Writing programs for dyslexia

[6Acorns]

I am looking at writing programs to use with dyslexic kiddos who use Barton. I know Susan Barton suggests IEW after Level 4. What are your thoughts on IEW as compared to Mindwing or The Writing Revolution? Any others that I should look at? 

Thanks

Marcy in NC

[PeterPan]

Well Writing Revolution is not an expensive book, so that's worth getting no matter what. The Mindwing/Story Grammar Marker materials are ideal if your dc has narrative language problems. https://mindwingconcepts.com/pages/methodology  Here is a page with their methodology and basic charts. They have EXTENSIVE videos on their youtube page, and I strongly encourage you to spend several hours watching them. At that point you'll know whether you need the tools MW/SGM brings. 

IEW would be for a dc whose narrative language is intact, who has EF issues, who with some prompts and structure is able to get their thoughts out. IEW has a youtube channel with 1-3 hour videos of Pudewa presenting and walking through the methodology. I just watched one of his webinars live that was recorded. You don't have to wonder if it will work for your kids, kwim? You can watch him, see how it works, see if it will be enough.

If you want narrative language testing, you would consult with an SLP (sometimes a psych, but more typically an SLP). Look for one who specializes in literacy. If you have tried IEW and it isn't going well and narrative language issues seem to be the key, then yes going to SGM/MW will step it up. They have several hour long webinars on their youtube/FB, so jump in and start watching. You'll know at that point. Buying is about getting the printables. They're already giving you the meat upfront.

Edited February 5, 2021 by PeterPan

[PeterPan]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hRCdmom9Gn4  Start here. This whole thing is worth watching. I adore Pudewa and always learn a lot by watching him. Just his *attitude* is worth seeing. This is a 6 hour session he did, and he walks kids through the methodology. You can see if it would be enough for your kids. It would not for my ds, but it can be enough instruction for some kids. What it's not doing is teaching the narrative language components (story grammar, the language components, etc.) explicitly to kids who aren't getting it. It's assuming the kids have language skills intact and that they can generate the components with a prompt (adding describing words, understanding the components of a story, etc.). And that's just going to depend on your students and the extent of the language disability.

 

[PeterPan]

 

[PeterPan]

 

[Lecka]

https://www.christianbook.com/writing-skills-teachers-handbook/diana-king/9780838825617/pd/8825613?event=CFCER1

Diane Hanbury King worked at a dyslexia school and has a writing program.  It's something to look at.  You might be able to search the board about other people using it in the past.  I have an impression some people use it as a beginner program and then move on to other programs.  Not sure, though.  

[Lecka]

I didn't know that Susan Barton recommended IEW.  That would carry a lot of weight for me.  

I have got the Writing Revolution book on my Kindle.  It is a good book, but for me it just does not translate into a writing curriculum.  There may be more to that than I am aware of.  The book is not expensive (iirc) so it might be easy to check it out.  

I have the MIndwings Autism series and I'm extremely happy with it.  

[PeterPan]

Those videos I linked are EXCELLENT btw. I've watched all three of them. (Well I missed some of the Pudewa, but it's worth going back to catch what I missed!) They were GREAT sessions, well worth your time. And MW will have tons like this on their blog. I can't think of anyone going into more detail on the connection between narrative language, expository writing, and reading comprehension. They have more advanced texts on discourse, etc. and they have videos on them!! So you don't even need to buy those later things till you watch the videos, wrap your brain around it, and go ok I know why I need this. 

Reality is SLPs in the ps are not given a lot of time with the students nor are they necessarily funded enough to get everything they feel they need. So there are approaches out there that seem "faster" maybe, but what you're really saying is I have 15 minutes a week in the IEP (for real, that's what my ds' IEP says for some things), what can I get done for little cost in that amount of time that sorta looks like I hit the goals. Kwim? That's really NOT THE SAME as asking what we will do as homeschool parents when we have the time and resources to dig in. 

So you start with data. What isn't working and why? What is the extent of the language disability and what factors are contributing? There are MORE FACTORS than just narrative language. The motor integration, working memory, EF, etc. are important! 

https://institute.aimpa.org/resources/pathways-to-practice/pathways-to-practice-resources/virtual-teaching-techniques/  This is another tab I had open. They talk about the strands of reading and the strands of writing. This link is on the strands of reading, but you can google the strands of writing and see what I'm talking about.

https://www.michiganspeechhearing.org/docs/Narrative%203HR%20Handout%20Michigan.pdf  Here's a pdf of slides by a talk by Ukrainetz (big BIG name in narrative language). Could be a good overview for you. 

So, this is NOT a narrative language test, but just as a hack, mom2mom level I'm going to say that my ds' narrative language issues are very evident. If you ask him about his day, you get very little. If you ask him to retell you a Bible story you just read him, hang it up. Now we work on it with our materials and are making progress, but I want you to see the contrast between that and a kid who you ask to retell the story you just told them and they go ON AND ON with this sort of disorganized, on and on thing. That's EF. Now that will respond to SGM instruction, definitely! In fact, it will respond really well! But I think for that you could watch one of their free webinars, go OH I GET IT, and start applying it immediately to your kid and see results. You might not need tools and printables and instruction in how to describe things or feelings or this or that. The pieces are there but the EF is missing.

