they're definitely not truly secular as a provider, or at least, they don't strongly encourage teachers to keep religion out. Some teachers do! But without a specific review from a secular parent, I wouldn't trust that this course would. If there's interaction with the other students, then it's likely there will be a large portion of young earthers in the class in general.

I don't know anyone who has taken Worldly Pupil AP Bio, but they also came on my radar a year or so ago. Good reviews, but the student I know who used them was deeply disappointed by the lack of teacher support. It was an isolating class experience and the teacher didn't respond with much when reached out to for help. So I think if you're hoping for a really interactive class, they won't be that at all.

[Roadrunner]

So maybe this should be a new thread, but which PAH courses aren’t secular?

[Farrar]

I know one of the econ ones is not. The teacher says he uses a portion of the class to discuss his own views.

In general, when I've talked to secular families about PAH classes, they say that the content is mostly secular - it's the CB syllabus, after all for all those AP courses. But the vibe is strongly religious in any class interactions that might cover a whole host of topics - science, literature, politics, etc. where religious views might pertain - and the teachers don't discourage that. So that's a funny line there. 

[SeaConquest]

19 minutes ago, Roadrunner said:

So maybe this should be a new thread, but which PAH courses aren’t secular?

I suppose this doesn't count re whether it's a secular class or not, but I took a look at their AP econ classes and they seemed to have a very specific viewpoint that did not seem very balanced. 

[Roadrunner]

Just now, Farrar said:

I know one of the econ ones is not. The teacher says he uses a portion of the class to discuss his own views.

In general, when I've talked to secular families about PAH classes, they say that the content is mostly secular - it's the CB syllabus, after all for all those AP courses. But the vibe is strongly religious in any class interactions that might cover a whole host of topics - science, literature, politics, etc. where religious views might pertain - and the teachers don't discourage that. So that's a funny line there. 

Do you know which Econ? 
 

I know that the majority of homeschooled students tend to be religious in pretty much all classes we have attended. So while CLRC courses are secular in a way they are designed, it is an Orthodox Christian school, so it’s expected that students are very religious. It makes a difference to me if it’s just students or a course design. 

[Roadrunner]

2 minutes ago, SeaConquest said:

I suppose this doesn't count re whether it's a secular class or not, but I took a look at their AP econ classes and they seemed to have a very specific viewpoint that did not seem very balanced. 

Well, having studied Econ in grad school, I would disagree with that point of view,  but that’s a very different thing than secular/religious. We do only go for secular courses. 

[SeaConquest]

Just now, Roadrunner said:

Well, having studied Econ in grad school, I would disagree with that point of view,  but that’s a very different thing than secular/religious. We do only go for secular courses. 

I attended Claremont McKenna College, which had a very Chicago School/neoclassical PoV, but exposure to other schools of economic thought is very important to me.

[Roadrunner]

1 minute ago, SeaConquest said:

I attended Claremont McKenna College, which had a very Chicago School/neoclassical PoV, but exposure to other schools of economic thought is very important to me.

They only teach macro and micro. It’s basics. 
That’s outside scope of secular/religious though.

Edited February 16, 2021 by Roadrunner

[SeaConquest]

1 minute ago, Roadrunner said:

They only teach macro and micro. It’s basics. 

Right, but there is a massive amount of extracurricular commentary in how you teach those courses. 

[Farrar]

I feel like there's a bias in just saying, oh well, all the classes we've had were religious groups with a secular affiliation. There are actual secular providers, Blue Tent is one of them. It's important to some folks to not have a class where the teacher's religious views inform how they teach and how they structure discussion. It's fine the other way too! And sometimes that's a good thing for secular students to see. But sometimes, you just don't want to wade through it and you want to take a class at Blue Tent or G3 or something. G3's econ class was also a bit leaning toward a particular school of thought, but on anywhere near on the same level as things I heard about PAH and without the added dose of the teacher's religious education being the grounding or a class full of religious kids espousing the exact same viewpoint.

[SeaConquest]

We ended up finding some high school STEM Olympiad winners, who are mentoring younger kids in STEM subjects to raise money for food banks. They are running classes, geared toward STEM Olympiad prep and other related subjects of interest, on a donation basis. Sacha is going to try a few of them out this semester to see if he likes them and might continue with them next year to shore up his competency in all the foundational courses (bio, chem, physics) and explore other areas of interest. 

Also, Jackie found me a biotech class at Open Tent Academy that looks up his alley if these other courses don't work out.

So, we are back to square one with science. Again. Every time I think I have next year figured out, something new comes up! I am leaving for 6 weeks to fly to Texas for clinicals at the beginning of April, so I really need to get this worked out before then! 

[Roadrunner]

5 minutes ago, SeaConquest said:

Right, but there is a massive amount of extracurricular commentary in how you teach those courses. 

Well, I really want to know the details. I have one kid who will likely major in Econ, and we are looking at PAH. I went in and sampled some lectures from Hillsdale and found them generally superb. However, I’d didn’t listen to all of them. I would like to know what commentary is happening in that class before I sign up. I expect basic Macro and Micro to be very free market oriented. 

[SeaConquest]

5 minutes ago, Roadrunner said:

Well, I really want to know the details. I have one kid who will likely major in Econ, and we are looking at PAH. I went in and sampled some lectures from Hillsdale and found them generally superb. However, I’d didn’t listen to all of them. I would like to know what commentary is happening in that class before I sign up. I expect basic Macro and Micro to be very free market oriented. 

I think you will be happy with the class, then. In my 101 Micro and Macro, we definitely covered different schools of economic thought, but had a strong PoV. I would expect that any basic micro and macro series would cover the difference between neo-Classical, traditional Keynesian, and neo-Keynesian thought, and how those schools of thought play out in how they view decision-making on an individual level and policy-making on the government level. Perhaps, the PAH class does that adequately. The course description just struck me as having a specific PoV -- that's all.

[Roadrunner]

4 hours ago, Farrar said:

I feel like there's a bias in just saying, oh well, all the classes we've had were religious groups with a secular affiliation. There are actual secular providers, Blue Tent is one of them. It's important to some folks to not have a class where the teacher's religious views inform how they teach and how they structure discussion. It's fine the other way too! And sometimes that's a good thing for secular students to see. But sometimes, you just don't want to wade through it and you want to take a class at Blue Tent or G3 or something. G3's econ class was also a bit leaning toward a particular school of thought, but on anywhere near on the same level as things I heard about PAH and without the added dose of the teacher's religious education being the grounding or a class full of religious kids espousing the exact same viewpoint.

That’s true, but often people look for particular content and it might not be available through all the providers. For example, you can probably find a math class across all sorts of different providers, but Blue Tent (as an example) doesn’t offer Great Books. It might have a great English program, but not an equivalent to what CLRC offers. Now if a family insisted they wanted GB but couldn’t find a secular provider, it is helpful to know what other alternatives are like. While I am guessing we probably wouldn’t be happy at Wilson Hill, we made CLRC work for us just fine. Obviously if secularism is the main driving force behind the decision for a certain provider, common sense suggests not to approach an Orthodox Christian school.