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Checking in... Anxiety about current events


Katy

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3 minutes ago, Katy said:

What everyone misses about the Obama was born in Kenya argument: it wouldn’t matter if he was. His mother was still a citizen, so he is a natural born citizen. Where you are born has nothing to do with it unless neither of your parents are citizens. 

OMG...I really did completely miss that. I was never on that train, but erroneously believed that the train had a point of destination. Mind blown, 12 years late is better than never! Thanks! 

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1 minute ago, Moonhawk said:

OMG...I really did completely miss that. I was never on that train, but erroneously believed that the train had a point of destination. Mind blown, 12 years late is better than never! Thanks! 

You have to understand that the logic is irrelevant. It doesn’t matter if it makes sense.

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12 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

Sure, but first let’s agree Joe Biden won this election and Obama wasn’t born in Kenya. 

Drat, I seem to have lost 80% of my audience from the other side of the aisle. So who am I supposed to talk to about real solutions??

I do agree. I believe in state's rights and that a mob or a President shouldn't be able to override a state's votes.  

 

You aren't going to convince people so easily that have been emotionally manipulated to believe that it was stolen. They DO think their is evidence of fraud.  The problem is a large number of the population use gossip chains uncritically to gain "information" and spread it. Yet, I also believe in free speech very very strongly. So now what? 

 

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Just now, frogger said:

Our problem started before Donald Trump. It is more about the us versus them mentality and my side (yes, this includes the left) must always tell the truth.

Sure, we have lots of problems. But it’s impossible to talk about them if we can’t agree on basics. There is no longer a common reality to talk about.

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2 hours ago, Janeway said:

There were five people who died in DC on Jan 6 from the riot. 1 was a police officer, 1 was a woman who was shot by a police officer, and 3 were people with medical problems that died from them. No one from the DC riot went in to neighborhoods and shot children, attacked families, went after businesses. The riot was over within hours and the government has been extremely serious about going after those at the riot. They are even being put on the no-fly list and are being prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law. 

This is in contrast to the BLM riotS. As in, many riots over a course of several months and there had been many riots in the past. So many people have been murdered by BLM over the course of 2020 and the law has not concerned themselves with prosecuting. BLM has gone in to neighborhoods, gone after people who had nothing to do with anything, and it has gone on for months and no one has been brought in just for being there. There is a video of BLM people burning  homeless man's belongings and you can see people taking selfies and smiling during the whole thing. None of them have been arrested. Children have been murdered or left severely disabled from random BLM attacks. And it went on for months. The left politicians called it a "revolution" and says the violence is neccesary. With BLM going after the people, I felt fear. I still feel fear. The have no limits and the government and media pretty much encourages them to continue unchecked and not be held accountable. Leftist politicians and groups have bailed these terrorists out of jail to go back out and destroy. My tax dollars will, no doubt, be paying to repair what BLM does. And so many people died, and will continue to die, from BLM attacks.

So no, the stuff in DC did not phase me. I am not saying it is okay. But I never felt scared for my life over the few hours of one single riot in DC. The stuff with BLM/Antifa is what should be upsetting everyone and causing anxiety. And if it had been BLM attacking in DC, it would have left me unphased. At best, I might have felt that at least they were going after the ones they blame or who encourage them instead of children out riding their bikes. But nothing about the one little DC riot would have caused me anxiety. IF it had been BLM, the government would not have gone after them. They would have excused them as having a cause. If you are okay with BLM killing and rioting and plundering and so on and feel confident and no anxiety, but then feel all upset and scared over the one riot that never threatened you in DC, then your anxiety is misplaced. For the record, my sister is very left and her home was still damaged. She was not at home so she was not attacked, but her home was. BLM does not just go after conservatives. 

 

We are not supposed to talk politics on this thread. But it is clear that the anxiety is caused by what is going on politically. So I do not think this thread should continue. 

You do realize that 56 Metropoliton police officers were injured during the attack on the capitol, right? And  a lot of property damage was done in the capital.

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1 hour ago, frogger said:

Our problem started before Donald Trump. It is more about the us versus them mentality and my side (yes, this includes the left) must always tell the truth.

For the record, I really don't want it to be "us versus them." My only requirement for talking to someone seriously is for us to both be evidence-based and convinced by facts. 

