How fast can your 11-13 year olds write short answers?

[wendyroo]

DS 11 just finished WWS 1 (minus the final research paper), and before moving on to WWS 2, we're doing a unit on short answer questions. (In a previous thread about my writing goals for my writing-resistant kiddos, I identified "Writing well-developed 3-5 sentence "short answers" in a timely fashion with little strife.")

Well, I think DS is now writing fairly good answers, but I'm not sure it is in a timely fashion.

Here is an example of one of his short answers:
(I had just finished reading The Breadwinner aloud. DS did not reference the book at all, so that did not take any time.)

"Question: In The Breadwinner, was the author trying to paint Afghanistan in a positive or negative light or a combination of both?

I see the author as trying to show Afghanistan in a positive light. She says that Afghanistan is a beautiful place. She also wrote that Afghans are welcoming to nice people but will push out others. In all, I think that she is trying to say that without the Taliban, Afghanistan would be a great place to live."

The problem is that it took him 35 minutes to write that (type it, and his typing is pretty fast). That just seems excessive.

What is a reasonable speed to work toward? How long would it take your middle schoolers?

Thanks.
 

[Momto6inIN]

My 12 almost 13 year old would definitely take that long to think about the question, figure out what to say about it, write thoughtful complete sentences like those, and type them out. More likely, she would write: "Positive. Because it's beautiful." and be done in 2 minutes.

[Lori D.]

ETA -- oops, I misread your post and thought the focus was on handwriting vs. typing. 😉 I re-answered in another post. 😉 

It often came down to: What is the most important skill I'm trying to work on here? Thinking/discussing? Thinking of what to write? Practicing handwriting?

If the goal was about thinking/writing, then we often did the answers orally. If the questions were meant as a prompt towards brainstorming a longer piece of writing, then we'd do it together on the whiteboard.

If the goal was handwriting [or typing], then we did copywork so all the focus could be on letter formation and smooth flow.

For my DS#2 with LDs in writing, spelling, and math, and for whom handwriting was torturous, if I'd been using WWS and if I really needed him to answer the questions solo, then I'd go with typing. By about 6th/7th grade I had switched both DSs to all typing for all of the Writing. That helped free up more of DS#2's limited "brain battery energy" to use on actually thinking about what to write, rather than on how to form letters and how to write by hand. By middle school, I was definitely in the mindset of "pick your battles" -- i.e., pick what was most important to accomplish with the lesson, and streamline or adapt so we could maximize DS#2's limited focus and energy that he could expend on academics.

Edited February 9, 2021 by Lori D.

[alisha]

31 minutes ago, Momto6inIN said:

My 12 almost 13 year old would definitely take that long to think about the question, figure out what to say about it, write thoughtful complete sentences like those, and type them out. More likely, she would write: "Positive. Because it's beautiful." and be done in 2 minutes.

This is my 13 year old also, though he's the stereotypical boy who isn't good at putting all the writing elements (thinking, spelling, handwriting, etc.) together yet.

But, yes, if my 13 year old wanted to write that out, it would take him a good half hour to get it on paper, all the while asking every few seconds for me to spell something for him. But we'd probably have to scaffold that first, by writing bullet points of what he wanted to cover.

I'm rather impressed yours was able to get all that straight from her brain onto paper sounding like that!

[vonfirmath]

1 hour ago, wendyroo said:

DS 11 just finished WWS 1 (minus the final research paper), and before moving on to WWS 2, we're doing a unit on short answer questions. (In a previous thread about my writing goals for my writing-resistant kiddos, I identified "Writing well-developed 3-5 sentence "short answers" in a timely fashion with little strife.")

Well, I think DS is now writing fairly good answers, but I'm not sure it is in a timely fashion.

Here is an example of one of his short answers:
(I had just finished reading The Breadwinner aloud. DS did not reference the book at all, so that did not take any time.)

"Question: In The Breadwinner, was the author trying to paint Afghanistan in a positive or negative light or a combination of both?

I see the author as trying to show Afghanistan in a positive light. She says that Afghanistan is a beautiful place. She also wrote that Afghans are welcoming to nice people but will push out others. In all, I think that she is trying to say that without the Taliban, Afghanistan would be a great place to live."

