Smack me a little on this typing thing

[PeterPan]

So after multiple failed attempts other ways, I've been teaching ds *very tediously* to touch type. We're using the Dvorak keyboarding layout, which is actually working for him. I've been introducing one letter at a time and I created worksheets for the typing where we type 6 rows (single letter space, repeat across, 2 letters repeat, 3 letters, repeat, then 4/5/6). Then when he has that letter DOWN, we do dictation using super simple (cvc, cvcc, ccvcc) words. 

But the problem is, I'm kinda whacking my head here. After all this effort to get him to be able to type SOMETHING, you realize it's STILL not functional? He can't SPELL. So we can go back and do that, fine. I can go through every word/phrase/sentence and we can do the dictation, fine. But even then, that's not typing his THOUGHTS.

I don't know. I'm just starting to wonder why I bother. He's 12 and he can't write legibly functionally, can't type to get his thoughts out, has such scattered thoughts it wouldn't matter if he did. 

I just don't see where this is going and how this gets functional. And I guess I'll just throw this out to the UNIVERSE so a year or two or three from now we'll laugh and say SEE when you thought it wouldn't work, you were WRONG! But right now, looking at him at 12 ½, it's looking pretty dark. I see diddly functional and it seems like nothing I do makes any difference. The harder I plow, the more I try to get in and deal with stuff so he can do things, the less he does. I don't win. It's never like I did something and oh WOW. It's more like I did something and oh look, small skill that still doesn't get you anywhere, still not functional. 

I'm doing the VMI workbook, and it's going REALLY well. He's actually clicking with it and you can see the lightbulbs coming on, the circuits being made. But do you REALLY THINK he's gonna be able to WRITE when I'm done with this? Fat chance. I'll try, but I'm just saying. 

So that's all. It seems like nothing I do makes any difference and the IEP team is gonna see this and croak. Maybe that's my real worry, that time is running out. If I had been so brilliant when he was 7, it might have been better.

[Terabith]

I know it's different, but Cat can.....laboriously type.  She knows where all the keys are located, but she cannot spell.  Spellcheck and word prediction software have her legible, but I don't think she's ever going to be able to like type something and turn it in without an editor.  

Does he have any motivation to communicate in written form with anyone?  Or to do his own internet searches?  Cat's written communication made more progress with six months of a smart phone and people to text than from three years of Wilson tutoring.  She uses discord and plays role playing games online.  Is there any way to get him motivated to communicate with people?  

[PeterPan]

1 hour ago, Terabith said:

laboriously type.

Yup, that's what I'm realizing. That's what this is going to look like, sigh. 

1 hour ago, Terabith said:

Does he have any motivation to communicate in written form with anyone?

We got him set up with messages so that he can text from his school work computer. He texts his father, aunt, me, and he can do really basic things with it. Like he'll type a single letter reply or more commonly use Siri/dictation to give a better reply.

1 hour ago, Terabith said:

Cat's written communication made more progress with six months of a smart phone and people to text than from three years of Wilson tutoring. 

This makes sense. I guess I had naively assumed he would have astonishingly great narrative language by now and loads to say. Instead, well let's just say it's why he still has a thick IEP. 

But you're right, that's where it's at. And yeah I figure if we don't do dictation, it's completely lost on him and not usable. 

I think we have a long road to hoe.

[Lecka]

He has functional ability to match his current needs through typing and dictation.

That is a good thing!

I think it’s something where — if he needs more later, he can do more later.  
 

It’s okay!  Typing is really hard.  Especially for someone who has had any kind of motor planning issues.  
 

 

[Lecka]

Can he search for things on YouTube?  That is a pretty functional skill here.  My son can do it.  He doesn’t need to type to do it.  (Edit:  he slides a cursor over a keyboard seen on the tv screen — it is pretty forgiving — bc he does it using a video game remote.)

With my older son he *needed* to be doing written output.  He had a mismatch between what he needed and what he could do.

If there is not a mismatch — things are a lot more okay.

I think look around at what his functional needs are right now and those are timely and meaningful.  
 

If he can text and meet his own needs for typing — that is good for now 🙂

 

 

Edited January 22, 2021 by Lecka

[PeterPan]

1 hour ago, Lecka said:

Can he search for things on YouTube?  That is a pretty functional skill here.  My son can do it.  He doesn’t need to type to do it.  (Edit:  he slides a cursor over a keyboard seen on the tv screen — it is pretty forgiving — bc he does it using a video game remote.)

With my older son he *needed* to be doing written output.  He had a mismatch between what he needed and what he could do.

If there is not a mismatch — things are a lot more okay.

I think look around at what his functional needs are right now and those are timely and meaningful.  
 

If he can text and meet his own needs for typing — that is good for now 🙂

 

 

Yeah, he's super functional, a total pro at youtube, lol. He also types (using a screen) on the Switch to name horses for Zelda, etc. 

What I'd *like* him to be able to do is respond to a writing prompt or do some independent writing. But I'm realizing it's not going to come together as easily as all that. Even doing it with dictation wasn't going well. But that's showing one the task wasn't great for him (not set up well with vocabulary, visualization, having the language in his head) and that there are more steps.

I'd like him to be able to spell well enough to edit the typing the dictation puts on the screen. That to me would be a long term goal. 

I keep think about about Terabith's comment that it's still "laborious." I think that is definitely the crux of it. And maybe I'm unrealistic, but that's how it seems. However he's PROUD of his ability to focus for a bit and do it. We've kept the chunks teeny tiny to keep his stress low. We would type one line, go play nintendo, type another line, play nintendo and so on. And he can type fluently those basic words from dictation with moderate frustration. You can see a breakdown where his fingers and brain get all disconnected as he gets tired. But his stamina is improving and seems to have some room to push. Like he can do 3 lines of typing (with the breaks) AND type maybe 12-15 short words from dictation without fritzing. Last night we did 6 lines plus a page of review (so 50% more) and he got worn out. But that shows I'm not at his ceiling for stamina. He is improving. 

My idea is to use the Barton content for dictation. I even have the supplemental readers, so we can stay at that really easy level and build typing fluency.  It just seems like we're gonna be here a long time. I try to be patient, but eventually time will run out and I'll have a kid who can't do things. 

I guess I'll conclude at that point it's not the end of the world and that we're fine anyway. I just don't know what that looks like, not able to type, not able to write, lol. But we'll see. I had vainly hoped that when I finished the VMI workbook (which we have maybe 10 sessions on, inching closer!) that he'd be able to do the cursive logic series I got. We'll see. That's my BIG DREAM. As long as I can get his VMI good enough that he can passably do it, that's my plan. I figure hey, why not.

He seems to need affirmation and praise with his VMI work. The logic is a little bad, because they use a grease marker (for the sensory input) and then ERASE the work! And he's sitting here like dude I just worked really hard and you're erasing it?? LOL So I take pictures. But it seems like verbal feedback is very important to him. He doesn't seem like he's really in a middle school "work independently" kind of place with his brain yet. And if you do the math (12-3=9) then that makes sense. He more functions like a 9 yo.

He's been kind of sweet lately. I can ply with him on the idea of not giving me a hard time, being nice to me, doing something simply to be KIND to his mother. And he can understand this and make a choice. So that has been a nice bump! I think it kind of lures me, like oh see how he's growing... And then you realizing that came but the rest didn't. But it is nice. It's the bright spot in a sea of things seemingly not working as well as I'd hoped.

Edited January 22, 2021 by PeterPan

[Lecka]

What are you doing for language lately?  Just curious.

 

[PeterPan]

2 hours ago, Lecka said:

What are you doing for language lately?  Just curious.

 

Oh snort, we have so many irons in the fire. We did the auditory processing eval, which is a total crock because what you're really saying is (no duh) he has a language disability. He learned language whole to parts and we worked on parts down to words. Now we're working on parts down to phonemes and even pitch using APD materials generated by SLPs. It's working, so spelling is finally clicking for him. Not like super genius level, but some recognition of it. This APD work has been very challenging for him and I could probably buy another system, once I get through this one, and not have it be a waste. 

We got mostly through what we had been doing for grammar (Linguisystems workbooks) so I've been taking him through a Fundamentals of Language workbook series, mostly gr2-6, collated by topic. It gets him lots of exposure to age typical language usage and tasks. He still has some holes with syntax, especially verb tenses, that I want to address. (subjunctive, past progressive, etc. etc.) 

Narrative language is on hold while we get language for feelings to get it going forward again. We've been plugging through the Interoception materials, doing really well with that. And somewhere in that process it FINALLY clicked in his mind that a sequence of pictures communicated a story! Not like we haven't been working on it for oh uh YEARS. So that gives me some room to go forward there.

Our IEP goal was writing numbers, but that bombed. I've been working through a VMI workbook ($75, ouch) from Therapro, hoping it would get him more able to write numbers functionally. I'd like to get him into the Cursive Logic workbook, but that is waiting for the VMI workbook too. You just can't do SO MUCH vmi type work in a day. It's really fatiguing for him.

