TV—toxicity—turned on me—now what?

[prairiewindmomma]

I need advice on how to handle relationships with extended family (a few households, same geographic area). Over the last few years, they have been watching a lot of tv. I have seen a huge shift in their thinking in the last few years. They are angry and outraged about everything. They are xenophobic...where they were quietly racist before they are now openly so and proud of it. They lack empathy. They have rigid opinions. They pick and goad. Quite frankly, it is unpleasant to listen to them rant.

I have, for the most part, just letting them do them, in the hopes that some measure of relationship could remain...in hoping this was perhaps dementia...in hoping the election cycle would improve matters.

Today, in a conversation with one of them, one was mentioning certain news items and I asked a clarifying question about what she meant by a statement (I am glad your kids are not in school right now if they are anything like New York schools.) I thought she was referring to a covid outbreak. Instead, she mentioned a political position. And then she attacked me and how awful I am for not having her same views. It felt as if she thought she was being attacked for her narrowmindedness and named me the aggressor while she was attacking me. (Victim complex? Fragility?) She likewise expressed sympathy for those who broke into the capitol. I said I had to  go empty the dishwasher before lunch and quickly ended the call before it spiraled further.

My daughter heard it all and backed away in horror. She doesn’t want to talk to her again.

Are any of you experiencing this? It’s almost like a radicalization...Any advice? I am still just sitting in shock over this hours later. 

[MEmama]

It *is* radicalisation.

My in-laws have decided to go down that path. We’ve been watching it happen for years; at this point there’s nothing but tatters remaining of any relationship. After the things FIL has said to me I never want to see him again. 

It’s especially sad to me that their delusions prevent them from understanding the damage they choose to inflict on their grandkids. 

[Ausmumof3]

https://www.abc.net.au/news/science/2020-08-24/how-the-qanon-conspiracy-theory-is-affecting-australian-families/12564566
 

This article here had a lot on the impact of the conspiracy theories etc on family and friendships.  It doesn’t have a lot of solutions but it may be helpful to know you’re not totally alone.

[Happy2BaMom]

It is a radicalization / extremism, with adherents also demonstrating characteristics of cult thinking. 
 

I recently saw a headline news article on this topic, something along the lines of “what to do if someone you know is .....” but I don’t remember what specific terms they used after that. It might have been conspiracy theories, but still on topic. You might try googling to see what you can find, because many other people are having this issue. 

ETA: there’s a lot of narcissistic behavior that accompanies the above behaviors (delusions, rage, lack of empathy or ability to respect the other person’s boundaries, etc), so perhaps learning more about handling NPD might help?

Edited February 4, 2021 by Happy2BaMom

[scholastica]

If you can stand to stay in their lives, it may be the thing that pulls them out of it. If they have no contact with anyone who will push back, even gently, then they will be surrounded with “like-minded” individuals who only reinforce it. 
 

[katilac]

11 minutes ago, prairiewindmomma said:

Are any of you experiencing this? It’s almost like a radicalization...Any advice? I am still just sitting in shock over this hours later. 

Yes. No great advice. We don't see even the local ones in person (we're seeing very few people, and racist ass hats definitely do not make the cut). While it's not anyone I spend a great deal of time with these days, it was kind of heartbreaking to realize it had reached the point where I could never be anything more than civil to more than a few people that I basically grew up with. If they make it to extended family get-togethers once they are possible, I will greet them politely and not much more. These are not 90-yr-old grandparents, but middle-aged people who imo choose to be ugly. People with a lot of privilege who are infuriated that the world is changing, and who are choosing to meet that change with hate. 

For people who haven't yet proven themselves solidly on the side of hate, I will react with open surprise and see how they react in turn: "What?? Auntie Sue, I can't believe you said that! Do you really believe that XYZ?" Some people are repeating things somewhat mindlessly and will back down from an extreme position - not ideal, but better than those who double down, and there's a chance they'll think about that negative reaction later. 

If it's not a grandparent, I wouldn't hesitate to let my dd never talk to them again. If it is a grandparent, I'd encourage her to see them but also give her free reign to respond and say how wrong and hateful she thinks XYZ position is. And to leave if they want to keep saying racist things or using racist words, and to name why they're leaving, "That's ugly and racist and I'm not going to listen to it." Basically leave it up to her if she wants to respond or simply leave, but definitely don't make her sit there and listen to it. People are free to say almost anything they want, but they are not free from the consequences of saying it. 

 

[Pawz4me]

Yes. With an older family member (very close relative that we can't avoid interacting with). It is radicalization to the point of cult behavior. DH and I have talked about it extensively, and the next time she starts our plan is to say something along the lines of "You know we don't agree with any of what you're saying. It's hateful and extremely un-Christian (note: she claims to be a devout Christian). We're sorry you've been sucked into this cult, but it's above our pay grade to help you. We will not discuss these things with you anymore. You need to stop bringing up these topics."

I've read all the articles and know that's not the "right" way one is supposed to go about helping someone deprogram from a cult. But we don't have the mental space for handling it any other way. That's our line in the sand, and we've drawn it for our own mental health protection.

[katilac]

11 minutes ago, scholastica said:

If you can stand to stay in their lives, it may be the thing that pulls them out of it. If they have no contact with anyone who will push back, even gently, then they will be surrounded with “like-minded” individuals who only reinforce it. 
 

I do agree with this to some extent, but I think you're only torturing yourself if the person is both hardcore and determined to rant about it in order to be obnoxious to you (because they're not listening to you or observing you). There is definitely something to be said for being a voice of reason, but there is also something to be said for them realizing that decent people want nothing to do with them. 

[almondbutterandjelly]

This is not new to me.  And it's from the other side of the political spectrum.  My mother is a narcissist and if you disagree with her politically (or really on anything at all), she will attack.  If she got riled up watching politics, she will take it out on you.  Her favorite mood is outraged.

Our boundary that I drew several years ago was that we will not discuss politics.  She sometimes pushes it, but I stand firm mostly.  Do not engage.  Change the subject.  However, be willing to enforce the boundary.  Leave or end the discussion.  

If you want to maintain the relationship.

And my dad has always been a bit racist.  My dd says that most of her friends say their grandparents are all a little racist.  We think/hope/pray this will die out with that generation.  (I mean, we know it won't completely, but dd and her friends are not racist, so at least in our little families, it's dying out.)

