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5HTP? Ashwaganda?


ktgrok
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For mild depression (ok...mostly manifested as bitchy behavior and short fuse, lack of joy) would either of these be good? Supposedly Ashwaganda is good for lowering stress hormones, which seems good. And I want to say a long time ago my mom took 5HTP and it helped her mood. Can they be taken together? And is there a reliable source for dosage?

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Are you also on an anti-depressant? 5-HTP boosts serotonin production indirectly, and it's a no-go if you are on anti-depressants: https://www.webmd.com/vitamins/ai/ingredientmono-794/5-htp

ashwaganda interacts with sedative/anti-anxiety meds: https://www.webmd.com/vitamins/ai/ingredientmono-953/ashwagandha

Read through the pages for dosing on each.

Yes, you can take together.....if you had no other interaction going on.

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31 minutes ago, prairiewindmomma said:

Are you also on an anti-depressant? 5-HTP boosts serotonin production indirectly, and it's a no-go if you are on anti-depressants: https://www.webmd.com/vitamins/ai/ingredientmono-794/5-htp

ashwaganda interacts with sedative/anti-anxiety meds: https://www.webmd.com/vitamins/ai/ingredientmono-953/ashwagandha

Read through the pages for dosing on each.

Yes, you can take together.....if you had no other interaction going on.

No, no antidepressants, no anti anxiety meds. I rarely take a muscle relaxant (cyclobenaprine) when my back is really hurting, and I take vyvanse/adderall. Thank you for th links!

 

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I'm guessing you saw my recent post about this combo that my son's doctor has him on? 

Here's her website and article with dose info:

https://www.hearthsidemedicine.com/post/calming-anxiety-and-insomnia-without-meds

She recommended DS start with 50mg or even 25 mg of 5htp and give it a good 6 weeks before upping dose, again in small doses. Then repeat process above. I started DS on 100mg. She was fine with that. If we do need to add, we'll do so by 50mg at a time. She also recommends a 200 mg max. Or are least most people do not need more than that. I think she would prefer to add in other stuff to boost the 5htp effectiveness at that point.

I'm at a dentist appointment for kiddos, but can link the ashwagandha and dose he takes when I get home.

Hope that helps!

 

 

 

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I take both.  

For cortisol levels (aka stress hormone), I take a combination of Ashwaghanda*, L-theanine, and relora.  It was my replacement for the recommended by my naturopath: Integrative Therapeutics Cortisol manager.  - I don't react well to the phosphatidylserine.  I'm starting to think the 'cocktail' is making me drowsy during the day.   My cortisol has finally crashed during the day (I'd hoped to head it off)  - and is high at night.  My ND has me taking a double dose to help bring down the cortisol, as well as to help me sleep.

*I use Ashwagandha by either Jarrow or pure encapsulations.  It has to do with the concentration of withaniloids.

If you're wanting to treat cortisol/stress - a good b-complex is essential.  I take Emerald Laboratories B-healthy.  You can also take a good adrenal support supplement in place of straight ashwaghanda.   at least half contain holy basil leaf (which is very good) -  I'm allergic to a component in HBL, so my choices are considerably fewer.

 I also take 5-HTP 2x per day.  my dr told me I could take up to 500mg?  600mg? perday.  I take about 400mg.  I was about to give up after a few weeks when I only used the dose based on the label.  It wasn't nearly enough.  Then I went higher and actually noticed a positive improvement.

 

eta: just wanted to clarify if you haven't done a 24 hr spit test for cortisol - it should be high in the morning, then gradually go down during the day and be "quiet' at night.

Edited by gardenmom5
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Okay, here's the ashwagandha supp that DS takes: https://www.amazon.com/Gaia-Herbs-Ashwagandha-Liquid-Capsules/dp/B00F1J72S8/ref=sr_1_7?dchild=1&keywords=liquid+cap+ashwagandha&qid=1610669120&s=hpc&sr=1-7

Each liquid cap is equal to 2700 dry herb. DS takes 1 a day. Each cap is standardized, which means it's guratented to have the recommended amount of the active/medicinal ingredient. 

5-htp. I'm very careful to only buy supplements from companies that are independently tested. There is a lot of junk out there, and I do my homework. I like Jarrow's 5-htp. I've seen it works wonders. Recently, @PeterPan recommended the Natrol time release brand. I looked it up, and it looks great too. Interestingly, one of the reviewers for it on Amazon said that the Natrol and Jarrow brands that give them the most noticeable benefits. 

It's important with 5-htp to give the med time to work before upping dose. You really want the lowest working dose you can be on. There are many reviewers who stated the med kicked in later at the 6 week or so mark. So don't give up if you're not feeling benefits in a few weeks! Do make sure to up and see if that make's a diff if you're not feeling it at that time. Quality of supp makes a diff too in being able to take a lower vs. higher dose. So stick with better quality supps. Also, I noticed huge improvement on just a 25 mg dose. My current AD is working at just 15 mg! Some people do not need a higher dose.

Jarrow 50 mg caps: https://www.amazon.com/Jarrow-Formulas-5-HTP-Memory-Support/dp/B0013OVSWG/ref=sr_1_4?dchild=1&keywords=jarrow+5-htp+50+mg&qid=1610670073&s=hpc&sr=1-4

I could only find the Natrol time release in a 100 mg or 200 mg. They do make a 50 mg time that isn't time release. You may want to double check all of that. I just did a quick search.

