Winter camping.....am I crazy to consider this?

[Ottakee]

Tonight a friend tried to convince me to join her and her brother and her niece and nephew in law on a camping trip.  It would be a 7+ mile hike and then overnight camping (by the vehicles...so car camping, not back packing).

The issue is they want to do this in February......in Michigan.....as long as the temps at night are at least 15°.

I have not camped in 27 years.   We can take what we need with us including water, and extra winter gear.

My biggest concern is there won't even be put toilets here....just the woods.

My friend was really moved when we were out last weekend and drove past a homeless tent camp in our area.  She says that if the homeless can do this all winter, we who have many more resources and better clothing, etc should be able to do this for one night 

[Katy]

That sounds miserable.

[Starr]

I would want to restart camping in better weather.February can be awful. People winter camp but with all the proper gear. If you don't have it you'll be running your car all night. And frostbite is real. 

[katilac]

Yes, you are crazy to consider that. That is not the way to jump back into camping, lol. 

Go make some hot cocoa and read a travel book. 

[Terabith]

That does seem a little nuts.  I mean, clearly people do winter camp.  But it's a specialized skill set, and usually they are experienced, practiced campers who own the right equipment.  

[PeterPan]

Ok, I'll be a dissenter and say it's not crazy IF you have the proper equipment. For instance, my dh has a sleeping bag that is rated to I think some kind of below zero temp. That thing is CRAZY WARM and we use it when the power goes out, etc. So sure, people with tech equipment camp safely like that with cold weather.

But would I go out with some woman who was having a pity for the homeless??? NO WAY. That's NUTS. She can go on her own social justice gig by herself. i don't want pneumonia for no reason, mercy. Oh and my dad was on the streets (and another relative) as part of their journey, so it's not like I'm insensitive. It has been unusually mild here, south of you in the land that got BEATEN IN FOOTBALL LAST NIGHT, but I would only go with the equipment to do it right. If this woman isn't bringing it, that's dumb. You don't need to be sick for it, not now, not with covid.

[Spryte]

That’s not the way I’d get back into camping.  Not me, personally.  
 

I have fond memories of winter camping, and we even have the gear for it.  

But I would not choose that as a reintroduction to camping after a long time not camping.

Unless you love the cold?! 

[PeterPan]

1 hour ago, Ottakee said:

7+ mile hike

I'd be concerned about that. You get all sweaty and it's easier to get chilled. You really want to be careful and dress in layers.

1 hour ago, Ottakee said:

there won't even be put toilets here.

So we've done the portable thing, but that's not my idea of fun. Apparently this woman isn't viewing this as a pleasure trip. I go to the bathroom pretty frequently, so me I camp at a site right by the johns in a state park, my own personal place. I guess that really depends on how often you go. I think it's a real fallacy to think she knows how those people are solving their issues. Our library had to remove the doors to the bathrooms because so many were coming in from the streets doing drugs, etc. The way they solve their problems or the level of dehydration, etc. they have might not be what you want. Again, she doesn't seem to be doing this to enjoy nature. 

 

[PeterPan]

5 minutes ago, Spryte said:

I have fond memories of winter camping, and we even have the gear for it.  

So what *is* a good way to do it? Just wondering. 

[livetoread]

I don't know, how much discomfort are you ready to endure for an adventure? it doesn't sound dangerous to me with the cars right there, but it sounds unpleasant for sure. However, sometimes grand adventures involve unpleasantness. I would totally do it to be with a friend right now on a crazy, bonding adventure. I camp a fair amount (though I generally avoid cold), and would know what to bring.

[Carol in Cal.]

Just be aware—my friends who do things like hike in the High Sierras for days on end say that the sleeping bag temperature ratings are more survival ratings than comfort ones.  If it’s 15 degrees and you’re in a bag rated down to 15 degrees, you won’t die, but you will be uncomfortable, according to them.  Also, you NEED a pad underneath to keep the cold ground from chilling the sleeping bag all night, and an extra blanket would just be sensible, whether you put it on top or underneath.  