If you want to maintain the relationship.  Boundaries can be drawn and enforced.  That part is particularly painful in its own way because there will be pushback, but ultimately, the grandparents did want a relationship with us and so behave, mostly.  YMMV

[Forget-Me-Not]

Yes.  I had a rather shocking conversation with a close family member shortly after the election.  I couldn't believe the vitriol that was spewed.  This family member and the person they live with spend a great deal of time with a certain news network playing near constantly in the background.  And of course all other news networks are "biased" 🙄

The last straw was when Kamala Harris was called a s**t in my home.  Uh, no.  Nope nope nope.  I don't care what your political views are, it's 100%  not okay to use sexist language here. The behavior she is alleged (by family member) to have engaged in is certainly no worse (and in a lot of cases much less worse) than what many male politicians have done.  But which one gets called a name?  I called out that double standard fast and family member backed right down.  

My husband and kids know that we have a hard and fast rule that we don't discuss politics when these family members are visiting.  It was in place before these conversations happened, but I have doubled down hard on it and reminded them before each visit.  If the topic arises, I change it as soon as I possibly can.  

Edited February 4, 2021 by Forget-Me-Not

[PeterPan]

1 hour ago, prairiewindmomma said:

I need advice on how to handle relationships with extended family (a few households, same geographic area). Over the last few years, they have been watching a lot of tv.

Ok, I'm gonna say this, but could ya'll kindly hold back a bit on the you're horrible dagger knives thing?

It has almost ALWAYS been good advice not to talk politics (or anything related to politics) with one's family. If they thought they were of the same point of view as  you and brought it up, well now it's apparent they're not. So maybe just handle it that way?

But then, the other thing is I think it's so odd, this whole idea that we need to restrict freedom of speech and the flow of ideas, the idea that CENSORSHIP is ok. And you probably don't actually think that, but it's sorta what you said. If they didn't have those viewpoints, they wouldn't resonate with them. You would watch those shows (if you were so inclined) and filter. Nuts, those people have probably been saying (or at least thinking) what you're saying, with tropes like CNN=Communist News Network, etc. But they don't call for taking down CNN. They just figure people have to sort things out for themselves and use some common sense.

At some point, there has to be space to DISAGREE and not say we all have to be homogenous within our families or countries or censor to get there. I don't think this rush to censor, call everything we disagree with a "conspiracy" and "disinformation" is helpful. It's certainly not part of free speech in a free country.

So I guess do what most presidents say to do after they are inaugurated and look for what unites you and focus on that. 

[Guest]

Yes, I have had this issue, with both extended family members and someone very close. We went toe to toe over the insurrection attempt. I said, “ I am never on the side of violence!” The person did apologize about that the next day. We have not discussed political topics since. 

One thing that made, I think, a bit of a breakthrough with my person is that I asked, “Do you want to go through life angry all the time?” I said, not for the first time and not for the last, “The *point* of this TV show is to keep you agitated all the time.” I have even pointed out very recently that even a seemingly innocuous show, My 600lb. Life, is just meant for absolutely no purpose except to feed feelings of superiority...”Oh my God! Look at what she’s eating! How can anyone get to that point!” etc. Those shows are, of course, not political, but they serve the same anti-humanitarian purpose. 

Another thing that is similar to the “angry” question is to ask, “Is there anything *YOU* can do about it? No? Then why waste your emotional energy being upset about it?” 

[prairiewindmomma]

15 minutes ago, PeterPan said:

Ok, I'm gonna say this, but could ya'll kindly hold back a bit on the you're horrible dagger knives thing?

It has almost ALWAYS been good advice not to talk politics (or anything related to politics) with one's family. If they thought they were of the same point of view as  you and brought it up, well now it's apparent they're not. So maybe just handle it that way?

But then, the other thing is I think it's so odd, this whole idea that we need to restrict freedom of speech and the flow of ideas, the idea that CENSORSHIP is ok. And you probably don't actually think that, but it's sorta what you said. If they didn't have those viewpoints, they wouldn't resonate with them. You would watch those shows (if you were so inclined) and filter. Nuts, those people have probably been saying (or at least thinking) what you're saying, with tropes like CNN=Communist News Network, etc. But they don't call for taking down CNN. They just figure people have to sort things out for themselves and use some common sense.

At some point, there has to be space to DISAGREE and not say we all have to be homogenous within our families or countries or censor to get there. I don't think this rush to censor, call everything we disagree with a "conspiracy" and "disinformation" is helpful. It's certainly not part of free speech in a free country.

So I guess do what most presidents say to do after they are inaugurated and look for what unites you and focus on that. 

I think the underlying concerns aren’t so much political.... it’s the anger, the personal attacks, and the redirecting of conversation to her political narrative. It’s the behaviors that are getting in the way of the relationships. It’s like a really bad persevative hyperfocus if I were to reframe it in ASD terms. I could live with that if it was only an intellectual preoccupation. It’s the side of NPD with the anger and attacks that is making this difficult.

I would be delighted if we could never mention politics again. Re-steering the convo to weather, the Hallmark channel shows, and other matters is no longer working. Plus, I had been shielding my kids from that and now they are aware. Hence why I am asking for help...

[katilac]

19 minutes ago, PeterPan said:

Ok, I'm gonna say this, but could ya'll kindly hold back a bit on the you're horrible dagger knives thing?

It has almost ALWAYS been good advice not to talk politics (or anything related to politics) with one's family. If they thought they were of the same point of view as  you and brought it up, well now it's apparent they're not. So maybe just handle it that way?

But then, the other thing is I think it's so odd, this whole idea that we need to restrict freedom of speech and the flow of ideas, the idea that CENSORSHIP is ok. And you probably don't actually think that, but it's sorta what you said. If they didn't have those viewpoints, they wouldn't resonate with them. You would watch those shows (if you were so inclined) and filter. Nuts, those people have probably been saying (or at least thinking) what you're saying, with tropes like CNN=Communist News Network, etc. But they don't call for taking down CNN. They just figure people have to sort things out for themselves and use some common sense.

At some point, there has to be space to DISAGREE and not say we all have to be homogenous within our families or countries or censor to get there. I don't think this rush to censor, call everything we disagree with a "conspiracy" and "disinformation" is helpful. It's certainly not part of free speech in a free country.

So I guess do what most presidents say to do after they are inaugurated and look for what unites you and focus on that. 

