Does this math curriculum exist?

[Masers]

Okay. 
i posted several days ago (“torn on math”) about whether I should stick with our current math program (Math lessons for a living education) or not. I’m pretty well convinced we should switch for next year, and I got some great suggestions from posters. (Thank you!) 

However, after looking through information and samples of all the different programs, I feel more confused than ever! 

Next year, I will have a first and fourth grader. Here is what I am looking for. Does this exist?! Or am I totally dreaming??

1. Rigorous and academically strong, in that the child would be able to easily assimilate into public school math in the future. (hopefully in an honors or advanced track...) We don’t know how long we will be homeschooling, but there is a very good possibility they will at least attend public high school. Even if they don’t, I *definitely* want them to have the option to enter a STEM field as an adult.

2. Appealing to my children. My kids LOVE stories and games. They LOATHE busywork, worksheets, and long lessons. They do not enjoy feeling challenged at all. Obviously I know they need to be challenged at times, so if they can at least somewhat be engaged while doing so, that would be great. They are both pretty emotional kids, which can often come out as anger and frustration, which is not fun for me. I want them to enjoy math!!
 

3. Simple and straightforward for me to teach. As I mentioned in my last post, math was always my weakest subject. I did fine in school, but never enjoyed math or felt at ALL confident. Looking forward to what higher levels of math entail (even just 5th and 6th grade, honestly), I feel dread in pit of my stomach. I felt totally adequate to teach basic math and the four orders of operation, but I will have to relearn even just fractions and decimals. (This is embarrassing for me to admit!) I think something that is well laid-out for me, includes good explanations and teaching instructions, would be important. At the same time, I don’t want anything long or involved, or to be flipping between a million different handbooks, workbooks, textbooks, etc. I know I will need to outsource junior high math, if we are still homeschooling, but I would like to be pretty involved in grade school to ensure they are really grasping the concepts. 
 

4. Relatively short and concise lessons. I will have these two kids, a preschooler, and a baby next year. We also have a ton of other stuff going on. I don’t want to spend my whole day doing homeschool lessons. One of the main reasons homeschooling appeals to me so much is that it allows so much flexibility. I like having our afternoons free, and I want that to continue next year. I try to do a lot family style, but I know they need individual instruction with math and language arts. So if it can be open-and-go, fairly quick to get through, and something the kids can do pretty independently (meaning, I will do a lesson/explanation for them, and then they can go aside and do the work on their own, while I teach another kid)...that would be ideal. 
 

So...does this exist? Or am I totally fooling myself? (I already know the answer!) 

What might get me closest to my impossible dream?

Thanks in advance!

 

[Not_a_Number]

Did anything you looked over appeal to you? 🙂 I think a lot of the things you want really depend on your own personal preference, as well as your kids' preferences. 

[Masers]

12 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

Did anything you looked over appeal to you? 🙂 I think a lot of the things you want really depend on your own personal preference, as well as your kids' preferences. 

Sort of??

i guess I’m still considering THe Good and the Beautiful, but Right Start and Horizons were mentioned and looked like they could be good, too. I am probably not going to go with Right Start because it looks like it will be very long and teacher-intensive. However, I see the positives. Horizon looks like it could be a possibility, but reviews look a bit mixed as I read online. I’m not sure! I really liked that MLFLE minimized the tears On their end, and was very simple for me to teach. Very open-and-go, no extra manuals, etc. (however, I will probably need more teaching instruction after this year, so I’m not sure that will continue to be a pro.) It meshed well with my non-mathy brain. However, I can’t let my non-mathiness negatively impact them...I mean, I can’t keep them in a light program just because it’s easier for me!

not sure where to go from here!

 

[Not_a_Number]

1 minute ago, Masers said:

Sort of??

i guess I’m still considering THe Good and the Beautiful, but Right Start and Horizons were mentioned and looked like they could be good, too. I am probably not going to go with Right Start because it looks like it will be very long and teacher-intensive. However, I see the positives. Horizon looks like it could be a possibility, but reviews look a bit mixed as I read online. I’m not sure! I really liked that MLFLE minimized the tears On their end, and was very simple for me to teach. Very open-and-go, no extra manuals, etc. (however, I will probably need more teaching instruction after this year, so I’m not sure that will continue to be a pro.) It meshed well with my non-mathy brain. However, I can’t let my non-mathiness negatively impact them...I mean, I can’t keep them in a light program just because it’s easier for me!

not sure where to go from here!

I've heard good things about Right Start. I honestly wouldn't go with The Good and the Beautiful and MLFLE -- the kids in my homeschooling classes who were doing programs like these weren't particularly solid, even the ones that were clearly mathy.  

I'd say that if you're not mathy and you don't want to outsource, what you actually want is a hands-on curriculum that will explain everything clearly to you. So, more like Right Start or Singapore math than like MLFLE. 

[Masers]

6 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

I've heard good things about Right Start. I honestly wouldn't go with The Good and the Beautiful and MLFLE -- the kids in my homeschooling classes who were doing programs like these weren't particularly solid, even the ones that were clearly mathy.  

I'd say that if you're not mathy and you don't want to outsource, what you actually want is a hands-on curriculum that will explain everything clearly to you. So, more like Right Start or Singapore math than like MLFLE. 

