Weekend discussion topic: Cashless society

[MEmama]

I wonder why it largely works just fine in some countries—Iceland, for example, and someone mentioned China— yet Americans always think we are the exception?

Last time we went to Europe we didn’t bother exchanging any cash. There’s just no need for it. Like a lot of us, I haven’t touched the cash in my wallet since March.

I do understand the problems concerning underprivileged communities, but it’s not as if we can’t come up with solutions. All progress requires modern solutions; pretending otherwise just sets us further behind.
 

 

[SKL]

Another consideration is security / identity theft.  Also what happens when systems go down?  How are people to meet basic needs at times like that?  I don't think we will ever get to the point where those things aren't going to be a concern.  At least not in my lifetime.

[gardenmom5]

we're close to 'cashless'.

However, there are downsides for people who move around very frequently, and it would require them to change banks frequently.  or whose credit is so bad, there is a tight limit on for how much they can write a check - (or debit), or have on a credit card.  there are more out there than people realize.  payday loan company's (I fail to see much difference to a loan shark, except perhaps the loan amount, and how they go after you to repay it.) were made legit in those cases.  homeless frequently do not have bank accounts, of any kind.  let alone credit cards.

 

I won't even get into those who don't want to be "in the system" so they do all cash.   There are merchants who have such thin margins, they do cash because they can't afford the transaction fees.

 

[Dmmetler]

15 hours ago, marbel said:

A debit card is a card backed by cash at the bank. You deposit money into the account, the funds are available to you via your card.  There are also prepaid cards - people go to a location, Walmart may be one?, and add cash balance to the card.  

Which have substantial fees, and many of them expire, so if you leave money on it too long, it vanishes. We did one before sending a teen on a cross-country flight alone, since some things require to be done with cards vs cash, and it cost something like 10% of the amount in fees alone. That's not a good alternative for the people who can't afford a bank account because they can't keep a minimum balance through the month!

[Dmmetler]

22 minutes ago, MEmama said:

I wonder why it largely works just fine in some countries—Iceland, for example, and someone mentioned China— yet Americans always think we are the exception?

Last time we went to Europe we didn’t bother exchanging any cash. There’s just no need for it. Like a lot of us, I haven’t touched the cash in my wallet since March.

I do understand the problems concerning underprivileged communities, but it’s not as if we can’t come up with solutions. All progress requires modern solutions; pretending otherwise just sets us further behind.
 

 

Are those economies actually cashless, or is it more like it is here in the US, where you can be mostly cashless (even the soft drink machine at my center takes credit cards), but there is still an option to use cash? I will say that it was kind of a shock when I had to write a check for L's graduation fees because it was probably the first check I'd written in over a year, and I had to figure out where the heck the things were!

 

And, in comparison to Europe, etc, there's a much bigger social safety net there. I suspect that leads to fewer people being right on the edge where a bank fee makes a major difference. 

Edited February 13, 2021 by Dmmetler

[Pawz4me]

1 hour ago, JumpyTheFrog said:

People spend more when they swipe cards. I've heard 18% is common.

 

24 minutes ago, Carrie12345 said:

This is something that may be shifting.  Younger people, who have more experience with “digital money” than “paper money” have been talking about having stronger emotional ties/awareness to the alerts and instant balances their phones supply them with than they do to cash bills.

Some of us older people may want to work on owning our personal habits/impulses/comfort zones and accept that the generations below us have different experiences. 

I don't doubt that it may be true overall that people who use cards spend more than if they were using cash. But it's never been true for me personally, and I probably certainly qualify as an older person. I've never been able to quite explain why I'm like that. The closest I can figure out is that once I get cash from my account to my mind it's already spent. To my way of thinking once I take it out of the bank it's gone. So if I'm standing in Target contemplating a discretionary purchase and I've got cash I'm more apt to go ahead and get the item than if I have to swipe a card. That may not make sense to others, but it's the way my brain works.

 

7 minutes ago, gardenmom5 said:

we're close to 'cashless'.

However, there are downsides for people who move around very frequently, and it would require them to change banks frequently.