50 mg Natrol

https://www.amazon.com/Natrol-5-HTP-Capsules-50mg-Count/dp/B005CXUXB6/ref=sr_1_2_sspa?dchild=1&keywords=natrol+5-htp&qid=1610670429&s=hpc&sr=1-2-spons&psc=1&spLa=ZW5jcnlwdGVkUXVhbGlmaWVyPUEyQlFPM0FQSUgzQjlQJmVuY3J5cHRlZElkPUEwMzc1ODk0M0gzWk9LRzg4N0IyUSZlbmNyeXB0ZWRBZElkPUEwNDAxMjkyMTdDMlFJTVA0U1owRCZ3aWRnZXROYW1lPXNwX2F0ZiZhY3Rpb249Y2xpY2tSZWRpcmVjdCZkb05vdExvZ0NsaWNrPXRydWU=

100 mg time release Natrol

https://www.amazon.com/Natrol-5-HTP-Release-Tablets-100mg/dp/B001JD9DMI/ref=sr_1_4?dchild=1&keywords=natrol+5-htp+time+release&qid=1610670200&s=hpc&sr=1-4

Edited by IfIOnly
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2 minutes ago, IfIOnly said:

Okay, here's the ashwagandha supp that DS takes: https://www.amazon.com/Gaia-Herbs-Ashwagandha-Liquid-Capsules/dp/B00F1J72S8/ref=sr_1_7?dchild=1&keywords=liquid+cap+ashwagandha&qid=1610669120&s=hpc&sr=1-7

Each liquid cap is equal to 2700 dry herb. DS takes 1 a day. Each cap is standardized, which means it's guratented to have the recommended amount of the active/medicinal ingredient. 

5-htp. I'm very careful to only buy supplements from companies that are independently tested. There is a lot of junk out there, and I do my homework. I like Jarrow's 5-htp. I've seen it works wonders. Recently, @PeterPan recommended the Natrol time release brand. I looked it up, and it looks great too. Interestingly, one of the reviewers for it on Amazon said that the Natrol and Jarrow brands that give them the most noticeable benefits. 

I

Ok, the ashwaganda I got was standardized for the active coumpound, so that's good. And the 5HTP was the Natrol one. 

1 minute ago, IfIOnly said:

200 mg is a large dose to start off with. I would caution against, personally.

I'm going to cancel the order and get the 100mg instead. Thank you. (I tend to under react to meds, so not too worried by the 100mg dose)

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1 minute ago, ktgrok said:

Ok, the ashwaganda I got was standardized for the active coumpound, so that's good. And the 5HTP was the Natrol one. 

I'm going to cancel the order and get the 100mg instead. Thank you. (I tend to under react to meds, so not too worried by the 100mg dose)

I think that sounds great. My son is doing really well on the 100 mg of 5htp and 1 cap of the ashwagandha. He was definitely experiencing depression and has some cortisol/adrenal issues. This is a great combo for him, and his mood has greatly improved. He was so touchy about stuff and everything was an argument or taken to the next level. That was hard for all of us. 

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6 minutes ago, IfIOnly said:

I think that sounds great. My son is doing really well on the 100 mg of 5htp and 1 cap of the ashwagandha. He was definitely experiencing depression and has some cortisol/adrenal issues. This is a great combo for him, and his mood has greatly improved. He was so touchy about stuff and everything was an argument or taken to the next level. That was hard for all of us. 

That kind of describes me right now. I'm no longer ready to cry at the drop of a hat, thanks to exercise and light therapy, but I'm touchy and easily annoyed by EVERYTHING, lol. 

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From the above article. 

Quote

Ashwagandha, (adaptogen), can significantly reduce the symptoms of anxiety, and has been shown to improve cortisol levels by resetting adrenal-associated stress, overall reducing your predisposition to anxiety. Adaptogens do not work overnight. They are best taken daily, not “as needed”, to reach full effectiveness.

 

Ashwagandha helps balance hormones that contribute to anxiety as well as helping to induce relaxation and aid sleep. A number of studies support the effectiveness of the herb as a natural anxiety remedy. In 2012, a study found that patients diagnosed with anxiety disorder showed significantly lower anxiety and 28% lower levels of serum cortisol when taking Ashwagandha as opposed to a placebo.

 

You can add a teaspoon or two of the powder to smoothies or other foods, it can be taken in capsules, 500-1000 mg twice daily, or in tincture form, 2-4 mL, twice daily. It can be taken before bed to help with sleep. Most patients tolerate this relatively well, but caution should be advised if there are underlying thyroid concerns, and some studies suggest that intermittent thyroid levels be checked. I have had a couple patients report increased anxiety taking it, so as with anything, “start low, go slow” with the dose to see how your body responds to it.

Quote

5-HTP

 

5-HTP works in the brain and central nervous system by increasing the production of the chemical serotonin. Serotonin can affect sleep, appetite, temperature, sexual behavior, and pain sensation. Since 5-HTP increases the synthesis of serotonin, it is used for several diseases where serotonin is believed to play an important role including depression, insomnia, obesity, and many other conditions.

 

Depression. Some clinical research shows that taking 5-HTP by mouth improves symptoms of depression. Several studies have found that doses of 150-3000 mg daily for 2-4 weeks can improve symptoms of depression. Some early research shows that 5-HTP might be as beneficial as conventional antidepressant therapy for some people.

 

Evidence on the effects of 5-HTP for anxiety is unclear. Early research shows that taking 25-150 mg of 5-HTP by mouth daily along with carbidopa seems to reduce anxiety symptoms in people with anxiety disorders. However, other early research shows that taking higher doses of 5-HTP, 225 mg daily or more, seems to make anxiety worse.

