DE and PS grades

[Roadrunner]

I want to ask out of curiosity. My child doesn’t have any coursework from PS and whatever DE courses he will have, we plan on fully disclosing. 
Having said that I ran into this question in one of the Facebook groups and the advice given to homeschoolers was no, you don’t have to disclose you have taken DE courses or PS courses on your transcript when you apply to colleges and no you don’t need to basically even mention you took college course anywhere. I always believed that public school transcripts and DE transcripts had to be disclosed. I was puzzled at the response, so just curious, what do you guys think? 

[Lori D.]

Well, first, consider the source (lol) -- FB is often a lot of clueless people (mis)leading the gullible with opinions rather than facts, and neither the clueless nor the gullible are using their online time to do the wise thing, which is to research what are the real policies at real colleges. Especially with so many people suddenly switching to homeschooling due to the pandemic, there is going to be a lot of lack of information and a lot of misinformation going around right now. 😢

In answer to your question:
When applying to a college, you must submit transcripts from ALL schools at which the student was *registered*. Failure to do so risks very serious possible consequences, such as being denied admission to a future college, or, if it comes out after admission, there is the possibility of expulsion, or stripping of scholarships (or required to repay scholarships), or possibly even stripping of a diploma. Failing to provide all transcripts looks like trying to "hide" past poor grades, or maybe trying to "hide" previous college credits to manipulate incoming college status (freshman vs. transfer student). That is why failure to provide all transcripts has potentially very serious consequences.

So yes, because the student was *registered* at a college, which has a registrar who administrates the credits and transcripts -- AND because the credits are earned as part of the permanent college record -- DE requires the student to send an official transcript from each school where DE was taken. Even if it was just 1 course, and even if the student withdrew partway through and did not complete any DE credits. There is a record in the school's registrar's office of that student attending that school.

As far as public school: if the student was registered at the public school (even if just for a semester) AND the public school was administrating the student's transcript, then yes, that transcript must be submitted. However, if the public school permitted the student to take one, or a few, individual classes AND the PARENT (NOT the public school) was the administrator of the credits and transcript, then there is no need to send a public school transcript, because the public school will not have records for the student.

Transcripts do NOT need to be sent from online course providers, as the parent is the administrator and record keeper in those cases.

Edited January 22, 2021 by Lori D.

[Kassia]

@Lori D.explained it perfectly (as always).  🙂

[Roadrunner]

@Lori D.oh boy. The group is a massive one with  30k members. This lady recorded the message with this info. I won’t wade into this. I won’t. 😢😢

Thank you Lori. That’s what I though as well. 
Its the college advice that had me raising my eyebrows. 

Edited January 22, 2021 by Roadrunner

[Lori D.]

People can research their individual universities for the policies about submitting DE and PS transcripts, but In case it helps, here are 2 quotations from general/national sources about DE requires the student to send an official transcript from the school where the DE was earned:


"When high school students simultaneously take college courses through a college or university, this is known as dual enrollment... You must still send official transcripts from your high school(s) and any college(s) you attended"
-- instructions on the support website for the Common App, the college application service for 900+ colleges
 

"College credit must be properly documented. Today more students are taking college courses while in high school, such as Dual Credit or Advanced Placement (AP).  'Students need to have official transcripts from the college granting the credits...' [quotation from Dr. Brett Morris, Executive Director for Enrollment Management at Eastern Kentucky University]" 
-- from the article "10 Things Every High School Counselor Should Tell Their Students About Transcripts" on the website of Parchment, a digital credentials service

__________________________________

And information from Lee Binz, the homeschool expert in transcripts and record keeping:

"There are many forms that parents and teens complete along with the application... You must arrange for the following information to be sent directly to the college where you are applying, and there may be a fee for each one:
• SAT scores
• ACT scores
• AP scores
• SAT Subject Tests scores
• CLEP scores
• Transcripts from any high schools
• Dual enrollment transcript from community college
• Transcripts from any universities
• Letters of recommendation
• FAFSA - complete forms starting October 1
• CSS Profile if requested"
-- from her website article: "What to Submit with Your College Application"