Sometimes what is missing will be apparent to you as you study the developmental stages chart. They go through it in the MW/SGM videos. So start at the beginning and work up. Can your dc do a narrative at each stage? Where do they bottom out? That stage will then have developmental language and social thinking skills that were necessary to get them to the NEXT stage. 

That way you don't think you have a problem you don't have, kwim? If you want the super hack way to figure it out, that's what you would do. Wrap your brain around the narrative language stages (from SGM/MW, from the videos), see where they are. If the narrative language is intact, go straight to IEW and be in peace.

 

[PeterPan]

10 minutes ago, Lecka said:

https://www.christianbook.com/writing-skills-teachers-handbook/diana-king/9780838825617/pd/8825613?event=CFCER1

Diane Hanbury King worked at a dyslexia school and has a writing program.  It's something to look at.  You might be able to search the board about other people using it in the past.  I have an impression some people use it as a beginner program and then move on to other programs.  Not sure, though.  

A very popular dyslexia tutor in our town uses this series. I've looked through it, it's fine. It's addressing those EF issues, but it's really basic and old. I think you're going to do a lot better walking up to the wall on the SGM stuff and seeing what you need and what the real issues are. The understanding of language issues keeps growing. Moreau was an SLP in a dyslexia school developing her stuff, so you're seeing there methodologies for the kids who weren't getting enough with a more EF, graphic organizer kind of approach but actually needed language intervention. But hey, if the kid doesn't have narrative language issues, that's awesome! 

[Lecka]

I just started to watch the linked videos.  I don't have time today -- but they look excellent!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  

I think I can listen to them while I do chores over the next couple of weeks.  

I really love the woman from Mindwings.  

OP -- I don't know if your child has any issues with comprehension or not.  A lot of kids with dyslexia do not have comprehension issues, while some do.  If there are any comprehension issues I would prioritize Mindwings.  

If there are not -- I think I would very heavily weight Susan Barton's recommendation.  

   

[kirstenhill]

In the Orton-Gillingham facebook groups I'm in, Writing Revolution gets a lot of positive recommendations.  The groups weigh heavily toward classroom teachers and school interventionists though.   Having read it and investigated their website a bit, I think there's more content in the seminars they offer on how to apply it, and also a "subscribers" site you can pay for that I assume has a greater number of pre-prepared worksheets and lesson plans that correlate.  There's also lessons and worksheets on TpT that coordinate.  I've been dabbling in it a little bit for my DS9, and there are a lot of things I like about it, but it is definitely a method to implement rather than a full fledged curriculum like most homeschoolers would be looking for.  The audience is classroom teachers who are going to be making their own lesson plans (or maybe buying them from TpT).

ETA: Here's a link to resources for TWR.  I have used the free book resources to create a template, but I just now clicked the "School resource library" that I had the impression was a paid subscription and it let me into the page with many templates to download, etc.  So maybe it isn't actually a subscription site? Or maybe it is just free temporarily? Not sure, but might be worth checking out

Edited February 5, 2021 by kirstenhill
added link

[Lecka]

6 hours ago, PeterPan said:

Moreau was an SLP in a dyslexia school developing her stuff, so you're seeing there methodologies for the kids who weren't getting enough with a more EF, graphic organizer kind of approach but actually needed language intervention.

This is about Mindwings..... the founder worked at a school for dyslexia AND LLD Language Learning Disorder.  I think that 30 years ago a lot of kids with LLD might be diagnosed with autism now.  Or, with a language delay.  

I think the school was more of a special needs school than a "just dyslexia" school.  

It's just my impression.  

 

 

 

[6Acorns]

17 hours ago, Lecka said:

LLD Language Learning Disorder.  I think that 30 years ago a lot of kids with LLD might be diagnosed with autism now.  Or, with a language delay. 

yes, this is very interesting. My sister is the lead scientist at Boys Town working on Developmental Language Delay. One of the issues they are dealing with is the tendency of over diagnosis of high functioning autism when DLD is the real underlying issue. Severe DLD looks a lot like high functioning autism and local providers are more familiar with autism, so they jump to that dx without addressing language issues. Here is a link to the launch page for DLD at Boys Town https://www.boystownhospital.org/research/speech-language/word-learning

[PeterPan]

"significant effect on verbal" is part of the LEGAL DEFINITION of ASD in our state and federally. I was required to show language scores demonstrating it and all early intervention for ASD is centered around language.

What you're really seeing is turf wars, and I see it in the the private SLP groups where I lurk. The SLPs want to do the service the BCBAs (and underling RBTs) are doing, but SLPs bill at 2-3X more. The SLPs I tried were not trained on any of the developmental language approaches like VBA and in fact poo poo it. 

An SLP should not undiagnose, early psych impressions can/will be wrong, and diagnoses are sometimes used to get FUNDING for intervention.

But if it's about SLPs preaching to SLPs they ought to bone up, sure. But around here, I couldn't get an SLP to do what needed to be done. 

Edited February 6, 2021 by PeterPan