 

L-tryptophan and 5-HTP are widely used alternative treatments of generalized anxiety. Both amino acids are essential for the manufacturing of serotonin in the brain. Serotonin is a neurotransmitter that plays a central role in the regulation of mood and anxiety..

The risk of serotonin syndrome and other adverse effects is minimized when 5-HTP is started at low doses, such as 25 milligrams per day, and gradually increased over several weeks to a daily regimen that is well tolerated and produces beneficial anti-anxiety effects.

 

5-HTP is POSSIBLY SAFE when taking by mouth appropriately. It has been used safely in doses up to 400 mg daily for up to one year.

 

Caution: Some people who have taken 5-HTP have developed a condition called eosinophilia-myalgia syndrome (EMS). EMS is a serious condition involving extreme muscle tenderness (myalgia) and blood abnormalities (eosinophilia). Some people think EMS might be caused by an accidental ingredient or contaminant in some 5-HTP products. But there's not enough scientific evidence to know if EMS is caused by 5-HTP, a contaminant, or some other factor. Until more is known, 5-HTP should be used cautiously.

 

Other potential side effects of 5-HTP include heartburn, stomach pain, nausea, vomiting, diarrhea, drowsiness, sexual problems, and muscle problems.

 

5-HTP is POSSIBLY UNSAFE when taken by mouth in large doses. Doses from 6-10 grams daily have been linked to severe stomach problems and muscle spasms.

 

Pregnancy and breast-feeding: There isn't enough reliable information to know if 5-HTP is safe to use when pregnant or breast-feeding. Stay on the safe side and avoid use.

 

**Taking 5-HTP along with these medications for depression might increase serotonin too much and cause serious side effects including heart problems, shivering, and anxiety. Do not take 5-HTP if you are taking medications for depression. Some of these medications for depression include fluoxetine (Prozac), paroxetine (Paxil), sertraline (Zoloft), amitriptyline (Elavil), citalopram (Celexa).

 

Taking 5-HTP along with dextromethorphan (Robitussin DM, others) might cause too much serotonin in the brain and serious side effects including heart problems, shivering, and anxiety.

 

Tramadol (Ultram) can affect a chemical in the brain called serotonin. 5-HTP can also affect serotonin. Taking 5-HTP along with tramadol (Ultram) might cause too much serotonin in the brain and side effects including confusion, shivering, stiff muscles, and others.

 

5-HTP—50 milligrams to 100 milligrams taken three times a day—is a safe and effective approach for chronic generalized anxiety that is well tolerated without excessive daytime sedation. 5-HTP may be taken alone or in combination with anti-anxiety medications.

Gradually increasing a bedtime dose of 5-HTP from 50 milligrams to 200 to 300 milligrams over a period of two to three weeks often improves the quality of sleep in chronically anxious patients who complain of insomnia while also reducing the severity of daytime anxiety.

 

https://www.hearthsidemedicine.com/post/calming-anxiety-and-insomnia-without-meds

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Since @ktgrok has her genetics, she can look up the gene for producing 5HTP and see if she has the defect. It's TPH2. I've shared the RS number and don't have it handy. But just search the raw data with promethease and the TPH2 gene will show up. There's at least one RS.

From what I've seen (and I didn't research it hard), the data was limited in general to support 5HTP use *without* the defect. Like just to say oh yeah everyone would find it useful as an antidepressant, that didn't fit the studies. BUT if you actually have the defect, then your 5HTP is low.

In other words, taking 5HTP is not like taking an herb where you're putting in something foreign and trying to create an effect. If you have the defect and are not properly/adequately making it, then taking it merely brings the levels back up. Unless you take a stupid lot (don't ask) at which point you're pushing the system because other things are wrong.

And @ktgrok knows this, but I'm mixed COMT (high methyls), VDR (results in high methyls), and MTHFR (low methyls) and for me 5HTP is gold. I take 200 mg twice a day. I hear about people taking tiny amounts like a 50 or 100mg, and those would do diddley for me. I've gone higher, and it doesn't feel good. That for me is a sweet spot. And I use the Natrol time release. The only brand I can tell you to avoid is NOW. That was worthless in our house, horrible.

5HTP is the precursor to serotonin and melatonin. So it *can* be done on top of an SSRI/SNRI, but it has to be done CAREFULLY so you don't end up with serotonin syndrome. Another person in our house is using both, and it can be done and can be good. But it was done carefully, with the knowledge of the doctor, because yes it's going to up serotonin and melatonin. But at a point, why wouldn't you? If replacing what the body isn't making can do it, why take an SSRI? I mean, I don't know, call me crazy. People can do what they want. I'm just saying if you have the defect, it's low and able to be brought up. 

I'm really into the b6 thing these days. Learning about zinc and P5P (an activated form of B5) for pyroluria has been astonishing. Super rare explanation of anxiety, but it can happen. Again, easy to check if you have your genetics, which op does. The gene name is slipping my mind. Drove a lot today for testing and I'm tired.

3 hours ago, ktgrok said:

mostly manifested as bitchy behavior and short fuse

Are you still on the stimulant med? Were you having this irritability before the stimulant med? If you have a COMT defect and VDR (vitamin D receptor) then your methyls are going up despite your MTHFR defect. So yes it's making you irritable. You can even quick/dirty test it by taking niacin. Just go take 100mg, 200mg, whatever you want, whatever low amount makes you flush (but NOT so much you vomit), and see if your headaches and grouchball clear. 