Thanks so much. 
i was wondering about TGTB. I was concerned that it might be the same thing as MLFLE, since they looked similar, but I read Kate Snow’s review of math curriculums. She was pretty direct that MLFLE is not enough and is not doing a mathy kid any favors. However, she was much more positive about TGTB and thought it was good with helping kids get a solid foundation. But if you noticed the same issues as the kids in MLFLE, that is discouraging.

do you know anything about horizons? I’ll go look at right start again. It’s so expensive, so I would hate to invest if we don’t like it. But you hit it on the nose that I probably need a decent amount of explanation and scriptedness for the higher levels. I really appreciate the feedback. 

 

[Kiara.I]

1 hour ago, Masers said:

Sort of??

i guess I’m still considering THe Good and the Beautiful, but Right Start and Horizons were mentioned and looked like they could be good, too. I am probably not going to go with Right Start because it looks like it will be very long and teacher-intensive. However, I see the positives. Horizon looks like it could be a possibility, but reviews look a bit mixed 

 

Rightstart is rigorous, in a sense. It's not particularly long? I guess that depends on what "long" is. And your child. I have had four-hour days, but that's because my child was willing to stare at the ceiling for that long before doing the ten minutes of work required. I don't think we can blame the curriculum for that one! LOL Parent intensive? Yes. Because teaching math is teaching math. Unless you get a program that doesn't involve the parent, but I recommend strongly against that, especially for a parent who feels uncertain in math.

 

I think it's going to be very difficult to find an academically solid program that doesn't involve making the kids feel challenged. Math is going to require some sitting there and figuring it out. If it doesn't, then they're not building that skill either, and won't have it when they need it.

Edited January 24, 2021 by Kiara.I
My phone doesn't intuit grammar!

[AnneGG]

I bought TGTB math 1 when it was on sale for $25. I like the math activity box, but the curriculum seems too easy. We are doing Horizon Math K and it is far more advanced than TGTB grade 1. It will be interesting to see their new math, although I don’t plan to use it. 
 

If you are not confident in your math teaching abilities I would pass on Horizons. There is not a lot of help in Teacher’s Manual. It wasn’t a problem for me in the K level, but I can see it being an issue for me in the next few years. Also Horizons is advanced compared to MLFLE, so that may be frustrating for everybody. There isn’t a big emphasis on mastery of even basic facts in Horizons. We had to pause several times so he could master addition facts 1-10, money values, and number formation. 
 

 

[Not_a_Number]

1 minute ago, Masers said:

Thanks so much. 
i was wondering about TGTB. I was concerned that it might be the same thing as MLFLE, since they looked similar, but I read Kate Snow’s review of math curriculums. She was pretty direct that MLFLE is not enough and is not doing a mathy kid any favors. However, she was much more positive about TGTB and thought it was good with helping kids get a solid foundation. But if you noticed the same issues as the kids in MLFLE, that is discouraging.

Hmmm, interesting. I think the families I knew who used it weren't super serious, so it's possible one can do better using it. I just personally wasn't impressed. 

I do kind of lump them together from having glanced at them (and because one family I knew seemed to be using both), but it's possible I do them a disservice. 

 

1 minute ago, Masers said:

do you know anything about horizons? I’ll go look at right start again. It’s so expensive, so I would hate to invest if we don’t like it. But you hit it on the nose that I probably need a decent amount of explanation and scriptedness for the higher levels. I really appreciate the feedback. 

 

I don't know much about Horizons, no. 

The mathy people on here seem to largely like Right Start, Singapore, Math Mammoth, Miquon, and Beast Academy. I DIY the math, so I'm just passing on what other people have said -- the most I've done with any of these is glance at them 🙂 . 

[Masers]

5 minutes ago, Kiara.I said:

Rightstart is rigorous, in a sense. It's not particularly long? I guess that depends on what "long" is. And your child. I have had four-hour days, but that's because my child was willing to stare at the ceiling for that long before doing the ten minutes of work required. I don't think we can blame the curriculum for that one! LOL Parent intensive? Yes. Because teaching math is teaching math. Unless you get a program that doesn't involve the parent, but I recommend strongly against that, especially for a parent who feels uncertain in math.

 

I think it's going to be very difficult to find an academically solid program that doesn't involve making the kids feel challenged. Math is going to require some sitting there and figuring it out. If it doesn't, then their not building that skill either, and won't have it when they need it.

Thanks! I’m definitely going to look more into it. I have a friend who uses it, so maybe she’d be willing to let me pore over it a bit. It’s hard to get a good feel for stuff online, and of course reviews are so mixed that it’s impossible to feel totally confident before buying!

[Masers]

4 minutes ago, AnneGG said:

I bought TGTB math 1 when it was on sale for $25. I like the math activity box, but the curriculum seems too easy. We are doing Horizon Math K and it is far more advanced than TGTB grade 1. It will be interesting to see their new math, although I don’t plan to use it. 
 

If you are not confident in your math teaching abilities I would pass on Horizons. There is not a lot of help in Teacher’s Manual. It wasn’t a problem for me in the K level, but I can see it being an issue for me in the next few years. Also Horizons is advanced compared to MLFLE, so that may be frustrating for everybody. There isn’t a big emphasis on mastery of even basic facts in Horizons. We had to pause several times so he could master addition facts 1-10, money values, and number formation. 
 

 

Great—that is really good to know. Thank you so much...helps immensely to hear from people how have used it. 

[Masers]

4 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

Hmmm, interesting. I think the families I knew who used it weren't super serious, so it's possible one can do better using it. I just personally wasn't impressed. 

I do kind of lump them together from having glanced at them (and because one family I knew seemed to be using both), but it's possible I do them a disservice. 

 

I don't know much about Horizons, no. 

