Anyone want to talk about Wandavision?

[Slache]

9 minutes ago, alisoncooks said:

What was Ultron? In the end-credit scene? 😲 Gosh, I hope not...but he didn't look friendly...

It was a good episode...but we're still dangling, without much new info. 

Yes, blue Vision. Vision is made out of Ultron and I think that thing is made out of Vision. So we're looking at Vision without the wisdom of the mind stone or the virtues installed by the Mewmew hammar. He's also Ultron's color.

[Slache]

The promo has Blision (blue Vision) as the implied big bad in the last few seconds.

 

[Alicia64]

Tonight's -- 2/26 -- was so good! I'm really loving watching an Avenger show w/ my teen that really absorbs me. (I also loved Iron Man and Hulk. Dr. Strange too. I loved Wonder Woman too, but different universe.)

[idnib]

Enjoyed the longer episode. I did feel the pacing was a bit off but I can't put my finger on it.

It was interesting to use the TV show (versus a movie) to show the MCU's take on what Wanda's backstory looks like.

[Noreen Claire]

On 2/26/2021 at 5:12 PM, Slache said:

Mewmew hammar.

OMG. I snorted! Thanks for this.

[idnib]

54 minutes ago, Seasider too said:

It did not answer why Vision had free agency within Wanda’s massive complex of spells. If I just missed that, someone please fill me in. 
I definitely still need to rewatch Age of Ultron. 

Yeah, it didn't answer that. What do you think about the idea that she gave him agency within since it was a retirement plan for both of them (ie in her mind everything is for him too, not just for her) and she knows he can't live outside anyway.

[Slache]

1 hour ago, Seasider too said:

Where is Rambeau?

With Fietro, who is controlled by the purple one.

[idnib]

Anyone else still thinking something isn't right with Dottie?

[alisoncooks]

So I've also been working my way through Agents of Shield on Netflix. There is an episode set in a Hydra facility, where we see a new employee getting a tour. He says he's there because of the "incentive program " (which turns out to mean that they've got your loved one, and you have no choice). 

Anyway: this new employee was Norm (or the actor that played Norm, lol). But...does the MCU reuse minor characters or have coincidences? IDK, but my theory is it's Norm that's in the Witness Protection program -- because he's hiding from Hydra. 

(DH says that this is a nope because Agents of Shield isn't considered canon...but I still like it, as unimportant theories go!)

[stephanier.1765]

On 2/13/2021 at 8:27 PM, Alicia64 said:

I love the show. Watch it w/ my Avengers-obsessed teen. I hadn't realized that Wanda is the little sister of Mary Kate and Ashley Olsen.

Duh, I know.

I'm just catching up on this thread since I'm late to the WandaVision game but there were several times I would mistake her for one of the twins so it's a relief to me to know there's a reason why. LOL

[idnib]

41 minutes ago, Seasider too said:

It’s kind of like an M Night film - now that I know the twist (who Agnes is) - I want to watch it all from the beginning. I’d keep my eye on Dottie then.

If you do re-watch, notice she's not on the bulletin board of townspeople and her house is in the (maybe?) intriguing position between Wanda and Agatha. Or it could be nothing--the MCU makes me look for little things that probably don't matter much!

[alisoncooks]

Idk how I feel about the finale. 

1. I was expecting more with/from Monica. 

and

2. 😭😭😭

 

[klmama]

I actually liked the finale!  Wanda and Vision handled themselves very well in their respective battles, and the final family scenes were lovely.  I wish there had been more... closure?... with the people of Westfield.  I like that the ending sets up Wanda for future movies.  Be sure to watch the scene after the end credits!  

 

[alisoncooks]

Yes! We missed the second end credit scene at first. That cabin looks all Baba Yaga, lol, minus the chicken feet. 😂

I suppose that was her astral projection studying the book, a la Doctor Strange?  Thoughts on hearing her children?

[TexasProud]

I LOVED the finale. I bawled. I didn't care for the final extra scene. Just too weird.  Such a creative job on this series. My husband had been out of town, so rewatching the series with him helped me see all of the extra touches they put in there. Very well done.

[klmama]

14 minutes ago, alisoncooks said:

Yes! We missed the second end credit scene at first. That cabin looks all Baba Yaga, lol, minus the chicken feet. 😂

I suppose that was her astral projection studying the book, a la Doctor Strange?  Thoughts on hearing her children?

