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How much do you take into account your child’s preferences when choosing math curriculum?


Gobblygook
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When I started out homeschooling, I only had enough money to buy CLE math and language arts, SOTW and Mystery Science. We read a lot of books, watched a lot of documentaries and my two older boys did just fine. They both have a solid academic foundation even if the work wasn’t always riveting.

My daughter is younger and much more opinionated on what she does for school. She is now in 5th grade.  For 3rd and 4th grade, she went part-time to a homeschool hybrid program, primarily for social reasons. She loved it at the time, but now I’m finding some real gaps in her education, particularly in math. She likes things that are hands-on, so we’re using MUS Epsilon this year. She is so bored doing fractions every day. At the same time, she’s not strong on mental math or her math facts which make everything so much harder. I pulled out a CLE 4th grade light unit to try out today and she had trouble with it. But honestly, I think it might be what she needs — more review, the spiral, more variety. It’s just that the lessons are so much longer than MUS and she thinks it’s boring. We also have Beast Academy online that we use for review/variety and while she likes it well enough, she gets tired of it when she does it too often. We’ve tried Math Mammoth and Singapore, too, and she didn’t care for any of them. 

I guess my question is: do you just get to a point where you say, this is what we’re doing and suck it up, or do you continually try to tweak and find what is the best fit for a particular child? I don’t want her to hate math, but I do want her to have a strong foundation, and she’s not where she needs to be as a 5th grader at this point.  

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I am more the "this is what we are doing, suck it up type," to an extent.  If child is really struggling, I will add or tweak things, but rarely have I every switched around a lot.  
 

In K with one, I got tired of daily tears using the same math I had used for the previous child in K.  So I put it up and used an off the shelf Walmart colorful workbook for her with lots of coloring and cut and paste and we did some math through literature units I found a long time ago I think through the free lessons with the Core Knowledge Sequence online.  The next year I moved her back into the tear causing math, and she was ready to handle it then.  In middle school when she was still struggling with basic facts, we slowed down the progression, added in some hands on methods for different learners from some special ed books I had bought, but basically kept moving forward in the same curric.  She is now in high school, and is getting Algebra, though later than some, and still plans to get through Algebra 2 before she graduates.  My first had no troubles in math.  I never switched her around.  My ydd has no issues in 1st grade so far.  So the only reason I played around with the one, is because she has some learning differences. When the odd got grumpy about math, it was kind of just a get er done kind of thing, since she didn't struggle. 

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I give options, but only options I think will work.  And I'll switch things around by request if they have a good reason, but "it's fastest/easiest" doesn't cut it.  So I guess I fall a bit in the middle.  It's always a conversation for us but I'm the one that decides at the end of the day.

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31 minutes ago, Coco_Clark said:

I give options, but only options I think will work.  And I'll switch things around by request if they have a good reason, but "it's fastest/easiest" doesn't cut it.  So I guess I fall a bit in the middle.  It's always a conversation for us but I'm the one that decides at the end of the day.

Yep, this is about what I do also!

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I'm with the ladies above: I welcome my kids' input and accommodate it to some degree, but I have the final say.  DD insisted she wanted to do BA because her math-loving brother was doing it.  I already had the books and I know it's a rigorous curriculum, so that was fine with me.  After two years she said, "Mom, I proved to myself that I could do it, but it's made me hate math.  Could I try something different?"  Since that matched how I felt about her math experience, I gladly switched her to MM (which I actually think looks comparatively boring) and she LOVES it.  There comes a point, however, where I do declare, "Like Daddy says about his job, 'It's called work for a reason.  It's not always going to be fun, but it always has to be done.'"  Sometimes they've got to eat their veggies, literally or figuratively, painful and miserable as it may be for all of us.  (I've had plenty of experience with this with my youngest--both with schoolwork and eating, both of which I'm still trying to navigate with him--so I sympathize with the frustration and exhaustion it causes.)

One thing to consider: If you feel like her mental math and math facts aren't up to par, you could focus on those and see if it helps her issue overall.  I had all my kids do games on Reflex Math (now called Time4MathFacts for homeschools) daily for...probably at least a semester.  They didn't hate it (one loved it, one liked it, one tolerated it) because they could choose the game they liked best and it adjusted the speed of the games based on a quick typing exercise they did every time to see what their reaction speed was like for that day.  (This was one of my favorite features, since the timer idea stresses them out and YDS is a really slow processer.)  It had them focus on just one fact family at a time and gradually add more.  At any rate, I feel like the consistent--and not abhorrent--fact practice made the whole of math easier/smoother.

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I always take into consideration my kids' likes and dislikes when it comes to curriculum but "it's boring" does not cut it around here. It's boring is a complaint. Not everything is going to be fun and sometimes you have to learn things that aren't interesting to you. Now if they tell me "it is boring because the explanations are too long and I can't remember what I was doing by the time I get to the end of the explanation." I will absolutely take that into consideration and give them appropriate choices with shorter explanations possibly or help them work their current curriculum in a way that makes more sense to them. But if they only have "it's boring" and can't tell me why it is boring or what is causing the problem, I will register it as nothing more than a complaint.