It is absolutely not 'sorta' what she said. She said absolutely no such thing and didn't come within miles of it. Where in her post are you getting that from? Where does she call for taking down any network? And how do you know 'they' aren't calling for taking down CNN? In the past months, plenty of people have called not just for taking down certain parts of the news media, but for lining them up to be shot, so why make that assumption? 

Not listening to racist garbage flowing from someone's mouth is not restricting the freedom of speech or the flow of ideas. People have the right to say it, I have the right to turn away in repugnance. 

[Lecka]

My husband and MIL have had a few civil phone conversations just in the past two weeks.

Neither are bringing up politics.

I think they both plan other topics to talk about.  
 

They didn’t speak for a while and now they both want to get along.

My husband will hang up if she says anything on certain topics, though.

They didn’t speak for a month or two after a blow-up.

I hope it will last.

 

[MercyA]

2 hours ago, prairiewindmomma said:

Are any of you experiencing this? It’s almost like a radicalization...Any advice? 

Yes. My only advice is try not to engage in any political conversation, because there is no changing their minds. Gentle, calm statements of fact are fine to a point, but I wouldn't try to respond more than once or twice before just changing the subject. "Oh, let's talk about something more pleasant." "Well, I can't agree with you there, but how about this snow we're having?" And, if they won't let up, "Sorry, have to go, have a nice evening!" 

In my family's case, I totally blame the nonsense they have blaring in the background of their home every waking hour. It's like an addiction to being outraged. 

Thankfully it's not my own parents, who were *extreme* conspiracy theorists years ago (although kind ones!) and have done a complete 180. Thank you, Jesus. People *can* change, but they have to have some open-mindedness. My dad always said, "I don't care what the truth is, I just want to know it." We've tried to teach our daughter that as well. There is never anything to fear from information.

My poor mom is going through this with her sister, who hangs up the phone if my mom tries to get a gentle word in edgewise. 😞 

Edited February 4, 2021 by MercyA

[katilac]

2 hours ago, prairiewindmomma said:

 where they were quietly racist before they are now openly so and proud of it.  

 

52 minutes ago, PeterPan said:

Nuts, those people have probably been saying (or at least thinking) what you're saying, with tropes like CNN=Communist News Network, etc. But they don't call for taking down CNN. They just figure people have to sort things out for themselves and use some common sense.

 So I guess do what most presidents say to do after they are inaugurated and look for what unites you and focus on that.

To the first part of your post above: I find it really weird that you are making these giant assumptions about these people that you have never met, who are described as open racists who deliberately pick and goad. You say that a frequent poster, whom we have all often observed disagreeing with others in a reasonable manner,  is calling for censorism when nothing in her post implies that, but you somehow know that these people "don't call for taking down CNN" and do "figure people have to sort things out for themselves." I mean, where are you getting that from? Not from her post - nothing in her post paints that picture. 

To the second part: I for one am not looking to unite with people who are proudly racist. "Oh, you think whites are the superior race and also that Firefly is one of the best shows ever? Let's focus on the Firefly bit, I guess."

Edited February 4, 2021 by katilac

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, MercyA said:

my case, I totally blame the nonsense they have blaring in the background of their home every waking hour. It's like an addiction to being outraged.

It absolutely is an addiction to being outraged. 

I have been thinking recently about the old saying, “An idle mind is the Devil’s playground.” I think there is a lot of truth in that and currently, what a lot of people do with their “idle mind” is feed it junk-food media: Twitter feeds and terrible TV and crappy “news” outlets and shock-jock radio shows. And the Devil really does seem to have a field day on that playground. 

[katilac]

3 minutes ago, MercyA said:

Yes. My only advice is try not to engage in any political conversation, because there is no changing their minds. Gentle, calm statements of fact are fine to a point, but I wouldn't try to respond more than once or twice before just changing the subject. "Oh, let's talk about something more pleasant." "Well, I can't agree with you there, but how about this snow we're having?" And, if they won't let up, "Sorry, have to go, have a nice  evening."

I will do this for general politics for sure, but statements of hatred or racial slurs require something stronger imo.  At a minimum, "I told you that I won't listen to this racist bullsh!" and hang up. If you're in person, leave. No matter how inconvenient or how far the drive. 

[katilac]

1 minute ago, Quill said:

It absolutely is an addiction to being outraged. 

I have been thinking recently about the old saying, “An idle mind is the Devil’s playground.” I think there is a lot of truth in that and currently, what a lot of people do with their “idle mind” is feed it junk-food media: Twitter feeds and terrible TV and crappy “news” outlets and shock-jock radio shows. And the Devil really does seem to have a field day on that playground. 

I've only heard the part that goes, "Idle hands are the devil's workshop" but this makes even more sense. Busy hands with an idle mind can still consume great quantities of junk food media. 

[Lecka]

I think my husband’s aunt probably talked to my MIL.

They have similar political views, but my husband’s aunt is good at not bringing up politics.
 

I think that is something that has helped.

 

Edit: my MIL has said things before like “why do you get along with this person and that person who think the same things I think?” And it is because they are civil.  

 

Edited February 4, 2021 by Lecka

[Lecka]

When they were not talking, I think it also gave my husband a chance to see he really did miss her and want to talk to her.  
 

If that weren’t the case, I would be in favor of letting the relationship decrease.

 

Edited February 4, 2021 by Lecka

[prairiewindmomma]

I just got off the phone with my mother (who is not the woman I referenced above). The woman recently went off on my sister and my mom as well. 

So, on one hand I am relieved it’s not just me. On the other hand, my mom also sees no signs of a mini stroke or other organic cause. She attributed it to her watching more tv than usual because of covid. She is essentially home alone with her tv a lot.

I have traditionally been one of the ones who has helped her in a crisis (staying in her home for a week or two post-surgery, etc.) because she is a widow with no children, but I don’t think I could do that right now. I am down to deal with hallucinations, repetitive conversation, truly odd ideas, quirks, and total nursing care (all things we have done with other family members) but not the vitriol.... I think I just need to grieve the relationship we once had...this is what today feels like, a loss of a person I knew and much loved. The woman yelling at me today was not really her. 🥺
 

Don’t know what to do with the other relationship, but my mom attributes the same cause.

[PeterPan]

1 hour ago, prairiewindmomma said:

It’s like a really bad persevative hyperfocus if I were to reframe it in ASD terms. I could live with that if it was only an intellectual preoccupation. It’s the side of NPD with the anger and attacks that is making this difficult.