That's why I gave the example of Joe Biden's election and Obama. I'm happy to talk to anyone at all who is interested in evidence. But if we can't even agree on who got elected after 60 court cases that were dismissed by people of all political stripes, then how can we have a conversation? If we can't even agree that Obama was a US citizen no matter what evidence he produces, then how can we talk? 

This is completely separate from conversations about, say, the deficit or whether local government or federal government or private companies are better at running things, which I have very limited priors about and am interested in discussing. But again... I can only discuss things with people who don't make a religion out of their politics. If you aren't interested in the answer unless it matches your biases, there are no conversations left to be had. 

Edited by Not_a_Number
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6 hours ago, Dreamergal said:

I absolutely second this and agree with every word. 

I was a panic COVID gardener and we attempted to grow things the "old fashioned" way. Never considered it before, fresh herbs were always available in whichever grocery store I went be it American, Indian, Chinese and of course salads. But because of COVID, we attempted a herb garden in the patio, some tomatoes, some berries. Initially all was fine, then it crashed and burned due to summer heat, lack of knowledge and a terrible black thumb. I cannot even grow salad leaves. If you are shocked such people exist, well you have not met me.

So we bought one initially, we have two now. We grow herbs. It is gardening for dummies level which works for me. 

Exactly, it is gardening for dummies! I really have no idea what I am doing, lol! But we have herbs from the AG and tomatoes in the deep water culture tubs, and that makes me happy. 

16105722676531767815720.jpg

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13 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

For the record, I really don't want it to be "us versus them." My only requirement for talking to someone seriously is for us to both be evidence-based and convinced by facts. 

That's why I gave the example of Joe Biden's election and Obama. I'm happy to talk to anyone at all who is interested in evidence. But if we can't even agree on who got elected after 60 court cases that were dismissed by people of all political stripes, then how can we have a conversation? If we can't even agree that Obama was a US citizen no matter what evidence he produces, then how can we talk? 

This is completely separate from conversations about, say, the deficit or whether local government or federal government or private companies are better at running things, which I have very limited priors about and am interested in discussing. But again... I can only discuss things with people who don't make a religion out of their politics. If you aren't interested in the answer unless it matches your biases, there are no conversations left to be had. 

I'm not implying you specifically. The average person works 40+ hours a week, has cars and homes to repair and kids to take to the doctor, dentist, and activities. They can't do the job of a journalist on top of everything else but my experience is if you want to know about something, you have to be your own journalist. As someone who has over 9000 posts, my guess is you can't really relate to someone who does nothing but work all day and ends up inadvertantly getting "info" when exhausted and scrolling through Facebook because you are too tired to do real work at the end of the day.  They often aren't wanting to actively work at that time and then are barraged with very emotional arguments.

 

I DO think that it is upsetting to the establishment that people can reach others without their big bucks and I think both good and bad information is spread by these means so I certainly don't want to squash free speech but we as a society haven't figured out good mechanisms for how to deal with it. By mechanism, that might mainly include educating children to challenge everything they read not just dealing with big institutions. We certainly aren't the only country attempting to figure out how to deal with all this. Some clamp down hard to keep control. I don't think we want that. 

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2 minutes ago, prairiewindmomma said:

Your deep water culture tubs look amazing! Do you have a link?

Like, to buy them? No, they are rubbermaid bins that DH adapted. I could post some pics of the whole thing later if people are interested? Kiddo has the laptop for a zoom class, so I can't do it right now 🙂

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12 minutes ago, Dreamergal said:

Well, I am gardening for dummies 😊. You are doing hydroponics as well. So totally different and nothing dummy about it 😃

I still struggle with getting lettuce growing! Everyone says how easy lettuce is to grow, and we are only 50% successful here! 😅

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5 minutes ago, MissLemon said:

Like, to buy them? No, they are rubbermaid bins that DH adapted. I could post some pics of the whole thing later if people are interested? Kiddo has the laptop for a zoom class, so I can't do it right now 🙂

Plz. I know Home Depot sells aerators for use in bins like that, but I haven’t looked at smaller scale hydroponics for a while.

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4 hours ago, Janeway said:

There were five people who died in DC on Jan 6 from the riot. 1 was a police officer, 1 was a woman who was shot by a police officer, and 3 were people with medical problems that died from them.  

Being trampled to death is in fact not considered dying from a pre-existing medical problem. 

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6 minutes ago, katilac said:

Being trampled to death is in fact not considered dying from a pre-existing medical problem. 

Nor is tasing yourself and having a heart attack.  