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I take my child's opinion on math curriculum into account 0% of the time.  The only reason I would change curriculum is if I thought it was legitimately not working.  But I also see math curriculum mostly as ready-made problem banks.  I'm still the one doing the teaching, so curriculum is significantly less relevant.  

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I have, but probably to my kid’s detriment.

He complained about Singapore being too hard/boring, so I switched to BA, which he also said was too hard/boring, so I switched to MLFLE, which he has overall enjoyed and not complained about. However, he was completely capable of both the other curriculums and is a pretty mathy kid. MLFLE is light and I don’t think I did him any favors by not pushing him...now I read he is behind and has gaps. However, it has also helped him enjoy math again, so IDK. I am considering two different math curriculums for next year for him, and I will probably give him the option to decide. Both will be more rigorous than what he is doing now, but one moreso than the other. However, I will be fine with either. I think it’s like how you’re supposed to offer “choices” to little kids...”red shirt or blue shirt”, when you’re fine with either shirt. But you don’t offer them the green shirt if you don’t want them to wear it! 

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Preferences? None.
LOL, Ds would prefer not to do any math! 

I researched curricula very thoroughly and made a choice. We didn’t do any switching, though I supplemented for one kid to add more spiral review.

I did change presentation some to suit different learning styles.
 

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My kids are 2E with special needs, so I am constantly tweaking, but it is almost never in response to their preferences.

My kids really struggle with social and language skills, so even the 11 year old would never be able to articulate something like, "it is boring because the explanations are too long and I can't remember what I was doing by the time I get to the end of the explanation." When riding in a car, my kids can't even think through and express something like, "It's too hot back here. Could you turn down the heat?"

Also, since they are very rigid thinkers, I have to be very careful about letting them know I am questioning the appropriateness of a curriculum, because then they will start to push back against it hard.

So, what I have settled on is a "State of Your Schooling" system. Once a semester, or more often if I think there is a problem I want to address, I give every child a list of each resource they are currently using and they rank it - either with smiles and frowns when they are young or numbers when they are older. Then, even if really I only think a change needs to be made in math, I go through and talk to each child about each of their subjects. This gives them practice with introspection skills, let's me see if there are issues I hadn't noticed, and allows me to probe the problem areas I am concerned about without letting the child know I am questioning their current curriculum.

Some other positives I have found with this method:
- I am able to make small, inconsequential tweaks that boost morale (a child wants to split their daily math into two shorter sessions)
- It is a convenient time to clean out school drawers and make sure they are only holding currently-used resources
- It gives me a chance to talk to kiddos about where we are headed in their subjects and what they want to learn about

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With math curriculum?  The kids have no input. I’m of some strong opinions on math and math instruction. I know the end goal I want the kids to achieve, so I’m choosing the tool to get us there. So like others, I did my research on the curriculum that best matches my desires. 

Now having said all that, I do try to keep my pulse on how they are feeling about the course. And we can talk about making tweaks to the implementation of the curriculum that might be more agreeable to the student.  And I’ll listen to their complaints about the curriculum, but the kids are not likely to dissuade me from my curriculum choice.   They don’t spend hours in the Hive researching all the options. Hahaha.  
 

Now with other elementary subjects like History or Science, I might be more open to their feedback on the curriculum. But math?  Nope. I’m too opinionated. 😂

(also, no matter what subject, I usually tell everyone -including myself- to give the new thing a try for 6 weeks before even considering changing to something else. Tweaks would be ok before the 6 week mark, but any major changes generally have to wait.)

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15 hours ago, wendyroo said:

My kids really struggle with social and language skills, so even the 11 year old would never be able to articulate something like, "it is boring because the explanations are too long and I can't remember what I was doing by the time I get to the end of the explanation." When riding in a car, my kids can't even think through and express something like, "It's too hot back here. Could you turn down the heat?"

 

Of course I was generalizing my experience with mostly neurotypical kids for the sake of brevity. My older kids had parent-student conferences with me at the end of each semester starting in 5th grade where we would discuss what was working for them and what wasn't. Sometimes, especially in early middle school, I would have to tease out an explanation for "It's boring" or "I don't like it." But it didn't take long for them to start thinking about why they didn't like something so they could tell me and we could make changes. 

I'm already training my not-quite neurotypical 8yo (apraxia, adhd, and possible high functioning autism) to tell me what he likes and doesn't like about his schoolwork. He told me the other day, of his own volition, that he likes his current math because there aren't so many problems on the page so it doesn't seem as overwhelming to him. Of course, he didn't use those exact words but that was the gist of it. Maybe he is more neurotypical than I thought?