The problem is that it took him 35 minutes to write that (type it, and his typing is pretty fast). That just seems excessive.

What is a reasonable speed to work toward? How long would it take your middle schoolers?

Thanks.
 

My son (now 13) takes a LOT of time to write. To the point we have him brainstorm on paper and turn that into what he writes. And he still often needs a second draft to get to something acceptable. He has a very hard time composing and then getting the words onto the paper.

 

(Talking is MUCH Faster. But I haven't had much success in the write down what they say then have them use that to write out a lesson way of doing it either)

 

Edited February 9, 2021 by vonfirmath

[Lori D.]

ETA -- in answer to your question... I'm not sure either of our DSs would have been ready for that type of thinking question at age 11, but esp. if they had to do it completely solo. With some discussion/prompt questions from me about that question and the book, then maybe 20-25 minutes -- and their answer would have definitely looked like what Momto6inIn described for her DD's response. 😉 

I think your DS gave an incredibly thoughtful, supported answer that is not only a complete sentence, but is closer to a mini-paragraph. 35 minutes seems very reasonable for the amount of time to process what the question is asking, think and come up with a supported answer, and then write it down.

Edited February 9, 2021 by Lori D.

[wendyroo]

So, if everyone's 6th graders are taking that much time to write a 50-word short answer, then how much writing are they doing every week?

I've always been a bit disappointed that I could never find time for DS to write anywhere near what was recommended weekly in TWTM - 3-4 science notebook entries, one outline and one summary in history, narrative summaries and written answers to discussion questions in literature, biographical pages about artists and musicians...yikes!!

Then I look at different homeschool methods. Just for science, Bookshark has 6th graders answering 2-4 short answer questions a day (based on the sample I saw). Mystery Science worksheets for upper elementary normally include a least a couple short answer questions. And if you look at their assessments, those designed for 9-12 year olds often include 2-3 short answer discussion questions.

Then I look at public school: Many sample 6th grade science and social studies worksheets and tests I found have 2-4 short answer questions. Our state standardized test has kids down to 3rd grade writing timed literature response essays. Third graders have to read a two page story and respond to "Write an essay explaining how the rhinoceros changes because of the actions of the bird. Use evidence from the passage to support your response." They only have an hour, and even the poorly graded sample essays are ~100 words; the better essays as 150-200 words...in third grade...in an hour total! By 6th grade, the story is three pages, the essays are 400-800 words, and the time limit is still one hour.

I'm proud of how far DS's writing has come, but it just seems so out of synch with what most systems seem to expect of 6th graders.

[Shoes+Ships+SealingWax]

The structure of his response (topic, example, example, conclusion) is excellent & it is well-stated. I’ll admit I’m surprised by the amount of time you say it took, but I don’t yet have a child that age with whom to compare.

Was he actively working for the full 35min?

What process did he follow? Did he begin with any notes?

Does he have experience answering questions like this verbally? 

Now that he has the structure down, I’d expect that with some practice he’ll be able to formulate his responses more quickly. I would work towards a goal of 10-15min per response. By high school, probably half that. 

In general I find the writing expectations of homeschooled children are much lower than their publicly/privately-schooled peers in terms of speed and length, in part because many homeschoolers delay routine handwriting for one reason or another & in part because we don’t typically have the same degree of standardized testing hoops to jump through. 

ETA: In poking around online, it seems a general rule of thumb is to answer the question yourself, then multiply the time it took by 3 (rounding up, if applicable) to determine an appropriate timeframe. By high school, the assumption appears to be ~5min. 

Edited February 10, 2021 by Shoes+Ships+SealingWax

[Lori D.]

3 hours ago, wendyroo said:

... So, if everyone's 6th graders are taking that much time to write a 50-word short answer, then how much writing are they doing every week?
... Then I look at public school...
... I've always been a bit disappointed that I could never find time for DS to write anywhere near what was recommended weekly in TWTM...
... I'm proud of how far DS's writing has come, but it just seems so out of synch with what most systems seem to expect of 6th graders.

re: WTM weekly writing recommendations
SWB has more than once stated that the times were included in the WTM *only* because the publisher insisted. And again, she has repeatedly stressed that families should *adapt* WTM suggestions to fit their own unique students and family goals.

re: public school writing expectations
Also, from what I see, many public school writing expectations (of both volume of writing and level of thinking) are inappropriate, especially in the elementary grades.