The mathy people on here seem to largely like Right Start, Singapore, Math Mammoth, Miquon, and Beast Academy. I DIY the math, so I'm just passing on what other people have said -- the most I've done with any of these is glance at them 🙂 . 

Great, thank you! I know BA and Singapores will be a no-go due to our initial experience (yesterday my son saw me looking at Beast Academy Online and was like, “I don’t want to do that again!!” Ha.) And Miquon only goes up to grade 3. And Math Mammoth confuses me just looking at it. 😂 Soo...Right Start might be the answer. It helps that my friend who uses it is probably less mathy than me, yet they seem to be successful with it. So...! (she was also the one who said it is really parent-intensive and she struggles to handle her kindergartner and toddler with how long the lessons can take...so that was my one impression of it!)

[AnneGG]

4 minutes ago, Masers said:

Great—that is really good to know. Thank you so much...helps immensely to hear from people how have used it. 

When I say the horizons TM doesn’t offer much help, I mean it literally says “teach subtraction.” That’s it. No elaboration, no strategies, nothing. It’s basically an overpriced answer key. 

[Not_a_Number]

1 minute ago, Masers said:

Great, thank you! I know BA and Singapores will be a no-go due to our initial experience (yesterday my son saw me looking at Beast Academy Online and was like, “I don’t want to do that again!!” Ha.) And Miquon only goes up to grade 3. And Math Mammoth confuses me just looking at it. 😂 Soo...Right Start might be the answer. It helps that my friend who uses it is probably less mathy than me, yet they seem to be successful with it. So...! (she was also the one who said it is really parent-intensive and she struggles to handle her kindergartner and toddler with how long the lessons can take...so that was my one impression of it!)

I personally wouldn't write anything off after one experience 🙂. What happened with BA and Singapore? And what's so confusing about Math Mammoth? 

Right Start does sound like a good option. But honestly, I would expect any way forward to take a lot of work and time for you. It's pretty hard to teach math well if you don't remember basic math. The best thing you could probably do is get one of these curriculums and actually work through them yourself. 

[Masers]

2 minutes ago, AnneGG said:

When I say the horizons TM doesn’t offer much help, I mean it literally says “teach subtraction.” That’s it. No elaboration, no strategies, nothing. It’s basically an overpriced answer key. 

Haha that’s what it looked like when I went through the samples! I’d be fine through fourth grade, but when I looked at the fifth grade one, I was like, hmmm...I think I need someone to explain to me how to do that...lol. Thank you!Very helpful!

[Masers]

4 minutes ago, Enigma6 said:

The thing is it really doesn't matter what they LIKE, they have to learn. Most learn to like it or they don't. Do we only do work we like? Of course not! My advice to you is do not base your currirculum decisions on their likes/dislikes. Kids are lazy-- we all are. Of course they don't want to work. Of Course they want it to be fast and easy. But fast and easy isn't going to do them any favors now or later. Pick what you feel best teaching and tell the kids to suck it up. They pick up on Mom doubting like a horse picks up on fear, and they will play you like a fiddle. Be firm. Do not waver. They will come around. Wear ear plugs. Lay it out to them that is what we are doing end of story. They are KIDS, after all. 

Any program you have mentioned will be an academically solid choice. (Well, maybe not TGTB, but I digress.) Be aware Horizons has very little teacher guidance and no full solutions. It is also quite difficult to jump in at 4th grade because there is ZERO teaching of past concepts since the program assumes the child has covered these in previous levels. 

Another option is BJU Math whether you teach or use the distance learning is an excellent option and perhaps a good meet-in-the-middle for all of you.

https://www.bjupresshomeschool.com/content/home

Okay! Great. I added BJU to my “research this” list. Haha. 

 

And I totally agree with you...I know it’s my own “I don’t want to deal with this!” mentality largely driving my decision. They are SO fun to work with when they are in good moods and enjoying their work, and SO miserable to work with when they are not. I guess I should say that I DO want them to be challenged, but I also really want them to enjoy it. I guess that is probably a pipe dream! 😉

[kristin0713]

RightStart is great but very teacher intensive. 

If I could do math over for my DD, I would do CLE all the way.  The new information is a very small amount and the rest of the work is review.  The books are written to the student.  The program is thorough and strong.  

My DS thrived in Singapore, but I literally did not have to teach that child anything.  Every time we sat down to do something new, he said, "Oh, I already know this because I heard you do it with (sister)".  And he really did. 

[Not_a_Number]

1 minute ago, Masers said:

Haha that’s what it looked like when I went through the samples! I’d be fine through fourth grade, but when I looked at the fifth grade one, I was like, hmmm...I think I need someone to explain to me how to do that...lol. Thank you!Very helpful!

I think this forum is an underutilized resource for questions like this, actually. There are probably at least 10 highly trained and mathy people who could explain concepts to anyone interested. I haven't seen people actually ask, though. 

[Not_a_Number]

Just now, kristin0713 said:

If I could do math over for my DD, I would do CLE all the way.  The new information is a very small amount and the rest of the work is review.  The books are written to the student.  The program is thorough and strong.  

So, I've looked at CLE, and it looks quite procedural. Does it wind up communicating concepts well enough? How long have you used it for? 

(It's also non-secular, so it's a non-starter for me personally. But I know it's a very common suggestion on these forums, and I can't quite evaluate it.) 

 

[AnneGG]

Since you mentioned your kids like math literature, have you tried the Sir Cumference series? What about Bedtime Math? Life of Fred might be a fun supplement. If you fall down the Amazon book rabbit hole there are loads of math storybooks. 
 