 

Not necessarily. Many banks now are strictly online, with no physical locations. Even with our credit union I don't see any reason we'd need to change if we moved. Everything can either be done easily online (mobile deposits, etc.) or there's a fairly easy workaround.

[1234]

I’m sure we’ll be there soon but we still use cash here. Just this past week we ended up having someone deliver/install a new range and another person came to fix the garage door. It’s Covid times and there was snow and ice on the ground so we tipped each worker with cash we keep on hand here. Every now and then one dc will order Doordash but forget to leave a decent tip so it helps to have cash on hand and we leave it in an envelope outside. I mostly use cards but I use cash still (a lot more than I still use checks). I’m in no hurry to be cashless. 

[HS Mom in NC]

11 hours ago, regentrude said:

Not really - with Venmo it is very easy to quickly send small amounts of money. Students use it all the time to split their pizza bill, reimburse the person who bought drinks for the group etc.

Yes.  We pay our homeschool ASL teacher with Paypal and our adult daughters for purchases on our behalf with Google Pay. It is a little annoying that different teachers only use certain apps.

[Ditto]

I really hope this never happens.  I am not for it and will fight going cashless to the bitter end. 

[SKL]

Are people saying that Europe is cashless?  Where in Europe?  Everywhere I've been has cash.

The most socially advanced European countries still have plenty of homeless people.  I am gonna guess they aren't perfectly set up for a cashless economy, but what do I know?

I do recall that in France, I couldn't even pee without having correct change at the train station, so ....

[katilac]

15 hours ago, Lady Marmalade said:

 And what happens in situations where there is power loss over a length of time? You can't get gas, food, water, shelter without a way to pay. 

 

13 hours ago, fairfarmhand said:

On Christmas Day, there was a bombing in Nashville. That bombing affected a major telecommunication network in our area. For days, many stores in our area couldn't process transactions with cards. You should have seen the craziness in the stores. People were so angry that they couldn't pay for their things.  

Right, it's not just power loss but telecommunications. After Hurricane Katrina, there were places that didn't take cards for weeks. We always did keep cash on hand for emergencies, but that made us realize that we weren't keeping enough. It might seem like a lot to keep $300 or $500 cash on hand, but that goes very quickly when every single purchase is cash (not even taking emergency purchases into account). 

2 hours ago, JumpyTheFrog said:

As captain of a team I had to order jerseys a few years ago. I was very specific that I wanted $16 cash. It took a few weeks for everyone to pay me because they'd forget to go to the ATM or ask if I took Venmo or Apple Pay. I occasionally pay for things online with PayPal, but I am not going to open accounts of every type because people can't plan ahead to go to the ATM.

This is why you just round up to $20 in these cases - people who have cash often have a twenty dollar bill, but almost no one has a ten, a five, and a one. Extra funds go to unexpected expenses or just refund at your leisure. 

1 hour ago, SKL said:

Another consideration is how kids can spend money if they are not old enough for a credit card.  I do send my kids into stores with my own credit card, and that usually works fine, but it isn't a solution for all situations.  And it's important for kids to get experience using money.

I agree that the concrete experience of using cash can be important for younger children, but many credit cards do allow minors to be authorized users. And now they have those special debit cards made for kids. 

1 hour ago, gardenmom5 said:

 There are merchants who have such thin margins, they do cash because they can't afford the transaction fees.

Good point, paying additional fees can really hurt certain companies. 

[MEmama]

23 minutes ago, SKL said:

Are people saying that Europe is cashless?  Where in Europe?  Everywhere I've been has cash.

The most socially advanced European countries still have plenty of homeless people.  I am gonna guess they aren't perfectly set up for a cashless economy, but what do I know?

I do recall that in France, I couldn't even pee without having correct change at the train station, so ....

No, I said we don’t bother with cash when we go to Europe because it’s not necessary. They are light years ahead of most of the US in this respect. 

When we planned our trip to Iceland (airline went under right before our trip so we didn’t get to go) everything we read cautioned travellers not to exchange cash because its accepted in so few places. 

I agree European social services aren’t nearly as advanced as Americans like to think they are. Unfortunately there are too many holes there, too. 