The problem is, the niacin clears it the hard way, by mopping. You want to clear the methyls by dealing with the real problem. Options are decrease what you put in (high methyl donor foods like ORANGE JUICE or ibuprofen or caffeine) or replace the things the body isn't making that should have been using up the methyls. Vitamin D pulls the methyls off methycobalamin (b12) which is why it's part of the methylation cycle. So if you have a VDR defect and aren't making enough D, your methyls go up. Taking D thus can calm mood and change the gender of your dog. Another is that TPH2 gene which, when defective, results in low 5HTP. The 5HTP uses up methyls as part of the making of the serotonin and melatonin. So the reason you want the time release version is so you get NICE SMOOTH stabilizing of mood.

I'll put it discretely, but let's just say I was not the person for many years that I wanted to be with my mood. At first we thought it was blood sugar, but it kept happening. I even tried lithium, thinking I might have (enter mystery sounds) something going on that needed a "mood stabilizer." It's why I'm so pissy about the DSM, because they use these voodoo terms and COMPLETELY IGNORE the CHEMISTRY of the behavior. When it's beyond your volition and not what you want to be, maybe it's your chemistry, kwim?

So for me, I take 200mg 5HTP in the morning, another 200mg 5HTP 12 hours later. I take a 100mg niacin and lunch and another at dinner. I take 10k IU (and 400 mg k2 to make sure the D actually works/absorbs) in the winter and 15k IU daily in the summer. With those amounts, as long as I eschew that list (caffeine, orange juice, ibuprofen, benadryl, all major methyl donors), I'm pretty stable. However if I eat a grapefruit like yesterday, wowee. Today I had a stupid boatload of caffeine, so I have to be really careful the next day as well. I can take some extra niacin and try to pull it down, but it won't be perfect. I should go take some.

I'm not saying what someone else should take, only what I take or what it takes. It's not just one thing because it wasn't just one piece. So lithium is interesting. It's naturally occurring in food in trace amounts and some people will take Perrier water or the trace but consistent levels. I actually liked how I felt on it, but it was visibly pushing down my thyroid and I went so flat (because I already have a flat affect anyway and was evening out) to the point where a certain someone else in the house started yelling at me. In other words, I'm saying I find it easier to *start* by fixing the things I know are low that could stabilize mood before moving on to try other things. I don't think blaming helps, because you can't will away chemistry. I do think *self awareness* and self monitoring can help. It's a level of maturity we can bring as adults that our kids don't bring or that we didn't bring when we were younger. 

Edited by PeterPan
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1 hour ago, IfIOnly said:

200 mg is a large dose to start off with. I would caution against, personally.

Wanna curl your hair? My ds takes 800mg in the morning, 100mg at supper, and another 800mg before bed. With that much, as long as we aren't LATE for any doses, we have minimal property damage. It's why we're bringing on a pdoc, because I've clearly maxed out what I can make happen. I want him on 200mg twice a day and something else that stabilizes mood for the rest. I think right now I'm assuredly way beyond physiologic and into territory where I'm affecting other HT things sideways. There are psych meds that will do this with less grief and expense and more stability I think.

But yeah, 200 mg is a drop in the bucket for some people, lol. I take it twice a day and it's just joy. But if you don't need it, don't have that genetic defect, then you really don't need it. And fwiw I think I'm only heterozygous for the defect. I really don't remember. So I can definitely imagine scenarios where some people have more alleles defective on that gene and need higher doses than others. Just like research is showing some people have more severe dyslexia than others because of the number of genes affected. 

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That's interesting about B6 @PeterPan. I was just reading this article recently and it talks about B6 and D3 being the biggies to sup with if you want to go the nutrient route.

Quote

1. Vitamin B6
Vitamin B6 contributes to normal mental function. According to initial scientific research, as a cofactor, it specifically supports the conversion of amino acids to serotonin and is therefore important for the formation of the happiness hormone.

Unfortunately, vitamin B6 cannot be completely produced by the body itself, but fortunately, it is contained in many foods. Good vegetable sources include avocados, cabbage, green beans, and lentils. Good animal sources are poultry, liver, and fish.

2. Vitamin D
Vitamin D, which can be ingested through a balanced diet and can also be formed under sunlight, is essential to support your immune system and is also associated with mood in initial scientific studies.

More in-depth research is still urgently needed here. Vitamin D deficiency is widespread in an unbalanced, one-sided diet, especially in winter. A too low concentration can be accompanied by a so-called "winter blues". [3]

Therefore: Off to the sun! This can be good for your immune system and therefore also for your well-being.

3. Omega-3 fatty acids 
Omega-3 fatty acids are found mainly in fish such as salmon, mackerel, and the more sustainable krill, but flaxseed and oils also contain a lot of omega-3 and are among the most important nutrients for brain health and functioning. The fatty acids are crucial for your brain cells because they are made up of them.

Scientists have found that people with low serotonin levels often do not take enough omega-3 fatty acids. Two relatively well-known representatives are docosahexaenoic acid (DHA) and eicosapentaenoic acid (EPA). These two acids can make the body's receptors more receptive to serotonin and at the same time promote its release. [4]

Take-Home-Message #3: Serotonin levels in the body can be influenced by diet. You just have to know how!

 

FIND OUR VITAMIN D NOW

 

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1 hour ago, ktgrok said:

I'm going to cancel the order and get the 100mg instead. Thank you. (I tend to under react to meds, so not too worried by the 100mg dose)

It's more flexible to start with the 100mg and work your way up. That way you can find your sweet spot.