Do you guys like the outdoors? What about Wild Math? If you’re artsy, Blossom & Root has a math in art supplement that is really nice. My son like crafts, so we use Tara West’s math crafts. 

 

Maybe something CLE or BJU with some fun supplements would work. I think that is what we are doing next year. 

[Masers]

6 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

I personally wouldn't write anything off after one experience 🙂. What happened with BA and Singapore? And what's so confusing about Math Mammoth? 

Right Start does sound like a good option. But honestly, I would expect any way forward to take a lot of work and time for you. It's pretty hard to teach math well if you don't remember basic math. The best thing you could probably do is get one of these curriculums and actually work through them yourself. 

I started my oldest with SIngapore (because he had done that at his private school in first grade), and he was a disaster about doing his work. Plus, I didn’t get how to teach the common core methods...I had to keep looking things up on how to teach it, and it was just kind of a mess. So I tried Beast Aademy—I honestly thought he’d love it, because of the “novelty” factor—and he DID love the comic-book textbook, but he was IMPOSSIBLE with the actual work. He seriously cried every single day, and kept saying how much he hated math, and I felt like I was watching him go from confident to unconfident right before my eyes. 

[Masers]

4 minutes ago, kristin0713 said:

RightStart is great but very teacher intensive. 

If I could do math over for my DD, I would do CLE all the way.  The new information is a very small amount and the rest of the work is review.  The books are written to the student.  The program is thorough and strong.  

My DS thrived in Singapore, but I literally did not have to teach that child anything.  Every time we sat down to do something new, he said, "Oh, I already know this because I heard you do it with (sister)".  And he really did. 

Hmm!! Okay—thanks. I know absolutely nothing about that curriculum. I’ll check it out, too! Thanks!!

[Masers]

1 minute ago, AnneGG said:

Since you mentioned your kids like math literature, have you tried the Sir Cumference series? What about Bedtime Math? Life of Fred might be a fun supplement. If you fall down the Amazon book rabbit hole there are loads of math storybooks. 
 

Do you guys like the outdoors? What about Wild Math? If you’re artsy, Blossom & Root has a math in art supplement that is really nice. My son like crafts, so we use Tara West’s math crafts. 

 

Maybe something CLE or BJU with some fun supplements would work. I think that is what we are doing next year. 

Yes, they LOVE all those math books. Sir Cumference was a huge hit. They loved Life of Fred, too. If we could just do fun living math, they’d be all in! Haha. And so would I! Love, love, love books and readalouds. Yes, we do like outdoors, too! That’s a good idea. I was initially thinking of MLFLE with supplements (Because i recognized it was too light to stand on its own), but now I feel like MLFLE is a no-go altogether, so maybe something else with supplement, like you said, is the way to go. I’ll check out both CLE and BJU and see what I think. Appreciate it.

[Not_a_Number]

1 minute ago, Masers said:

Plus, I didn’t get how to teach the common core methods...I had to keep looking things up on how to teach it, and it was just kind of a mess.

I think this is a theme here, to be honest. Whatever curriculum you pick, there are going to be humps, and it sounds like it'll be hard for you to get them over those humps, because you can't explain the math yourself. 

With that in mind, I'd 

a) Use RightStart

and 

b) Work through something like Math Mammoth by yourself from the beginning. (@EKS always suggests working through things yourself, but I never remember her favorite suggestions for that.) That's probably the biggest thing you can do to ensure success here. 

[Not_a_Number]

1 minute ago, Enigma6 said:

It is very clear in explaining the math concepts.

I'm very clear at explaining math concepts, but it doesn't mean that the kids I teach figure out the concepts if I don't make them use them 😉 . 

Anyway, this requires a spin-off thread, as you say. I may start one later. 

[Masers]

1 minute ago, Enigma6 said:

I have used CLE 100-600 LUs with various of my 6 kiddos so far. (The 4yr old is not starting yet.) It is very clear in explaining the math concepts. The lessons get LONG about 400 level. Being spiral, one expects this. It is excellent but by no means short work. 

Really, at the elementary age, kids need a teacher teaching the math (and every other subject) to them. This whole idea they should be self-teaching/independant workers by 4th grade is ridiculous. That is a topic beyond the scope of this thread, though.

Yes, I do agree in theory! I was just hoping for something where they could do most of the assignment independently (but I fully expect to do the lesson and initial instruction for all new concepts.)

[Masers]

2 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

I think this is a theme here, to be honest. Whatever curriculum you pick, there are going to be humps, and it sounds like it'll be hard for you to get them over those humps, because you can't explain the math yourself. 

With that in mind, I'd 

a) Use RightStart

and 

b) Work through something like Math Mammoth by yourself from the beginning. (@EKS always suggests working through things yourself, but I never remember her favorite suggestions for that.) That's probably the biggest thing you can do to ensure success here. 

Yes...you are right. Sadly. Haha. After all this agonizing, I’m beginning to think I should just outsource math to my much more mathematically inclined husband. (He works a lot and is only home in the evenings, which are already super busy and stressful, and my son is *done* with work by then, so I feel like we’d be setting ourselves up for failure with that schedule. But otherwise, that would be my solution! 😉

[kristin0713]

Just now, Not_a_Number said:

So, I've looked at CLE, and it looks quite procedural. Does it wind up communicating concepts well enough? How long have you used it for? 

(It's also non-secular, so it's a non-starter for me personally. But I know it's a very common suggestion on these forums, and I can't quite evaluate it.) 