Personally I get up in the middle of the night to go to the bathroom, so this does not sound appealing to me on any level.  

If I wanted to provide solidarity with a homeless woman, I would rent her a motel room and get her out of the cold, not go sleep in the cold myself.  

 

[regentrude]

Not crazy. For many years, we used to spend every new year's night in the mountains under a rock overhang. Sometimes it got down to 0F. Just pad, sleeping bags and a fire. Fond memories. 

The bathroom isn't really a problem; you'll have a cold butt only for a minute. Unless there's deep snow.

With modern sleeping bags and pads and a tent it will be fine, and you'll have extra stuff in the car. (Now, I  personally would not find a short hike like this worth camping out in the cold just for camping's sake.  Four hours of hiking, and then how do you spend the rest of the awake hours?)

Edited January 13, 2021 by regentrude

[lewelma]

3 hours ago, Carol in Cal. said:

Also, you NEED a pad underneath to keep the cold ground from chilling the sleeping bag all night,

To be clear, you will die without proper insulation under you at 15 degrees F. 

Edited January 13, 2021 by lewelma

[Carrie12345]

I can’t camp without a flushable toilet no matter what time of year it is.  I have done outhouse camping (in late fall, and only as a kid, not knowing that was the arrangement) and might be able to bring myself to do it as an adult IF I know it’s meticulously maintained, but it’s a hard no beyond that. 

My winter camping has only been more like glamping. Travel trailer or cabin with reliable heat source. It’s one thing to be active outdoors all day in the cold. It’s a completely different thing to be still all night in the cold.

Homeless people die in the winter. Not all of them, thank goodness, but let’s be real. They’re not playing an extreme sport for funsies. Their lives are literally at risk.

[Pawz4me]

I wouldn't do it. I like cold weather.  But we've been in our RV many nights when the temps got into the mid 20's, and a couple of times when it snowed. In an RV with a propane furnace and all the other modern conveniences. And it still wasn't particularly fun. I don't think it's particularly dangerous if you have the right equipment, it's just not something I'd do voluntarily. 

[Ottakee]

6 hours ago, Seasider too said:

Echo!

If you end up doing it, I am definitely  going to mail you a commemorative t-shirt. 😁

@Seasider I will take you up on that.😀

[Ottakee]

  I wrote a long reply and it ate it.

Anyway, friend and her family are backpackers so this isn't a totally random idea.  Her brother is an experienced outdoorsman.

We would have enough and the right gear for this ....and the vehicles right there.

The homeless got my friend thinking, but it isn't like a social justice trip, more like adding to their 3 season backpacking.   I am the newbie to the camping    

The 7 mile hike is quite easy and we know layers and are walking/hiking 3-4 miles several days a week in the winter already.

Honestly, my holdback is the lack of even pit toilets at camp.   

 

Edited January 13, 2021 by Ottakee

[MEmama]

DH and I used to do lots of winter camping when we lived in Minnesota.

The most extreme was a winter backpacking excursion in the Boundary Waters.

Highlights included following fresh moose tracks while snowshoeing on frozen lakes and listening to wolves howl very near our tent in the night. Hands down the most peaceful sound I’ve ever heard.

Lowlights included being forced to snowshoe on lakes because the snow was too deep for our big black lab, the whiteout that whipped up while on a lake that easily could have disoriented us, accidentally making (instant) hummus instead of hot cocoa for warmth and calories, feeling our lab shiver all night because despite pads, down sleeping bags and a wool blanket he was sooo cold. It was well below zero.

We weren’t near a car. I guess with that safety you can bring all the quilts and gear you want, even battery hand warmers and the like. But then you’re really just choosing to sleep in the cold next to a parking lot, I’m not sure what the purpose is? But hey—if you’re up for the adventure of doing it, why not!

At this point in my life it doesn’t sound fun, but it certainly sounds plenty safe (after all, you can always just leave).

[regentrude]

2 hours ago, Ottakee said:

Honestly, my holdback is the lack of even pit toilets at camp.   

Pit toilets are often nasty. Much cleaner to just go in the woods. 

Is the issue that squatting is physically difficult for you?