Now that I think about it, I constantly ask my kids for feedback on what they like and what they don't about their school work. When we start a new curriculum or they particularly seemed to enjoy a lesson (or dislike a lesson) I ask them what they thought, what they liked, what they didn't. Sometimes I use that feedback to adjust things for the better. Sometimes I just store that information for possible future use and sometimes I just ask because I'm curious what they are thinking. I didn't realize that was unusual in any way but it does seem I'm in the minority here.

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I do take my kids' preferences into account, but it's easy for me, since I write their lessons myself. I think this has led to both good and bad outcomes. On the good side, DD8 loves math and is very comfortable with it, and she feels like she has a lot of agency about her learning. On the bad side, we're currently struggling about noncompliance issues, and I'm sure that giving her lots of choices contributed to that. 

I think my optimal outcome is the one where the kids have global input but not local input. I would like them to tell me what they'd like to learn about and why and what they are enjoying and why, and then I don't want to hear their opinions about the specific route we're taking to get there! This is a work in progress, though. 

 

On 2/12/2021 at 4:15 PM, Gobblygook said:

She loved it at the time, but now I’m finding some real gaps in her education, particularly in math. She likes things that are hands-on, so we’re using MUS Epsilon this year. She is so bored doing fractions every day. At the same time, she’s not strong on mental math or her math facts which make everything so much harder.

From everything I've seen, MUS is really boring. If she's bored, I wouldn't insist on this specific curriculum. 

I'd agree with a previous poster and suggest that you spend some more time on mental math and her math facts. I'd also try to detangle where the issues are. Do you think her place value model is solid? And I don't mean, "she can name 10s and 1s," I mean, can she use place value to add, subtract, multiply and divide without using an algorithm. Can she coherently explain what she's doing? 

As for math facts, I would probably try to remediate that. Does she have good strategies for addition and multiplication? And if she does, has she done any drilling? 

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I take my kids' preferences into account, but I also know that I have a better idea of what they need to know and what will be expected of them later than they do.  So, practicing math facts may be non-negotiable but I don't necessarily care how they do it - a '1 minute drill' workbook page, an online game,  or flash cards with M&M rewards will all accomplish the goal.  They might argue that they don't need to learn math facts, but that's not something that they knew enough to be correct about because little kids don't know that long division or equivalent fractions are coming, but mom does.  Adults can have different ideas of what their baseline for acceptable learning is, obviously, but most of us have some idea of what we expect our kids to be able to do.  

With some subjects I give my kids a choice of X or Y, but if we've tried a couple of things over the years and they don't like any of them then I tend to tell them that they can pick the 'least bad' option or I can pick the one that's easiest for me.  One of my kids hated spelling but couldn't spell...and not doing spelling was not an option even though they complained about everything that we did.  If the kids ever make a specific complaint or request, I try to take it into account or tweak the lesson to deal with it.  One kid hated a particular workbook but it turned out that they hated the word find - the thing that was supposed to be 'fun' after doing the other work.  We just skipped it and that was fine.  If the part that they had hated was 'alphabetize your spelling words' and I wanted them to learn to alphabetize, then they would have needed to do it anyway.

One other thing that is hard to sort out is that kids use the word 'boring' to describe both things that are too hard and things that are too easy.  I mean, too easy is obviously boring, but 'difficult enough to be frustrating' or 'I don't know where to start' also get called 'boring' by many kids, as can 'I don't like it'.  I've tried everything to get one of mine to enjoy history - videos, hands-on crafty things, workbooks, living books, doing history in the context of art or music...we're now mostly using a textbook because they don't like anything but skipping history altogether is not OK and this is the most effecient way to do it.  

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36 minutes ago, Clemsondana said:

One other thing that is hard to sort out is that kids use the word 'boring' to describe both things that are too hard and things that are too easy.  I mean, too easy is obviously boring, but 'difficult enough to be frustrating' or 'I don't know where to start' also get called 'boring' by many kids, as can 'I don't like it'.  

This is a major issue at our house. If a kiddo is working on math and stops to tell me his toe hurts, it could mean "my toe is broken", "I bumped my toe three days ago", "I have to go to the bathroom", "I wish it wasn't raining", "My math is too frustratingly difficult", "I'd rather be playing than doing math", "my hand is tired of writing", "I want attention", or anything in between.

Even with my older kids, I have to read between all the lines and never take anything at face value.

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This doesn't answer your general advice question, but for a curriculum/supplement alternative, have you looked at Kate Snow's Math Facts that Stick series? Could be a good way to shore up her math facts for a break, but you're not committing to a whole new curriculum. After that Right Start has a fractions "tutoring kit".

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5 minutes ago, Foofaraw said:

This doesn't answer your general advice question, but for a curriculum/supplement alternative, have you looked at Kate Snow's Math Facts that Stick series? Could be a good way to shore up her math facts for a break, but you're not committing to a whole new curriculum. After that Right Start has a fractions "tutoring kit".