Sort of a rabbit trail, but do you think there's a connection between ASD and NPD? I'm just not up on it, but it seems like sometimes they're using the term NPD and the person could almost go ASD. 

And yeah, it's not shocking that someone with some problems anyway is having problems sorting things out. And yeah, if she brought things up in front of your kids that you had been trying to keep out of the conversation, I can see why you're pissed. On politics, I talk anything with my ds. With covid, I kept all conversations out as they just weren't healthy for him. But I can see how for some people it would be the reverse. 

Does it work to just put sort of a prefilter for your kids, like hey this person doesn't have the (experiences, beliefs, whatever) we have and how they roll isn't how they roll? I mean, we've got a pretty diverse extended family, and some people just need a little pre-instruction for the kids before exposing. I'm sure you've already thought of that. 

I guess there are advantages to having a social thinking disability. If I don't want to talk with you, I'm probably going to just walk away, lol. I don't pass the bean dip. I'm just gonna apologize and go get a rice krispie.

[PeterPan]

17 minutes ago, prairiewindmomma said:

yelling

She was YELLING at you?? That plus the other list you had (including hallucinations) sure sounds like she needs to see a doctor, pdoc... This is not a rational conversation.

Now I will tell you, my dad is diagnosed with (pick a label that involves hallucinations and irrational thinking) and tv DOES make it worse. I have to go crazy Pollyanna with him to counterbalance it. In his case, he's just watching mainstream news, whatever shows up on the cheapest cable package. And personally, I'm getting really tired of the negativity, the world is going to pot, and the whole spin of it, because EVERY NIGHT that's what he says to me when we talk on the phone. And I tell him the world is NOT going to pot and we talk until he cheers up.

So if someone has a psychiatric issue and they're cooped up and watch negative news on tv, yeah it's gonna mess them way up.

Or this woman isn't hallucinating? I don't know. Some people are above my pay grade. I talk to my dad till he cheers up, because 1) I have clout with him and 2) he will cheer up. Actually I crack really bad jokes till he does. But I don't have that relationship with everyone and there are just sorta boundaries there.

If you're a Bible reader, there's a verse that says we're happy for ourselves. We can't give it to someone else and can't solve everyone's problems. 

Edited February 4, 2021 by PeterPan

[katilac]

12 minutes ago, PeterPan said:

She was YELLING at you?? That plus the other list you had (including hallucinations)  

She didn't say the person was having hallucinations; she said she could deal with hallucinations and other big problems but not with the vitriol. 

[Frances]

1 hour ago, PeterPan said:

Ok, I'm gonna say this, but could ya'll kindly hold back a bit on the you're horrible dagger knives thing?

It has almost ALWAYS been good advice not to talk politics (or anything related to politics) with one's family. If they thought they were of the same point of view as  you and brought it up, well now it's apparent they're not. So maybe just handle it that way?

But then, the other thing is I think it's so odd, this whole idea that we need to restrict freedom of speech and the flow of ideas, the idea that CENSORSHIP is ok. And you probably don't actually think that, but it's sorta what you said. If they didn't have those viewpoints, they wouldn't resonate with them. You would watch those shows (if you were so inclined) and filter. Nuts, those people have probably been saying (or at least thinking) what you're saying, with tropes like CNN=Communist News Network, etc. But they don't call for taking down CNN. They just figure people have to sort things out for themselves and use some common sense.

At some point, there has to be space to DISAGREE and not say we all have to be homogenous within our families or countries or censor to get there. I don't think this rush to censor, call everything we disagree with a "conspiracy" and "disinformation" is helpful. It's certainly not part of free speech in a free country.

So I guess do what most presidents say to do after they are inaugurated and look for what unites you and focus on that. 

I think perhaps you are confused about what censorship and free speech mean. Of course people can spew all of the hate, lies, propaganda, conspiracy theories, and disinformation they want to no matter the medium, but that doesn’t mean that decent people have to listen to it (or read it), tolerate it in their lives, or agree with it. Free speech does not mean free of consequences. Businesses and individuals can freely choose not to associate with it. That’s quite different from the government restricting or censoring speech.

And like it or not, there are actual facts and there are actual lies, conspiracy theories, disinformation, and propaganda. And unlike you, it doesn’t appear to me that a significant segment of our population can always use common sense and figure out the difference anymore after the relentless onslaught of the last five years. And it is causing real, actual harm as demonstrated on January 6. 

What good comes from people choosing to surround themselves with lies, disinformation, propaganda, and conspiracy theories? Wouldn’t it be better if people were searching for truth and common, basic facts and then disagreeing about policies, approaches, solutions, etc.? That’s how we will get to unity. Not by living in biased media and social media bubbles that instill fear, anger, and division. Obviously I can’t control what others say, nor am I asking the government to, but I can choose to support with my $, votes, clicks, and views individuals, businesses, and media sources that promote facts and seek truth.

[prairiewindmomma]

I listed hallucinations as something I am willing to take on in a person, not that she had had them.

We had had to have the “woman grew up in a different time period” and “we don’t all have to agree” and “here’s how we politely change conversations” with the kids several years ago when they became aware she has racist and other beliefs that don’t match my kids’ moral codes. She was making fun of a Muslim woman not realizing Youngest’s best friend wears a hijab and that my daughter that same week had worn a scarf all day to see what life while headcovering would be like. Youngest was 5 at the time and really hurt she was making fun of her friend.
 

Like, the social filters fell off some time in the past and we just coped because the relationship was important. 
 

I don’t think the woman has psych issues beyond her usual anxiety. The non-neurotypical family members come from a different branch. I mentioned that only because we have a dang high tolerance for bad social skills and we have more tools in our toolbox than usual. It’s that this is that egregious. Yes, she was yelling. And I had my phone and was FaceTiming to make sure I could see her—that she was dressed, that dishes weren’t piling up, the usual “check on the elderly” type of call—so dd could hear both sides clearly. I do the calls almost daily as my part of the watchcare along with medical stuff and other family takes on keeping her house going (hooking up WiFi, turning on the fireplace, replacing her fridge filter, etc.) and inviting her for the holidays since I live cross-country. She’s on the edge of needing assisted living or hiring a handyman and personal assistant. She already has a housekeeper. Anyway, she took it to a personal level and as part of her rant accused me of corrupting my children and turning them all away from the truth. 