[regentrude]

30 minutes ago, MEmama said:

But then you’re really just choosing to sleep in the cold next to a parking lot, I’m not sure what the purpose is? 

Yeah, that's the part that would put me off, too.

[wintermom]

2 hours ago, Ottakee said:

  I wrote a long reply and it ate it.

Anyway, friend and her family are backpackers so this isn't a totally random idea.  Her brother is an experienced outdoorsman.

We would have enough and the right gear for this ....and the vehicles right there.

The homeless got my friend thinking, but it isn't like a social justice trip, more like adding to their 3 season backpacking.   I am the newbie to the camping    

The 7 mile hike is quite easy and we know layers and are walking/hiking 3-4 miles several days a week in the winter already.

Honestly, my holdback is the lack of even pit toilets at camp.   

 

I think it's a question of your own personal interest. Having the opportunity to try this with an experienced outdoorsman is great. He's not going to put you in a situation of danger. You may be uncomfortable, but that happens in all seasons with camping. Lack of pit toilets shouldn't be the deciding factor if this is simply one night and you're with your car. You can simply drive to the nearest toilet if you really NEED that facility. Is the reason there are no toilets because this isn't a campground? Is it private property?

On a slightly different line, in my province this would not be possible because of the covid lockdown if the people weren't from the same household. 

Do you know what motivated the invitation from your friend? Does she want you to keep her company? I've never had anyone try to convince me to winter camp and certainly not outside a campground. 

Edited January 13, 2021 by wintermom

[hippymamato3]

That would get a very hard pass from me.

[PeterPan]

34 minutes ago, regentrude said:

Pit toilets are often nasty. Much cleaner to just go in the woods. 

In our state they have different kinds. The ones on trails are usually kind of creepy, made of wood, solar/window lights. The ones in our campgrounds, at least the last one I stayed at, are masonry with electric lights and they get hosed down daily. Presumably not in the winter, lol. So those are actually pretty reasonable. They sometimes even have a fountain and spigot beside them to wash your hands. If I go to the bathroom in the woods, it gets on my legs, yuck. Done it plenty of times, don't prefer it. I must just pee more than some. But if you go in a *nicer* pit toilet that has been sprayed down and have a toilet seat and a light, it's reasonably tolerable. 

[Spryte]

9 hours ago, PeterPan said:

So what *is* a good way to do it? Just wondering. 

It’s been 20+ years, so I’m hardly an expert.  I did it in large groups, we all had proper winter gear.  Layers, good tents, sleeping bags rated for the temperatures. We did backcountry camping, so bathrooms consisted of a shovel and a private spot.  It’s more difficult if the ground is frozen!  
 

We were often not recreational camping in that weather, rather trying to get one more trip in for data before the season ended.  It was cold, and I didn’t like snow, but the right gear helps.

 

Recreationally - DH and I once had a freak snow storm blow in, after we’d taken some treacherous cliff switchback cliff roads to a spot.  I spent the night with a dog in my sleeping bag, and we packed up first thing.  We were not cold, so much as worried about more weather and being really snowed in. Driving out was the worst part.

[catz]

We’ve done below freezing camping and it is fine with good gear.  I think it is one of those things you need to be enthusiastic about out of the gate and not need convincing on.   If it doesn’t sound fun to you, it probably won’t be fun for you.  

[PeterPan]

3 hours ago, Ottakee said:

Honestly, my holdback is the lack of even pit toilets at camp.   

If you're going to have the equipment and that's the only issue, maybe just solve it? https://www.cabelas.com/shop/en/texsport-portable-folding-toilet-or-toilet-bags  Or we've had friends bring a 5 gallon bucket and fill it with sawdust. There are ways. What is his plan?

[PeterPan]

3 minutes ago, Spryte said:

so bathrooms consisted of a shovel and a private spot.

So just for op, I'll say that I did the *hole* in the ground thing for 2 weeks at a camp, and that is not so bad as just bare/flat ground. So if that is his plan (shove, hole), that wouldn't be so bad. But I agree the ground is probably already frozen. 