Yes - great suggestion. We are working on the Multiplication book now, but it’s taking longer than I’d hoped. I do have the Division book on the shelf as well. 

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If they are absolutely drowning and reduced to tears on a daily basis, yes, I will switch. But "this is boring"? Nope. You know what was boring? Doing data entry for 8 hours a day for a company that tested for contaminants like asbestos. 😛

I will pick manipulatives or tweak story problems that interest my kids, though. For example, my 6-year-old board game fanatic was having a hard time with 8-2. I got out a 100 chart and had him pretend it was a game board. I said "Okay, you roll the dice and go forward 8 spaces" (tap pencil on each number until it is on the 8 on the chart) "but you drew a card that says to move back 2 spaces. Which way should you go? Right. And which spot do you land on?" 

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Am I the only one on here that seriously reroutes based on kid preferences? It’s probably because I don’t use curriculum, right? I write my kids problems every day, and I’ve recently become organized enough that I do it the night before instead of the same day in the morning 😉 .

So I can easily take preferences into account. I also know which things need to be done in sequence and which don’t. So we started on serious algebra before we ever defined a rhombus, lol. We did binary before DD8 did fractions. Why not, when you’re making your own, right? 

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5 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

Am I the only one on here that seriously reroutes based on kid preferences? It’s probably because I don’t use curriculum, right? I write my kids problems every day, and I’ve recently become organized enough that I do it the night before instead of the same day in the morning 😉 .

So I can easily take preferences into account. I also know which things need to be done in sequence and which don’t. So we started on serious algebra before we ever defined a rhombus, lol. We did binary before DD8 did fractions. Why not, when you’re making your own, right? 

Making your own is about the only way to have something focused on your child's preferences at all times, and it takes a lot of subject knowledge to make it work.  I absolutely could do it in biology, but probably couldn't have done it with grammar prior to using a great program with my kids.  For math...maybe, with a student who learns easily, but I don't know that I could have gotten a struggling student through.  I probably could now, but it's because I've taught it enough to know what I"m doing.  But, especially as children get older, or for some, as families get bigger, designing every subject for every student from scratch every day becomes prohibitive for many families.  You've said elsewhere that you haven't found history that you like so you just unschool it and don't do a lot of it...and that's absolutely fine.  But, if your child feels that way about math, most families won't just skip it or unschool it.  And, there comes a point where unless you are committed to unschooling (which can be OK) then you have in mind a set of topics that you think your student needs to learn, whether they want to or not. 

I mean, I don't see any reason not to teach geometry vs algebra in whatever order you want, but if a student is just adamant that they don't want to do fractions and they are heading into middle school, I wouldn't give them a choice because refusing to learn fractions will be a problem.  I can rework the order of things, but there comes a point when students need to learn some things, whether they want to or not.  There is also a difference between students who want to pursue something different and students who don't want to do something that frustrates them or that they don't enjoy.  When my student insisted that they didn't need to learn to spell...I mean, I could make up assignments or do things in a different order, but I wasn't going to skip it.  But, ultimately there was no method that they actually liked, so I saw no reason to add extra work for me when I could get the same amount of complaining using a textbook.  But, at other times, I've happily worked on spelling using words that I chose.  For me it was about the purpose of the complaint.  If it was a real complaint, then I'd consider a change.  If it's just whining that continued...no, I would not keep trying more and more things in an attempt to keep a kid happy.  

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35 minutes ago, Clemsondana said:

Making your own is about the only way to have something focused on your child's preferences at all times, and it takes a lot of subject knowledge to make it work.  I absolutely could do it in biology, but probably couldn't have done it with grammar prior to using a great program with my kids.  For math...maybe, with a student who learns easily, but I don't know that I could have gotten a struggling student through.  I probably could now, but it's because I've taught it enough to know what I"m doing.  But, especially as children get older, or for some, as families get bigger, designing every subject for every student from scratch every day becomes prohibitive for many families.  You've said elsewhere that you haven't found history that you like so you just unschool it and don't do a lot of it...and that's absolutely fine. 

We've started doing more history that's structured, but nothing that anyone who's into history would consider serious 🙂 . But I'm pretty content with our output being "discussion" and that being the meat of our studying. I've gotten the impression that's not true for everyone. And that wouldn't be enough for me in math or in calculation-based science. (For concept exposure, I'm pretty happy with science output being discussion, too.) 

I know that's off-topic, so I'm just mentioning it for future reference! 

 

35 minutes ago, Clemsondana said:

But, if your child feels that way about math, most families won't just skip it or unschool it.  And, there comes a point where unless you are committed to unschooling (which can be OK) then you have in mind a set of topics that you think your student needs to learn, whether they want to or not. 

I mean, I don't see any reason not to teach geometry vs algebra in whatever order you want, but if a student is just adamant that they don't want to do fractions and they are heading into middle school, I wouldn't give them a choice because refusing to learn fractions will be a problem.  I can rework the order of things, but there comes a point when students need to learn some things, whether they want to or not.