We had the BJU reading and I sorta let that get side tracked. We've read through some National Geographic readers. It isn't his biggest problem right now. He gets through a book a night usually with audio and has been reading (by ear) Gordon Korman.

Got sidetracked on the 6 Traits Daily Writing, oops. I could get that out and finish what we were doing. I was trying to give our APD and VMI materials some focus. Also I need the typing to go well. So I was putting all the brain energy into that. By the time we do 3 lines, that was 20-30 minutes. It's not like oh a small thing. It's work, break, work, break. And the VMI we're doing 3 pages a day, which again is close to 40 minutes with the necessary breaks. 

What I really need is a medication that makes him not need BREAKS. That would be a miracle, lol. I'll tell you if that happens, lol.

I'm not motivated to *start* much right now, because we're getting ready to do more testing. We did the TNL and some other things last week and we'll be doing the CASL2, which apparently hits all kinds of metalinguistics and pragmatics and who knows what, each week through February. We have kind of a standing appointment and she's just gonna back out hours and see what she can get done. Then we have the ps SLP who will presumably want to do something to confirm for herself whatever the private SLP numbers say.

So even though I have a developmental window and could get excited to do some things, I need to work through this process. So ugh grunt work is what we're doing. Once the SLPs for private and ps are done, then we'll make some new leaps.

He just grew almost an inch and a half, measured him this morning. Apparently I was right thinking his brain had grown and that we have some room to do new things! It always happens this time of year.

The APD work improved his ability to crack jokes and do word play. It's pretty funny. He now sings and chortles a lot, making up ditties. He's even almost on tune sometimes. 

[PeterPan]

He has an astonishing ability to work, so I try to be very present in what we're really doing, like really doing what we're doing. So it's better not to spread us too thin but to REALLY DO what we're doing. So if we're gonna win on typing, we have to type. So some things get slighted and some things are more, to make sure that brain energy is really there to do it all the way. It also means I sometimes need to take a deep breath, because sometimes what isn't getting done will be done in short order when we finally get to it. 

[PeterPan]

He also does 4 hours a week with an SLP for reading and language skills btw. 

[prairiewindmomma]

Is there a reason you aren’t just doing something like a chrome extension for dictation?

My kid’s dyspraxia is so bad that it will always be laborious for him to type. You see it in the OT technology evals....accuracy and speed in writing v. typing v. dictation. We use a few extensions, including grammarly, to get by. It is completely workable and fine.

 

[Lecka]

Lots of progress!  I'm glad the interoception is going so well.

My son had his triennial review last year, and did the school psychologist part one week before schools closed.  He has never gotten the updated speech therapy testing.  But I think his goals are fine.  Recently he was doing:  words with more than one meaning, homophone pairs, following multi-step directions, some listening comprehension, and lots of articulation.  

At home he is reading out loud some each evening -- yes!  This has not been easy, but it's going well 🙂 I am reading him the Amulet series now -- he really likes it.  And he is reading out loud from Dragon Masters.  

He listens to an audiobook most nights, too.  

It is working better here, too, to just have one main focus.  I always feel like I should successfully loop and do more than one thing -- but it just works a lot better to have one main focus.  So it's reading for now.

With covid and what-not, I have not been too communicative with his school -- he is back in-person now.  As far as I know everything is going fine.  

He is in regular Art and FACS (home ec) right now.  His other classes are all with the same teacher (resource teacher) except math, with a different resource teacher. 

Two days ago my daughter stayed home sick, and he rode the bus home by himself.  I watched from across the street, and he did a good job watching and then crossing the street by himself.  Three cars were backed up behind the bus (while it was stopped letting kids off) and he waited for them to go before crossing.  I would not have watched from across the street if I wasn't pretty sure he would be fine 😉 But he was fine!  It's not a really busy street, so it's not hard at all to find a time to cross, but it's necessary to watch out for cars.  

[PeterPan]

2 hours ago, prairiewindmomma said:

Is there a reason you aren’t just doing something like a chrome extension for dictation?

My kid’s dyspraxia is so bad that it will always be laborious for him to type. You see it in the OT technology evals....accuracy and speed in writing v. typing v. dictation. We use a few extensions, including grammarly, to get by. It is completely workable and fine.

 

Whoa, an OT technology eval? I hadn't heard of this. We sorta gave up on OTs because nothing they did was either thought out or making a difference. But you're right, the school is supposed to eval him afresh for our 3 year renewals this spring. So what all is involved with a technology eval? How would I know if I've got someone who could do this? I've got funding to make that happen.

So ds does not technically have a diagnosis of global dyspraxia. Everything else, but not that, hahaha. But what I'm seeing is pretty astonishing. He really takes the cake on this. So yes, if some fresh evals would get my head on straight, that sounds good. I had just been working on the glib assuption that if I finally got him typing, it would somehow all WORK. 

We're on mac, so he knows how to turn on siri for dictation. He uses it, yes. It's a little crunchy, but he uses it. So we can do that. I just wasn't working that direction hard because I thought this would get us to a functional place. (insert fairy tale mutters)

[PeterPan]

2 hours ago, Lecka said:

His other classes are all with the same teacher (resource teacher) except math, with a different resource teacher. 

Yup, that's what they told us a year ago, that reality was even though his placement was inclusion in a mainstream classroom that he would spend 70% of his day in the resource room. There's just nothing he does that doesn't require modification.

2 hours ago, Lecka said:

He is in regular Art and FACS (home ec) right now. 

Perfect, lol. 

2 hours ago, Lecka said:

he rode the bus home by himself.

That's AMAZING!!! What a big accomplishment!!!

[PeterPan]

3 hours ago, prairiewindmomma said:

You see it in the OT technology evals.

I'm googling this. Is it also called an Assistive technology evaluation? I think I heard about this at OCALICON. They have people who specialize in it and can look at ALL the tech that could help him. Well THAT would be brilliant.

He has so much language that it's easy to miss just how much he struggles. He's so bright that you think oh this is just gonna come, snap! And then you're doing it and you're like wow, that's seriously not gonna get there and be functional. Sigh.

So I will look into this. I might be able to find someone in the big city who does AT stuff. That could be intriguing. Or compel the school to hit it. I think we're close. I mean, in my mind I'm there and cool with it all the way. But it's merging it with the educational goals, getting him fluent, etc. etc.

[prairiewindmomma]

Yes, it's an assistive technology evaluation.  It's actually been one of the more helpful things we've done along our SPED journey. 

A few thoughts:

1. It has to be the right match to the kid. Ds qualifies for a lot more tech than he is willing to use.  He also needed some support making the transition. It was a specific IEP goal last year, for him to really learn to use all of the features of a few specified techie things.

2. The environment in which the tech is used matters.  Ds has to be able to have his needs met both in the classroom and at home.....because kid has homework.  Likewise, in group projects, he needs to be able to participate.

3. Task---we did some specific task breakdowns where things are falling apart.  His SPED teacher this past term has been helping him figure out how to take Cornell notes on his laptop.  It's not necessarily intuitive to do that process in a Cornell note format, but it's a specific thing he was asked to do for class, so sometimes SPED goals can focus on things like being able to take lecture notes, or textbook notes or whatever.  In other words---this is an on-going, evolutionary process thing where sometimes the answer is to bring on more tech or software to meet specific needs.

4. Independence as a goal---kiddo is never going to be able to take handwritten notes with legibility at any type of functional speed. Like, we gave it a good decade of PT and OT and it just isn't in the cards.  So, what can we do so that he works independently---and start weaning off of all of that adult support that socially was ok in the elementary years and really isn't socially ok in the jr high and high school years.  Kid wants and needs to be independent in some areas, iykwim.  

[prairiewindmomma]

So, when ds started in public school, he was in resource room 50% of the time.

I think even the kids with very basic literacy who were on completely modified curricula (several grades below level) still had 1:1 laptops and a lot of other tech going on.  I don't know why I feel compelled to share that---except to say that I think public schools are actually ahead of most homeschoolers on the tech game.  At least that's my perception.  They push independence a bit more than homeschoolers because it's easier than providing manpower to scribe, and assignments are easily modified by individual when you use stuff like google templates. 

I honestly wish tech was talked about more in the homeschool world.  Living with a foot in each system is interesting.

[Lecka]

I think at the point that all the other students either have or are regularly using tech, there are two things.

One, are you going to withhold it from some kids?  That doesn’t seem like a good thing to do.

Two, kids need to learn to use it and probably need teachers to help them learn to use it.  
 

 

[PeterPan]

3 hours ago, prairiewindmomma said:

an assistive technology evaluation.

Who on the IEP team did this? Or was it private?

 

[Lecka]

Where I live it would be OT.