[Lucy the Valiant]

4 hours ago, Pawz4me said:

Yes. It's been many years since I've understood the advice to have cash on hand for emergencies. Stores rely on scanners to ring up items. Gas pumps require electricity to work. I figure the only good cash would do me in a long term power outage would be to buy some eggs from someone with chickens, or if it were during summer/early fall from the one farm stand near me. Or possibly from a very small mom-and-pop type store that could tally up items by hand (but I don't know of any of those anywhere near me). My MIL is of an age that she believes she has to have some cash on hand. She's convinced an end-of-the-world-as-we-know-it type event is coming. I tell her she'd be much better off to stock up on booze and other things people would be willing to trade for, but she doesn't get it. She can't make the connection about how dependent on electricity and connectivity we are now.

In my area, we do routinely lose power for storms or vehicle accidents, sometimes for multiple days. Our businesses in town (grocery stores, gas stations) immediately shift to all-cash payments, and they often have large generators so they have power when the rest of the town does not (this is how we get gas). The businesses are also usually first to get back online. 

I personally function nearly cash-less already, but I'm pretty philosophically opposed to an outside agency (gov?) imposing it, for a number of reasons. Right now the people who prefer to use cash can do so; the ones who prefer to use cards can do so, as well. Who or what benefits from eliminating cash altogether? (It's an interesting idea to think about.)

[madteaparty]

2 hours ago, Roadrunner said:

Credit card companies would love it. Small businesses, not so much. Tremendous amount in fees would be transferred from the latter to the former. 
 

 

It doesn’t have to go through credit card companies. In China at least you scan your phone to pay. 

Edited February 13, 2021 by madteaparty

[Carrie12345]

7 minutes ago, Lucy the Valiant said:

I personally function nearly cash-less already, but I'm pretty philosophically opposed to an outside agency (gov?) imposing it, for a number of reasons. Right now the people who prefer to use cash can do so; the ones who prefer to use cards can do so, as well. Who or what benefits from eliminating cash altogether? (It's an interesting idea to think about.)

I don’t envision a government imposition, but a natural near-death. Just like everything else through history.

[katilac]

11 minutes ago, madteaparty said:

It doesn’t have to go through credit card companies. In China at least you scan your phone to pay. 

Well, the mode of paying doesn't affect where the money is coming from, dh pays with his phone and it goes through his credit card. It has to go through something. In China, where are they pulling the money? Directly from a bank account? Are there fees? 

[Bootsie]

2 hours ago, MEmama said:

I wonder why it largely works just fine in some countries—Iceland, for example, and someone mentioned China— yet Americans always think we are the exception?

Last time we went to Europe we didn’t bother exchanging any cash. There’s just no need for it. Like a lot of us, I haven’t touched the cash in my wallet since March.

I do understand the problems concerning underprivileged communities, but it’s not as if we can’t come up with solutions. All progress requires modern solutions; pretending otherwise just sets us further behind.
 

 

I would not want to trade the advantages we have in the US for the disadvantages with what the Chinese have.  Yes, it "works" for their system to be almost cashless.  But it also means that the Chinese people cannot store their wealth in any way except a government controlled currency that can be devalued at any moment.  

There is a big difference between people deciding personally that it is easier for them to use electronic forms of payment rather than cash and having a more formal "cashless" system.  

[Spy Car]

2 hours ago, MEmama said:

I wonder why it largely works just fine in some countries—Iceland, for example, and someone mentioned China— yet Americans always think we are the exception?

Last time we went to Europe we didn’t bother exchanging any cash. There’s just no need for it. Like a lot of us, I haven’t touched the cash in my wallet since March.

I do understand the problems concerning underprivileged communities, but it’s not as if we can’t come up with solutions. All progress requires modern solutions; pretending otherwise just sets us further behind.
 

 

It is like saying underserved people should just get cars since horse and buggies have gone the way of the dodo.

It does not reflect the reality of a significant portion of our society. 

Bill

[Pawz4me]

7 minutes ago, katilac said:

Well, the mode of paying doesn't affect where the money is coming from, dh pays with his phone and it goes through his credit card. It has to go through something. In China, where are they pulling the money? Directly from a bank account? Are there fees? 

I believe if you use Venmo it goes from one bank account to another. There is no fee to use it, as far as I understand (my DH and grown sons all use it a lot, so my understanding comes from them).