I'm so glad you said it was the SECOND end credit scene!  I totally skipped the first one!  Now that I've gone back to see it, I'm very pleased.  More setting up the new Marvel movies!  🙂 

[alisoncooks]

7 hours ago, TexasProud said:

I LOVED the finale. I bawled. I didn't care for the final extra scene. Just too weird.  Such a creative job on this series. My husband had been out of town, so rewatching the series with him helped me see all of the extra touches they put in there. Very well done.

We cried, too. (Well, my youngest and I did -- we cry at almost everything sad in movies/tv.)

We think the kids are still alive, somewhere. But the Darkhold! Yikes. If you've watched Agents of Shield, it's super evil. It doesn't bode well. 

[Terabith]

I don't understand.  Is Agnes just being meat puppetted in Westview still?  And I'm confused about the second post credit scene.  Are the boys still alive somewhere?

[klmama]

1 hour ago, Terabith said:

I don't understand.  Is Agnes just being meat puppetted in Westview still?  And I'm confused about the second post credit scene.  Are the boys still alive somewhere?

Agnes has been given the role to play instead of being physically locked up someplace or being free to cause chaos. And it does seem like the boys must be alive somehow, maybe in another dimension which she's able to hear while in her astral projection?  I haven't read the comics, so I'm just guessing.

[heartlikealion]

This show is crazy. Like if Vision is dead how real are the children? And yet here we are attached to them and freaking out when they’re in danger. Or that’s just me lol 

I think tonight was the final ep of season 1. 

[heartlikealion]

Oops I missed an extra scene referenced above. I’ll have to go back and watch 

[heartlikealion]

18 minutes ago, Seasider too said:

The children aren’t real-real, they’re a figment of the reality Wanda created inside the hex. Same with Vision. 
 

I don’t believe there will be a season 2, I think Wandavision is a limited series bridging two marvel feature films. This last episode provided lead-ins for Dr Strange 2 and/or Captain Marvel 2. 

Yeah that’s what I mean... logically I say they aren’t real but yet I feel for her as she tries to save them. It’s a show so I always wonder if they will try to rationalize/explain she really had kids at some point. Which also would make no sense... was vision ever able to have a physical relationship in the bedroom? I mean no genitalia. So really more of an emotional than physical relationship. 

[alisoncooks]

I think we may see the twins again -- just not for a while (so maybe not these actors). The comic's Young Avengers storyline happens when they are teens and there are signs that we're building up to it. Cassie Lang is a member (Ant-Man) and so a protégé of Hawkeye. We'll see...

Also, re: logistics of the WandaVision physical relationship... I mean, the dude can transform himself a human face; who's to say he can't do the rest. 

[idnib]

Wanda really is a very gray character, isn't she? On the one hand we root for her, on the other hand she traumatized all these innocent people and seems to be learning from Agnes's book of darker magic.

I liked the scene with Wanda's runes. It felt like Agnes was going to regret asking for all of Wanda's power and that would be the climax of the fight, so when the runes came into play I was happy. Agnes must be regretting telling Wanda she has powers but not enough knowledge. It's not like Wanda can't learn!

We both cried when they tucked in the kids and were looking at each other.

[Pam in CT]

I have been ASSIDUOUSLY not coming into this thread for fear of spoilers. But now......

 

AHHHHHHHHHHHH

re Agnes' Regret

26 minutes ago, idnib said:

Wanda really is a very gray character, isn't she? On the one hand we root for her, on the other hand she traumatized all these innocent people and seems to be learning from Agnes's book of darker magic.

I liked the scene with Wanda's runes. It felt like Agnes was going to regret asking for all of Wanda's power and that would be the climax of the fight, so when the runes came into play I was happy. Agnes must be regretting telling Wanda she has powers but not enough knowledge. It's not like Wanda can't learn!

We both cried when they tucked in the kids and were looking at each other.

Indeed, and in that final very-scenic after-credit scene Wanda does appear to be working on the book knowledge, doesn't she.  For good or ill, is the question.

[Terabith]

42 minutes ago, Pam in CT said:

 

Indeed, and in that final very-scenic after-credit scene Wanda does appear to be working on the book knowledge, doesn't she.  For good or ill, is the question.