Well, to be fair, I haven't given my children option not to learn certain things. I've just approached them from different directions. So it's not like DD8 had a CHOICE about learning how to add multidigit numbers. But she was really bored adding rows and rows of them, so I found something else that requires that kind of addition but didn't bore her to tears. 

 

35 minutes ago, Clemsondana said:

There is also a difference between students who want to pursue something different and students who don't want to do something that frustrates them or that they don't enjoy.  When my student insisted that they didn't need to learn to spell...I mean, I could make up assignments or do things in a different order, but I wasn't going to skip it.  But, ultimately there was no method that they actually liked, so I saw no reason to add extra work for me when I could get the same amount of complaining using a textbook.  But, at other times, I've happily worked on spelling using words that I chose.  For me it was about the purpose of the complaint.  If it was a real complaint, then I'd consider a change.  If it's just whining that continued...no, I would not keep trying more and more things in an attempt to keep a kid happy.  

Yeah, I agree that at some point, you just have to push through. It really depends whether there's any way to make things less tedious or boring or there isn't. With spelling, there really many not be a way around the tedium, so I agree with you there. 

I just don't tend to feel that way about math -- I think there are many approaches to the different subjects. Mostly because math is a very interconnected and conceptual subject, and spelling isn't -- there's a limit to how much you can understand in spelling! (I know it's not just pure memorization, but there's a lot of it there.) 

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@Not_a_NumberBut I think the reason that you see so many different ways to get at math is because you know it really well...just as I'd do with biology.  I mean, my kids could chatter about photosynthesis in preschool (not the molecules, just the concept).  A friend who teaches anatomy had kids who named their minor injuries by muscle or bone name (I think I hurt my coccyx when I landed!).  A linguist might find that many ways to teach spelling - word roots from different languages, perhaps.  When my kids did the first levels of MCT, they thought is was interesting that the Latin roots were much more directly found in some Spanish, for instance.  Beyond basics like aqua, I didn't know it but I'd guess that a polyglot would.  A historian could find lots of ways to work in history content.  An artist friend talks about layering and color and texture all the time, and I'm sure her kids did when they were little.

We see the world through the lens of what we know best and think if it as interesting and important.  We tend to see everything else as a tool or just 'stuff to learn' rather than the fascinating thing that it is for some other people.  I still tend to think of math as a tool, although the person who teaches pre-Cal at co-op sees beauty in math.  I see beautiful complexity in molecular biology, while many insist on seeing lists to memorize.  I saw grammar and writing as purely a tool for effective communication until I read the MCT books and developed some appreciation for word choice, word sound, and meter.  And, that is something that my kids never would have gotten if I had just taught grammar and writing based on the fact that I was always good at it.   So, for that reason I'm inclined to look at a program of some sort for certain subjects unless I'm truly an expert and I'd expect that some others would feel the same way, and of course we all have different subjects that we're not experts in.  It's not really about output - we do little output besides handwriting and math in elementary, although that ramps up quite a bit in middle and high. 

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8 minutes ago, Clemsondana said:

@Not_a_NumberBut I think the reason that you see so many different ways to get at math is because you know it really well...just as I'd do with biology.  I mean, my kids could chatter about photosynthesis in preschool (not the molecules, just the concept). 

For what it's worth, I'm not a biologist, but so could my kids 😛 . I don't know biology all that well, but I'm sure that as a relatively sciency family we do tend to treat science as less rote than people whose expertise lies in other areas. 

 

8 minutes ago, Clemsondana said:

A friend who teaches anatomy had kids who named their minor injuries by muscle or bone name (I think I hurt my coccyx when I landed!).  A linguist might find that many ways to teach spelling - word roots from different languages, perhaps.  When my kids did the first levels of MCT, they thought is was interesting that the Latin roots were much more directly found in some Spanish, for instance.  Beyond basics like aqua, I didn't know it but I'd guess that a polyglot would.  A historian could find lots of ways to work in history content.  An artist friend talks about layering and color and texture all the time, and I'm sure her kids did when they were little.

On the one hand, I think you're right that I see so many different ways to get at math because I know it really well. On the other hand, having been relatively expert at a few subjects, I do think that things aren't all at equal levels of depth. (For what it's worth, I think etymology is deep and exciting but is perhaps not as useful for actually teaching to SPELL as an etymologist might think. That is, I'm not sure it would make the actual goal more pleasant to achieve.) 

 

8 minutes ago, Clemsondana said:

We see the world through the lens of what we know best and think if it as interesting and important.  We tend to see everything else as a tool or just 'stuff to learn' rather than the fascinating thing that it is for some other people. 

Oh, I think lots of things are fascinating and beautiful and I just don't understand them enough 🙂 . Like, when I had babies, I got super into babywearing and wrapping, and there was surprising depth in that. (Not as much as there is in math and in pedagogy, though! But I really liked messing with it.) 