[katilac]

The American government will not try to impose a cashless system until politicians no longer need discrete ways to pay bribes, drug dealers, and sex workers. So, pretty much never. 

[Bootsie]

My experience in Europe has been that electronic payments have been used much more than in the US but credit cards are much less likely to be used.  Either an electronic payment is made or cash is used.  DD is living in Austria. She pays her rent directly to her landlord electronically through the banking system.  She uses a debit card at the grocery store.  But, there are still a fair number of high-end restaurants which do not take credit cards and I have stayed at hotels which offer a discount for paying with cash rather than a credit card.  DD buys flour, eggs, milk, yogurt from the local farmers using cash.    

[katilac]

4 minutes ago, Pawz4me said:

I believe if you use Venmo it goes from one bank account to another. There is no fee to use it, as far as I understand (my DH and grown sons all use it a lot, so my understanding comes from them).

There is no fee to use it for personal transfers. And there is no fee to the user when making purchases, but there is a fee to the business. Venmo and other money-transfer services have to make money somehow, there is no essential difference from credit cards. 

[Pawz4me]

4 minutes ago, katilac said:

There is no fee to use it for personal transfers. And there is no fee to the user when making purchases, but there is a fee to the business. Venmo and other money-transfer services have to make money somehow, there is no essential difference from credit cards. 

DH and the boys use it to shuffle money back and forth to each other. DH uses it to pay for his hair cuts. His stylist says she pays no fees. Now maybe she's cheating and has it set up as a personal account rather than business? That IDK. My dog groomer and my hairstylist charge a fee to pay by card but not to pay by Venmo. Again--I don't know how they have their accounts set up. It wouldn't surprise me if my stylist has it set up with her personal checking account--she's a one woman, small operation. But my groomer runs are fairly large and bustling business. I can't imagine she'd get away with it? Anyway--experience tells me small businesses are using it w/o paying fees, or at least w/o passing the fees on to customers as they do for using cards.

Edited February 13, 2021 by Pawz4me

[Bootsie]

7 minutes ago, Pawz4me said:

I believe if you use Venmo it goes from one bank account to another. There is no fee to use it, as far as I understand (my DH and grown sons all use it a lot, so my understanding comes from them).

My understanding is that you have a Venmo account balance.  So, you may have $500 in Venmo.  If someone pays you via Venmo, that balance increases (not your bank balance).   If you pay someone via Venmo, that account balance falls.  

  You can then move that money to your bank if you like.  Or, you can move money from your bank to your Venmo. If you want to immediately transfer the funds there is a 1% charge (with a 25 cent minimum).  If you decide to move the money and allow 2-3 days for it to be moved, there is no charge.  

[MEmama]

19 minutes ago, Spy Car said:

It is like saying underserved people should just get cars since horse and buggies have gone the way of the dodo.

It does not reflect the reality of a significant portion of our society. 

Bill

No. Coming up with solutions as the world progresses is not saying that at all. I do not appreciate being made out to be something opposite of who I am or what my values are. 

[Bootsie]

According to the Venmo site, the cost to businesses is 1.9% to 10 cents per transaction, but they have some offers for "no fees" for a limited time.  

[Spy Car]

Just now, MEmama said:

No. Coming up with solutions as the world progresses is not saying that at all. I do not appreciate being made out to be something opposite of who I am or what my values are. 

Sorry, but the reality is we are very (very) far off from a world where those who live on the margins could get by in a cashless society.

Not recognizing that is clueless.

Bill

[MEmama]

Just now, Spy Car said:

Sorry, but the reality is we are very (very) far off from a world where those who live on the margins could get by in a cashless society.

Not recognizing that is clueless.

Bill

Thank you for insinuating I am clueless.

Too bad you know nothing about me or my experiences. 

[Roadrunner]

I feel ancient. Never heard of Venmo. 

[Spy Car]

8 minutes ago, MEmama said:

Thank you for insinuating I am clueless.

Too bad you know nothing about me or my experiences. 

Do you honestly think we are anywhere near the point in this country where going entirely cashless would not have a devastating effect on the most marginalized members of our society? I do not.