Apparently the reason she went off on my sister is in part because my sister suggested she watch more Hallmark (her other favorite channel) and less news. Sister watched the news and her concerns lined up with what had been discussed in the past couple of days. So, there is some parroting going on, in the sense that her concerns of the day match what was on that channel recently.

[popmom]

2 hours ago, katilac said:

 

 

To the second part: I for one am not looking to unite with people who are proudly racist. "Oh, you think whites are the superior race and also that Firefly is one of the best shows ever? Let's focus on the Firefly bit, I guess."

I can relate to both sides of this. I, too, struggle with a parent who  is addicted to outrage, and keeps the news network on every waking hour. This person is not a racist.

 My question is... What defines a racist? This is where I can relate to some of what PeterPan was saying. It seems that the definition of what makes someone a racist keeps getting broader and broader. So if anyone --whether they consider themselves conservative or otherwise--holds a certain position or idea that has nothing to do with promoting, maintaining, or encouraging white supremacy but may be be critical of certain ideas or policies, they are now automatically assumed to be racist or xenophobic. I have to be intentionally vague here, so if that makes no sense, just keep scrolling. 😉 

eta: I personally know equally as many liberals as conservatives who are addicted to outrage and feed on a constant supply of the talking heads who reinforce their views. This in an of itself does not mean that any of them are radicalized. I save that label for conspiracy theorists. 

Edited February 4, 2021 by popmom

[popmom]

1 hour ago, Frances said:

I think perhaps you are confused about what censorship and free speech mean. Of course people can spew all of the hate, lies, propaganda, conspiracy theories, and disinformation they want to no matter the medium, but that doesn’t mean that decent people have to listen to it (or read it), tolerate it in their lives, or agree with it. Free speech does not mean free of consequences. Businesses and individuals can freely choose not to associate with it. That’s quite different from the government restricting or censoring speech.

And like it or not, there are actual facts and there are actual lies, conspiracy theories, disinformation, and propaganda. And unlike you, it doesn’t appear to me that a significant segment of our population can always use common sense and figure out the difference anymore after the relentless onslaught of the last five years. And it is causing real, actual harm as demonstrated on January 6. 

What good comes from people choosing to surround themselves with lies, disinformation, propaganda, and conspiracy theories? Wouldn’t it be better if people were searching for truth and common, basic facts and then disagreeing about policies, approaches, solutions, etc.? That’s how we will get to unity. Not by living in biased media and social media bubbles that instill fear, anger, and division. Obviously I can’t control what others say, nor am I asking the government to, but I can choose to support with my $, votes, clicks, and views individuals, businesses, and media sources that promote facts and seek truth.

Respectfully, I would say regarding businesses in this new age of social media, this is up for debate. I mean, I agree with you. I'm just saying there are nuances that will need to be addressed.

Edited February 4, 2021 by popmom

[Farrar]

To me, someone thinking that there is a deep state where former presidents and first ladies traffic kids for s*x through pizza restaurants and that hundreds of judges, state officials, and corporations of both parties colluded to steal a national election and that people at the Capitol who were openly saying exactly who they were were actually on the total opposite side and that the pandemic was planned by big pharma to sell vaccines... are NOT political views. None of that is VIEWS at all. It's delusional. It's a complete an utter inability to accept reality.

People can debate who should carry larger tax burdens, what the government should and should not do in terms of services and so forth, how protectionist trade policy should be, how people should be treated, whether torture is okay, etc. etc. etc. People can debate what bias and racism and sexism really are and how important they are to do anything about and whether they're problems. People can debate who is doing a good or bad job or which party or politician has the right approach - and that includes politicians who tell lies but have the right ideas. People can debate morality and ethics and so forth. Those are views. And I have many times walked away from letting conversations with relatives and others approach those topics because sometimes it is better to let it go. You know, or not. There are lines. Everyone has to decide where those lines are for themselves.

The distinction that I see now - the radicalization - is that it's no longer about views at all. And acting like it's about a viewpoint feeds into the idea that there's any legitimacy to these absolute lies. People who believe that Trump should have won the election or that it's important to keep stricter checks on who is allowed to vote or who believe that the new president poses such a unique danger to the country that he should be stopped by any means, including violent ones or ones that would be unthinkable in other times have a VIEW. People who think that the president did not win the election have been duped into believing a complete lie. That's not a viewpoint. It's just fake.

[katilac]

1 hour ago, popmom said:

I can relate to both sides of this. I, too, struggle with a parent who  is addicted to outrage, and keeps the news network on every waking hour. This person is not a racist.

 My question is... What defines a racist? This is where I can relate to some of what PeterPan was saying. It seems that the definition of what makes someone a racist keeps getting broader and broader. So if anyone --whether they consider themselves conservative or otherwise--holds a certain position or idea that has nothing to do with promoting, maintaining, or encouraging white supremacy but may be be critical of certain ideas or policies, they are now automatically assumed to be racist or xenophobic. I have to be intentionally vague here, so if that makes no sense, just keep scrolling. 😉 

eta: I personally know equally as many liberals as conservatives who are addicted to outrage and feed on a constant supply of the talking heads who reinforce their views. This in an of itself does not mean that any of them are radicalized. I save that label for conspiracy theorists. 

Bolding by me: for the purpose of my part of this conversation, the racists define themselves. When I say that I don't want to unite with someone who is proudly racist, that is exactly what I mean and nothing more. I'm down with differing opinions on the nuances of immigration, but not with "They shouldn't let those dirty (slurs) from Not-Americastan be citizens, they're all a bunch of criminals." I won't write you off for debating whether certain types of affirmative action do more harm than good, but "No (insert race or ethnicity here) would ever get into the Ivy League otherwise" is a no-go. And my example of, "White people are the superior race" is stark evidence of racism to me.

I'm not talking about subtlety here. I am talking about exactly what the OP said, people who are proudly racist. 

With an older person, particularly one who needs my assistance, I would certainly continue to call and visit as needed for their safety, and I would engage and be social if they were civilized.  But even then, I consider it very important to not tacitly accept open racism. I can clean your house while chatting with you or I can listen to music instead, your choice. My daughter can come with me or she can stay home, your choice. 