How is your vitamin D? Do you have labs?

 

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6 minutes ago, PeterPan said:

Wanna curl your hair? My ds takes 800mg in the morning, 100mg at supper, and another 800mg before bed. With that much, as long as we aren't LATE for any doses, we have minimal property damage. It's why we're bringing on a pdoc, because I've clearly maxed out what I can make happen. I want him on 200mg twice a day and something else that stabilizes mood for the rest. I think right now I'm assuredly way beyond physiologic and into territory where I'm affecting other HT things sideways. There are psych meds that will do this with less grief and expense and more stability I think.

But yeah, 200 mg is a drop in the bucket for some people, lol. I take it twice a day and it's just joy. But if you don't need it, don't have that genetic defect, then you really don't need it. And fwiw I think I'm only heterozygous for the defect. I really don't remember. So I can definitely imagine scenarios where some people have more alleles defective on that gene and need higher doses than others. Just like research is showing some people have more severe dyslexia than others because of the number of genes affected. 

I totally know large doses are needed by some. I also think that most people do not need that large of a dose and going low and upping low is probably the best way to find out what the best dose for you is, especially if you're supplementing without the supervision of a doctor.

Edited by IfIOnly
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Just now, IfIOnly said:

That's interesting about B6 @PeterPan. I was just reading this article recently and it talks about B6 and D3 being the biggies to sup with if you want to go the nutrient route.

 

Because I'm lazy

So there's your info with the gene and RS. I'm homozygous for the defect. It's not even mysterious, like ooh take this and it might help. My body has an issue, I take the form that is all ready to go (P5P) and funky problems improve. I was able to drop my anxiety med. The med upped my irritability a bit, so it has been a happy surprise. It explains all kinds of weird things that had been going on.  @ktgrok has her genetics to look for this stuff.

Supplements are the kind of thing where you feel like you're taking stuff mysteriously. I'm suggesting look at the genetics and target it. if you have both the defect AND the symptoms, then consider treating. People don't always have symptoms despite ticking the gene, for any number of reasons. But I like the clarity and direct connection. I used a nutritionist for years who had her theories, and most were really, really good. But there was stuff I was taking that in general was supposed to help that didn't feel right. So me, I'm all over the genetic evidence rather than the vague claims.

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1 hour ago, ktgrok said:

That kind of describes me right now. I'm no longer ready to cry at the drop of a hat, thanks to exercise and light therapy, but I'm touchy and easily annoyed by EVERYTHING, lol. 

I'll just add a twist, but for me the irritability is the methyls and the crying at the drop of a hat is anxiety which for me is the pyroluria. So before I started treating the pyroluria, I would take an anxiety med and the crying would stop. Just a nuance to sort out.

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1 minute ago, PeterPan said:

If op considers this, be careful because I think it's a methyl donor. I'm to the point where basically I google anything new we're considering to check if it's a methyl donor or is high in methyls. 

I wonder if that's why I felt so bad taking the bendadryl. Man, it helped me sleep, but I felt it's effects well into the next day. Thrilled to have finally found something else to help me get sleep.

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17 minutes ago, IfIOnly said:

I wonder if that's why I felt so bad taking the bendadryl. Man, it helped me sleep, but I felt it's effects well into the next day. Thrilled to have finally found something else to help me get sleep.

I don't know your genetics. Nuts, I hardly know mine, lol. Some of the genes affect how quickly you process substances, so sure there could be reasons the benadryl makes you feel groggy. I have to be *really careful* on it, oh my. My ds is actually dangerous on it, like psycho level really dangerous. It took two different times before we figured out what the pattern was. There are prescription antihistamines that are a little safer but still rough. He's not dangerous on some of the OTC but they give him headaches.

Anyways, you could look at your genes. If you think it's your methyls, just wash it out with niacin, kwim? But my quick and dirty when it's just sluggish metabolism is to take glutathione. I use Jarrow brand, because it's good enough. So if I take an antihistamine and it's bad voodoo, tylenol is bad voodoo, whatever, I just wash it with the glutathione. 

So I guess the cure depends on the cause. But yeah, it can give you a hangover and not feel good. I have to be pretty desperate to take it and then I plan on not feeling myself for a while.

Edited by PeterPan
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16 minutes ago, IfIOnly said:

I wonder if that's why I felt so bad taking the bendadryl. Man, it helped me sleep, but I felt it's effects well into the next day. Thrilled to have finally found something else to help me get sleep.

My dd is also homozygous - and it doesn't affect her sleep at all.   . . . Me, I take it at night ,, but it only lets me sleep for six hours.  but, . . cat . . . who today decided to nap in my bed. (on dh's side.)

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10 minutes ago, PeterPan said:

  But my quick and dirty when it's just sluggish metabolism is to take glutathione. I use Jarrow brand, because it's good enough. So if I take an antihistamine and it's bad voodoo, tylenol is bad voodoo, whatever, I just wash it with the glutathione.  

Interesting - my understanding has always been glutathione must be in a form that will actually be absorbed into the cells, and it doesn't work from a capsule/powder.  what has your information been?

For me, I've ordered a liposomal glutathione, but haven't found one I really like.       we did 12 weeks of daily injections for dudeling, and I had other people walk up to me and ask what we were doing because of the change in him.

tylenol is bad for the liver.

 

eta: wow - the thorne is cheaper than the lipsomal I've taken, maybe I'll try it.