From what I know of the book, nobody ever really gets good from that book.  

She definitely is grey and did some horrible things, although I'm not sure she realized how much she was traumatizing them.  I think she really thought they were happy before, and to her credit, she sacrificed EVERYTHING when she realized the pain she was causing.  

[mom31257]

 

11 minutes ago, Terabith said:

She definitely is grey and did some horrible things, although I'm not sure she realized how much she was traumatizing them.  I think she really thought they were happy before, and to her credit, she sacrificed EVERYTHING when she realized the pain she was causing.  

I agree she should get credit for that. 

I LOVED the finale! What an amazing portrayal of grief this series has been. 

[heartlikealion]

12 hours ago, alisoncooks said:

I think we may see the twins again -- just not for a while (so maybe not these actors). The comic's Young Avengers storyline happens when they are teens and there are signs that we're building up to it. Cassie Lang is a member (Ant-Man) and so a protégé of Hawkeye. We'll see...

Also, re: logistics of the WandaVision physical relationship... I mean, the dude can transform himself a human face; who's to say he can't do the rest. 

I realized that today when I saw Legends. I said oh duh! But I doubt he’d be able to procreate. 

[klmama]

1 hour ago, heartlikealion said:

I realized that today when I saw Legends.

What is Legends?

[heartlikealion]

Just now, klmama said:

What is Legends?

Basically a recap that Disney plus threw together. A recap of some of Wanda’s life from other movies. I did rewatch some of the movies in full recently, too. 

[Terabith]

20 hours ago, Seasider too said:

The children aren’t real-real, they’re a figment of the reality Wanda created inside the hex. Same with Vision. 
 

I don’t believe there will be a season 2, I think Wandavision is a limited series bridging two marvel feature films. This last episode provided lead-ins for Dr Strange 2 and/or Captain Marvel 2. 

Yeah, I agree about being the lead in for Dr. Strange and Captain Marvel 2. 

But.....what is real?  I mean, that's the whole question about the conversation between Vision and White Vision, and also the connotations of the movie Tannhauser Gate playing in the theater.  

[Terabith]

2 minutes ago, Seasider too said:

Whoa. 
 

Another lead in for a second Captain Marvel (and, since space, my faves, GOG).

I think the whole parallel universe stuff can get really tricky. I’m willing to accept that there was current reality (outside the hex) and alternate reality (created by Wanda in the hex). Apparently the marquis with Blade Runner was shown twice, once in Episode 8 in the flashback before the hex was created, and again in ep 9 after the hex was breached. I’m going to have to go back and rewatch the conversation between Vision and White Vision. 
 

Very interesting. But I must confess the rabbit hole is getting a little too deep for me!

Oh, I didn't catch it in episode 8!!!  I'll have to go back and look at that!

It does feel like it's going pretty deep down the rabbit hole!

[Farrar]

I'm on the fence about the final two episodes. I feel like I'm going to go back and watch the whole thing again to decide. There were definitely moments of brilliance, but... I'm not completely sure if the tone shift ended up fully working or if they built enough of the end theme of grief into the beginning for the whole thing to hang together as well as I want. The thing I most wanted a payoff for was the Twilight Zone-esque horror that built slowly from the early episodes to the middle. And that... maybe never got paid off. 

In the finale, I loved Vision vs. Vision.

I needed WAY more Darcy in the finale. Like, one what the heck? Why not at least 30 seconds of what is a relatively major character here? Not to mention that it was so obvious that they felt the need to explain it away that she left. And two, I may have a crush on Kat Dennings and just wanted more of her.

 

[Terabith]

3 minutes ago, Farrar said:

I'm on the fence about the final two episodes. I feel like I'm going to go back and watch the whole thing again to decide. There were definitely moments of brilliance, but... I'm not completely sure if the tone shift ended up fully working or if they built enough of the end theme of grief into the beginning for the whole thing to hang together as well as I want. The thing I most wanted a payoff for was the Twilight Zone-esque horror that built slowly from the early episodes to the middle. And that... maybe never got paid off.

 

Totally agree.  I feel like a horrible person, but I really didn't like the last two episodes.  They felt, in so many ways, disjointed compared to the first seven.  