 

3 minutes ago, Spryte said:

I spent the night with a dog in my sleeping bag,

That would work! What an amazing story!

Edited January 13, 2021 by PeterPan

[Ottakee]

1 hour ago, regentrude said:

Pit toilets are often nasty. Much cleaner to just go in the woods. 

Is the issue that squatting is physically difficult for you?

It is the BM issue.  I regularly pee outside while hiking.

[MEmama]

17 minutes ago, Ottakee said:

It is the BM issue.  I regularly pee outside while hiking.

You’re in Michigan, right? So I assume you have frozen ground and snow cover. Basically it’s going to be just like a dog, then. It won’t go away when the snow melts. 
 

Since you’ll have a car, you can opt to bring a portable toilet. That’ll solve that problem (maybe create others, idk).

[HS Mom in NC]

I wouldn't take someone who hasn't camped in 27 years and is worried about no bathrooms on a camping trip like that.  I'd ease them in in warmer weather and covered vault toilets or whatever the Michigan equivalent is. Then if they did well, I'd take them in cool weather and no toilets.  If that went well I'd do it in cold weather.  The kind of gear required for cold weather camping (which I haven't personally done colder than 35 degrees at night) is usually different than for warmer weather-it's heavier. Also, with the possibility of an adult being injured farther away from civilization, I wouldn't take inexperienced adult campers/hikers, I'd have experienced ones as back up in case I was the one injured-especially in more extreme weather.  You never know what day you'll find out you have a bad back/knee/ankle.

I sacrificed my left knee hiking Flat Iron in the Superstition Mountains. I was only 2 miles from the parking lot (ETA: headed back to the vehicle at the end of the hike) and wasn't carrying anything other than a light day pack, but it was not easy for me to get back on my own feet.  I had two adult males with me who could help physically support me if I needed it.  My knee was the size of a cantaloupe when I got home.  It was a beautiful 70 degree day.

Edited January 13, 2021 by Homeschool Mom in AZ

[prairiewindmomma]

On one hand, I am reassured that you are camping by the vehicles so you can escape into them in the night if needed....but 15F camping is not fun. I know you understand dressing for the cold....but even if you have a decent down bag and layers of pads and clothes, it’s cold. 
 

It’s the stupid stuff that makes me crazy with winter camping—like your boots freezing. If they are damp enough from the hike, they can freeze stiff. 
 

I’d recommend easing into camping with  a spring trip instead.

[SounderChick]

I wouldn't because it doesn't sound fun.  I've done winter camping but its been for a reason.  Not just to do a day hike and than camp just to camp.  

[KungFuPanda]

I don't even want to do a day hike in the winter, much less sleep outdoors when it's cold.  I'm too antiquated to sign up for known misery. 🤣

[Carol in Cal.]

2 hours ago, Ottakee said:

It is the BM issue.  I regularly pee outside while hiking.

See, to me this is the great thing about just one night.  Chances are this issue would be avoidable, even though that is not my standard pattern.  But I would be um motivated.

An additional concern that I would have, personally, is icy conditions on the trail.  The combo of higher risk of falling and very low temperatures can be fairly dangerous.  I like to hike, although I rarely camp or backpack, but even for day hikes I normally try to avoid a mix of ice and slope.  Maybe it’s super flat there?  It’s really not anywhere that I would normally go.

[wathe]

6 hours ago, Ottakee said:

  I wrote a long reply and it ate it.

Anyway, friend and her family are backpackers so this isn't a totally random idea.  Her brother is an experienced outdoorsman.

We would have enough and the right gear for this ....and the vehicles right there.

The homeless got my friend thinking, but it isn't like a social justice trip, more like adding to their 3 season backpacking.   I am the newbie to the camping    

The 7 mile hike is quite easy and we know layers and are walking/hiking 3-4 miles several days a week in the winter already.

Honestly, my holdback is the lack of even pit toilets at camp.   

 

Does "experienced outdoorsman" mean experienced with winter camping?

Is your intended location remote?

There's quite a lot that could go wrong.