And as pp said — if use of the tech needs to be taught, that can be an IEP goal.

But it also needs to be a team decision because some things might actually be more or less practical or a better fit for various reasons.

For example — my son would not do anything where he would need to go in a carrel because he didn’t like to do that.  Another person might prefer that.  But that is something where the tech eval might show it could be good but there might be some reason people think it won’t be a good fit.  

It also might not be really expected at some ages for tech use to be totally independent and then that can be discussed too.  
 

They might also get feedback about a software program or something they know a future teacher likes, but the person doing the tech eval is from the district and doesn’t know all the ins and outs like that.  

[Lecka]

Bc sometimes they do teach some things the prior year so kids can already know how to do it the next year.  Sometimes a resource teacher in a meeting will bring that up bc they know that the next year it will help in the mainstream class.  

[prairiewindmomma]

50 minutes ago, PeterPan said:

Who on the IEP team did this? Or was it private?

 

Our district has an OT person who did the eval. Can’t remember if they have the title of assistive technologist officially.

[Lecka]

Ime this has been a person who goes to all different schools and can request $$$ systems or software programs that other people might not be allowed to request without going through this person.  
 

Ime it’s the same person for pre-school through high school and all levels.

 

I’m sure this depends on the size of the district!

 

My impression is you would not see this person if everything was going fine with current AT.

 

But if it’s something not as complex — it can just be the school OT.

My older son w/dysgraphia definitely did not need the district AT person.  The school OT could do it for him.  
 

I don’t think he even needed an actual eval as much as just deciding what would work for him.  Bc — it was just not that complex and nothing was going to be that expensive, either.

 

But I think it is the role of the OT and other people give input and other people may implement not necessarily OT.  

 

 

[Lecka]

Peter Pan — the recommendation could come back “dictation” and is there a problem with the current dictation?

Its not necessarily something where they do a lot if things are working.

If there’s a problem to solve they want to solve it.

But if you have something functional that’s working for you — I don’t know what you would want.

Do you know what I mean?

It could be good to have dictation down on the IEP so it’s known he is allowed to use it.  
 

Can he get on the dictation software by himself and use it by himself?  
 

I don’t think it’s going to be the kind of thing where they know a kid has had a lot of motor planning challenges and has struggled with solid teaching of typing, and they want to do a ton more typing.

Can he use a mouse?  Can he do basic computer things that he needs to do on his own?  
 

Like — a big thing that might come out of a big AT eval is for it to be official “this kid is allowed to use dictation software anytime anywhere and must be either allowed to talk or provided a quiet space.  All work must be provided in a format that works with the software or the kid must be taught how to do this and have the right software and equipment.”

 

That is a big deal, depending on how easy it is to make it happen in a classroom.

But it might be no big deal for you.  
 

Otoh — maybe they recommend some helpful software and that could be very worthwhile, or it could be something where you would just as soon use something else.  
 

They are also not going to want to waste time on things they think are non-functional.  If it would help you to be told an OT thinks something is non-functional, that could be good.

But if your heart is set on cursive and they don’t think it’s a good use of time — you might not want to hear that.  
 

You will be in March or so of 6th grade, looking at 7th grade — they will care about what is actually functional right now to use it to do other things, a lot more than wanting to do cursive for your own personal reasons.  

[prairiewindmomma]

Looked the person up—they officially have the title of district assistive technology specialist

[PeterPan]

1 hour ago, prairiewindmomma said:

Looked the person up—they officially have the title of district assistive technology specialist

https://ataem.org/at-basics  Turns out our state has guidance on how to do this. There is a pdf with categories, modules showing how to deal with each area, etc. I knew our county board had done some training on it. I just didn't realize I should be pursuing that term. I'm going to look through it, see what I can learn.

[Kanin]

On 1/22/2021 at 8:45 AM, PeterPan said:

He's been kind of sweet lately. I can ply with him on the idea of not giving me a hard time, being nice to me, doing something simply to be KIND to his mother. And he can understand this and make a choice. So that has been a nice bump! I think it kind of lures me, like oh see how he's growing... And then you realizing that came but the rest didn't. But it is nice. It's the bright spot in a sea of things seemingly not working as well as I'd hoped.

Well, this makes me happy for you both🙂 

[PeterPan]

Just going to dump some things here I'm finding. They might interest someone. 

https://www.bakersfield.com/opinion/polly-morrice-how-cursive-writing-helped-my-autistic-son/article_483f90b5-ba87-5c7b-9685-f4571f74f414.html  Opinion piece on the value of functional handwriting in autism in the age of tech

https://www.autism-society.org/stories/handwriting-and-the-autism-spectrum-notes-from-a-survivor/  Kate Gladstone on why handwriting still matters in the age of tech

http://www.handwritingthatworks.com  Kate Gladstone's research on what has been done and what works with handwriting instruction in autism. She sites research on using *arrowed* letters/numbers, dropping the verbal explanations completely to decrease working memory drain, and doing spaced recreation to improve visual memory.

https://www.baytreelearning.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/edd/2015/03/NumberReversals.pdf  A workbook (free) that uses the Beninger/Graham research and does exactly that, with arrowed numbers and spaced memory work. (less writing, more engagement)

https://www.therapro.com/Developing-Visual-Motor-Integration.html  To me, the attention to direction in motor planning and the spaced recreation in this workbook that we're using are very similar (basically precursors) to the numbered arrows and spaced recreation of Beninger. Since I'm seeing improvement using the workbook, there's no reason to think I *wouldn't* see improvement if we extended the strategy to numbers and possibly letters. 

Since my ds does not have functional handwriting (per Gladstone's categories) and since the research shows functional handwriting for most adults is a MIX of styles, it seems logical to go at it again, with the improved VMI in place, to see where he could get to. At the very least, I want him able to write numbers somewhat legibly and his name. He cannot fill out a repair slip for an appliance repair job if he cannot do this. These are very basic goals. It is completely absurd to say I should not work on handwriting with a dc who has a gifted IQ who cannot functionally sign his full name or write numbers.

None of the OTs have ever done anything for handwriting with him that was sequential, thought out, or intelligent. They've always done the typical write more, make it more fun, random grid drawing, random ideas. Instead i'm now doing something sequential, stepped, highly intentional, and I CAN SEE IMPROVEMENT. It's not my fault the therapy system is driven by whatever they can do for the cheapest amount across the most kids while billing at $100+ an hour. It's not my fault their stupid, nonevidence based methods didn't work. But it sure would be my fault if I didn't TRY to get this to a better place. And I think the evidence from these links is showing people with ASD don't appreciate it as adults looking back if they realize they have nonfunctional handwriting and nobody did anything about it. It matters to them and it might matter to my ds.

[prairiewindmomma]

Yeah, I think you should do both....handwriting and tech.

Medical intake forms and a legal signature were two things we focused on on the handwriting side.

[PeterPan]

18 hours ago, prairiewindmomma said:

So, when ds started in public school, he was in resource room 50% of the time.

I think even the kids with very basic literacy who were on completely modified curricula (several grades below level) still had 1:1 laptops and a lot of other tech going on.  I don't know why I feel compelled to share that---except to say that I think public schools are actually ahead of most homeschoolers on the tech game.  At least that's my perception.  They push independence a bit more than homeschoolers because it's easier than providing manpower to scribe, and assignments are easily modified by individual when you use stuff like google templates. 

I honestly wish tech was talked about more in the homeschool world.  Living with a foot in each system is interesting.

Can we go back to this a bit? So I have a windows laptop lying around, and I have a mac imac. I'm teaching him Dvorak, and he hasn't quite figured out that his keyboard ISN'T the same as other computers. He's still using the letters on the rearranged keys on occasion, so he's not yet ready to be thrown onto the unaltered pc lapto. It's not my plan to move him to that or a regular unaltered mac keyboard until he can completely touch type without looking at the labels and without stress. At that point it won't matter. Now it does.

But what software are you using? I could be working in either direction or both. I've seen a lot of names bandied around. My vision right now had been really basic--have a task, turn on dictation, accomplish it. However I know there are software things that do MORE. Do you have like a top 3 favs of things I should be looking at? 

I think what's going to happen, if I ask for the assistive tech eval, is they're going to say well he's not trying to do much or expected to do much so we don't need to. I could see a circle like that. And he is always contradictory, with big challenges and big potential at the same time. 

The other thing that has held him back with tech is that he gets flustered and struggled to problem solve. He can understand stuff, but if ANYTHING goes wrong he's completely flummoxed. Like in the old days when he didn't know the steps to wipe up a spill, only now it's more complex stuff. So I tried Google classroom with him, and it was so easy for him to get confused and lost and frustrated. It's just an example, but it happens with all kinds of things. But he's really bright at it when it's going well, lol. He changes his backgrounds in his Zoom sessions, which is pretty cute. 

I think maybe he functions a year or two behind your ds.