[Farrar]

Just now, Terabith said:

Totally agree.  I feel like a horrible person, but I really didn't like the last two episodes.  They felt, in so many ways, disjointed compared to the first seven.  

I liked some things about them a lot. But the disjointedness made it hard to appreciate them. I'm not sold on them, basically. 

My kid really, really hated that they brought Vision back essentially. He was like, that's so Marvel. Just give people consequences for once.

A friend pointed out that the whole grief-mad woman thing is a trope and a pretty tired, anti-feminist one as well. They felt that Marvel wanted to use that trope, but then didn't want it to be too trope-y so they tweaked it but that was part of what possibly undermined it. I'm thinking about whether I agree or not. I'm not sure. It's definitely a bit of a trope.

[mom31257]

11 minutes ago, Farrar said:

A friend pointed out that the whole grief-mad woman thing is a trope and a pretty tired, anti-feminist one as well. They felt that Marvel wanted to use that trope, but then didn't want it to be too trope-y so they tweaked it but that was part of what possibly undermined it. I'm thinking about whether I agree or not. I'm not sure. It's definitely a bit of a trope.

How can loving people so much that losing them alters you in unimaginable ways be anti-feminist? I think this was a very deep look into being human, not being a woman. 

Grief compounded upon grief is a very real and very difficult thing to deal with and wreaks a lot of havoc in people's lives. I watched my sister have years of it, and she is suffering still. Our mother died in 2014. Her husband had OCD, anxiety, and depression for over 10 years and committed suicide later that year. Their only son dealt with uncontrolled seizures and developmental delays his entire life, and he died in early 2017. So much sadness and loss changes people. 

[Farrar]

58 minutes ago, mom31257 said:

How can loving people so much that losing them alters you in unimaginable ways be anti-feminist? I think this was a very deep look into being human, not being a woman. 

Oh, definitely. I would say this is one of those things where a story in and of itself is not negative. Some people are crazy, some people buckle under pressure, some people are driven to do irrational things by grief. Those are good things to tell stories about. But when the same story with the same problem elements gets told again and again, it can become diminishing. The Wandavision writers have literally talked about the "crazy lady narrative" and hoping to get past it and be more nuanced because that's not a particularly empowering narrative.

I guess I'm trying to decide if they succeeded or not. Like, does it fall into portraying Wanda as nothing but a hysterical woman, defined by trauma and not able to cope with it - while meanwhile the Marvel men - who, by the way, have had just as much crap thrown at them if not more in some cases - manage to emerge okay. Or is it better than that?

Like, my gut says yes, it's better... because I thought the ending was strong and I really liked a lot of the scene with her and the kids and Vision at the end. But there are some things that pull at me. Were the town residents as traumatized as they said or was that Agatha pulling the strings? Why was it necessary for her to inflict that pain on them? And why did she do it really? At times she seems aware and at other times she seems utterly unaware. Which was it really? I'm not sure if they truly got that balance right once you poke at it a bit.

Just narratively, I'm bugged more by the tone shift, which I increasingly feel maybe didn't work as well as it could have. We have a quirky, very unusual show... with a very traditional Marvel movie ending. It undermined some of the emotional things for me.

[Lady Marmalade]

I'm looking forward to watching the whole thing again!  By the end it felt more like a Marvel movie than a limited series, so I'm going to try and find time to just sit and binge watch the whole thing in sequence. 

We love Marvel movies, and with a lack of them due to covid, this felt like such a gift to me to be able to watch something new within the universe.  I also always appreciate when a property sets up something for multiple new projects in the works.  That being said, I was under the impression that Wandavision was supposed to end with a much darker tone to help set up The Mansions of Madness.

I loved, loved, loved when the runes appeared on the hex walls! I thought she was doing something with all her misses, but hadn't guessed that!   And I absolutely LOVE her look at the end.  The Sacrlet Witch uniform is stunning. 

But can we talk for a moment about Pietro/Peter/Ralph?  I was definitely one of the nerd girls who squealed with utter joy when Peter was at wanda's door the first time.  That brought in thoughts about the multiverse and crossovers and thinking about all the possibilities to be considered, and then he ended up just being Ralph in the end.  So disappointing.  He'll still be one of the best parts of the series for me, but I'm thinking that means he won't be back as Quicksilver in an MCU property.