"Send all transcripts to the college for admission. When your child is applying for college, they will need all transcripts from all schools sent directly to the college. Your homeschool transcript provides the summary of every educational experience... They can use your transcript as a checklist, to make sure they have received information from the other schools. Public and private high schools must send their official transcripts directly to the college, not through you. Don't attach a public school transcript to your homeschool transcript. Simply include the information in your homeschool transcript. Public schools will send transcripts directly to the college where your child is applying."
-- from her website article: "Putting Public School Classes on Your Homeschool Transcript"


"Official Grades. Any class your student takes at a public or private school (including college) should be recorded exactly as it appears on the transcript from that school... if your child takes a course from an accredited school, you must report these grades to any college your child applies, whether you like the grade or not! If your child has withdrawn from a public or private high school, these grades should be included on your homeschool transcript as well, since they are a part of your child’s high school record." 
--  from her website article: "Sending Senior Year Transcripts to Colleges"

 

 

 

Edited January 22, 2021 by Lori D.

[RootAnn]

@Lori D. The "registered" part of your post is interesting. I wonder how that works for someplace like Arizona State (ASU) that has online courses where you apply for credit after you pass the class. Yet, I think ASU considers the students as registered? Or do they only count them when the students pay to have the course be credit-granting? I am sure many students don't finish the ASU online (free) courses.... So, would there even be a record? Definitely not a transcript (since you have to pay for the class to be put on the transcript).

[mom2scouts]

I know exactly where you saw this. I was shaking my head at the advice too. I think colleges would think you were hiding information if you didn't provide it, especially if the grades were poor. This woman also sends out emails and I got one yesterday where she talked about "experts" who are just trying to sell you something. It was obvious she was talking about Lee Binz, which really annoyed me because Lee Binz has provided me more useful FREE information about homeschooling high school than anyone else. 

[Lori D.]

3 hours ago, RootAnn said:

@Lori D. The "registered" part of your post is interesting. I wonder how that works for someplace like Arizona State (ASU) that has online courses where you apply for credit after you pass the class. Yet, I think ASU considers the students as registered? Or do they only count them when the students pay to have the course be credit-granting? I am sure many students don't finish the ASU online (free) courses.... So, would there even be a record? Definitely not a transcript (since you have to pay for the class to be put on the transcript).

 "Registered" is not a word I've seen used as the official/legal term. 😉  I just used the word "registered" to connect to "registrar" -- the office that keeps and manages student records. And mostly that was to help differentiate PS classes where the *school* is responsible for overseeing the student's records/transcript (i.e., is the registrar), vs. the option in some areas where the public school allows a homeschool student to join a class or two, while the *parent* continues to oversee the student's records/transcript (i.e., is the registrar).

That puts your explanation of the ASU program in a very interesting "neither fish nor fowl" sort of position, and I wonder right alongside you as to how exactly that works.

I am not familiar with ASU's online program of granting credit after passing the course / only paying for the class to be put on the transcript after the fact -- JMO, but ASU's sort of approach almost feels "diploma mill-ish", somehow. 😉 


And -- some backstory to ASU's online program... 

So, ASU is located in the Phoenix valley and is 1 of 3 state public (not-for-profit) universities in AZ, with the other 2 universities located in other cities, so while there is some rivalry, there are enough students to go around. Grand Canyon University originally was a very small, Christian LAC also located in the Phoenix Valley, so never competition to ASU -- until the early 2000s when GCU was about to go under financially and switched to for-profit status and opened up a hugely successful online program. At this point ASU made loud noises about how awful online college programs were. GCU went on to gain quite a bit of endowment $$, and combined that with the profits for the online program into rebuilding and greatly expanding the physical campus. Then they set about getting established as a Division I school for the half dozen sports they offer. Now ASU was really screaming about GCU being "inferior", but really, it was because ASU finally had another school competition for their students and dollars. 😉 GCU then set about jumping the hoops to return from for-profit to not-for-profit status (which they successful did several years ago), and at that point ASU suddenly brought out their own online program to compete with GCU, by apparently making their program one in which you only pay if you pass...