 

It is very procedural, but they do explain things conceptually. I switched my DD into it for 7th grade.  She's now in Algebra 1 in 9th and still using CLE.  She is doing AMAZING.  Her math history is a little complicated.  We used RS from about K - grade 2, then switched to Singapore.  Her 5th grade year she got very ill and the entire year was a wash.  I spent 6th grade catching her up and we used a lot of MM topic downloads to target fractions, decimals, and any other gaps. 7th grade we tried CLE and it was a HUGE success.  The very small, incremental nature of the program plus all of the review was what she really needed to solidify everything.  

I will say, however, that CLE would be have been a horrible fit for my DS.  He understands math concepts very quickly and does not need all of the extra review.  He does mental math and logic problems in his head that are mind boggling to me. I am glad that I kept him in Singapore, and he is doing really well right now with Unlock Math Pre-A.  

[Masers]

1 minute ago, Enigma6 said:

You know, an off the path idea is Moving Beyond the Page Math. Book-based, and such. Drill is a part-- a needed part of math, though.

https://www.movingbeyondthepage.com/purchase/math.aspx

Ooh, interesting! At first glance, I LOVE the look of that. I wonder if it would be rigorous enough?? I’d need to investigate further. And it looks like my oldest would be at the oldest end of their highest level offered (ages 8-10, and he’ll be 10 next year), so that might not be ideal for him. But I will definitely look into that more, because it would be so much fun for us. 

[kristin0713]

10 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

(It's also non-secular, so it's a non-starter for me personally. But I know it's a very common suggestion on these forums, and I can't quite evaluate it.) 

Yeah, we are Christians and generally are fine with Christian curricula, but there have been some things for us in the word problems that have been a turn off.  I have just had to tell DD that their beliefs are different than ours and we are using it for the math.  

[Masers]

1 minute ago, Enigma6 said:

You might really look intot he BJU dlo, then. Next best thing!

Thanks! It might be the right solution after all. Or else I better gear up for some math lessons for myself this summer! 😉

[caffeineandbooks]

I hear you say that Singapore wasn't great for you, but I wanted to make sure you have seen the Home Instructor's Guide.  It gives excellent instruction on how to teach concepts: what to say, what manipulatives to use and how to use them, games to play for reinforcement (that only need two people).  Rarely we have still been stuck on a concept - place value was a hang-up for one kid so we used Beast's place value unit for a couple of weeks.  It's normal to need to occasionally stick in one place longer (or indeed shorter!) than the book suggests, perhaps finding or creating more worksheets or looking for a different way to explain it - but Singapore is solid and, to me, parent friendly.

[kristin0713]

7 minutes ago, Masers said:

Yes, I do agree in theory! I was just hoping for something where they could do most of the assignment independently (but I fully expect to do the lesson and initial instruction for all new concepts.)

So this is how we do CLE.  My daughter prefers to start with the review which takes most of the time.  Then we go over the new information together, which is pretty short, and then she does those practice problems.  So a lot of it is very independent, but I am still involved in making sure she knows the new teaching for the day.  

[Masers]

3 minutes ago, caffeineandbooks said:

I hear you say that Singapore wasn't great for you, but I wanted to make sure you have seen the Home Instructor's Guide.  It gives excellent instruction on how to teach concepts: what to say, what manipulatives to use and how to use them, games to play for reinforcement (that only need two people).  Rarely we have still been stuck on a concept - place value was a hang-up for one kid so we used Beast's place value unit for a couple of weeks.  It's normal to need to occasionally stick in one place longer (or indeed shorter!) than the book suggests, perhaps finding or creating more worksheets or looking for a different way to explain it - but Singapore is solid and, to me, parent friendly.

No...I didn’t have that. I just had the textbook and workbook. It was first grade, so obviously I knew how to do it the old-school way, but I didn’t know how to teach it the “Singapore way”. I didn’t even realize there was a home instructor’s guide. Thanks—might be worth a re-look after all! 😉

[Masers]

3 minutes ago, kristin0713 said:

So this is how we do CLE.  My daughter prefers to start with the review which takes most of the time.  Then we go over the new information together, which is pretty short, and then she does those practice problems.  So a lot of it is very independent, but I am still involved in making sure she knows the new teaching for the day.  

Right, that makes sense!

[kristin0713]

2 minutes ago, Masers said:

No...I didn’t have that. I just had the textbook and workbook. It was first grade, so obviously I knew how to do it the old-school way, but I didn’t know how to teach it the “Singapore way”. I didn’t even realize there was a home instructor’s guide. Thanks—might be worth a re-look after all! 😉

The HIG is necessary to teach the Singapore way.  They are very big on mental math strategies and bar models for solving word problems and without the HIG I would never have known how to teach that way.  

[Masers]

7 minutes ago, kristin0713 said:

The HIG is necessary to teach the Singapore way.  They are very big on mental math strategies and bar models for solving word problems and without the HIG I would never have known how to teach that way.  

Well, that makes me feel better about being totally lost! 😝 

[Coco_Clark]

 You are describing a program that is rigorous and challenging ideally to an advanced standard BUT you don't want your kids to put in lots of work, time, or be frustrated, and you don't want to put in a lot of time or prep as a teacher.  

In my 8 years of experience teaching grammar stage math...no, that doesn't exist. Not for your average child and your average teacher.

Rigorous math will sometimes be frusterating. It doesn't mean it's not working, it just means they are working on their problem solving muscles and tolerance.

Kids under 9/10 will not consistently be able to work new material without a parent nearby. That doesn't mean it's not working, it means they are little.

And math is almost always time consuming. More so than any other subject.