[klmama]

8 hours ago, Farrar said:

Just narratively, I'm bugged more by the tone shift, which I increasingly feel maybe didn't work as well as it could have. We have a quirky, very unusual show... with a very traditional Marvel movie ending. It undermined some of the emotional things for me.

Would you have preferred that it end with her standing alone in the vacant lot, so that we are left feeling the sadness of her sacrifice?  I think that would have been an effective ending, but it wouldn't have set the stage as well for the changes in her character in the upcoming movies.  I actually like that they build on Agatha's pronouncement that the Scarlet Witch will cause catastrophic destruction.   Wanda living alone in the wilderness (like Thanos!) and studying the Darkhold book of spells as an astral projection of herself both foreshadow the trouble to come.  I'm looking forward to seeing what happens!

[heartlikealion]

1 hour ago, Lady Marmalade said:

But can we talk for a moment about Pietro/Peter/Ralph?  I was definitely one of the nerd girls who squealed with utter joy when Peter was at wanda's door the first time.  That brought in thoughts about the multiverse and crossovers and thinking about all the possibilities to be considered, and then he ended up just being Ralph in the end.  So disappointing.  He'll still be one of the best parts of the series for me, but I'm thinking that means he won't be back as Quicksilver in an MCU property.

I felt the same. I was very fond of the Quicksilver from the movies that appeared at her door. 
If Agnes controlled Pedro and didn’t know that much about Wanda, how did she know they both dropped their accents? Or maybe Agnes knew a lot more than I thought. 

[idnib]

Hoping to find time to re-watch before Falcon and The Winter Soldier but I doubt that will happen.

I do agree grieving woman who's hysterical is a trope, but I think it's been turned on its head by the sheer strength of her power.

[Murphy101]

48 minutes ago, idnib said:

Hoping to find time to re-watch before Falcon and The Winter Soldier but I doubt that will happen.

I do agree grieving woman who's hysterical is a trope, but I think it's been turned on its head by the sheer strength of her power.

I don’t think so at all. It is a trope. Part of what makes it a trope is that it’s such a waste of strength and power that could be put to healthy good use.  No doubt a man would have done better with it is the usually narrative.

I think it’s possible she really didn’t comprehend the pain she was causing the people around her. It’s not like knowing and loving someone changes that sometimes people deeply hurt each other.  They get so caught up in their own selves that they can’t really see what’s around them.  Then when they get glimpses of it, the shame and guilt is so awful that they can’t stand to face it - they justify and reason it away. 

Not to say any of that makes it okay. But come on we know enough about basic psychology and life experience to comprehend it happens and it happens a lot.

But Wanda, unlike nearly all examples I can think of for men who make similar errors, Wanda faced it and did what she had to do to make it as right as she could knowing that she can’t ever really make it right and no one is ever going to forgive her for it. 

In examples where men make these mistakes - they always end up forgiven and not really quite giving everything up. 

[idnib]

24 minutes ago, Murphy101 said:

I don’t think so at all. It is a trope. Part of what makes it a trope is that it’s such a waste of strength and power that could be put to healthy good use.  No doubt a man would have done better with it is the usually narrative.

I agree with this. I guess I was thinking of a similar trope with a different, where the hysterical, grieving woman can do nothing and has to be slapped back into reality by a man and then takes to her bed.

[Murphy101]

21 minutes ago, idnib said:

I agree with this. I guess I was thinking of a similar trope with a different, where the hysterical, grieving woman can do nothing and has to be slapped back into reality by a man and then takes to her bed.

Well Vision didn’t slap her but he did tell her that he knows this can’t continue, I guess helping her see reason or giving her permission I suppose. Then she leaves to go to the dark hold. So basically yeah not really terribly different. 🤷‍♀️

[Pam in CT]

17 minutes ago, Murphy101 said:

Well Vision didn’t slap her but he did tell her that he knows this can’t continue, I guess helping her see reason or giving her permission I suppose. Then she leaves to go to the dark hold. So basically yeah not really terribly different. 🤷‍♀️

Are y'all totally persuaded she's definitely gone off to the dark side?  I know "she's" reading the dark book; but I'm kinda-sorta holding off hope that the reason she has Alter-Wanda doing the reading, as she (Alter-Wanda) appears (?) to be sort of trapped in something kinda-sorta like a hex, is that she's tried to segment Good Wanda from Learning From Dangerous Book Wanda. So that she can glean the knowledge but use it for good.