[kbutton]

19 hours ago, prairiewindmomma said:

Yes, it's an assistive technology evaluation.  It's actually been one of the more helpful things we've done along our SPED journey. 

A few thoughts:

1. It has to be the right match to the kid. Ds qualifies for a lot more tech than he is willing to use.  He also needed some support making the transition. It was a specific IEP goal last year, for him to really learn to use all of the features of a few specified techie things.

2. The environment in which the tech is used matters.  Ds has to be able to have his needs met both in the classroom and at home.....because kid has homework.  Likewise, in group projects, he needs to be able to participate.

3. Task---we did some specific task breakdowns where things are falling apart.  His SPED teacher this past term has been helping him figure out how to take Cornell notes on his laptop.  It's not necessarily intuitive to do that process in a Cornell note format, but it's a specific thing he was asked to do for class, so sometimes SPED goals can focus on things like being able to take lecture notes, or textbook notes or whatever.  In other words---this is an on-going, evolutionary process thing where sometimes the answer is to bring on more tech or software to meet specific needs.

4. Independence as a goal---kiddo is never going to be able to take handwritten notes with legibility at any type of functional speed. Like, we gave it a good decade of PT and OT and it just isn't in the cards.  So, what can we do so that he works independently---and start weaning off of all of that adult support that socially was ok in the elementary years and really isn't socially ok in the jr high and high school years.  Kid wants and needs to be independent in some areas, iykwim.  

Whoa, this could be a game changer for us. Our district is friendly to homeschoolers, and we flag for needing tech options, but no one has offered us one. I need to shake this tree.

[PeterPan]

Ok, I wrote my providers to see if they have an OT who specializes in assistive tech or someone else who does that. The person I'm writing has been pretty thoughtful so far on questions of evals, really getting us testing connections that made sense. We'll see what they can come up with.

[PeterPan]

33 minutes ago, kbutton said:

Whoa, this could be a game changer for us. Our district is friendly to homeschoolers, and we flag for needing tech options, but no one has offered us one. I need to shake this tree.

Bingo. I think they just make generic recommendations, move us on through, and figure it's the teacher's problem to sort out. But it makes sense that if you got someone who was REALLY INTO THIS, they'd have a lot in their mind. Even just some predictive experience would be nice at this point. I mean, it's pretty serious stuff when you're saying a person with a gifted IQ can't write. It's not cool. You don't just let that go with an oh well, and well enroll them because the ps is great is a ridiculous response too. 

So we'll see. I wrote my people. I have a feeling, as with all things, it's more than just what they should be doing and whether someone got so engaged with the topic that they went all the way to excellence. 

[prairiewindmomma]

So, what my kid uses is for his specific needs. 2E, gifted in English, can narrate historical or scientific summaries—-but language completely drops down when asked to type (it goes to simple sentences both in structure and vocab) and he simply doesn’t offer opinions or emotions or creative writing typed. He struggles even to narrate that, but can get there with support. So, the more the draw on his brain, the more we see output drop off. Input is completely fine. 
 

School has issued a chrome book. He uses voice in voice typing https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/voice-in-voice-typing/pjnefijmagpdjfhhkpljicbbpicelgko?hl=en which can dictate into any textbook. He also uses grammarly premium. https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/grammarly-for-chrome/kbfnbcaeplbcioakkpcpgfkobkghlhen?hl=en

For math, I’d like for Ds to use math talk, but he just won’t. It’s a speech to text math program where students can dictate math. It is currently something Ds refuses to do. We actually switched to a digital curricula so all presentation is screen based, and all output is typed. Not my favorite, but the local community college has similar options (oldest did some classes there while in high school) so I have acquiesced on this point for this year. We are working on him voicing to me accurately this year while I scribe when we do algebra together. The vocabulary around cube roots and all of that is complicated (radical, radicand, etc.) and math vocabulary is a weak point. His math disability is significant. He is on the edge conceptually of needing to go back to modified math—-but so far he is hanging on. We both really want him to be able to avoid a modified high school diploma. The voiced math phrasing just put him over his current ability to cope. His math handwriting is too slow and too illegible to be functional. 
 

 

[prairiewindmomma]

https://mathtalk.com/

[Lecka]

The thread title is "smack me a little on this typing thing" 😉 

Of course if you want to work on typing and handwriting, that is great.  

I've just been back in my Mindwings books and about to do a "character" activity -- it's in one of the levels that is just character and setting.  There's still a lot of good stuff in there in those levels.  And modeling too for kids not doing things independently.  

 

 

[lewelma]

On 1/22/2021 at 4:13 PM, PeterPan said:

So after multiple failed attempts other ways, I've been teaching ds *very tediously* to touch type. We're using the Dvorak keyboarding layout, which is actually working for him. I've been introducing one letter at a time and I created worksheets for the typing where we type 6 rows (single letter space, repeat across, 2 letters repeat, 3 letters, repeat, then 4/5/6). Then when he has that letter DOWN, we do dictation using super simple (cvc, cvcc, ccvcc) words. 

But the problem is, I'm kinda whacking my head here. After all this effort to get him to be able to type SOMETHING, you realize it's STILL not functional? He can't SPELL. So we can go back and do that, fine. I can go through every word/phrase/sentence and we can do the dictation, fine. But even then, that's not typing his THOUGHTS.

I don't know. I'm just starting to wonder why I bother. He's 12 and he can't write legibly functionally, can't type to get his thoughts out, has such scattered thoughts it wouldn't matter if he did. 

 But right now, looking at him at 12 ½, it's looking pretty dark.

I haven't read the replies, but thought I would share our experience.

I've so been here with the exact same problems at the exact same age. At 12, my son could not type and could not spell the top 100 words. He did not understand how language went together in phrases and sentences, and his thoughts (though deep) were completely unstructured. Now, at 17.5 he is completely functional.

To remediate, we:

1) Abandoned handwriting and put all focus to typing

2) He learned to touch type while looking at text, so there was not expectation of spelling. This took 6 months of 30 minutes a day to get him to 20 words a minute while looking at a text he was copying. This was unexpectedly slow progress from my point of view, and only this week did he tell me that it has to do with his synesthesia - one hand is yellow, and one is blue, and all the letters are different colors that don't always align with the yellow/blue hands. 😲 

3) After he could type, we started spelling dictation with Cat in the Hat. 30 minutes a day, 5 days a week, year round, for 2.5 years. I dictated, he typed, and I corrected his spelling word for word. He knew the rules, but could not implement them while concurrently typing, nor could he remember which option to use ee, ea, ei for example. Nothing was automated. Nothing. Not even 'cat' after the first pass on typing out the entire book. We did it twice before moving to Frog and Toad.  I also dealt with the mechanics of language in this way by reading one sentence. Then dictating only a phrase at a time so he could start to hear how sentences are phrases that are combined.  2.5 years.  That is a LOT of hours of one on one instruction.

4) We did big, fun investigation and writing projects for 2 hours a day, 5 days a week, year round, for 5.5. years. This was NOT independent work. I worked with him to teach him to research, take notes, organize his ideas, write papers. At first he dictated papers to me -- this was for the first 2.5 years when he was still learning to type. I had to work and work and work to get him to remember to put in an introductory sentence for each paragraph. And even when he could remember to do it, he had no idea how to do it. We are talking 5 years to master even this one skill, let alone all the others. Then in the next 3 years once he could type and spell, we continued to work on the structuring of thoughts every single day, but now I would get him more involved with typing them himself. He and I would take turns typing a sentence, then a paragraph, then every other day.  For the first year, he had to use a dictaphone to get the thoughts out and then type them. So 5.5 full years to get him to structure his thoughts, and 3 years to get thoughts and typing interwoven into one. This was also a LOT of hours of one on one instruction.  

I have written a lot about this, and have collected all my posts if you want me to post them here all in one place. 

It has been a long journey, and not an easy one. I hope you and your son can find a path that will work for him.

Edited January 31, 2021 by lewelma

[PeterPan]

3 hours ago, lewelma said:

synesthesia

I saw you mention this on the synesthesia thread. Dd has synesthesia and I'm embarrassed to say I never thought to ask ds. Dd figured it out for herself and I'm not entirely clear the extent. I assume she got it from me but I don't know if I have it or not. Occasionally I'm weird in my own right, haha. Anyways, I was thinking (just in general) I ought to talk with ds about it. Dd's is really funky, and I wouldn't know how to broach it with him to figure it out. But I agree, that makes total sense (after you open your brain) that it would affect typing. And yes, VMI for him is INCREDIBLY poor. I've been working on it and working and working, but it's just slow going. I'm hoping to get an OT to retest pretty soon. But I agree, the synesthesia could be an uncommon but possible explanation for prolonged VMI difficulties.