Edited February 4, 2021 by katilac

[popmom]

2 minutes ago, katilac said:

Bolding by me: for the purpose of my part of this conversation, the racists define themselves. When I say that I don't want to unite with someone who is proudly racist, that is exactly what I mean and nothing more. I'm down with differing opinions on the nuances of immigration, but not with "They shouldn't let those dirty (slurs) from Not-Americastan be citizens, they're all a bunch of criminals." I won't write you off for debating whether certain types of affirmative action do more harm than good, but "No (insert race or ethnicity here) would ever get into the Ivy League otherwise" is a no-go. And my example of, "White people are the superior race" is stark evidence of racism to me.

I'm not talking about subtlety here. I am talking about exactly what the OP said, people who are proudly racist. 

With an older person, particularly one who Ineeds my assistance, I would certainly continue to call and visit as needed for their safety, and I would engage and be social if they were civilized.  But even then, I consider it very important to not tacitly accept open racism. I can clean your house while chatting with you or I can listen to music instead, your choice. My daughter can come with me or she can stay home, your choice. 

Thank you for clarifying. I agree with you. Since I occasionally/rarely watch talking heads on both extremes of the political spectrum (not because I enjoy it or want to be outraged--I just like to keep up with their talking points and narratives), I have seen some of them who will no longer allow for discussions on certain policies topics, and instead just say, if you believe this you are a racist. Or if you voted for that/him/her, you are a racist. 

pardon the horrible grammar

 

[Guest]

6 hours ago, popmom said:

I can relate to both sides of this. I, too, struggle with a parent who  is addicted to outrage, and keeps the news network on every waking hour. This person is not a racist.

 My question is... What defines a racist? This is where I can relate to some of what PeterPan was saying. It seems that the definition of what makes someone a racist keeps getting broader and broader. So if anyone --whether they consider themselves conservative or otherwise--holds a certain position or idea that has nothing to do with promoting, maintaining, or encouraging white supremacy but may be be critical of certain ideas or policies, they are now automatically assumed to be racist or xenophobic. I have to be intentionally vague here, so if that makes no sense, just keep scrolling. 😉 

eta: I personally know equally as many liberals as conservatives who are addicted to outrage and feed on a constant supply of the talking heads who reinforce their views. This in an of itself does not mean that any of them are radicalized. I save that label for conspiracy theorists. 

To your last point first: I also know liberals who are addicted to outrage just the same as I know conservatives who are. (Personally, I know more conservatives who do that, but it is probably because I generally associate with more conservatives.) 

To your larger question about what is racist? A poster last year put up a fabulous post that broke this down better than I have ever seen. The poster did not wish to be identified with the writing. I saved it on my docs. Ill see if I can post it as an attachment. 

Anti Racism, Racism, “Not Racist”.pdf

[Scarlett]

1 hour ago, Quill said:

To your last point first: I also know liberals who are addicted to outrage just the same as I know conservatives who are. (Personally, I know more conservatives who do that, but it is probably because I generally associate with more conservatives.) 

To your larger question about what is racist? A poster last year put up a fabulous post that broke this down better than I have ever seen. The poster did not wish to be identified with the writing. I saved it on my docs. Ill see if I can post it as an attachment. 

Anti Racism, Racism, “Not Racist”.pdf 49.5 kB · 10 downloads

I remember this.  Very thought provoking.  

[RootAnn]

My FIL watches a lot of TV. He's also addicted to poking the bear in that he needs to bring up topics that he believes will get a reaction out of whomever he is talking to. This is often politics, but could be food, race, sexuality, abortion, religion, extended family members, sports, or homeschooling. He loves to argue and he is always right.

I used to fall for it but learned from the Hive how to redirect. DH is now learning how to let his dad do his speech & move on. (Since I was the target & such an easy one, DH was spared. I assume MIL bore the brunt while she was alive. DIL would rather pick fights with women. He openly dispises "strong women.") DH is still learning, however, so he gets sucked in a lot.

The kids are less likely to engage because they just acknowledge this is the way Grandpa is. Just like they have learned to shield themselves from my mother's horrifically insensitive statements  (although I have minimized their exposure to my mother significantly in the last several years due to her toxic behavior). Redirection, acknowledgement that he isn't going to change his views or his loud pronouncements about things he is sure are accurate based on his consuming the 24 hour news channel output, and attempting to have a relationship with whatever is left has been the attempt here because it is important to DH.

FWIW, FIL is consuming a different news channel than the one the OP likely was referring to & is a devoted member of & contributor to a different political party than what most of the examples given in this thread so far. 

[SKL]

While I don't agree with what those other people said (at least not the Capitol part), I think it's important for our kids to be able to hear all views without freaking out.  This is something we need to teach them.  Think about it - a rigid response to ANY view (by your kid) is intellectually the same as what your disappointing family members are doing.

When my kids hear things that are radical, I engage them in a discussion about it.  I would never support cutting off a family member over a political difference of opinion.

In the few situations I've seen where racist comments were said around or in connection with my kids, I spoke to the person who said it in ways intended to either help them grow (young people) or warn them to stop (older ones).  I also spoke to my kids to give them context of where that may have come from.

(ETA I should also note that I try hard to avoid political discussions with people who disrespect my views and vice versa.  It's not fun, I'm too old, and life is too short.  But it's the topics I avoid, not the people.  Maybe I should allow the conversations more, actually, for the sake of my kids' intellectual development.  But I do think they hear quite enough from various sources.)

Edited February 4, 2021 by SKL

[Farrar]

I feel like there's some false equivalences happening here.

Having overbearing, strident views and expressing them in a rude way can happen on any side of the political landscape. And does.

Having views that are abhorrent and offensive can also happen on any side of the political landscape. What someone finds abhorrent and offensive is up for debate for sure.

A rejection of facts can happen on any side theoretically, but is only happening with one particular group at the moment on a massive scale in a mainstreamed way. And is, again, not a set of opinions or views. And is not anything anyone can debate.

To me, having a relative who is overbearing and rude about bringing up racism, abortion, gun rights or control, etc. is something that totally happens on both sides. But there is a new thing that is happening on a massive scale where that's not the issue. The issue is that people believe that there was a dark conspiracy to steal an election that simply did not happen. Or that the people who stormed the Capitol were BLM supporters. Or that apparently Jews control space lasers. These things aren't... debatable. And it's hard to just move away when someone reveals that they're detached from reality on a basic level. This - to me - is a new issues in a lot of families that is markedly different from "Aunt Jane won't shut up about systemic racism and blaming all of us for something we can't fix" or "Cousin Fred won't stop complaining that everyone is out to take his guns and turns every conversation into a tirade about his liberty" - those are things that I get why people want to shy away from. And they can happen on "both sides." But this facts thing... oy. Anyone can have a bunch of lies. But it's become a specific issue on one particular side right now on a scale that I've certainly never experienced in my lifetime.