(That's an old trope too, and rarely pulled off; but given the alternatives that's the one I'm hoping for. I'm a total sucker for a good redemption arc.)

[bookbard]

@Pam in CT I didn't read it as her going off to the dark side at all. 

I was impressed at how they wrapped things up in one episode - I wondered how they'd do it. I have watched a few Marvel movies but not most and no X-Men ones. I think I enjoyed it more that way; I think the 'true fans' are more disappointed because they read more into it. I liked it for what it was, an exploration of how families and communities were presented on TV over time, and how life isn't so simple. And you have to deal with that. To me it wasn't just about grief, it was about trauma. I don't feel Wanda meant to - or even knew - that she'd hurt other people in her grief, in her pain. But when you focus on yourself alone and your family alone, that's what happens. You have to think of the whole community, sometimes you have to sacrifice for the community. Covid, anyone?

[Murphy101]

1 hour ago, Pam in CT said:

Are y'all totally persuaded she's definitely gone off to the dark side?  I know "she's" reading the dark book; but I'm kinda-sorta holding off hope that the reason she has Alter-Wanda doing the reading, as she (Alter-Wanda) appears (?) to be sort of trapped in something kinda-sorta like a hex, is that she's tried to segment Good Wanda from Learning From Dangerous Book Wanda. So that she can glean the knowledge but use it for good.

(That's an old trope too, and rarely pulled off; but given the alternatives that's the one I'm hoping for. I'm a total sucker for a good redemption arc.)

I’m not persuaded at all that she’s gone to the dark side.  

I think she got closure in this goodbye to Vision. And in some level, she still holds a deep hope of “saying hello again” to Vision in some future reality.  Of being someone those kids would “choose for their mom” again. Even if it never happens - being that person to them still matters to her.

[hjffkj]

2 hours ago, Murphy101 said:

I don’t think so at all. It is a trope. Part of what makes it a trope is that it’s such a waste of strength and power that could be put to healthy good use.  No doubt a man would have done better with it is the usually narrative.

I think it’s possible she really didn’t comprehend the pain she was causing the people around her. It’s not like knowing and loving someone changes that sometimes people deeply hurt each other.  They get so caught up in their own selves that they can’t really see what’s around them.  Then when they get glimpses of it, the shame and guilt is so awful that they can’t stand to face it - they justify and reason it away. 

Not to say any of that makes it okay. But come on we know enough about basic psychology and life experience to comprehend it happens and it happens a lot.

But Wanda, unlike nearly all examples I can think of for men who make similar errors, Wanda faced it and did what she had to do to make it as right as she could knowing that she can’t ever really make it right and no one is ever going to forgive her for it. 

In examples where men make these mistakes - they always end up forgiven and not really quite giving everything up. 

Interesting, I didn't think she did anything to own what she did to those people. When she realized it she was obviously upset but what did she do to make it right? She couldn't even face them when it was all said and done. She hid under her hood and walked passed them without saying a thing.

Am I missed I something? Dh and I actually talked about she didn't own what she did and actually made the excuse to Agatha that at least she didn't know she was doing it. I'd she were going to actually face it she wouldn't leave before the FBI were done in the town

[klmama]

5 hours ago, Pam in CT said:

Are y'all totally persuaded she's definitely gone off to the dark side?  I know "she's" reading the dark book; but I'm kinda-sorta holding off hope that the reason she has Alter-Wanda doing the reading, as she (Alter-Wanda) appears (?) to be sort of trapped in something kinda-sorta like a hex, is that she's tried to segment Good Wanda from Learning From Dangerous Book Wanda. So that she can glean the knowledge but use it for good.

(That's an old trope too, and rarely pulled off; but given the alternatives that's the one I'm hoping for. I'm a total sucker for a good redemption arc.)

I hope you're right! 

[hjffkj]

Dh seems to believe that Wanda has not gone dark. He believes the end credit scene is the lead in to Dr strange in which he recruits her to help him. He doesn't believe she is the big bad in the next Dr strange movie.