So you may need to prioritize.

If you are willing to give on parent time, but want rigor and "fun/interesting/short lessons", I say go with Right Start. You need to be there but it won't take over 30 minutes. Run it 4 days a week for each child, and let them play math games online the 4th.  Now you have an hour 3x a week and 30 minutes the other 2.

If you are willing to give on "fun/interesting/short" but you want rigor and independence go with Math Mammoth.  It's completely self taught to the child and by far the most independant I've used of easily a dozen programs. It's not as hard as you think, and if lessons are too long you can assign every other. 

If you are willing to give on rigor but want "fun/interesting/short" and independence stick with what you are using.  They can begin rigorous math later, when you are at a different place.  There is not a large family among us that hasn't had a light season due to baby.  

All three of those programs work great for non confident moms.  And I love the suggestion above about working something by yourself.  For years I did khan academy over the summer break.  I could do a school year in 4-5 weeks.  I had to start in 4tg grade!!!  But Ivd made it up through Geometry now and will do Alg 2 this summer!

Edited January 24, 2021 by Coco_Clark

[wendyroo]

In your shoes I would do Math Mammoth. In almost exactly your shoes, I did do Math Mammoth.

My three older boys all have special needs with severe emotional volatility. They were going to be frustrated, sometimes violently so, by any math that made them think. For us, the highest priority was consistency. They needed to know exactly what to expect from math every day - they might not like it, but having very clear, consistent expectations cut down tremendously on the battles. We also needed math that they could feasibly do on their own, not because they were required to do so, but if they decided to pitch a fit for an hour during math time, I could not be held hostage there by a program they could not work on without me.

I started my oldest in Singapore. I LOVE that program, but before long it was just too much. My oldest was in 1st, and then I had a 4 year old, a 2 year old and a newborn. With Singapore I had to juggle a textbook, a workbook, a home instructor's' guide, and the challenging word problem book (because my son needed the rigor). I decided I had to switch before my second son started kindergarten.

I bought PDFs of all the grades of Math Mammoth on Homeschool Buyers Co-op (Math Mammoth is cheap!) and I have used them with each child ever since. No, they are not particularly fun, but they are rigorous and independent and can be short.

Everything is included in one "worktext" - the teaching, the practice, the word problems, the mental math, and the review. The lessons are written to the student...not that that means that I don't read over it with them, but I don't have to "teach" them, just make sure that they take the time to read carefully and then check their understanding. For most kids there are WAY too many practice problems, but that can be viewed as a feature rather than a bug. Typically, my kids only do about half the problems. If I check those, and they clearly did not understand the lesson, then we re-read the teaching box the next day and tackle the other half of the problems.

The pages are dense, perhaps a bit cluttered, and very much "worksheets". My older kids are all used to it by now. My 5 year old still gets overwhelmed occasionally, and I will simply cover the sections of the page she is not working on right then with big post it notes. For a while with one kiddo, we were physically folding the pages down the middle so he would only see the left-hand side that he had to do.

Math Mammoth really can be done relatively quickly, especially at the earlier grades. For us, that means choosing shorter lessons on more days. We do math 6 days a week, more or less year round. My kindergartener, who is working in MM1, works for 10 minutes a day. My 7 year old, in MM 4, works for 15-20 minutes a day. My 9 year old, who just finished MM6, worked for 20-30 minutes a day. Doing about half the problems (but all of the word problems), they easily complete more than a year of Math Mammoth each calendar year.

One word of warning: Math Mammoth 4 is hard...IMO the "sloggiest" of the levels. All the levels are rigorous and conceptual, but level 4 just contains a lot of new material that can be overwhelming. In your shoes, I would have your 3rd grader take the placement test and start him at a level where he is very comfortable with the concepts being taught so that he can adapt to the more challenging learning.

One other recommendation. Along with Math Mammoth we use a couple fun math resources. My kids really like the Star Wars math workbooks, and they are quite rigorous and conceptual while still being very fun and themed. My kids also adore Prodigy math which is a fun, online, free adventure game that involves lots of math practice (but no teaching).

[R828]

Since I own RIghtstart, Math Mammoth and TGTB math, I’ll take a stab at this for you.

Rightstart:

I highly recommend RS B for your 1st grader. If you don’t feel confident as a math teacher, I think RS will help deepen your understanding of math too. It might be harder for your 4th grader to jump into Rightstart though not impossible. But the earlier RS grades are definitely more impressive than the latter ones. B especially is just the best! 

I don’t think it’s any more parent intensive than most other elementary math programs, especially since it’s totally scripted and open and go. It is so conceptual and I love the emphasis on mental math. It will give her a great foundation and if needed you can switch to something with less moving parts down the road.  You could do just the lessons, minus the games 4 days a week and save the games for the 5th day. I love the foundation Rightstart has given my DD, though honestly I’m not crazy about their games. (Except for Corners which is awesome!) Most of them are just drill disguised as games and DD wasn’t a fan. I find it more efficient and painless to just verbally drill whatever topic the games will be covering.

Math Mammoth:

If you want something that is straightforward and will get done with minimal fuss, I would go with Math Mammoth. We only use it as a supplement but I’ve been really impressed with how thoroughly it teaches. I love it for seasons of life when you just can’t devote as much time to school. If not for the cluttered layout, it would be close to my ideal math curriculum. We use it on a tablet and it’s really convenient. The price is very affordable too. I think on group buys it goes as low as $80 for grades 1 to 6. 