If this were a trip with others who are experienced with winter camping, and experienced with takig newbies winter camping, and you were in a location that was well populated (meaning that you aren't relying on vehicles or cell phones to call for help, but that there will be actual other people on the ground nearby withing a short walk to who could assist in an emergency), then I'd say go for it.  Otherwise, no.  Cellphones require special care int he cold, the batteries will die.

 

 

[wathe]

I winter camp with cub scouts in tents.  A majority of the are generally new to winter camping - I do a lot of teaching newbies to winter camp (youth and adults)  We always have a rock solid emergency plan, that includes a rewarming strategy (a heated building within a short walk) and an emergency communication plan that does not rely on cellphones or vehicles - access to a land-line is a must.  We are also always near enough to other people that help is a short walk away.

I've got to run.  I have more thoughts that I'll post later this evening.

 

[wintermom]

37 minutes ago, wathe said:

Does "experienced outdoorsman" mean experienced with winter camping?

Is your intended location remote?

There's quite a lot that could go wrong.

If this were a trip with others who are experienced with winter camping, and experienced with taking newbies winter camping, and you were in a location that was well populated (meaning that you aren't relying on vehicles or cell phones to call for help, but that there will be actual other people on the ground nearby withing a short walk to who could assist in an emergency), then I'd say go for it.  Otherwise, no.  Cellphones require special care int he cold, the batteries will die.

 

 

This is an excellent point. They need to have all the equipment they need, and back-up things for you. That and give you a list of things you NEED and actually go through all your gear and make sure you have it before you pull out of your driveway. 

Edited January 13, 2021 by wintermom

[Ottakee]

15 hours ago, PeterPan said:

Ok, I'll be a dissenter and say it's not crazy IF you have the proper equipment. For instance, my dh has a sleeping bag that is rated to I think some kind of below zero temp. That thing is CRAZY WARM and we use it when the power goes out, etc. So sure, people with tech equipment camp safely like that with cold weather.

But would I go out with some woman who was having a pity for the homeless??? NO WAY. That's NUTS. She can go on her own social justice gig by herself. i don't want pneumonia for no reason, mercy. Oh and my dad was on the streets (and another relative) as part of their journey, so it's not like I'm insensitive. It has been unusually mild here, south of you in the land that got BEATEN IN FOOTBALL LAST NIGHT, but I would only go with the equipment to do it right. If this woman isn't bringing it, that's dumb. You don't need to be sick for it, not now, not with covid.

It isn't pity for the homeless.  She is a backpacker and has done a lot of camping.  Just seeing them in the winter made her think that yes, we can do this too.  It will be a group of 6, 3 guys, 3 women.....me, friend, her niece, friends brother, niece's husband and a friend's son.  Several of them are very experienced outdoorsman.....and we will be about 30 feet from at least 2 4  wheel drive vehicles, have cell service, and be just a short distance outside of town.

[Ottakee]

Sorry, I can't respond to everyone personally.

Camping will be with 6 adults, we would have 2-3 different 4 wheel drive vehicles which would be maybe 30 feet from our tents.  We would camp on friend's niece's property in a more rural area but certainly not wilderness, think woods down a dirt road with other people on the next 20 acre lot.  There would be cell service, a bon fire, grill, and a town a short distance away.

My son found our tent and we set it up.  Workable for what I would need and I can take along a 4' foam mattress, ground cover, zero degree (or lower) sleeping bag, extra clothes, blankets, etc.

For my bathroom issues (I will pee outside no issues), I can borrow a lug a loo.....which is like a 5 gallon bucket lined with 2 trash bags.  You add in some sawdust, cat litter, etc. and then have a toilet seat on it.  That is a game changer for me.  It was the #2 issue in the snow.

For the hike, we would be dropped off at one end and hike to camp.  Quite flat area but we don have poles, crampons, snowshoes, etc. if needed.   The trail crosses several dirt roads so if there is an issue, we are likely never more than 1/2 mile from an access point.

Yes, I know this sounds crazy....and a year ago....ok, even last night, I thought this was crazy.  Now I think this could be one of those adventures you are glad you did...once you are done.  