3 hours ago, lewelma said:

spelling dictation

Yes, yes!!! Your story is exactly what has been inspiring me. I've thought about it a LOT. It's why I decided to do both very gently, because it became obvious they were separate, challenged skills. He has the funky language/APD issues that are slowing it down too. But yes, this is exactly what I'm thinking, to just do dictation 

 

3 hours ago, lewelma said:

which option to use ee, ea, ei for example. Nothing was automated.

Yup, this is what I've been afraid of. We did spelling separately with Barton and finally dropped it, because I felt like for him it was becoming a parlor trick, something entirely disconnected from actual language and output for him. And yeah, that's what I've been thinking that he'll need automaticity on patterns, on phonemes, graphemes. 

3 hours ago, lewelma said:

2.5 years.  That is a LOT of hours of one on one instruction.

Yes. It's the number one reason why I haven't enrolled him, even when I get polite and not so polite suggestions and offers. I don't think anyone would ever do what it would really take to get him functional.

3 hours ago, lewelma said:

We did big, fun investigation and writing projects for 2 hours a day, 5 days a week, year round, for 5.5. years. This was NOT independent work. I worked with him to teach him to research, take notes, organize his ideas, write papers. At first he dictated papers to me -- this was for the first 2.5 years when he was still learning to type. I had to work and work and work to get him to remember to put in an introductory sentence for each paragraph. And even when he could remember to do it, he had no idea how to do it. We are talking 5 years to master even this one skill, let alone all the others. Then in the next 3 years once he could type and spell, we continued to work on the structuring of thoughts every single day, but now I would get him more involved with typing them himself. He and I would take turns typing a sentence, then a paragraph, then every other day.  For the first year, he had to use a dictaphone to get the thoughts out and then type them. So 5.5 full years to get him to structure his thoughts, and 3 years to get thoughts and typing interwoven into one. This was also a LOT of hours of one on one instruction.  

Ok, you've blown my mind. I think I read your posts on this in the past and just wasn't ready to hear it. I had sort of la dee dah ideas about how I'd just show him some outline or a string of beads and he'd go oh yeah and do it. But you're right. Given his level of issues (which are significant), this is what it will/would actually take. I just wanted the poof and it happens solution, not the we spent 2 hours a day for 5 years. But it makes sense. This is a kid who can't retell ANYTHING. His brain is so squirrelly for language, for narrative. It has always been this way. And I know there's the curriculum and you just give them the beads and it happens. But it would sound like crap and be stilted because the actual understanding isn't there.

And what your approach corrects is our whole issue of what to do BESIDES THERAPY if that makes sense. It seems like what you basically did was *merge* writing and learning. We do so much "therapy" type junk that it gets in the way of exploratory, analytical learning. But that exploration and analysis would go hand in hand with writing. And I was trying to disconnect them, when you're right they could be delightfully merged. It could solve a lot of problems because it allows you to take the content up and the analysis up but put the writing output where he is.

And I'm saying "he can't retell" but that's hyperbole. He's definitely not retelling the way I want. He's telling better for where he's at and he's functioning at the level he's at. It's just not a complete narrative. I concluded his lack of emotional development was hindering the narrative development, so I've been working on that. We'll probably get breakthroughs in the next 6 months to year.

So do you want to tell me more, in real simple english, about the logistics of this writing to learn approach you were doing?

3 hours ago, lewelma said:

not an easy one.

Yup, and I think I've done so much that I wanted the last pieces to poof and just happen. But what you're saying makes sense.

[lewelma]

I'm so glad my post was helpful.  I have written before on solutions and will copy here.  I wrote this up when he was 15.5, so 1.5 years ago. A bit of repetition from before in the first section, but the second section on solutions is what I think you are looking for.  Read it, and then ask me some questions to help me trigger my memory. 🙂 

I did not know that younger ds had dysgraphia until about the age of 11. Before that I think I was just scaffolding so much that I simply couldn't see it. I finally had him tested at age 12. His dysgraphia falls into 5 categories:

1) Spelling: When ds was first learning to spell in primary school, I didn't realize he had dysgraphia. Because I had already used SWR with my older, I used it with my younger to made sure that his phonological skills were excellent, that he knew every single letter combination, that he knew every single rule for adding endings.  All of this was like the back of his hand. SWR is a powerful program.  But younger ds could still not spell.  What was lacking was automation. So after 3 years of SWR, we tried 7 other spelling programs!  Clearly, my head was end the sand, as I never even considered getting him tested. At the age of 12, he was still sounding every single word out. The problem was automation. I think 'cat' and write 'cat' without thinking, this was not true for him for any word except 'the.'  And while sounding out every single word, he would completely loose what he was trying to say in his writing.  He would also spell the same word three different ways in the same paragraph, all of which followed the rules he had learned so were valid combinations. And he still struggled with recognizing that words he was using in speech were a base word with an ending. So "hiding" was just one thing, not the word 'hide' with the ending 'ing' that he would know the rules for.  So if you asked him to add an ending to a word, he could, but if you spoke a word that already had an ending, he would not know how to spell it because he could not see that there was a base word inside it.

2) Punctuation: In addition, at the age of 12, he still had no sense of what a sentence was so was completely unable to add periods let alone commas.  We had done grammar with MCT and another program whose name I forget, but he still could not identify a subject or even a verb unless it was an exercise in a textbook.  And his language was so complex that it was not easy to show him in his own writing, but practicing punctuating simpler writing never translated into his own because his structure was way more advanced.  

3) Physical handwriting: Even today at age 15, he can write numbers, but cannot write words. Basically, his brain is not automating the creation of letters.  So an 'o' is an a-stop as he calls it.  A's are automated, so to make an 'o' he has to make an a, and then remember to stop the motion to make an 'o'. But interestingly, his brain is fine to make a zero, it is not an a-stop, even though it is the same exact shape. Most of his letters are a combination of 2 strokes that he must recall.  Once again, nothing is automated.  This means that to physically write a word, not only must he sound it out, he also must recall how to form each letter. Currently at the age of 15.5 he can write very legible handwriting at a top speed of 9 words per minute.

4) Organizing ideas: He has always had beautiful adult-level creative writing, but his report and argumentation writing was impossibly difficult for him.  We used IEW for a while, hoping that it would help him with the basics of structure, but he just couldn't implement any system. He couldn't seem to get his thoughts into a set structure. He couldn't remember that he needed an intro sentence and then supporting points and then a conclusion.  It wasn't that sentences were jumbled or unclear -- as I said, he has adult-level style with participle phrases, clauses, noun absolutes, advanced vocabulary etc.  And if he was on a 'roll', he could produce amazing non-fiction writing.  But if ever he was uncertain what to write, he had nothing to fall back on.  He could not get anything down.  The web of ideas could not be structured into linear form through intellectual effort or outlining.  Either he had intuition and flow, or he could write absolutely nothing.  There was nothing in the middle.

5) coding mental math into written form: explained in previous post.   

My solutions:

1) At the age of 11, we decided to do a big push with handwritten work for a full year.  The goal was to increase speed. I dictated to him sentences that he had written in previous work.  We set timers, we charted progress, we celebrated every small success.....  This was an absolute waste of time.  He never picked up speed, there was no way to rush him, his spelling did not improve, and all it did was create stress.  At the age of 12, we decided to abandon handwriting with the exception of math, and I only wished I had done it sooner. During that year, he had concurrently learned to touch type, but because he could not spell any of the words, he could not go faster than 10 words per minute.  People would tell me that spell check would be his friend, but he still had to get the general idea of spelling 'helicopter' for spell check to recognize it.  He still had to sound out every. single. word.  Words like cat, with, boy... let alone all the big words. He could type 30 words a minute if he was copying, but only 10 if he was having to spell the words.

2) At the age of 12, we abandoned all spelling programs (we had tried about 8 by that time) and switched to typing dictation.  I had considered Speech to Text at that point, but my ds and I decided together that we were not ready to go that way as a permanent solution.  The goal of typing dictation (as we called it) was to automate the basic words.  This dictation was not SWB's dictation where the kid is supposed to hold the sentence in her head; nor was is studied dictation like Spelling Wisdom (which we also tried). The goal of our dictation was automation of spelling.  We started to 'Cat in the Hat' because he still could not spell the top 100 words. I would dictate a phrase of like 3-5 words, (I kept to the language groupings to help him begin to hear them), and as he typed I would correct word for word.  During this time, I taught him 'think-to-spell' where you purposely mispronounce a word so that the spelling becomes regular (he knew all the rules); we created sounds for all schwas in words; I would help with spelling by simply breaking the words into syllables; I would remind him of basic ending rules, etc.  Not a lecture, just as we went with a few words as possible so I didn't break the flow.  We worked like this for 30 minutes per day 5 days a week, 45 weeks a year, for 3 years. He loved it.  Go figure. Basically, I came to believe that he just needed to put spelling in context of writing, and that he needed immediate feedback when the word was spelling wrong, and that he just needed to do this for many many sentences.  Over the years, we slowly moved up the book level to Frog and Toad, then older readers, then Narnia, then other fantasy novels he liked.  By the second year, I started punctuation study.  I would tell him after a clause "add a comma because its an introductory clause."  I would use official grammar words, and not make a lecture, just something quick. But over and over and over. What had been lacking in spelling was automation, and what had been lacking in punctuation was both real world application and drill drill drill. This process worked!  It worked beyond all my expectations.  And best of all, he loved it.  