I certainly think that having any kind of *timed* writing for testing is inappropriate until at least LATE middle school, and more like high school. (And timed writing for testing is a complete waste of time for MANY students, regardless of grade, because thinking/writing quickly under pressure of time is NOT something a lot of students can successfully do.) 

I also think that writing a supported essay requires a level of thinking that does not develop in many students until middle school. It certainly requires scaffolding if a teacher decides to teach it earlier than that. Again, that is all JMO based on what I typically see in my co-op classes with 7th-12th grade students.

re: how much writing are your 6th graders doing a week?
I will preface: we had an average writer DS (who disliked writing), and a struggling writer DS with LDs (who also disliked writing). As a result, I streamlined and kept writing to smaller bites, and did a lot orally that other people would have had their students do as writing.

In 6th grade, I would say that DSs spent about a total of about 30-40 min./day 4 days/week on writing -- 5th day was out of the house activities. So about 2 to 2.5 hours a week.  They did not do all of that daily 30-40 minutes in one sitting. It was usually broken up into several "bites" during the day, like a morning 5 min. warm-up; then later in the morning, about 25 min. on the writing program or a specific writing assignment for other subject; and then after lunch, as needed 10 min. short session to finish up. We would set aside the writing program for a week or two while we were working on specific writing projects for other subjects.

re: DS's writing "seeming out of synch" with other 6th graders
Comparison is the thief of joy. 😉 And pretty useless too, esp. when you have students who are very much marching to their own drum across the board. 😉 

I do think it's SUPER that you have an advanced 11yo when it comes to being able to be chugging along through WWS1 at this age. In case it helps: I know that program is "rated" for grades 5-8 -- but realistically, MANY more people on these boards tend to find that WWS1 works much better when they wait until their student hits 7th or 8th (or sometimes even 9th) grade, to allow their students to develop the abstract thinking and analysis thinking portions of the brain needed to write these kinds of essays and short answers to thinking/analysis types of questions. So doing it at a younger age than most people, there's nothing wrong about needing more time to do it, or deciding to spread out the program over a longer period of time to reduce the daily "bite" of writing a day.

Edited February 10, 2021 by Lori D.

[wendyroo]

7 minutes ago, Shoes+Ships+SealingWax said:

Was he actively working for the full 35min?

What process did he follow? Did he begin with any notes?

His "process" is spinning in a desk chair "thinking" and hoping that an answer will leap fully formed from his head onto the paper. Much to my chagrin, this is also his "process" for math and all other subjects.

To be fair, so far his brute intelligence and pattern matching have gotten him by using this method. I have taught him umpteen other outlining/brainstorming/note taking/organizing strategies, but so far he is loathe to use any of them. And I have a hard time making a strong, logical case for using them to an 11 year old who has finished WWS 1, is soon starting Algebra 2, and gets ~95% of SAT questions correct. Clearly he has a system...even if it is torturously inefficient from my perspective.

7 minutes ago, Shoes+Ships+SealingWax said:

Does he have experience answering questions like this verbally? 

He is autistic and struggles with spontaneous narrative language. For example, he went through the first 3 levels of Writing with Ease, and throughout, he struggled with even 1-2 sentence summaries. By level 3 he could somewhat cope with the narrations that asked for sentences sequentially: “Try to tell me, in one sentence, what Scheherazade thought of her journey to Boston.” and then “Now give me two more sentences with specific details in them about how the journey was horrible.” But he was completely lost on less structured narrations like “Can you give me a brief summary of this
passage?”

He HATES writing, but, for him, it is actually a stronger form of clear communication than speaking.

7 minutes ago, Shoes+Ships+SealingWax said:

Now that he has the structure down, I’d expect that with some practice he’ll be able to formulate his responses more quickly. I would work towards a goal of 10-15min per response. By high school, probably half that. 

In general I find the writing expectations of homeschooled children are much lower than their publicly/privately-schooled peers in terms of speed and length, in part because many homeschoolers delay routine handwriting for one reason or another & in part because we don’t typically have the same degree of standardized testing hoops to jump through. 