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3 hours ago, ktgrok said:

No, no antidepressants, no anti anxiety meds. I rarely take a muscle relaxant (cyclobenaprine) when my back is really hurting, and I take vyvanse/adderall. Thank you for th links!

 

I forgot to mention that DS is on a low dose of adderall and the combo is just fine for him according to his doctor.

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55 minutes ago, PeterPan said:

It's more flexible to start with the 100mg and work your way up. That way you can find your sweet spot.

How is your vitamin D? Do you have labs?

 

Labs most recently had D at 40 something, I've upped my supplements (rather, started being better at taking them, lol). I'd like to be above 50. 

 

47 minutes ago, PeterPan said:

If op considers this, be careful because I think it's a methyl donor. I'm to the point where basically I google anything new we're considering to check if it's a methyl donor or is high in methyls. 

Yeah, I have a COMT defect too, and can't take methylated B vitamins in big doses or I get really anxious - like way too much caffiene or something. 

 

37 minutes ago, IfIOnly said:

@ktgrok I'm not sure how your sleep is, but just the 5-htp (started several weeks before the ashwagandha) has improved my son's sleep wonderfully. He was having on and off bouts of insomnia for about the last 6 months but is sleeping so well now!

sleep is mediocre. Some nights ok, others I wake up and am pacing at night. 

11 minutes ago, IfIOnly said:

I forgot to mention that DS is on a low dose of adderall and the combo is just fine for him according to his doctor.

oh good! The ADHD meds help me have the executive function to control the bitchy feeling, so those need to stay, lol. 

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5 minutes ago, ktgrok said:

sleep is mediocre. Some nights ok, others I wake up and am pacing at night. 

oh good! The ADHD meds help me have the executive function to control the bitchy feeling, so those need to stay, lol. 

I hope you're sleep is much improved! DS is on a super low dose of ADD med for now because we think the other mood supps could help enough to avoid upping it. Low serotonin and ADD symptoms can overlap. It can be hard to know what's what she says. Doctor wants to see how he feels when he's been on the the others for a little longer before deciding a next step.

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40 minutes ago, gardenmom5 said:

Interesting - my understanding has always been glutathione must be in a form that will actually be absorbed into the cells, and it doesn't work from a capsule/powder.  what has your information been?

For me, I've ordered a liposomal glutathione, but haven't found one I really like.       we did 12 weeks of daily injections for dudeling, and I had other people walk up to me and ask what we were doing because of the change in him.

tylenol is bad for the liver.

 

eta: wow - the thorne is cheaper than the lipsomal I've taken, maybe I'll try it.

I did IVs of glutathione when I was using a particular doctor. It's all fine and everyone has theories. I take it, I feel what happens. Pretty simple. I used to be quite chemically sensitive, so if I travel and eat a lot of conventional food I have that in my arsenal. Haven't looked into any fancier forms. I'm sure they're out there. I can feel the difference with this and it was already plenty expensive. But that's fine if there's something better. I mean, you can always find something more, like NAC as the precursor. It's just my quick and dirty hack and as an anecdote and nothing more it works for me.

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23 minutes ago, ktgrok said:

sleep is mediocre. Some nights ok, others I wake up and am pacing at night. 

How was your sleep before the ADHD meds? Just asking.

So improving the D can, ironically enough, improve your sleep. You may need to go higher than 50. I keep mine more like 90 and I feel like trash in the dumpster at 60. Do what you want, but that's why there's a range, lol. When we've had threads, it was pretty much universal (highly dominant, the majority, my impression of the majority) with people taking it saying they felt best when they went up to the top of the normal range. The only funkiness is if you take D without the K2 and screw up how it moves minerals around in your body. So take it with K2.

 

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3 minutes ago, PeterPan said:

How was your sleep before the ADHD meds? Just asking.

So improving the D can, ironically enough, improve your sleep. You may need to go higher than 50. I keep mine more like 90 and I feel like trash in the dumpster at 60. Do what you want, but that's why there's a range, lol. When we've had threads, it was pretty much universal (highly dominant, the majority, my impression of the majority) with people taking it saying they felt best when they went up to the top of the normal range. The only funkiness is if you take D without the K2 and screw up how it moves minerals around in your body. So take it with K2.

 

sleep was no different before ADHD meds. If I take a dose too late in the day that will mess up my sleep, same if I have my 2nd coffee too late, but that's more an issue of falling asleep vs sleep quality/staying asleep. 

 

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4 minutes ago, ktgrok said:

sleep was no different before ADHD meds. If I take a dose too late in the day that will mess up my sleep, same if I have my 2nd coffee too late, but that's more an issue of falling asleep vs sleep quality/staying asleep. 

 

So then if you take melatonin, what happens? Does it both resolve the sleeping issue and make you grouchy? Or does it not touch the wakefulness?

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1 minute ago, PeterPan said:

So then if you take melatonin, what happens? Does it both resolve the sleeping issue and make you grouchy? Or does it not touch the wakefulness?

It does help some, with sleep. but no effect that I noticed on overall mood. I keep meaning to do a trial with the time release kind. 

Last night I had trouble sleeping - woke up and was having trouble settling again so I went and curled up in bed with the 3 yr old - listening to a little one breathing kicks in the oxytocin or something and I slept great the rest of the night, lol. 