TGTB:

If you want something that is visually appealing, fun and interesting I don’t think TGTB can be beat. I only got this a couple of weeks ago, when they were on sale, so I don’t have a lot of experience with it. But I’ve looked through it quite deeply and I think it’s definitely on grade level. I didn't have high expectations when I bought it but I’ve been pleasantly surprised by the teaching. I actually preferred the way TGTB addressed rounding to RIghtstart D’s no explicit instruction, discovery approach. That said it does look at least as time intensive as RS. It is much prettier and with more interesting games so that might make it more appealing to your kids. I’ve been wanting math to feel more fresh and exciting so pulling activities and pretty worksheets from TGTB is working great for us, but if I was going to use it as designed, it seems to have a smidge too much fluff. It’s very pretty fluff though. Lol.  But for about the same time investment, I think I prefer RS. 

Edited January 25, 2021 by R828

[Masers]

3 hours ago, Coco_Clark said:

 You are describing a program that is rigorous and challenging ideally to an advanced standard BUT you don't want your kids to put in lots of work, time, or be frustrated, and you don't want to put in a lot of time or prep as a teacher.  

In my 8 years of experience teaching grammar stage math...no, that doesn't exist. Not for your average child and your average teacher.

Rigorous math will sometimes be frusterating. It doesn't mean it's not working, it just means they are working on their problem solving muscles and tolerance.

Kids under 9/10 will not consistently be able to work new material without a parent nearby. That doesn't mean it's not working, it means they are little.

And math is almost always time consuming. More so than any other subject.

So you may need to prioritize.

If you are willing to give on parent time, but want rigor and "fun/interesting/short lessons", I say go with Right Start. You need to be there but it won't take over 30 minutes. Run it 4 days a week for each child, and let them play math games online the 4th.  Now you have an hour 3x a week and 30 minutes the other 2.

If you are willing to give on "fun/interesting/short" but you want rigor and independence go with Math Mammoth.  It's completely self taught to the child and by far the most independant I've used of easily a dozen programs. It's not as hard as you think, and if lessons are too long you can assign every other. 

If you are willing to give on rigor but want "fun/interesting/short" and independence stick with what you are using.  They can begin rigorous math later, when you are at a different place.  There is not a large family among us that hasn't had a light season due to baby.  

All three of those programs work great for non confident moms.  And I love the suggestion above about working something by yourself.  For years I did khan academy over the summer break.  I could do a school year in 4-5 weeks.  I had to start in 4tg grade!!!  But Ivd made it up through Geometry now and will do Alg 2 this summer!

Thank you so much!! That was super helpful to see if broken down and laid out like that. I knew that I was asking for too much (“I want my kids to be math geniuses, but I don’t want any of us to have to do any work. 😝), but I’m glad to see some good options by priority. And me going through khan academy is a great idea!! I think I will do that! 

[Not_a_Number]

5 minutes ago, R828 said:

 I actually preferred the way TGTB addressed rounding to RIghtstart D’s no explicit instruction, discovery approach.

I personally like discovery approaches to just about everything... what did you like better about the TGTB teaching? 😄 

[Not_a_Number]

Just now, Masers said:

And me going through khan academy is a great idea!! I think I will do that! 

Khan Academy is still pretty darn procedural. I'd really start at the beginning with a conceptual curriculum, if I were you. 

[Masers]

1 hour ago, wendyroo said:

In your shoes I would do Math Mammoth. In almost exactly your shoes, I did do Math Mammoth.

My three older boys all have special needs with severe emotional volatility. They were going to be frustrated, sometimes violently so, by any math that made them think. For us, the highest priority was consistency. They needed to know exactly what to expect from math every day - they might not like it, but having very clear, consistent expectations cut down tremendously on the battles. We also needed math that they could feasibly do on their own, not because they were required to do so, but if they decided to pitch a fit for an hour during math time, I could not be held hostage there by a program they could not work on without me.

I started my oldest in Singapore. I LOVE that program, but before long it was just too much. My oldest was in 1st, and then I had a 4 year old, a 2 year old and a newborn. With Singapore I had to juggle a textbook, a workbook, a home instructor's' guide, and the challenging word problem book (because my son needed the rigor). I decided I had to switch before my second son started kindergarten.

I bought PDFs of all the grades of Math Mammoth on Homeschool Buyers Co-op (Math Mammoth is cheap!) and I have used them with each child ever since. No, they are not particularly fun, but they are rigorous and independent and can be short.

Everything is included in one "worktext" - the teaching, the practice, the word problems, the mental math, and the review. The lessons are written to the student...not that that means that I don't read over it with them, but I don't have to "teach" them, just make sure that they take the time to read carefully and then check their understanding. For most kids there are WAY too many practice problems, but that can be viewed as a feature rather than a bug. Typically, my kids only do about half the problems. If I check those, and they clearly did not understand the lesson, then we re-read the teaching box the next day and tackle the other half of the problems.

The pages are dense, perhaps a bit cluttered, and very much "worksheets". My older kids are all used to it by now. My 5 year old still gets overwhelmed occasionally, and I will simply cover the sections of the page she is not working on right then with big post it notes. For a while with one kiddo, we were physically folding the pages down the middle so he would only see the left-hand side that he had to do.

Math Mammoth really can be done relatively quickly, especially at the earlier grades. For us, that means choosing shorter lessons on more days. We do math 6 days a week, more or less year round. My kindergartener, who is working in MM1, works for 10 minutes a day. My 7 year old, in MM 4, works for 15-20 minutes a day. My 9 year old, who just finished MM6, worked for 20-30 minutes a day. Doing about half the problems (but all of the word problems), they easily complete more than a year of Math Mammoth each calendar year.