 

8 minutes ago, Clemsondana said:

I still tend to think of math as a tool, although the person who teaches pre-Cal at co-op sees beauty in math.  I see beautiful complexity in molecular biology, while many insist on seeing lists to memorize.  I saw grammar and writing as purely a tool for effective communication until I read the MCT books and developed some appreciation for word choice, word sound, and meter.  And, that is something that my kids never would have gotten if I had just taught grammar and writing based on the fact that I was always good at it.   So, for that reason I'm inclined to look at a program of some sort for certain subjects unless I'm truly an expert and I'd expect that some others would feel the same way, and of course we all have different subjects that we're not experts in.

Oh, yes, that makes sense to me. I don't blame people for wanting to have a math program at all! It's just interesting that I seem to be basically the only one on this whole thread who says they take their kids' preferences into account. I think it speaks to how narrow mathematical educations tend to be -- lots of people are afraid to stray outside the "standard" sequence. 

 

8 minutes ago, Clemsondana said:

It's not really about output - we do little output besides handwriting and math in elementary, although that ramps up quite a bit in middle and high. 

Yeah, we're the same way. I imagine it'll ramp us for us, too, though. 

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25 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

It's just interesting that I seem to be basically the only one on this whole thread who says they take their kids' preferences into account.

I think a distinction needs to be made .......  I do not take my kids' input into account when it comes to deciding WHICH curriculum to use.  I (and I think many others on this thread) certainly take my kids' preferences into account when it comes to IMPLEMENTING the curriculum.

I do not think it would be a good use of my time or energy to be daily writing lessons, from scratch and specific to one individual student.  Too many students, not enough time, other stuff to do, blah blah blah ......     Just because one has the capability to do XYZ doesn't mean it's the right choice for them to do XYZ.  So writing my own lessons and problem sets isn't the best choice for me or my family or probably the majority of homeschoolers.

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4 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

I think it speaks to how narrow mathematical educations tend to be -- lots of people are afraid to stray outside the "standard" sequence. 

I think a parent can be perfectly willing to (and committed to) straying outside the "standard" sequence, and yet not be interested in reinventing the wheel at the whim of a young child's preferences...and anti-preferences.

We cover a lot of elementary math topics that are off the beaten path, but we rarely do so in response to a child's preference. I mean, how realistic is it to wait to explore fractals or binary numbers or Pi until a child requests those topics...if they don't know the topics exist in the first place? Instead, I make sure I am scheduling a broad range of topics, a mathematical feast pulled from a plethora of resources, and the child works through them in the order I think is best (which might get changed for scheduling, pedagogical, or other reasons, but rarely preference).

OTOH, the most common type of preference my kids express is an anti-preference. They don't like long division or Roman numerals or greatest common factors. And normally, what they actually mean is that they don't like topics that are unfamiliar, require writing and organization, or are "hard". But the skills of dealing with unfamiliarity, writing, organization, and challenge are all WAY more important than long division, Roman numerals and greatest common factors. If I tweaked those topics so they were more preferred, then I would be eliminating the most important lessons they have to teach my kids. Because obviously a person can do just fine in life never mastering Roman numerals, but they won't make it far if they don't build up some tolerance for doing challenging, non-preferred things.

 

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Just now, domestic_engineer said:

I think a distinction needs to be made .......  I do not take my kids' input into account when it comes to deciding WHICH curriculum to use.  I (and I think many others on this thread) certainly take my kids' preferences into account when it comes to IMPLEMENTING the curriculum.

As in, skipping problems or giving more problems or whatnot? Yeah, I imagine people do that! Or do you mean you mess with the sequence? 

 

Just now, domestic_engineer said:

I do not think it would be a good use of my time or energy to be daily writing lessons, from scratch and specific to one individual student.  Too many students, not enough time, other stuff to do, blah blah blah ......     Just because one has the capability to do XYZ doesn't mean it's the right choice for them to do XYZ.  So writing my own lessons and problem sets isn't the best choice for me or my family or probably the majority of homeschoolers.

Probably not! I do it because I have a pretty specific vision of how a math education should go, and because I like being able to tinker with every single aspect. So we work on whatever the kids aren't understanding from as many angles as they need to understand it, and then we move on. This is very informed by what I've seen in teaching college kids, though -- I'm way too aware of the pitfalls. 

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5 minutes ago, wendyroo said:

I think a parent can be perfectly willing to (and committed to) straying outside the "standard" sequence, and yet not be interested in reinventing the wheel at the whim of a young child's preferences...and anti-preferences.

We cover a lot of elementary math topics that are off the beaten path, but we rarely do so in response to a child's preference. I mean, how realistic is it to wait to explore fractals or binary numbers or Pi until a child requests those topics...if they don't know the topics exist in the first place? Instead, I make sure I am scheduling a broad range of topics, a mathematical feast pulled from a plethora of resources, and the child works through them in the order I think is best (which might get changed for scheduling, pedagogical, or other reasons, but rarely preference).