During these years of typing dictation, we also trialed every possible combination to help him organize his ideas (#4 above).  We tried a dictaphone, mind-mapping, list making, speech-to-text. We tried me scribing; we tried me scribing only every other paragraph; we tried him verbally saying what he wanted to say 3 times before writing; we tried funny speed games "why is this item the 'best'"; we tried easy topics; we tried hard topics; we tried research;  we tried studying other writing;  we tried outlining other writing; we tried Ben Franklin's approach of rewrites. We we tried Every. Single. Thing. I could think of.  And I just felt like we got nowhere.  It was very discouraging for me, although I was very encouraging to him and he never knew that I thought we were spinning our wheels. We were making progress, but it was very very slow. 

3) At the age of 15, we quit the typing dictation because I felt that we had made very good progress. He was typing now at about 25 words a minute, he was spelling 80% of words correctly even in difficult books, and could mostly punctuate complex sentences. This was huge given where we started from!! And best of all, ds was feeling good about himself and the progress he had made.  Thus, we moved full focus into writing his own content. We started this new focus 6 months ago. Because he is interested in being a geographer and studying complex issues, he wants to be able to research and write up creative solutions to complex problems.  He has a goal, and this has been very motivating. We decided to go after deep complex topics with high interest and work with engaging questions which required research and processing and organizing.  This seems like a backwards approach, going for difficult writing projects when we had had little success with organizing ideas, but the high interest was the key to the motivation.  I figured we would get further with lots of scaffolding for hard projects, than focusing on independence for easy projects. I will admit, however, that I was nervous about taking this approach, because I knew it would be difficult to tell how much of the work was his work vs mine.

Now 6 months later, he has written 3 research papers: 1) The causes and consequences of the 2004 Tsunami in Ache Indonesia from a cultural and environmental point of view. 2) An analysis of why the population demographic transitions of Maori vs Europeans in NZ were so different over the past 180 years. 3) the cultural and environmental causes and consequences of the 55-year Wataki Dam Scheme in the South Island. It is hard for me to overstate the success we have had with these 3 projects.  Massive massive success.  It is as if the three years from 12-15 where we separated out all the skills and worked on them individually, have all come together in a cohesive whole. All those years of working on organizing his ideas that felt like a waste of time, were not.  It was seeping in, just not showing up because he could not yet write it all down.  I am still scaffolding, and I still have to sit next to him sometimes when he writes, and I have scribed for him a few paragraphs in these reports when he is just too tired but wants to keep the momentum up. However, the scaffolding required for the last paper has been way less than the first paper.  And with 2.5 years to go until graduation, I feel that we are finally on track.  I will still be remediating and accomodating, but now we are doing this *at level* rather than years behind. 

4) The future: we will continue with these large-scale, high-interest projects.  I will continue to be highly involved with the research, outlining, writing, and editing -- strongly scaffolding where needed, but slowly ever so slowly backing off and encouraging independence.  At this point, we are going to start 2 new ventures into the world of dysgraphia: 1) trying to write up chemistry and physics explanations which he will need to do for his national exams.  Scientific explanations are a different type of writing, with different language that he has to learn, but I think he is ready. 2) We are going to actually try to get him to physically write again.  He has been writing his math all this time, so his hand is reasonably strong.  We are going to start by drilling letters (we did this the other day with lots of giggles given he is 15), and we are going to see if he can write a sentence each day, and see where this leads us.  No pressure, but he wants to try.

Now, I know I have written a book here.  I have done it for two reasons.  1) once I got going I really wanted to document our path as I have never written it all out before. 2) I am hoping to give you a realistic vision of what remediating dysgraphia looks like over the long haul. There is no way around it, dysgraphia is a bitch and impacts all aspects of a child's education. Remediating it is long hard work for both teacher and student, but it can be done in a way that is positive and good for a child's self-esteem.  I have never regretted the time and effort I have put into this project.  And I had a friend just yesterday say to me that it is amazing that ds is so proud of himself, that he doesn't feel stupid, and that I never discuss him in a negative way.  DS does not mind me talking about his dysgraphia because he feels it is a part of who he is, and overcoming its is a testament to his hard persistent work over many many years. I also want you to know that you will likely make many wrong turns, and that you will be wandering in the dark, wondering if your approach is the most optimal.  This is just the nature of the beast. As I tried to show, there were things that I did that I shouldn't have done, and there were things that at the time seemed to make no difference, but then later were shown to be incredibly helpful. 

Good luck to you and your ds. Slow and steady wins the race. 

 

Edited February 1, 2021 by lewelma

[lewelma]

Post #2. This one was about how to maintain a positive attitude and motivation in both you and your child. Also written when my child was aroudn 15.5, so 1.5 years ago:

Question someone asked me: you and your son have put in tremendous effort to achieve these targets in a positive way. Whenever I make any such effort to remediate my son's (9 year old) skills, I face huge protests from him. He would gladly work on it for the first few days or weeks. Gradually he throws tantrums and arguments. He finishes the task with a lot of complaints or bad behaviour that I eventually give up. As you mentioned, it is hard work for both teacher and student. Have you faced any such troubles with your DS while continuing with a task for over several years? How do you maintain your student's motivation and attention for such long periods of time. Most importantly, how do you not lose your patience and up your motivation levels? Can you please share some of your strategies?

 

My response: Yes, I have definitely struggled with motivation and with being very discouraged, and yes, I so has my ds. But I think in the end we feel like we are in this together, and we remind each other that bad attitude is not ok. He reminds me as much as I remind him. 

The most important thing I think I did was to let his strengths run.  This approach convinced him that he had skills and talent. So all the stuff I talked about in my previous post was only a small part of his day.  We did high-end math orally; he read difficult science books every day; he learned to play the violin; I scribed for him his amazing stories; and his dad read and discussed complex books on numerous topics.  Most days he felt like a smart, accomplished kid who had the world in front of him.  

For the remediation part, I did everything I could to make him feel empowered. I found techniques to try, but I encouraged him to decide what was working and what was not. We focused on metacognition - how does he learn, how can he use his skills to shore up his weaknesses, how long should he work, when can he identify that he is becoming less effective, how can he use the Charlotte Mason habit of "The Way of the Will" - if you don't like a thought, then change it. He was empowered. Everyday. And on days that he could just not do something, we just didn't do it. But we always made a plan to do it later.  When he mentioned his older brother and wondered why he had things so good, we would discuss the idea that you cannot be some hybrid person - the best of you and the best of him.  You are either ALL your brother or you are yourself.  Do you really want all the negatives that your brother has in order to get the positives? The answer was always no. So we focused on him being him.  We celebrated what he offered the world that others can't.  He has so much charisma that I made sure that he was in lots of activities with lots of positive interactions every day, just check out my siggy.  And these activities were not in academics, so he was focusing on *life* not academics, focusing on what he was good at.  Basically, I've made sure that his life is 90% positive and uplifting, and 10% remediation and long, difficult, sometimes discouraging work.

I also followed his lead on what he needed, and in the end he needed *me*. For a long time, he could not do *anything* on his own. I think there just was a fear of failure, but also simply the inability to write. So for all remediation work, we did it together.  I never assigned him something to do on his own that would be hard, because he just wouldn't do it, or couldn't do it. He could write his math, but I had to sit with him. He could read his books, but I had to sit with him.  I had to do the dictation, I had to scribe, I had to help him outline. I had to hold his hand all the time.  I read posts from people saying 'what can your 9 year do independently?'  And I laugh, because only at 13 could my ds play the violin and read his science independently, every single other thing he needed me for.  Luckily for me, I only had two children.  So I worked 4 hours with my younger before doing 3 hours with my older, then tutoring for 2 hours. If I had had many kids, I'm not sure how this would have played out. People talk about helicopter parenting, and doing too much for a child so they don't become independent. But I have decided those people can just stick their comments where the sun don't shine, because they don't know me and they don't know my kid. 