This is sorta a mid life crisis.  My friend and I both have some healing that we have done recently and we are ready to move on and try new things and go on some adventures.  This will be everything from a health food store and pawn shop this weekend . . .  to this crazy trip in a few weeks and then backpacking an island in the summer.

As to covid, families will come in their own vehicles. we will have our own food and water, own tents, etc. and will obviously be outside the entire time.

[PeterPan]

Sounds like you have a good plan! I hope you have fun! I agree, the line on crazy and not yet done but good is faint. 

[Ottakee]

7 minutes ago, PeterPan said:

Sounds like you have a good plan! I hope you have fun! I agree, the line on crazy and not yet done but good is faint. 

Not sure which side of the line we will fall on.  We are more than willing to scrap it if the weather looks bad, low wind chills, cold rain, etc.

[Katy]

I'd want a 4-season tent in temperatures like that. I'd prefer a wall tent with a wood stove, a cabin, or a camper.  Also keep in mind you need at least double pads beneath you in temperatures like that, and sleeping bags rated to 15 degrees are designed to keep you alive at a dry 15 degrees, not comfortable or sleeping well.  I need a 0 degree bag in the 30's though, so my temperature preferences may be far different from yours.

[Ottakee]

Just now, Katy said:

I'd want a 4-season tent in temperatures like that. I'd prefer a wall tent with a wood stove, a cabin, or a camper.  Also keep in mind you need at least double pads beneath you in temperatures like that, and sleeping bags rated to 15 degrees are designed to keep you alive at a dry 15 degrees, not comfortable or sleeping well.  I need a 0 degree bag in the 30's though, so my temperature preferences may be far different from yours.

I know we won't have wall tents with a wood stove.   We did discuss the 15 degree bag will keep you alive but not warm.   We will get better bags to borrow and we can have several, sleep in our down long coats, wool blanket, etc.  I would not do this if we were back packing and had to carry what we needed down the trail.   I would look pretty funny carrying my 5 gallon bucket lug a loo with me 😄

[prairiewindmomma]

That seems much more reasonable than what winter camping looks like here. You aren’t remote, you have pretty good able to leave capabilities, and the nephews etc are adults.

I still wouldn’t want to do it, but if you are up for it, go for it.

[Carol in Cal.]

That sounds reasonable.

Which I have to say, it didn't at first.

OK, I have to say this, too--it sounds reasonable but not attractive to me.  Like, I would not feel like a stronger, more capable person for having done this, and I probably wouldn't have a very good time doing it.  For me, stronger/more capable would be climbing a peak I had not done before, or hiking at a higher altitude than I had previously managed.  And fun would be more along the lines of great scenery, and then good food and rest and conversation as opposed to being on the edge of so cold out that I am trying to avoid getting out of my sleeping bag to pee.  But what is attractive, fun, and prowess building varies a lot from person to person.  You do you!

[Ottakee]

12 minutes ago, Carol in Cal. said:

That sounds reasonable.

Which I have to say, it didn't at first.

OK, I have to say this, too--it sounds reasonable but not attractive to me.  Like, I would not feel like a stronger, more capable person for having done this, and I probably wouldn't have a very good time doing it. 

Yes, more details are making this seem doable.    And, for me, I do think that it would make me feel stronger, etc.   After this, any camping adventure would seem easy.

[katilac]

There's still no way I would do it, but I'll be quite happy to read about your adventures 

24 minutes ago, Dreamergal said:

 Imodium shuts down the system. One usually takes care of it.  

I'm going to say this is very person-dependent and I would never plan on it. Imodium does what it says on the label for me and nothing more, lol. 

[jen3kids]

Go for it!  You have a great plan.  What an amazing experience, and like you said.... so empowering!!!

 

[wintermom]

Sounds like fun! Hope you get decent weather. 😃 

[PeterPan]

31 minutes ago, Ottakee said:

Yes, more details are making this seem doable.    And, for me, I do think that it would make me feel stronger, etc.   After this, any camping adventure would seem easy.

What's the food plan? I'm all about the food.