Yeah, I didn't mean that I wait for a kid to ask for something. I just introduce ideas and brainstorm with them, and for the things that they find appealing, we move forward. I will usually introduce a variety of ideas that might allow us to work on a given concept that I want to work on. 

Although she did ask for algebra after reading Murderous Maths, lol. 

 

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OTOH, the most common type of preference my kids express is an anti-preference. They don't like long division or Roman numerals or greatest common factors. And normally, what they actually mean is that they don't like topics that are unfamiliar, require writing and organization, or are "hard". But the skills of dealing with unfamiliarity, writing, organization, and challenge are all WAY more important than long division, Roman numerals and greatest common factors. If I tweaked those topics so they were more preferred, then I would be eliminating the most important lessons they have to teach my kids. Because obviously a person can do just fine in life never mastering Roman numerals, but they won't make it far if they don't build up some tolerance for doing challenging, non-preferred things.

That's fair. And while DD8 does plenty of challenging, non-preferred things, I've definitely had issues with lack of compliance related to the fact that she's way too used to calling the shots around here 😉 . So I've probably gone too far in the direction of honoring a kid's preferences in my quest to be child-guided. 

For math, it's also been important for me to stay within the level of reasoning that's accessible to my kid without being overwhelming and without seeming in any way illogical or handed down from above. So maybe that's another reason I let her have quite a bit of say about math... I want her to construct the knowledge herself to a large extent, but I'm not exactly a discovery method person -- I want to guide her through it. 

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1 minute ago, Not_a_Number said:

As in, skipping problems or giving more problems or whatnot? Yeah, I imagine people do that! Or do you mean you mess with the sequence? 

 

Probably not! I do it because I have a pretty specific vision of how a math education should go, and because I like being able to tinker with every single aspect. So we work on whatever the kids aren't understanding from as many angles as they need to understand it, and then we move on. This is very informed by what I've seen in teaching college kids, though -- I'm way too aware of the pitfalls. 

I always enjoy hearing from you on math topics, Not a Number. Anyway, I've been thinking about the OP's question, and my answer is yes, like sweet2ndchance I take my kids' preferences into account, especially at the outset when I'm choosing what to use for the year. It's gotten easier to anticipate what may work now because, as my kids have gotten older, we've had plenty of discussions about their preferences. If my expectations and my kids' favored approaches come together in a resource then I will stick with it though, even if it's sometimes "boring" or "hard". If they're really unhappy with a curriculum, it's probably not a good fit. If I'm unhappy with the way math is taught (or not taught) in a resource, it's also not a good fit. It's a tricky balance, and I've combined resources at times if there was something they enjoyed but I thought could be stronger conceptually up or didnt provide enough practice.

 

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31 minutes ago, Hillcottagemom said:

I always enjoy hearing from you on math topics, Not a Number.

Thanks!! It's nice to hear that. I know I often swim against the tide on math, although it's not going to stop me from posting 🙂 .

 

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Anyway, I've been thinking about the OP's question, and my answer is yes, like sweet2ndchance I take my kids' preferences into account, especially at the outset when I'm choosing what to use for the year. It's gotten easier to anticipate what may work now because, as my kids have gotten older, we've had plenty of discussions about their preferences. If my expectations and my kids' favored approaches come together in a resource then I will stick with it though, even if it's sometimes "boring" or "hard". If they're really unhappy with a curriculum, it's probably not a good fit.

I think that's a key point for me -- I have a pretty good sense at this point for what DD8 is going to like. So, she's not going to want a curriculum that's constantly frustrating or challenging, and she doesn't tolerate a ton of rote repetition, and she's going to want something more focused on abstract systems and how to use them as opposed to tricky puzzles, and she's not a huge fan of complicated arithmetic (although she's good at it and will do it if she has to.)

Our most recent discussion was about whether she wanted to keep going in combinatorics or do geometry, and she chose geometry, so that's what we're doing. Although I'll say we've had some clashes of wills about HOW we're going to do geometry -- she's very new to it, and the basic stuff is boring to her, so she hasn't been thinking hard or being careful. (She's used to fairly high mastery in the other math she does.) And there, I did have to tell her that she just has to move forward and actually work hard at it and that it'll get fun eventually. 

 

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If I'm unhappy with the way math is taught (or not taught) in a resource, it's also not a good fit. It's a tricky balance, and I've combined resources at times if there was something they enjoyed but I thought could be stronger conceptually up or didnt provide enough practice.

It really is a tricky balance! 

Before I had DD8, I sort of imagined us doing lots of tricky problems for her math education 🙂 . That was what I personally liked when I was her age. As she's gotten older, she's gotten MORE interested in those kinds of problems, but she's still not the kind of kid who would want that to be the meat of her education. She just doesn't like being frustrated enough for that! (It's possible that may change. But I remember being given puzzles as a kid and REALLY wanting to figure out the solution, and she just kind of didn't care. On the other hand, she was incredibly excited to discover negative numbers and wanted to practice using them a LOT. So... yeah, abstract systems, not tricky problems. She's very mathy, but very different from how I was as a kid!) 