[HS Mom in NC]

Yes, this is radicalization.  I think it's 2 pronged:

1. The loss of a sense of degrees in our culture that's fueled by idealism.  Idealism is all about perfection.  Baby Boomers (now in power in business and politics) on the whole are a very idealistic generation-both progressives and conservatives compared to Gen X, a very pragmatic bunch on the whole. When that meets with the loss of a sense of degrees, also known as black and white rigid thinking, you get this kind of attitude. To this type of person everything is high stakes (if the other party is in power we'll be subject to Nazism/fascism or on the other end of the political spectrum eastern block, gulag  type socialism) and the idea of middle ground or any form of compromise is treason, moral bankruptcy, the road to certain ruin.

2. A customizable bubble.  Our society now has the means for people to create comfy little cocoons that just echo chambers reinforcing what they already believe in news and social/political commentary.

It's definitely happening in all political camps. I'm surrounded by people of all different points of view and I see radicalization in many places along the political spectrum. I think everyone has a moral obligation to regularly seek out and listen to differing views from people who hold them as part of choosing to live a psychologically and spiritually healthy life as functioning adult.

My last encounter with a radicalized relative was a couple of months ago.  For 4 years I had changed the subject away from politics every conversation in spite of her continually bring it up and dropping nasty little insult bombs about opposition. (For the sake of disclosure I agree with progressives on some issues and conservatives on others.)  Then I decided that since this person's primary problem was her carefully crafted echo chamber and her b.s. that she was just making conversation (the truth is, making conversation is about wanting to hear an honest, civil give and take, not giving an insulting monologue) I responded honestly and civilly in a matter of fact tone.  What a shock it was to her and she railed.

Her: Statements that insult people who hold a different political view. Long rant about about the morality of the opposing political party and politicians along with some justification for bad moral behavior from politicians in her party.

Me: "I don't agree with that.  I think that's morally wrong because when (insert name of past politician from one side) did that, I said it was wrong, so now that (insert name of current politician from other side) does that, I have to be philosophically and morally consistent and say he's wrong too."

Her: "You sound so arrogant and judgemental!"

Me: "I'm sure I do. You're easily upset by all of this because you've chosen to immerse yourself in only with those who agree with you. If you make an effort to hear from a wider range of news sources from the left, the center,  and the right you'll have a more accurate sense of what's going on and won't be so bothered when you hear something you don't like."

Her: "I. am. almost. offended!"

Me: "I'm sure you are.  That's what happens when you choose not to  expose yourself to a wide range of views on topics; you're hypersensitive to hearing different points of view and can't function as well around others. "

Her: "I love you, but I'm hanging up now."

Me: "OK, I love you too. Bye."

It was about a month before she called me again.  She didn't mention politics or say anything insulting about anyone.  She hasn't in the 2 conversations either.  That's the thing-people who build echo chambers aren't comfortable will opposing ideas, so when they figure out you're willing to engage them with opposing ideas, it's too upsetting and scary, so they probably won't bring it up.

[TravelingChris]

18 hours ago, prairiewindmomma said:

I need advice on how to handle relationships with extended family (a few households, same geographic area). Over the last few years, they have been watching a lot of tv. I have seen a huge shift in their thinking in the last few years. They are angry and outraged about everything. They are xenophobic...where they were quietly racist before they are now openly so and proud of it. They lack empathy. They have rigid opinions. They pick and goad. Quite frankly, it is unpleasant to listen to them rant.

I have, for the most part, just letting them do them, in the hopes that some measure of relationship could remain...in hoping this was perhaps dementia...in hoping the election cycle would improve matters.

Today, in a conversation with one of them, one was mentioning certain news items and I asked a clarifying question about what she meant by a statement (I am glad your kids are not in school right now if they are anything like New York schools.) I thought she was referring to a covid outbreak. Instead, she mentioned a political position. And then she attacked me and how awful I am for not having her same views. It felt as if she thought she was being attacked for her narrowmindedness and named me the aggressor while she was attacking me. (Victim complex? Fragility?) She likewise expressed sympathy for those who broke into the capitol. I said I had to  go empty the dishwasher before lunch and quickly ended the call before it spiraled further.

My daughter heard it all and backed away in horror. She doesn’t want to talk to her again.

Are any of you experiencing this? It’s almost like a radicalization...Any advice? I am still just sitting in shock over this hours later. 

Nothing to do with tv.  I watch a lot of tv  and that includes Fox News too and hey, while I wouldn't either have any of my kids in NYC schools and it is because of the poor education, bad educational policies, garbage replaced for true learning, etc-- I think we could get along great, even if you voted for Biden (and I have no idea who you voted for but you don't seem like a person who would start calling me names for voting for Trump)

And, no I most likely  don't have sympathy for those who broke into Capitol---- certainly not for the violent types-- I haven't researched it enough to know whether any of the people were swept up in the crowd  were just exercising free speech outside the Capitol and got endangered from the giant rush to storm the place( and I do know that the Capitol is 1.3 miles away from Freedom Plaza and that the Trump was still on the stage when the protestors  stormed the Capitol so my sympathy is very limited, if I have any at all because in my view, if you wanted to protest this election, you should have been at the rally at Freedom Plaza, listening to President Trump and there would be no problems for you then since you wouldn't have gotten involved in the riot).  

I don't think it is the tv- as much as it is other media and sources. On Fox, I see lots of opposing views and lots of Democrats too.  But it is the general attitude that BldsMom was complaining about in her thread about people who attack on Facebook.  It is a personality trait or maybe learning difference or something where everything is black and white and no shades of gray anywhere and where everyone is categorized as us or them.  https://www.al.com/opinion/2021/01/the-american-political-spectrum-is-a-lie.html   This is an excellent piece by a person who thinks like me (and probably you too Prairiewindmomma).  It is what your relative is missing the point about.    