I do think we will make speeding up the process a little bit one of our goals. He does not struggle with knowing or pattern matching the desired short answer "formula". He also does not struggle with grammar or spelling; the only help he asked for when writing the answer above was what to call people from Afghanistan, and all I did was urge him to utilize his tools and ask Google 😄.

I don't anticipate him going to public school any time soon, but I do want to keep our options open by ensuring he is developing the skills he would need. 

[Momto6inIN]

12 hours ago, wendyroo said:

So, if everyone's 6th graders are taking that much time to write a 50-word short answer, then how much writing are they doing every week?

I've always been a bit disappointed that I could never find time for DS to write anywhere near what was recommended weekly in TWTM - 3-4 science notebook entries, one outline and one summary in history, narrative summaries and written answers to discussion questions in literature, biographical pages about artists and musicians...yikes!!

Then I look at different homeschool methods. Just for science, Bookshark has 6th graders answering 2-4 short answer questions a day (based on the sample I saw). Mystery Science worksheets for upper elementary normally include a least a couple short answer questions. And if you look at their assessments, those designed for 9-12 year olds often include 2-3 short answer discussion questions.

Then I look at public school: Many sample 6th grade science and social studies worksheets and tests I found have 2-4 short answer questions. Our state standardized test has kids down to 3rd grade writing timed literature response essays. Third graders have to read a two page story and respond to "Write an essay explaining how the rhinoceros changes because of the actions of the bird. Use evidence from the passage to support your response." They only have an hour, and even the poorly graded sample essays are ~100 words; the better essays as 150-200 words...in third grade...in an hour total! By 6th grade, the story is three pages, the essays are 400-800 words, and the time limit is still one hour.

I'm proud of how far DS's writing has come, but it just seems so out of synch with what most systems seem to expect of 6th graders.

Everything @Lori D. said 🙂

My kids would wilt with WTM's expectations for written output.

My current 7th grader writes short answers for science and history, but for us "short answer" means a phrase or two, or maybe if I'm feeling picky, a full sentence. I'm pretty sure this is what is usually expected for "short answer" questions. (Perhaps that's not true for hs curricula, but it definitely is for ps, ime.) I just do not generally use subject material to practice writing skills. I want to know they understand what they've read, and that's it. I save the real "writing" for direct writing instruction. I see value in writing across the curriculum, and I do at times assign a writing project for a particular subject like history or science, but then I shelve the writing program until that assignment is done and I work through the assignment with them. We spend about 30-45 min per day on writing. Usually I expect a paragraph or two per day, whether that's organizing it into an outline or actually composing the words, but usually not both on the same day. About 6 or so times per year I have her write a response to one of her reading list books and it takes her about an hour to write 3-4 paragraphs without input or direction from me. I have her do it on her own because I want to see what she can come up with un-scaffolded so that I can know where our writing lessons time should be pinpointed.

I also am quite sure that ps plays fast and loose with the definition of "essay" and that their expectations about student writing are so wildly inappropriate that I wouldn't even consider their expectations in my writing decisions. They may provide examples of writing that meet their criteria in specific grades, but the percentage of kids in ps who can actually meet those standards is abysmal. As it should be, since the standards themselves are so inappropriate.

[kbutton]

18 hours ago, wendyroo said:

I don't anticipate him going to public school any time soon, but I do want to keep our options open by ensuring he is developing the skills he would need. 

I applaud this, but I think he'd have IEP supports, including 1.5 time or double time to get things on paper. How that actually works out will likely be more painful than anyone would prefer, but he would have protections. 

If you think there is any possibility of his going to school at some point, I would document the amount of work/intervention you do with him to make him functional because you will need that documentation. 

[Lecka]

I can compare two of my kids in public school.  The plain fact is they do not do anywhere near the same amount of writing.  How much one wrote in 6th grade is night and day from the other.  

It is just not uniform.

You could see one’s work and think they aren’t doing much.

You could see the other one’s work and think they do a lot. 

If you just saw the first one’s work, you wouldn’t even know other kids might be doing additional open-ended writing responses on a piece of paper, after they finished the piece of paper passed out to the whole class.  
 

And if you just saw the second one’s work, you would think the whole class did all of it.