One word of warning: Math Mammoth 4 is hard...IMO the "sloggiest" of the levels. All the levels are rigorous and conceptual, but level 4 just contains a lot of new material that can be overwhelming. In your shoes, I would have your 3rd grader take the placement test and start him at a level where he is very comfortable with the concepts being taught so that he can adapt to the more challenging learning.

One other recommendation. Along with Math Mammoth we use a couple fun math resources. My kids really like the Star Wars math workbooks, and they are quite rigorous and conceptual while still being very fun and themed. My kids also adore Prodigy math which is a fun, online, free adventure game that involves lots of math practice (but no teaching).

Wow! Thanks for writing all that out...soooo helpful!! Sounds like a good possibility, too! So much to think about. And the fun resources definitely sound like things my kids would enjoy. Thanks again!

[Masers]

19 minutes ago, R828 said:

Since I own RIghtstart, Math Mammoth and TGTB math, I’ll take a stab at this for you.

Rightstart: I highly recommend RS B for your 1st grader. It might be harder for your 4th grader to jump into Rightstart though. I don’t think it’s any more parent intensive than most other elementary math programs, especially since it’s totally scripted and open and go. It is so conceptual and I love the emphasis on mental math. It will give her a great foundation and if needed you can switch to something with less moving parts down the road.  You could do just the lessons, minus the games 4 days a week and save the games for the 5th day. I love the foundation Rightstart has given my DD, though honestly I’m not crazy about their games. (Except for Corners which is awesome!) Most of them are just drill disguised as games and DD wasn’t a fan. I find it more efficient and painless to just verbally drill whatever topic the games will be covering.

Math Mammoth: If you want something that is straightforward and will get done with minimal fuss, I would go with Math Mammoth. We only use it as a supplement but I’ve been really impressed with how thoroughly it teaches. I love it for seasons of life when you just can’t devote as much time to school. If not for the cluttered layout, it would be close to my ideal math curriculum. We use it on a tablet and it’s really convenient. The price is very affordable too. I think on group buys it goes as low as $80 for grades 1 to 6. 

TGTB: If you want something that is visually appealing, fun and interesting I don’t think TGTB can be beat. I only got this a couple of weeks ago, when they were on sale, so I don’t have a lot of experience with it. But I’ve looked through it quite deeply and I think it’s definitely on grade level. I didn't have high expectations when I bought it but I’ve been pleasantly surprised by the teaching. I actually preferred the way TGTB addressed rounding to RIghtstart D’s no explicit instruction, discovery approach. That said it does look at least as time intensive as RS. It is much prettier and with more interesting games so that might make it more appealing to your kids. I’ve been wanting math to feel more fresh and exciting so pulling activities and pretty worksheets from TGTB is working great for us, but if I was going to use it as designed, it seems to have a smidge too much fluff. It’s very pretty fluff though. Lol.  But for about the same time investment, I think I prefer RS. 

Yaaaay! I loved seeing a comparison of all three programs. Thanks a ton!! Although now I feel like throwing TGTB back into the mix! Lol.

[Masers]

14 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

Khan Academy is still pretty darn procedural. I'd really start at the beginning with a conceptual curriculum, if I were you. 

Anything free online that I could work through? 

[R828]

 

3 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

I personally like discovery approaches to just about everything... what did you like better about the TGTB teaching? 😄 

Haha, I like the discovery method too. It definitely helps get to a deeper understanding. But I think a good lesson should give you sort of jumping off points to discuss strategies and why things work the way they do too. I’m a confident enough math teacher that I can do it myself but I was surprised because RS is usually so good at explaining things while still making the kids really think. For rounding there was no explanation just a pretty long (by RS standards) worksheet. 

DD could round to the nearest 10 and 100 without a second thought but rounding to the nearest 1000 was painful. She literally subtracted each number to figure out which one was closer. She got them right but it surprised me that she couldn’t just see the pattern after doing 10 problems the loooong way. And it surprised me that RS didn’t expect that it may not be obvious to all kids and include at least some instruction. 

[Eilonwy]

4 hours ago, Masers said:

I’m beginning to think I should just outsource math to my much more mathematically inclined husband. (He works a lot and is only home in the evenings, which are already super busy and stressful, and my son is *done* with work by then, so I feel like we’d be setting ourselves up for failure with that schedule

We tried this in my household (I did the math after work instead of my husband doing it along with the other subjects during the day, since I am more enthusiastic about math than he is). We got behind schedule a lot because the kids were tired or I was busy.  So I think your instincts are right about this in my experience.  But I think you can learn all the material you need to!

[Not_a_Number]

Just now, Masers said:

Anything free online that I could work through? 

Hmmmm, I'm not sure. But you really could get something like Math Mammoth and work through that. That wouldn't set you back that much. 

[Masers]

9 minutes ago, Eilonwy said:

We tried this in my household (I did the math after work instead of my husband doing it along with the other subjects during the day, since I am more enthusiastic about math than he is). We got behind schedule a lot because the kids were tired or I was busy.  So I think your instincts are right about this in my experience.  But I think you can learn all the material you need to!

Thanks for your vote of confidence! 😊

[Not_a_Number]

Just now, Masers said:

Thanks for your vote of confidence! 😊

One thing I was thinking of with respect to your husband... could he do SOME of the math on the weekends or something, just to make sure you're staying on course? Or would the kids rebel if they had some math on the weekend and maybe a break from math during the week?