I think that everyone who dies dies from medical problems.  I mean, the bullet hole in Ashli Babbitt was a medical problem.  If we're going to say that people who die from medical problems don't count, we'll be up there with the person who told me that we shouldn't count covid deaths from people who "will die anyway".  

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3 hours ago, Katy said:

What everyone misses about the Obama was born in Kenya argument: it wouldn’t matter if he was. His mother was still a citizen, so he is a natural born citizen. Where you are born has nothing to do with it unless neither of your parents are citizens. 

For what it's worth, that's not completely true. If you're born abroad to US citizens, your parents need to have been resident in the United States for a certain period of time (I think it is one year but it also varies depending on whether both parents were citizens) in order to be able to pass on their US citizenship to you.

I know that's not at all the point you're making and I'm sorry to sidetrack. I recently learned this and I found it kind of unsettling, so I'm sharing! But yes, in Obama's case it wouldn't matter at all where he was born because his mother was a citizen AND had lived in the US.

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23 minutes ago, Little Green Leaves said:

For what it's worth, that's not completely true. If you're born abroad to US citizens, your parents need to have been resident in the United States for a certain period of time (I think it is one year but it also varies depending on whether both parents were citizens) in order to be able to pass on their US citizenship to you.

I know that's not at all the point you're making and I'm sorry to sidetrack. I recently learned this and I found it kind of unsettling, so I'm sharing! But yes, in Obama's case it wouldn't matter at all where he was born because his mother was a citizen AND had lived in the US.

So here's the actual law for a child born to a US citizen mother, who is married to an alien, and is born outside of the US.

From here: 


https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/legal/travel-legal-considerations/us-citizenship/Acquisition-US-Citizenship-Child-Born-Abroad.html#:~:text=A person born abroad in,prior to the person's birth.

 

A person born abroad in wedlock to a U.S. citizen and an alien acquires U.S. citizenship at birth if the U.S. citizen parent has been physically present in the United States or one of its outlying possessions prior to the person’s birth for the period required by the statute in effect when the person was born (INA 301(g), formerly INA 301(a)(7)). 

For birth on or after November 14, 1986, the U.S. citizen parent must have been physically present in the United States or one of its outlying possessions for five years prior to the person’s birth, at least two of which were after the age of 14.

For birth between December 24, 1952 and November 13, 1986, the U.S. citizen parent must have been physically present in the United States or one of its outlying possessions for 10 years prior to the person’s birth, at least five of which were after the age of 14 for the person to acquire U.S. citizenship at birth. The U.S. citizen parent must be the genetic or the gestational parent and the legal parent of the child under local law at the time and place of the child’s birth to transmit U.S. citizenship.



Obama's mother was 18 when he was born, so even if his mother had flown to Kenya the day before his birth, she would only have been in the US for 4 years plus some days, after her 14th birthday.  

So, he wouldn't have gotten citizenship at birth if he was born in Kenya.  Of course, he wasn't born in Kenya.

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1 hour ago, frogger said:

As someone who has over 9000 posts, my guess is you can't really relate to someone who does nothing but work all day and ends up inadvertantly getting "info" when exhausted and scrolling through Facebook because you are too tired to do real work at the end of the day. 

I’m not really sure what you’re saying here, but it seems vaguely ad hominem. I have a job that allows for easy interstitial times and I relax by posting on here, but I have a busy life and can easily imagine having no energy at the end of the day — as is, I don’t read new books anymore because THIS is the one thing I do with the time I’m not working and not homeschooling and not taking care of household tasks. I understand feeling overwhelmed extremely well.

And no, I don’t think the reason people wind up with bad information is because they are too busy to be journalists. It’s because sloppy habits of mind and excessive attachments to their own opinions make they prey to conspiracies. That’s why. 

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1 hour ago, Not_a_Number said:

For the record, I really don't want it to be "us versus them." My only requirement for talking to someone seriously is for us to both be evidence-based and convinced by facts. 

...

This is completely separate from conversations about, say, the deficit or whether local government or federal government or private companies are better at running things, which I have very limited priors about and am interested in discussing. But again... I can only discuss things with people who don't make a religion out of their politics. If you aren't interested in the answer unless it matches your biases, there are no conversations left to be had. 

Well the problem is that anyone who voted for ___ is deemed to have voted for ___ because they like the most negative aspects of ___.  It never gets to whether or not ___ had the better chance of improving non-political things.  Whether approach xyz to job growth or trade negotiations or whatever could be good for the country.  Since the beginning of 2016, at least half of the country has had zero interest in that kind of discussion.  If one dares to bring up something positive ___ has done, it comes back to "well maybe you care more about ___ than morals, but I ...."