As for me, I very much have felt that every day I have to put on my big-girl panties and get the job done.  I have found the last 4 years very difficult and draining. But when I signed up to homeschool, I signed up to work. I despised tying-dictation as much as he loved it. And every morning, I would get my cup of tea and my chocolate, and find it in myself to tolerate 30 minutes of correcting word for word his spelling. I just did it because I had to, and I put a smile on my face and joy in my voice no matter what I was feeling inside.  And luckily for me I read posts early on from some of the old timers on this board who discussed how kids pick up speed in high school, and how a 13 year old is a very different learner from a 17 year old, which helped me trust that he would pick up speed as he matured. I focused on keeping track of the very small improvements that I saw over the months.  It is easy to lose track of incremental change when you have a project that you have broken down into 1000 pieces for 1000 days. Can you actually see 1/1000th of an improvement each day?  Well, I tried to. And whatever I saw that was positive step forward each day, I would tell my ds to let him see his improvement, to help him believe in himself and in the work we were doing. I kept a journal with ideas and success stories, reviewed every term what we had accomplished, and then made a plan for the next term to build on our successes. Once a year, I would make a huge list of everything we had done, so although the daily improvements were small and often hard to see, the annual improvements were huge.  When I got blue, I would remember how far we had come the previous year, and trust that my incremental daily program would produce similar results in the current year. Some days, I kept myself going by thinking about the boy my son would have been had he attended school. The boy who would have failed everything, who would think he was stupid, who likely would have dropped out by now. This is the alternative reality that existed for my son, and I remind myself that it is through my hard work and dedication that it is a fate he avoided. 

Edited February 1, 2021 by lewelma

[PeterPan]

1 hour ago, lewelma said:

And he still struggled with recognizing that words he was using in speech were a base word with an ending. So "hiding" was just one thing, not the word 'hide' with the ending 'ing' that he would know the rules for.  So if you asked him to add an ending to a word, he could, but if you spoke a word that already had an ending, he would not know how to spell it because he could not see that there was a base word inside it.

Have you ever seen my posts on whole to parts vs. parts to whole language learning?  https://www.northernspeech.com/echolalia-autism/natural-language-acquisition-in-autism-echolalia-to-self-generated-language-level-1/  The (free) intro videos for this two part series were what finally clicked it in my mind. My ds learned language whole to parts, so as you say, parts of words (whether morphological chunks or phonemic chunks) weren't really connected for him. It's why I stopped working on spelling, because he wasn't learning it with meaning, wasn't having it make sense.

Ironically, after we started working through some materials for APD (which again is another mess, with audiologists testing what is a language disability that SLPs ought to be treating), ds started asking about spelling himself. That is recent and is why I'm even willing to work on it. Just for your trivia, this is the series we have been using. https://www.proedinc.com/Products/31050/differential-processing-training-program-3book-s.aspx?bCategory=OLA!LIST  

So yes, I definitely agree with you that the language issues are driving the lack of morphological and grapheme/phoneme connection. Those pieces aren't being recognized, manipulated, or connected to either meaning or discrimination. I didn't realize psychs were calling that (spelling) as dysgraphia. It makes sense. So then you have audiologists, SLPs, and psychs all calling the same underlying language difficulties different things, lol.

And I'm not saying that's the ONLY component of APD, but they were willing to call that component in my ds an APD when it's clearly due to his developmental language disability. 

1 hour ago, lewelma said:

As for me, I very much have felt that every day I have to put on my big-girl panties and get the job done.  I have found the last 4 years very difficult and draining. But when I signed up to homeschool, I signed up to work. I despised tying-dictation as much as he loved it.

Yes!!! And you know what's funny? My ds has a hard time tolerating it, but he actually LIKES his typing and is PROUD of himself! It's sort of perverse or odd I guess. But I think he views it as getting himself something he wants (the ability to access the internet and keyboarding) so he's motivated. And I don't really mind. I get swamped with so many things we could be doing and I start to burn to a crisp. I just took a little vacation to get some sun and get my mojo back. Fortunately we have a couple days of things ready to go, so we'll ease back into it. I'm hoping maybe some new psych meds will give my ds more frustration tolerance and stamina. But really, in working these areas, I can actually fry him, like doing so much he flips out or is too tired to work the next day. But at least I enjoy it. But it's definitely big girl panties. I'm a pretty somber woman these days, sober, not idealistic with all kinds of rosy pictures of homeschooling. I used to hang paper butterflies from the ceiling for my dd's homeschooling. With this kid, no butterflies, just survival and let's do hard stuff. It's why I'm always looking for how I can appeal to that intellectual side and get that engagement. It's easy to get lost in therapy and some of the stuff I think would be engaging is so open ended he can't handle it.

1 hour ago, lewelma said:

We did high-end math orally; he read difficult science books every day; he learned to play the violin; I scribed for him his amazing stories; and his dad read and discussed complex books on numerous topics.  Most days he felt like a smart, accomplished kid who had the world in front of him.  

I've been thinking this is where we need to get to. I think it would correct some of what's going on. I'm sort of the purveyor of only therapy right now, and I don't know how it happened. I had this plan (not terribly fleshed out honestly) that we would do geography this year. That turned into nothing happening. And science was kits, which had been great in the past but haven't been happening. So all that JOY got sucked out. I have a ridiculous amount of resources, so it's just a matter of picking the right thing. Something sort of brief but controversial. I could try some things on him and just see what clicks. I'm not sure he's ready to do the debate materials, because his social thinking is really odd. (I would just get odd, extreme, non evidence based pronouncements.) But I could try some survey texts, some stretch texts (essay collections), some texts with controversy, and just see what clicks. I just need things that are brief and open/go. 

But yes, I agree that's a huge issue for us that it's hard to keep his day feeling awesome. It quickly degrades into a lot of therapy stuff and boredom. If my fun/engaging/stimulating stuff is too open ended, it falls apart, crashes.

2 hours ago, lewelma said:

And these activities were not in academics, so he was focusing on *life* not academics, focusing on what he was good at.  Basically, I've made sure that his life is 90% positive and uplifting, and 10% remediation and long, difficult, sometimes discouraging work.

Hmm. Ds has been working on figuring out his own life. I think he's got some good things going. I can think about it some more. We were more diverse before covid. Again, I'm hoping the new meds could make a difference. A lot of doors close at this age if you have behaviors, and our med mix is not as good as it needs to be.

2 hours ago, lewelma said:

in the end he needed *me*.

This is the most beautiful statement.

2 hours ago, lewelma said:

For a long time, he could not do *anything* on his own. I think there just was a fear of failure, but also simply the inability to write. So for all remediation work, we did it together.  I never assigned him something to do on his own that would be hard, because he just wouldn't do it, or couldn't do it. He could write his math, but I had to sit with him. He could read his books, but I had to sit with him.  I had to do the dictation, I had to scribe, I had to help him outline. I had to hold his hand all the time. 

Yup.

2 hours ago, lewelma said:

I focused on keeping track of the very small improvements that I saw over the months.  It is easy to lose track of incremental change when you have a project that you have broken down into 1000 pieces for 1000 days. Can you actually see 1/1000th of an improvement each day?  Well, I tried to. And whatever I saw that was positive step forward each day, I would tell my ds to let him see his improvement, to help him believe in himself and in the work we were doing. I kept a journal with ideas and success stories, reviewed every term what we had accomplished, and then made a plan for the next term to build on our successes. Once a year, I would make a huge list of everything we had done, so although the daily improvements were small and often hard to see, the annual improvements were huge.  When I got blue, I would remember how far we had come the previous year, and trust that my incremental daily program would produce similar results in the current year.

Yes! And I see the incremental change. I think I was just fried. My bit of a break last week refreshed me and I feel ready to go again. It's very hard when the steps are that small. Mainly I feel like we're just gonna flat run out of time. 

2 hours ago, lewelma said:

Some days, I kept myself going by thinking about the boy my son would have been had he attended school. The boy who would have failed everything, who would think he was stupid, who likely would have dropped out by now.

I think it would be worse than that. They would have had my ds so stressed he would have rebelled. Instead I have someone who is HAPPY TO WORK so long as the pieces are small enough and structured enough and the breaks are sufficient enough for him to stay calm. Not only would he have concluded he was dumb/incapable, but I think he would have concluded he was BAD. 

2 hours ago, lewelma said:

This is the alternative reality that existed for my son

Yes, this is exactly it. We're making this alternative reality where he has the time and small steps and high support to let it come together. I actually think the biggest problem has been that I was so burnt out. I can see it now. I didn't realize how much I needed that break. I just walked the beach for hours every day, picking up shells, feeling the wind and water. Got my mojo back.

But 90%, that is a super high goal. I'm not sure we can get *quite* there, lol. I mean, we've got some serious issues looming with oral exercises for feeding/swallowing, the VMI, the auditory processing, the language, the typing. But reality is we aren't working on it all at once. Reality is I can do most of what he can handle of that in about 90 minutes. So if we do 3 hours of joy, that would be gobs.

Thanks for chatting. I had these ideas floating through my head (things that came to me after being on that break, because that's how it is that after a break your mind just suddenly KNOWS), and I thought maybe I needed to save those ideas for fall. But you're right, they could be for now, no reason to wait.