Bill

[Guest]

2 hours ago, Carrie12345 said:

This is something that may be shifting.  Younger people, who have more experience with “digital money” than “paper money” have been talking about having stronger emotional ties/awareness to the alerts and instant balances their phones supply them with than they do to cash bills.

Some of us older people may want to work on owning our personal habits/impulses/comfort zones and accept that the generations below us have different experiences. 

Yes. This is what I was saying about what kids actually need to learn. Spending actual dollars is not really what they need to learn because kids currently in upper teens and early twenties already spend little to no cash. 

My kids told me when they were in their upper teens, they didn’t want bills for gifts anymore, like as a graduation gift or Christmas gift. I remember telling my dd it was somewhat unsatisfying as a parent to just transfer money digitally into her account, but she told me she much prefers it. If I gave her physical money, she would just have to go get it broken down and even then, she didn’t really want to mess with pulling out cash if she’s at Chipotle or something. 

I totally agree with your second paragraph. We older people can certainly train ourselves to spend appropriately, regardless of the transaction means. 

[Halftime Hope]

 

39 minutes ago, katilac said:

The American government will not try to impose a cashless system until politicians no longer need discrete ways to pay bribes, drug dealers, and sex workers. So, pretty much never. 

The powerful and criminals always have a fall guy for whatever they want to do. 

 

 

Edited February 13, 2021 by Halftime Hope

[MEmama]

10 minutes ago, Spy Car said:

Do you honestly think we are anywhere near the point in this country where going entirely cashless would not have a devastating effect on the most marginalized members of our society? I do not.

Bill

Nowhere have I said as much.

But yes going cashless or largely so is probably inevitable. Change and progress happen whether we prepare or not; I am always in favour of preparing.

[Bootsie]

6 minutes ago, Quill said:

Yes. This is what I was saying about what kids actually need to learn. Spending actual dollars is not really what they need to learn because kids currently in upper teens and early twenties already spend little to no cash. 

My kids told me when they were in their upper teens, they didn’t want bills for gifts anymore, like as a graduation gift or Christmas gift. I remember telling my dd it was somewhat unsatisfying as a parent to just transfer money digitally into her account, but she told me she much prefers it. If I gave her physical money, she would just have to go get it broken down and even then, she didn’t really want to mess with pulling out cash if she’s at Chipotle or something. 

I totally agree with your second paragraph. We older people can certainly train ourselves to spend appropriately, regardless of the transaction means. 

I agree that older children need to learn these skills.  But, I think children who are not old enough to have the math skills or to think so abstractly can benefit from learning about spending/saving.  At that point I don't think it is so much about teaching to spend in a particular way (which may be outdated in a few years anyway), but more about the concept.  I think many children benefit from something tangible.  Just like it is easier for younger children to know that they have to spend a red token to get to watch a TV show (or play a video game, or something else) and they have five red tokens they can use than to have a record (Paper or electronic) that tells them they have five hours to watch TV shows.  

[Spy Car]

3 minutes ago, MEmama said:

Nowhere have I said as much.

But yes going cashless or largely so is probably inevitable. Change and progress happen whether we prepare or not; I am always in favour of preparing.

But the claim that going entirely cashless is "progress" when a significant segment of our society would be devastated in the process is not "progress."

That's the point.

Bill

Edited February 13, 2021 by Spy Car

[Pawz4me]

11 minutes ago, Quill said:

 

My kids told me when they were in their upper teens, they didn’t want bills for gifts anymore, like as a graduation gift or Christmas gift. I remember telling my dd it was somewhat unsatisfying as a parent to just transfer money digitally into her account, but she told me she much prefers it. If I gave her physical money, she would just have to go get it broken down and even then, she didn’t really want to mess with pulling out cash if she’s at Chipotle or something. 

 

I'm pretty sure DS22 has had the same $100 or so in his wallet for about four years now. I think he never touches it.

[MEmama]

Just now, Spy Car said:

But the claim that going entirely cashless is "progress" when a significant segment of our society would be devastated in the process is not "progress."

That's the point.

Bill

We progress. Society and cultures progress. Social norms progress. Problems are anticipated or are created and solutions ensue. 