Edited by ktgrok
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Sleep is complicated. In addition to the things you're working on to find root causes (5HTP, etc.), you might also consider asking for a scrip of hydroxyzine. It's an old school antihistamine, yes methyl donor but not quite as high as benadryl, and it will make you drowsy possibly with less hangover. Then you just work it to see what time you need to take it so it has washed by the time you need to be awake. It's on label for anxiety and as an antihistamine, and it helps sleep. 

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2 minutes ago, PeterPan said:

Sleep is complicated. In addition to the things you're working on to find root causes (5HTP, etc.), you might also consider asking for a scrip of hydroxyzine. It's an old school antihistamine, yes methyl donor but not quite as high as benadryl, and it will make you drowsy possibly with less hangover. Then you just work it to see what time you need to take it so it has washed by the time you need to be awake. It's on label for anxiety and as an antihistamine, and it helps sleep. 

I know that medication - we use it in animals still as an antihistamine pretty regularly. Benedryl definitely gives me a hangover, which is funny because things like opiods that knock other people out keep me awake. (happy, but awake, lol)

My daughters can't take most antihistamines - makes the oldest weepy and miserable and the younger one grumpy as heck. I do fine on the newer ones like zyrtec if need be, and bendryl just makes me sleepy/groggy, not crazy like it does them. 

 

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1 minute ago, ktgrok said:

It does help some, with sleep. but no effect that I noticed on overall mood. I keep meaning to do a trial with the time release kind. 

Last night I had trouble sleeping - woke up and was having trouble settling again so I went and curled up in bed with the 3 yr old - listening to a little one breathing kicks in the oxytocin or something and I slept great the rest of the night, lol. 

So the 5HTP should cause your body to make the melatonin itself. The melatonin, if you take it directly, is a methyl donor and can leave you groggy in large amounts. My ds tolerates it *1 day* meaning I can use it for emergencies. But then, because he has no MTHFR defect, he's gonna be dangerous and completely unworkable by a 2nd dose. Me, I've never taken it. I take 5HTP in stiff doses, control my light, and use calming repetitive activities like solitaire on the ipad with the brightness turned down low. Fish Farm can work. For me, solitaire, spider solitaire, it's sort of my perfect zen spot. I like your breathing regulation plan, hehe. Babies are good. 

Have you ever thought of glancing at the interoception stuff? Like just her free webinar, just a little something to see if anything resonates with you. https://www.kelly-mahler.com/resources/blog/5-keys-to-supporting-behavior-regulation/  

You could also look into hot water bottles, weighted blankets, and the hydroxyzine. If you're actually pacing, the med would nip that and help you get down.

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Just now, ktgrok said:

I know that medication - we use it in animals still as an antihistamine pretty regularly. Benedryl definitely gives me a hangover, which is funny because things like opiods that knock other people out keep me awake. (happy, but awake, lol)

My daughters can't take most antihistamines - makes the oldest weepy and miserable and the younger one grumpy as heck. I do fine on the newer ones like zyrtec if need be, and bendryl just makes me sleepy/groggy, not crazy like it does them. 

 

Yes, the hydroxyzine is a methyl donor. I know an adult who uses it for sleep and have used it on and off a few years with my ds. It's FABULOUS and clears better than benadryl. It's also stupid cheap, so it's just something to ask about. It's on label for anxiety. You might get by with low enough side effects that it's worth it as a tool. Obviously the 5HTP is better in the sense that making your own melatonin is always preferable, lol. But if you're like tools and choice, it's a tool.

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2 minutes ago, ktgrok said:

opiods that knock other people out keep me awake. (happy,

I don't know if I've been on opioids but in high school I was put on some kind of synthetic codeine and was HIGH AS A KITE! So then when I got really sick with pneumonia as an adult the doc was like hey want some cough syrup... and I'm like I don't know... LOL I took it and went to bed, no one launched. But I was worried! LOL

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6 minutes ago, PeterPan said:

 

You could also look into hot water bottles, weighted blankets, and the hydroxyzine. If you're actually pacing, the med would nip that and help you get down.

I actually just got a heated blanket, helps to get to sleep but then I woke up too hot. I'd fallen asleep last night in synthetic pajamas and ugh, no good. so turned blanket off, got up, changed into cotton pajama pants, then got a drink and peed and by then was up, lol. Taht's when I settled in with the baby 🙂

I HATE weighted stuff on my feet - everyone but me has a weighted blanket. I have to have a light blanket that is not tucked in at the foot of the bed so my feet are not "stuck" lol. You ever see those "foot tents" they sell for the bottom of the bed for old people? I'd love that, lol. Sensory issues are fun..sigh. (it's also winter, and we keep getting cold fronts, but my sensory issues mean I HATE long sleeves, so I'm constantly balancing my hatred of being cold with my hatred of wearing clothing, lol. It's a hard time of year for sensory people 🙂

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9 minutes ago, PeterPan said:

I don't know if I've been on opioids but in high school I was put on some kind of synthetic codeine and was HIGH AS A KITE! So then when I got really sick with pneumonia as an adult the doc was like hey want some cough syrup... and I'm like I don't know... LOL I took it and went to bed, no one launched. But I was worried! LOL

I'm an ultra rapid metabolizer, so that stuff hits me hard and then wears off fast. Fun while it lasts though - but only  certain ones. Regular old codiene makes me sleepy and is no fun.  But hydrocodone - that gives me the warm fuzzies. But keeps me awake...not that I care, lol. I'm glad they make me itchy as that keeps me from ever taking more than I should 🙂

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7 minutes ago, PeterPan said:

Yes, the hydroxyzine is a methyl donor. I know an adult who uses it for sleep and have used it on and off a few years with my ds. It's FABULOUS and clears better than benadryl. It's also stupid cheap, so it's just something to ask about. It's on label for anxiety. You might get by with low enough side effects that it's worth it as a tool. Obviously the 5HTP is better in the sense that making your own melatonin is always preferable, lol. But if you're like tools and choice, it's a tool.