In other words, it isn't just one sub-group that has a history of making a religion out of their politics (to borrow your words).

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6 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

I’m not really sure what you’re saying here, but it seems vaguely ad hominem. I have a job that allows for easy interstitial times and I relax by posting on here, but I have a busy life and can easily imagine having no energy at the end of the day — as is, I don’t read new books anymore because THIS is the one thing I do with the time I’m not working and not homeschooling and not taking care of household tasks. I understand feeling overwhelmed extremely well.

And no, I don’t think the reason people wind up with bad information is because they are too busy to be journalists. It’s because sloppy habits of mind and excessive attachments to their own opinions make they prey to conspiracies. That’s why. 

It wasn't an ad hominem . I was actually saying I don't think that you are part of the problem that I was talking about. I'm simply asking you to look at other people's situations. 

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26 minutes ago, BaseballandHockey said:

So here's the actual law for a child born to a US citizen mother, who is married to an alien, and is born outside of the US.

From here: 


https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/legal/travel-legal-considerations/us-citizenship/Acquisition-US-Citizenship-Child-Born-Abroad.html#:~:text=A person born abroad in,prior to the person's birth.

 

A person born abroad in wedlock to a U.S. citizen and an alien acquires U.S. citizenship at birth if the U.S. citizen parent has been physically present in the United States or one of its outlying possessions prior to the person’s birth for the period required by the statute in effect when the person was born (INA 301(g), formerly INA 301(a)(7)). 

For birth on or after November 14, 1986, the U.S. citizen parent must have been physically present in the United States or one of its outlying possessions for five years prior to the person’s birth, at least two of which were after the age of 14.

For birth between December 24, 1952 and November 13, 1986, the U.S. citizen parent must have been physically present in the United States or one of its outlying possessions for 10 years prior to the person’s birth, at least five of which were after the age of 14 for the person to acquire U.S. citizenship at birth. The U.S. citizen parent must be the genetic or the gestational parent and the legal parent of the child under local law at the time and place of the child’s birth to transmit U.S. citizenship.



Obama's mother was 18 when he was born, so even if his mother had flown to Kenya the day before his birth, she would only have been in the US for 4 years plus some days, after her 14th birthday.  

So, he wouldn't have gotten citizenship at birth if he was born in Kenya.  Of course, he wasn't born in Kenya.

First, let me say that I never bought into the "Obama is not a citizen" rhetoric.

That said, I thought his parents were not married.  I didn't know it could matter until I just saw your post above.

I would also note that different states have different rules about this also.

Just an irrelevant aside - but it is interesting what we don't know about citizenship in the USA.  It was taught to me in high school, but apparently in a shorthand version.  (I just thought if either parent was a citizen OR you were born in the US, you were a US citizen.  About a year or 2 ago I read that it matters whether your citizen parent has lived long enough in the US.)

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2 minutes ago, frogger said:

It wasn't an ad hominem . I was actually saying I don't think that you are part of the problem that I was talking about. I'm simply asking you to look at other people's situations. 

I do think about other people's situations. That's what I'm saying. I don't think it's because they are too busy: it's because they don't spend ANY time thinking critically about the world. 

Look, it's "fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, shame on you." If you apply that standard, a lot of people's theories of the world simply crumble. But if you decide to ignore when you're lied to over and over and over and over again, then it's not because you don't have enough information and enough time. It's because you decided to close your eyes to evidence because a certain world view is more comfortable. 

ETA: and thanks for clarifying it wasn't ad hominem 🙂 . 

Edited by Not_a_Number
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1 hour ago, frogger said:

 As someone who has over 9000 posts, my guess is you can't really relate to someone who does nothing but work all day and ends up inadvertantly getting "info" when exhausted and scrolling through Facebook because you are too tired to do real work at the end of the day.   

I can promise you that there are many board members who work all day and have over 9000 posts.

Heck, there are board members who work full time, homeschool full time, and still post prolifically!

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6 minutes ago, SKL said:

Well the problem is that anyone who voted for ___ is deemed to have voted for ___ because they like the most negative aspects of ___.  It never gets to whether or not ___ had the better chance of improving non-political things.  Whether approach xyz to job growth or trade negotiations or whatever could be good for the country.  Since the beginning of 2016, at least half of the country has had zero interest in that kind of discussion.  If one dares to bring up something positive ___ has done, it comes back to "well maybe you care more about ___ than morals, but I ...."