Nowhere ever, in my entire life, have I dismissed the underprivileged. 

Seriously, you are picking a weird person to argue with here. 

 

[Spy Car]

Just now, MEmama said:

We progress. Society and cultures progress. Social norms progress. Problems are anticipated or are created and solutions ensue. 

Nowhere ever, in my entire life, have I dismissed the underprivileged. 

Seriously, you are picking a weird person to argue with here. 

 

I hope we progress. But cutting out the means of economic participation from those who lack smartphones, bank accounts, or permanent addresses is about the most regressive action we as a society could take. It would be devastating to those individuals.

Hardly a "weird" argument at all. I don't think you've thought this through.

Bill

[Guest]

6 minutes ago, Bootsie said:

I agree that older children need to learn these skills.  But, I think children who are not old enough to have the math skills or to think so abstractly can benefit from learning about spending/saving.  At that point I don't think it is so much about teaching to spend in a particular way (which may be outdated in a few years anyway), but more about the concept.  I think many children benefit from something tangible.  Just like it is easier for younger children to know that they have to spend a red token to get to watch a TV show (or play a video game, or something else) and they have five red tokens they can use than to have a record (Paper or electronic) that tells them they have five hours to watch TV shows.  

Sure. I had a token system years ago; I used poker chips. A poker chip was worth 30 minutes of screen time and the only exception was a family movie. But as far as actual money goes, I know that by the time my youngest was the age for an allowance (I think he was six), my other kids infrequently got cash from me. It was just adding more steps to the process, especially with my son because the purchases were hardly ever made at a B&M store. So it wasn’t like seeing a candy bar and counting out the money needed to buy it. It was always happening by digital transfer or a mental activity like this:

”This game you want to get off Steam is $34, and you have $68 in your bank account right now and you will get $8 more this Friday. So how much money will you have in your account once you buy the game?” 

Also, sidenote: all my kids got parent/child “learner” accounts with my bank, so they had a chance to learn to use debit cards pretty early but in a protected way. 

[Bootsie]

DS was working as a valet.  Many customers paid tips in cash.  The company instituted a policy of not allowing cash tips.  The tips the valets received dropped to almost zero.  DS is quite adept at using Venmo and other electronic means of payments, but he never minded receiving bills as a tip.  

[katilac]

45 minutes ago, Pawz4me said:

DH and the boys use it to shuffle money back and forth to each other. DH uses it to pay for his hair cuts. His stylist says she pays no fees. Now maybe she's cheating and has it set up as a personal account rather than business? That IDK. My dog groomer and my hairstylist charge a fee to pay by card but not to pay by Venmo. Again--I don't know how they have their accounts set up. It wouldn't surprise me if my stylist has it set up with her personal checking account--she's a one woman, small operation. But my groomer runs are fairly large and bustling business. I can't imagine she'd get away with it? Anyway--experience tells me small businesses are using it w/o paying fees, or at least w/o passing the fees on to customers as they do for using cards.

Venmo has been running a promotion for business profiles that ends soon: 

"Are there any fees?

Currently, there are no additional fees associated with business profiles. Starting April 1, 2021, Venmo will charge the owner of the business profile a per-transaction fee of 1.9% + $0.10 on every payment made to the profile."

Somebody at some point is paying Venmo money, or Venmo wouldn't exist. 

[katilac]

Just now, Bootsie said:

DS was working as a valet.  Many customers paid tips in cash.  The company instituted a policy of not allowing cash tips.  The tips the valets received dropped to almost zero.  DS is quite adept at using Venmo and other electronic means of payments, but he never minded receiving bills as a tip.  

No cash tips for a valet? That's nuts. 

How are they supposed to tip? 

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, Bootsie said:

DS was working as a valet.  Many customers paid tips in cash.  The company instituted a policy of not allowing cash tips.  The tips the valets received dropped to almost zero.  DS is quite adept at using Venmo and other electronic means of payments, but he never minded receiving bills as a tip.  

As a sidebar, I would be happy to see tipping go extinct, or remain only as the “beer money” style tipping as in France. I think folks in service jobs should simply be paid appropriately and no tip expected. 