Having seen all of this go down over the past 15 years, I really have to wonder about both the quality of ASU's online program, but also the somewhat slippery backdoor way of getting more students into their online program... Are their online credits transferrable to/accepted by other schools? How is an all-online diploma through their program viewed? How does this work legally to not be the same thing as a for-profit school? ... Just musing out loud... 😉 

Edited January 22, 2021 by Lori D.

[RootAnn]

I should point out I was musing about the "earned admission" side of ASU and that I don't know much about it. I think it is similar to the MOOC  (?) sites where you can pay afterwards to get a certificate for credit (or something).

Thanks for the fascinating history lesson, @Lori D.! :)

[Farrar]

I would think if a student was doing ASU Digital, then they must disclose (and agreed totally with Lori about the need to disclose generally). But if the student was doing an ASU earned admission credit... I think maybe they don't. The credit only exists if you complete the program. You're not really enrolled in anything. You've paid for the material and the ability to have someone review that you did the work and receive the credit.

I'm just... what group was this anyway? If it was Paying for College, I swear. That bleeping group is so full of misinformation and they actively delete correct information sometimes - especially if it links to useful free resources because that would compete with their ability to sell. I have a college bound homeschool parents group on FB and we never delete stuff and only marginally promote ourselves. I'm just aghast at some of the stuff I've seen on a few other groups though.

[Roadrunner]

@Farrarit was It’s Not Hard to Homeschool High School. The advice about PS classes pans out. It’s the DE stuff that super iffy. 

[8filltheheart]

Ask them what is the purpose of  the National Student Clearinghouse. U's can easily verify if a student has been enrolled in schools not reported, including high schools. Not reporting, as Lori stated, is a serious ethical violation.

[MagistraKennedy]

On 1/22/2021 at 11:35 PM, Roadrunner said:

@Farrarit was It’s Not Hard to Homeschool High School. The advice about PS classes pans out. It’s the DE stuff that super iffy. 

Honestly --- many times, if DE or CLEP testing comes up in discussion, I feel like she poo-poos it. 

[LAS in LA]

Some DE transcripts can’t be submitted with the application because the student hasn’t completed the courses yet. I don’t recall being asked for these on the Common App. When do colleges expect to receive DE transcripts? 

[Farrar]

12 hours ago, LAS in LA said:

Some DE transcripts can’t be submitted with the application because the student hasn’t completed the courses yet. I don’t recall being asked for these on the Common App. When do colleges expect to receive DE transcripts? 

They expect to see what students are taking, both in high school and if they're doing outside classes. They'd expect to see a fall transcript when you send your mid-year report. Usually, you'd just include them on your transcript as dual credit/enrolled classes so they'd be aware of them from the start. I know that for various reasons, some people do not list college courses taken in high school on the high school transcript if they do not additionally satisfy high school requirements. So if you were doing that and therefore the senior year spring classes are something the college is unaware of, then I'd have the student contact admissions and ask how they'd like it handled.

[EKS]

Every college my sons applied to specifically asked to see transcripts for any classes taken at real schools, which included public and private high schools as well as DE at the local college.  This meant that I put those classes on my transcript and I had transcripts sent directly from the various institutions--sometimes twice.

[madteaparty]

On 1/23/2021 at 4:04 AM, 8filltheheart said:

Ask them what is the purpose of  the National Student Clearinghouse. U's can easily verify if a student has been enrolled in schools not reported, including high schools. Not reporting, as Lori stated, is a serious ethical violation.

I know every college class needs reported, but my son has not been “enrolled” or “matriculated” in any of the four colleges he has taken classes in. He has been (obviously) registered for the class, like Lori said

smh at the advice OP posted about...

[LAS in LA]

So I called admissions offices today. Two of them (private; very selective universities) requested the cc transcript right away. One university (state, not selective) said it wasn't needed unless DS is accepted and enrolls. 🙂