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3 hours ago, Not_a_Number said:

As in, skipping problems or giving more problems or whatnot? Yeah, I imagine people do that! Or do you mean you mess with the sequence? 

Yes to both questions. Although, I am personally very, very, very wary about changing the sequence of the curriculum because I believe the curriculum was designed and tested to be used a certain way. If I am going to change the sequence/design, I think long and hard about doing it because I think there’s potential to be blinded by pride and think that I know better than the creator of the curriculum.   (Of course I must also recognize that the curriculum was created to reach a certain audience and that my kid might not be part of that audience.)

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4 minutes ago, domestic_engineer said:

Although, I am personally very, very, very wary about changing the sequence of the curriculum because I believe the curriculum was designed and tested to be used a certain way.

I've been kind of disillusioned about how much "testing" curriculums get, to be honest. You're probably right that if you mix things up without being mindful of the order, you'll get something worse than what you started with. However, having looked around, curriculum designers largely seem to be lemmings. Almost everyone does things in very similar order. Furthermore, having taught lots of kids the topics in the standard approved order, I can vouch for pervasive issues that this order produces that no one seems to have tried to address. 

 

4 minutes ago, domestic_engineer said:

If I am going to change the sequence/design, I think long and hard about doing it because I think there’s potential to be blinded by pride and think that I know better than the creator of the curriculum.

Yeah, I'm not low on pride, lol. It has generally worked out well for me, though. 

Edited by Not_a_Number
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9 minutes ago, domestic_engineer said:

Yes to both questions. Although, I am personally very, very, very wary about changing the sequence of the curriculum because I believe the curriculum was designed and tested to be used a certain way. If I am going to change the sequence/design, I think long and hard about doing it because I think there’s potential to be blinded by pride and think that I know better than the creator of the curriculum.   (Of course I must also recognize that the curriculum was created to reach a certain audience and that my kid might not be part of that audience.)

I've been the opposite of wary about mixing up the order of topics, combining programs, and going down rabbit trails when it comes to math, and comments like this give me pause because I dont have any proof that my approach works in the long term. (My oldest two are in 8th grade). On the one hand, we may miss something important or end up with a piecemeal understanding, but on the other hand my kids are comfortable with being able to approach problems from multiple perspectives in a way that I wasn't at their ages. 

 

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3 hours ago, Hillcottagemom said:

I've been the opposite of wary about mixing up the order of topics, combining programs, and going down rabbit trails when it comes to math, and comments like this give me pause because I dont have any proof that my approach works in the long term. (My oldest two are in 8th grade).

I'm also the opposite of wary, and again, having looked under the hood of a very respected program... I can tell you that many things aren't actually tested. Not really. So you may wind up missing something, but you may wind up onto something brilliant because no one tries it that way. 

 

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On the one hand, we may miss something important or end up with a piecemeal understanding, but on the other hand my kids are comfortable with being able to approach problems from multiple perspectives in a way that I wasn't at their ages. 

Yes, I'm seeing the same outcome. DD8 is incredibly comfortable with trying problems from as many perspectives as she can think of. I've always encouraged that. 

I don't have long term outcomes, but I have an 8 year old who doesn't do math in her free time (other than Murderous Maths) and who is working on high school math, so I'm feeling pretty good about my program 😉 . (I have other statistics that make me feel good about my improvising, but some of them I need to save for the private math group.) 

By the way, which of you are in the private math group? I try to keep AoPS gossip to that group, and we're definitely veering into "I will soon comment on work stuff" territory. Let me know if you want to join if you aren't in it yet! 

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47 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

I'll add you! It's not very active, but sometimes there are bursts of activity 🙂 . And I move AoPS-related discussions in there. 

Please add me too!

To give a small reply to the original topic...I feel like I take quite a bit of consideration to my kids' preferences in choosing a curriculum for math and considering making a switch when needed.  My oldest is much less "into" math than her younger brothers and tends to get more anxious about it (even now, as a teen!).  So in the upper elementary years when RightStart was no longer working for us, I let her try samples of a few different programs before we settled on something new. In Pre-Algebra we tried one textbook she hated, before switching to another.  But none of the switches were due to boredom -- more due to things like format or visual presentation.   All three of my boys were super happy to do BA for as many levels as possible (3-5 for the older, 2-5 for the youngest).  Older 2 moved straight into AopS, but youngest will probably need to do something else in between due to dyslexia and just lacking the same level of maturity since he will finish a year+ sooner than his brothers did.  I will definitely take his opinions into consideration as we figure out the next step.   We've re-arranged chapters in BA several times or just skipped around a bit when something wasn't clicking - especially for the youngest since the language challenges with dyslexia sometimes trip him up and we need to let a concept rest and come back later. 

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