Just a heads up that along with benadryl, hydroxyine is listed as a drug to avoid or use briefly. They both have been found in studies to increase Alzheimer's risk. So okay for a short term solution, but not long term. It's the main reason I tried again and again to get of benadryl as a sleep aid coupled with the scary brain/cognitive side effects I was having using it.  

I started having sleeping issues when my dad died, and so for that really intense few months following, benadryl was great. But what I didn't realize is that cortisol was the underlying problem. By the time I did find that out, my adrenals were so shot that I wasn't responding to much of anything for treatment. One thing I try to do is find out how someone is sleeping who is going through a tragedy. Often, they're not sleeping well. I try to encourage them to support their adrenals as they're going through something that definitely taxes them and elevates cortisol causing insomnia. 

https://www.health.harvard.edu/mind-and-mood/two-types-of-drugs-you-may-want-to-avoid-for-the-sake-of-your-brain

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13 minutes ago, IfIOnly said:

Just a heads up that along with benadryl, hydroxyine is listed as a drug to avoid or use briefly. They both have been found in studies to increase Alzheimer's risk. So okay for a short term solution, but not long term. It's the main reason I tried again and again to get of benadryl as a sleep aid coupled with the scary brain/cognitive side effects I was having using it.  

I started having sleeping issues when my dad died, and so for that really intense few months following, benadryl was great. But what I didn't realize is that cortisol was the underlying problem. By the time I did find that out, my adrenals were so shot that I wasn't responding to much of anything for treatment. One thing I try to do is find out how someone is sleeping who is going through a tragedy. Often, they're not sleeping well. I try to encourage them to support their adrenals as they're going through something that definitely taxes them and elevates cortisol causing insomnia. 

https://www.health.harvard.edu/mind-and-mood/two-types-of-drugs-you-may-want-to-avoid-for-the-sake-of-your-brain

And Ashwagandha is my favorite support to recommend for adrenal support in the early stages of any adrenal taxing situations. It coupled with vitamin C, which is huge for adrenal support, is a wonderful support to help carry one through any sort of distress and help head off more serious adrenal issues.

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37 minutes ago, IfIOnly said:

I started having sleeping issues when my dad died,

I'm sorry. :sad:  I remember the first time I went to bed after being with my FIL when he passed. I had never been with anyone who passed before and it was scary, even with hospice there to help us process.

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  • 2 weeks later...
On 1/14/2021 at 1:57 PM, ktgrok said:

For mild depression (ok...mostly manifested as bitchy behavior and short fuse, lack of joy) would either of these be good? Supposedly Ashwaganda is good for lowering stress hormones, which seems good. And I want to say a long time ago my mom took 5HTP and it helped her mood. Can they be taken together? And is there a reliable source for dosage?

Have you started anything yet? If so, how's it going?

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On 1/14/2021 at 9:17 PM, PeterPan said:

Sleep is complicated. In addition to the things you're working on to find root causes (5HTP, etc.), you might also consider asking for a scrip of hydroxyzine. It's an old school antihistamine, yes methyl donor but not quite as high as benadryl, and it will make you drowsy possibly with less hangover. Then you just work it to see what time you need to take it so it has washed by the time you need to be awake. It's on label for anxiety and as an antihistamine, and it helps sleep. 

I have a script for 10 mg of hydroxyine for anxiety--- actually I don't feel anxious very often anymore but my family still thinks I need a chill pill sometimes and it works for that.

It is weird.  I take so many antihistamines- famotodine for GERD daily, azestaline nasal spray twice daily for actual allergies and to prevent asthma attacks, singulair, and also zyrtec (both for allergies/asthma control) and then finally the hydroxyzine as needed.

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Opioids don't make me happy nor sleepy nor high, they just take away the pain for me. 

As to the drugs to supposedly increase Alzheimer risk-  I have serious questions about this.  Because the latest research seems to be that Alzheimer's starts way, way earlier than previously thought and I am not into researching it so much but couldn't the greater use of some of these medications- many of which are anti-anxiety or sleep medications or anti-depressants simply come up more because sleep and increased anxiety may be very early manifestations of later dementia problems?

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11 hours ago, TravelingChris said:

actually I don't feel anxious very often anymore but my family still thinks I need a chill pill sometimes

Have you ever thought about reading about (or working on) your interoception? https://www.kelly-mahler.com/what-is-interoception/  It might get you to where you could decide that reliably for yourself. 

11 hours ago, TravelingChris said:

later dementia problems?

Total wacky aside, but I complained about my odd, inexplicable memory problems for years. Turns out pyroluria and an issue with how my body handles b6 and zinc, especially when stressed, explains both the memory issues *and* the anxiety. So yeah, there could be multiple reasons why there are overlaps.

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So I've been taking them I think 10 days now. I am not suddenly super happy or anything, but I am finding it easier to identify and deal with the negative thoughts and scripts in my head. How much of that is meds, I don't know. I also lowered my Vyvanse dosage for other reasons, no idea how that factors in. 

I feel less overwhelmed, again, can't say how much that is meds versus other stuff, but we shall see. I think it takes a few weeks to really help. 

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