Sorry you had that experience and hope you don't have to have lots of interaction with her.  (But at least she isn't like my dd's mil who she heard yesterday urging her son to divorce her and come live at home and dd1 is going to have to see her this weekend at dsil's grandfathers funeral)

[Scarlett]

4 minutes ago, TravelingChris said:

 

Sorry you had that experience and hope you don't have to have lots of interaction with her.  (But at least she isn't like my dd's mil who she heard yesterday urging her son to divorce her and come live at home and dd1 is going to have to see her this weekend at dsil's grandfathers funeral)

Yikes.  That is what I would call a toxic MIL.  I had one of those for 26 years.  Very difficult to deal with.

[HS Mom in NC]

45 minutes ago, TravelingChris said:

Nothing to do with tv.  I watch a lot of tv 

But unlike the elderly, you're not spending literally all day long and most of the evening, 6 days a week in front of FOX News taking breaks only to listen to Rush Limbaugh for 3 solid hours 5 days a week.  I'd bet a mortgage payment most of the people we're talking about here that cause endless friction are people who do. There's an equivalent on the political left. I'm not exactly sure what their sources are as those aren't the people I'm personally dealing with, so maybe someone else can chime in with examples.  You're engaged with the world outside your house, neighborhood, and local church congregation. Being here at WTM is a source of varied views.

and that includes Fox News too and hey,  On Fox, I see lots of opposing views and lots of Democrats too.

But what you aren't seeing if you choose only right wing news (or left wing) is that what stories are covered at all are different on the right and left, and sometimes which details of the stories are covered differ too. I doubt you're seeing a liberal speaking for an hour long commentary type show like Hannity's on Fox. I'm often doing quick google searches and posting links to news media sources when FB friends post nonsense "What the mainstream/lamestream media doesn't want you to know!" and then a news report.  So I post a link of a mainstream news source that most certainly DID cover that story.  I know, I seek out left, right and middle news every.single. day. The political leanings of my FB friends is very much in proportion with the nation-about 40% right, 40% left and 20% that fall in the middle in various ways and 3rd party, so I get to see how insulted people on the far right and far left can be from the diverse views that make up the states and country they live in.

 

[Pawz4me]

1 hour ago, TravelingChris said:

Nothing to do with tv.  I watch a lot of tv  and that includes Fox News

It may not for you, but I can absolutely assure you that Fox News (and a few TV "preachers") have everything to do with my relative's problems. I suspect many who have posted here actually do know the root cause of their own person's issues. It really is very presumptuous to assume you know our people better than we do.

As far as what @Homeschool Mom in AZjust posted ("There's an equivalent on the political left") -- Is there? A true equivalent to FN on the left? If so, can someone tell me what it is? Asking sincerely, as I truly have no idea, but can't think of anything that's remotely equivalent. All the left leaning people I know get their news from a wide variety of sources, and I can't imagine a single one of them who'd be willing to allow (for lack of a better word) one media source to have that level of power over them.

[HS Mom in NC]

5 minutes ago, Pawz4me said:

It may not for you, but I can absolutely assure you that Fox News (and a few TV "preachers") have everything to do with my relative's problems. I suspect many who have posted here actually do know the root cause of their own person's issues. It really is very presumptuous to assume you know our people better than we do.

As far as what @Homeschool Mom in AZjust posted ("There's an equivalent on the political left") -- Is there? A true equivalent to FN on the left? If so, can someone tell me what it is? Asking sincerely, as I truly have no idea, but can't think of anything that's remotely equivalent. All the left leaning people I know get their news from a wide variety of sources, and I can't imagine a single one of them who'd be willing to allow (for lack of a better word) one media source to have that level of power over them.

I suspect you aren't encountering radical leftists like the people in Portland (or maybe it was Seattle) protesting Biden. Or people who want to ban conservatives from guest speaking at universities.  Or people who do want to fully defund the police entirely.

[katilac]

11 minutes ago, Homeschool Mom in AZ said:

I suspect you aren't encountering radical leftists like the people in Portland (or maybe it was Seattle) protesting Biden. Or people who want to ban conservatives from guest speaking at universities.  Or people who do want to fully defund the police entirely.

I think she was asking about an equivalent to Fox News, not a radical left equivalent in general: 

Is there? A true equivalent to FN on the left? 

[DawnM]

It isn't just TV, I have some friends who have become more this way who don't watch TV, and I have friends who haven't who are watching more TV than usual.

 

[Pawz4me]

22 minutes ago, Homeschool Mom in AZ said:

I suspect you aren't encountering radical leftists like the people in Portland (or maybe it was Seattle) protesting Biden. Or people who want to ban conservatives from guest speaking at universities.  Or people who do want to fully defund the police entirely.

?????

 

8 minutes ago, katilac said:

I think she was asking about an equivalent to Fox News, not a radical left equivalent in general: 

Is there? A true equivalent to FN on the left? 

Yes. ^^This.^^

[historically accurate]

Just now, Plum said:

Media bias chart 

https://www.adfontesmedia.com/interactive-media-bias-chart-2/

 

 

So looking at this chart, 

a) I feel pretty good about my personal sources, so yay for me.

b) I'd say Fox News-TV does not really have a left-bias counterpart - media-wise (TV news media & news-entertainment shows) I'd say the counterpart is CNN-TV, which rates much higher in reliability and lower in bias than Fox News on this chart. Online sources can be as biased and unreliable, but I don't know anyone who reads Occupy Democrats for hours daily; I do know quite a few people who watch Fox News or CNN for hours daily. 

[Pawz4me]

9 minutes ago, Plum said:

Media bias chart 

https://www.adfontesmedia.com/interactive-media-bias-chart-2/

 

 

 

Yes, I suspect most of us are familiar with that or similar media bias ratings. But that's not really the question. It's more -- Is there a media source that has the same level of influence over those on the left as Fox News does on those on the right? If that source is identified, then we could get into whether or not it's as (un)trustworthy as Fox News. But I don't think it exists.

[livetoread]

I think there is a difference between bias and pushing things that simply aren't true. There are left-leaning media sources that are biased. I read WP and NYT regularly, and I think they are slightly biased to the left. However, they try and be factual, even if biased, if that makes sense. You aren't getting a full picture, but the part of the picture you are getting is factual. I don't think there is a left equivalent to FN on cable or regular TV in terms of pushing things that are simply not true. There are certainly plenty of websites though, goodness knows. Lots of wacko left pages.