[Bootsie]

2 minutes ago, katilac said:

No cash tips for a valet? That's nuts. 

How are they supposed to tip? 

What was more crazy was it was a free valet service if you had your parking validated by a merchant.  So, the company expected a customer to stop and put in all of their credit card information, cell phone number, license plate, etc. to provide a tip.  (It wasn't where most people were just adding a tip to a bill).  People were not going to spend the time to do that, so were just leaving without paying any tip of tip.  

The valet company was wanting to market themselves as a "tech" company.  They were looking for a way to collect customer information via credit card tips.  

[gardenmom5]

I've just been reminded of why cash is essential for certain transactions . . . . 

I'm selling my sons loft bed.  I'm not asking much, I want it out (I'm not ready to just give it away).  The guy did NOT want to go through craigslist relay (but the email address was for a legit business, so I replied - though he replied to me with a 3rd email address.) wants to give me a cashier's check, and another 50% just to hold if for him because he's "really busy, and out of town".  (sweetheart - I have 8" of snow on my hill, and it's still snowing.  4WDs with chains aren't coming or going.)  I can see how some people would be tempted by this - I'm not. It's not that I don't trust you, but . . . I don't trust you.   You can give me cash when you pick it up. 

It is not the first time I have had something like that - the last time I'm sure would have proven to be a  scam.  The "woman" (I assume it was a woman, it was for an expensive dress)  - became rather hysterical and defensive when I told her the person picking up the item could give me cash.  As I insisted on cash - I never heard from her again.  I expect I wont' hear from this guy again either.  Sure sign it was a scam.

Never take money orders, checks, etc. when selling, and if they offer more, it's usually because they're appealing to your greed so you'll ignore common sense - they usually end up bouncing.  And you end up eating it.  you have no money, and no merchandise.

[Bootsie]

2 minutes ago, Quill said:

As a sidebar, I would be happy to see tipping go extinct, or remain only as the “beer money” style tipping as in France. I think folks in service jobs should simply be paid appropriately and no tip expected. 

I agree with this.  But, my experience in Europe is that most of the "beer money" is in the form of cash.  

[gardenmom5]

4 minutes ago, Quill said:

As a sidebar, I would be happy to see tipping go extinct, or remain only as the “beer money” style tipping as in France. I think folks in service jobs should simply be paid appropriately and no tip expected. 

Depending upon the restaurant - tips can add up to way more than a $15hr base salary.  (especially where expensive booze is served).   

We've had $15 an hour minimum wage for restaurant workers in certain areas for awhile - what they learned was they ended up with fewer hours and took home less money.

[Moonhawk]

I'm pretty sure in Star Trek, the prerequisite to a moneyless society was the solving of poverty, hunger, and homelessness. Once these were no longer a factor in society, it was a natural progress that since everyone had everything they needed and were focused on bettering themselves and being productive members of society, money was no longer needed. [Yes, I know that a cashless society is not the same as a moneyless society.]

In a similar way, I think that there are certain baseline requirements for a cashless society. I would propose:

• free public internet, with full or near-full coverage even of hard-to-go places where you find people
• everyone having a digital device. like, literally everyone, you're given one as a child or something.
• options to secure your balance "offline" somehow
• options to pay during power outages -- registers having their own power cell and connection, for example
• Bonus: a way to secure your balance from being lost. One of the biggest "risks" of cash is losing your wallet and then all of your money is gone, it can't be reclaimed or stopped like a debit or credit card. I think if the new model had something to prevent easy theft, it would be an incentive to have people move to it.

Edited February 13, 2021 by Moonhawk

[madteaparty]

2 hours ago, katilac said:

Well, the mode of paying doesn't affect where the money is coming from, dh pays with his phone and it goes through his credit card. It has to go through something. In China, where are they pulling the money? Directly from a bank account? Are there fees? 

I believe it’s through an ap called wechat. I don’t know about fees as it was not available to me, I tried. 

[madteaparty]

53 minutes ago, Quill said:

As a sidebar, I would be happy to see tipping go extinct, or remain only as the “beer money” style tipping as in France. I think folks in service jobs should simply be paid appropriately and no tip expected. 

It’s happening already in some NYC restaurants 👍