[PeterPan]

2 hours ago, lewelma said:

At the age of 12, we abandoned all spelling programs (we had tried about 8 by that time) and switched to typing dictation.  I had considered Speech to Text at that point, but my ds and I decided together that we were not ready to go that way as a permanent solution.  The goal of typing dictation (as we called it) was to automate the basic words.  This dictation was not SWB's dictation where the kid is supposed to hold the sentence in her head; nor was is studied dictation like Spelling Wisdom (which we also tried). The goal of our dictation was automation of spelling.

Yes

2 hours ago, lewelma said:

  At the age of 12, we decided to abandon handwriting with the exception of math, and I only wished I had done it sooner.

Ok, I'm finally realizing something. For handwriting to be functional and useful for him, as you say the spelling and the handwriting would have to connect. So if I'm going to do the cursive program with him, I need to think through WHY. I feel bad that he basically can't write ANYTHING, not even his name. That's not acceptable to me. But I agree that it's not going to be functional for him. The writing is on the wall. And I agree typing is worth the effort vs going to S2T and giving up on typing. Typing is the battle I'd like to win, because it opens doors for him. Handwriting doesn't open doors. It's more just the idea of being able to write almost nothing. He can print (with difficulty) a few words. So if he wanted to copy a code for Among Us from the computer to take down and enter into his nintendo, it would be difficult. He can't (yet) write numbers legibly to do his own math. 

So I guess we'll just see on that. Highest priority would be numbers and a signature. I can't fathom wanting him to write for school work. So I guess we can just see how the cursive curriculum goes (whenever we start it) and just roll with it. If it's clicking, fine, and if not fine. But I agree, it's not going to have the result of enabling him to write school work or any significant quantities. 

2 hours ago, lewelma said:

he still could not identify a subject or even a verb unless it was an exercise in a textbook.

Now THIS we won on! The language books we did enabled him to answer who did what, blah blah using Q/A flows. Now it's not something I'm going to belabor with him, but he gets it enough that it's functional. 

2 hours ago, lewelma said:

I would help with spelling by simply breaking the words into syllables; I would remind him of basic ending rules, etc.  Not a lecture, just as we went with a few words as possible so I didn't break the flow.  We worked like this for 30 minutes per day 5 days a week, 45 weeks a year, for 3 years. He loved it.  Go figure. Basically, I came to believe that he just needed to put spelling in context of writing, and that he needed immediate feedback when the word was spelling wrong, and that he just needed to do this for many many sentences.  Over the years, we slowly moved up the book level to Frog and Toad, then older readers, then Narnia, then other fantasy novels he liked.  By the second year, I started punctuation study.  I would tell him after a clause "add a comma because its an introductory clause."  I would use official grammar words, and not make a lecture, just something quick. But over and over and over. What had been lacking in spelling was automation, and what had been lacking in punctuation was both real world application and drill drill drill. This process worked!  It worked beyond all my expectations.  And best of all, he loved it.  

Yup, this makes sense. I think this is what we're on the cusp of with our growth in typing. I love your idea of bringing punctuation and grammar into the dictation. That so totally works. 

2 hours ago, lewelma said:

We we tried Every. Single. Thing. I could think of.

Yup, lol. I do a lot of this! (the trying everything and feeling like you're spinning your wheels)

2 hours ago, lewelma said:

We decided to go after deep complex topics with high interest and work with engaging questions which required research and processing and organizing.  This seems like a backwards approach, going for difficult writing projects when we had had little success with organizing ideas, but the high interest was the key to the motivation.  I figured we would get further with lots of scaffolding for hard projects, than focusing on independence for easy projects. I will admit, however, that I was nervous about taking this approach, because I knew it would be difficult to tell how much of the work was his work vs mine.

So ironically, this is what Mindwings/Story Grammar Marker (a popular narrative language product developer) wants you to do. They want the kids plunged right in with interesting/challenging nonfiction, engaging fiction, not just short trite instructional models. 

 

2 hours ago, lewelma said:

I still have to sit next to him sometimes when he writes, and I have scribed for him a few paragraphs in these reports when he is just too tired but wants to keep the momentum up. However, the scaffolding required for the last paper has been way less than the first paper. 

So is he typing his own thoughts for this? That is amazing!  And what you're sayign makes sense too, that when each piece of the writing process is so hard, you have to break them apart to build proficiency then bring them back together.

2 hours ago, lewelma said:

We are going to actually try to get him to physically write again.  He has been writing his math all this time, so his hand is reasonably strong.  We are going to start by drilling letters (we did this the other day with lots of giggles given he is 15), and we are going to see if he can write a sentence each day, and see where this leads us.  No pressure, but he wants to try.

Ok, you're blowing my mind. This is amazing!!

2 hours ago, lewelma said:

Remediating it is long hard work for both teacher and student,

yes

2 hours ago, lewelma said:

As I tried to show, there were things that I did that I shouldn't have done, and there were things that at the time seemed to make no difference, but then later were shown to be incredibly helpful. 

That's interesting hindsight. And I think it's important because it's why it's ok to try something my gut says, just to TRY it. Not some kind of long marriage commitment, just a see what happens. It's ok if it doesn't work and it's ok if it builds something he comes back to later.

Well good, thanks for sharing!

[lewelma]

Glad that was helpful. It was actually this subforum that helped me understand what to do with my boy back when I was making decisions 5.5 years ago. There are some incredibly kind and knowledgeable women here. And I thank them from the bottom of my heart.

[Kanin]

On 1/31/2021 at 2:45 PM, lewelma said:

2) He learned to touch type while looking at text, so there was not expectation of spelling. This took 6 months of 30 minutes a day to get him to 20 words a minute while looking at a text he was copying. This was unexpectedly slow progress from my point of view, and only this week did he tell me that it has to do with his synesthesia - one hand is yellow, and one is blue, and all the letters are different colors that don't always align with the yellow/blue hands. 😲 

Whoa!!!! So cool.

[lewelma]

3 hours ago, Kanin said:

Whoa!!!! So cool.

I know, right!  I guess I'm not shocked that I had no idea.  How would I unless he told me, and how would he know that what he was experiencing was unusual and worth mentioning? But wow, does it explain why the typing was so hard to get going. 

Edited February 6, 2021 by lewelma

[EKS]

On 1/21/2021 at 7:13 PM, PeterPan said:

We're using the Dvorak keyboarding layout

This has nothing to do with your question, obviously, but why did you decide to go with a nonstandard keyboard?  What will he do when he needs to borrow someone's laptop or his job only provides standard keyboards?

[PeterPan]

9 minutes ago, EKS said:

This has nothing to do with your question, obviously, but why did you decide to go with a nonstandard keyboard?  What will he do when he needs to borrow someone's laptop or his job only provides standard keyboards?

Well my dd had a horrible time learning to type and was not functional at age 12 despite years of working on it. So I tried Dvorak on her as sort of a latch ditch effort to get ANYTHING that would work, lol. And it's not like it has to be a specific keyboard. I've seen OTs saying to use specific/special keyboards that sort of turn a certain way or something. That wouldn't generalize. 

Dvorak is merely a change in the language settings. So he's typing on some cheap $15 microsoft hunk of junk (literally, he's thrown it, everything) keyboard I picked up at Walmart. I popped the keys off and rearranged most, altered a few. Then you change the input language on the keyboard/system settings. Once you do that, you can make it appear (on a mac) as a simple toggle in the pull down menus on the top menu bar. So I can quickly change the keyboard language, no biggee. I only use qwerty, so I have to change it when I'm on there working, lol. 

Once he can completely and calmly touch type, it really won't matter what physical keyboard he's on. On mac it's an easy toggle to change the language for the keyboard. Now on the ipad it's a little tricker because last I knew you could change it for the hard keyboard (a physical keyboard attached via bluetooth) but NOT the on screen "soft" keyboard. So the ipad settings show both. And the phone is probably that way, haven't checked. So that's frustrating. But since he's on an imac, doesn't matter. Other things like the Nintendo or amazon fire tv use an ABC layout instead of QWERTY, so it still doesn't matter. I assume I can do the language change on a pc, hmm. Haven't tried yet, but it's probably in the settings. It's just like changing to cyrillic or anything other keyboard.

So I did it with dd because at the time both her writing and typing were nonfunctional. Dvorak minimizes midline crossings with a more efficient layout that seemed easier for her. Ds has done well with it, so I'm pretty committed at this point. Someone would have to show me why slugging through QWERTY would be superior, and they can't. Only in the sense that so much instruction is keyed that way is it superior. But for outcomes, not so sure. So many kids with ASD end up nonfunctional and pecking on QWERTY. At least this way I'm winning. And it's a simple toggle in the settings, a nothing, can be done on any compter.

Besides, odds of ds working any job using computers are ZERO. He can barely use a phone reliably, lol.

Edited February 6, 2021 by PeterPan

[EKS]

12 hours ago, PeterPan said:

Dvorak is merely a change in the language settings.

Thank you for your detailed explanation!  I had no idea.