In other words, it isn't just one sub-group that has a history of making a religion out of their politics (to borrow your words).

Different states cannot have rules about U.S. Citizenship. It's not an issue over which they have jurisdiction.

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2 minutes ago, katilac said:

I can promise you that there are many board members who work all day and have over 9000 posts.

Heck, there are board members who work full time, homeschool full time, and still post prolifically!

Yep.  I am not exactly proud of how often I get distracted from work and come here ....

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2 hours ago, SKL said:

First, let me say that I never bought into the "Obama is not a citizen" rhetoric.

That said, I thought his parents were not married.  I didn't know it could matter until I just saw your post above.

I would also note that different states have different rules about this also.

Just an irrelevant aside - but it is interesting what we don't know about citizenship in the USA.  It was taught to me in high school, but apparently in a shorthand version.  (I just thought if either parent was a citizen, you were.  About a year or 2 ago I read that it matters whether your citizen parent has lived long enough in the US.)

His parents were married, the rumor that they weren't is another falsehood much like him being Muslim or born in Kenya.  Both are lies spread by people seeking to discredit Obama.  Ironically if someone believes both lies, then the two lies cancel each other out. 

Ironically, if Obama's parents weren't married, and he had been born in Kenya, then he would have been a citizen, because the rules for an umarried citizen mother is that she has to have been resident in the US for one year.  But Obama's parents were married.  

Different states can not have different rules about US citizenship.  US citizenship is a federal matter, governed by federal law.  

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11 minutes ago, SKL said:

 Just an irrelevant aside - but it is interesting what we don't know about citizenship in the USA.  It was taught to me in high school, but apparently in a shorthand version.  

I promise I'm not directing this at you, but I must post this meme every time someone reminds me of it: 

Stop saying, "They didn't teach us that in school." Yes, they did. You were  talking. - iFunny :)

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Just now, katilac said:

I can promise you that there are many board members who work all day and have over 9000 posts.

Heck, there are board members who work full time, homeschool full time, and still post prolifically!

Well, many working people are doing things that actually require sustained full attention all day. You don't get a break to check a post on a processing plant line. This does not mean people aren't busy who are home but as a homeschooler of 4, who has also brought in an income, I know I'm privileged.  

 

 

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2 minutes ago, frogger said:

Well, many working people are doing things that actually require sustained full attention all day. You don't get a break to check a post on a processing plant line. This does not mean people aren't busy who are home but as a homeschooler of 4, who has also brought in an income, I know I'm privileged.  

But maybe you get in the car to the listen to the radio... It doesn't have to be talk radio. It can be NPR. It doesn't have to be Facebook full of incendiary memes at night. It can be a good book... or an Agatha Christie, for that matter, or other mystery, which is what I tend to read after long and frankly very tiring days. 

I refuse to absolve people of responsibility. It's one thing to be uninformed and another to be MISinformed.  

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1 minute ago, frogger said:

Well, many working people are doing things that actually require sustained full attention all day. You don't get a break to check a post on a processing plant line. This does not mean people aren't busy who are home but as a homeschooler of 4, who has also brought in an income, I know I'm privileged.  

Sure, there are all kinds of situations. I just thought it sounded a bit snarky to point out someone's post count as though it had to mean they don't work all day. 

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8 minutes ago, katilac said:

I promise I'm not directing this at you, but I must post this meme every time someone reminds me of it: 

Stop saying, "They didn't teach us that in school." Yes, they did. You were  talking. - iFunny :)

LOL if only that were true.  Looking back at gen ed textbooks (9th grade Civics was the class), it is disturbing how much they water things down.  And on to another irrelevant peeve of mine - even the now popular "translations" of the Bible are so "simplified" that much of the meaning is lost.

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20 minutes ago, BaseballandHockey said:

His parents were married, the fact that they weren't is another falsehood much like him being Muslim or born in Kenya.  Both are lies spread by people seeking to discredit Obama.  Ironically if someone believes both lies, then the two lies cancel each other out. 

Ironically, if Obama's parents weren't married, and he had been born in Kenya, then he would have been a citizen, because the rules for an umarried citizen mother is that she has to have been resident in the US for one year.  But Obama's parents were married. 

OK, I see why there was controversy about the marital status - apparently the dad was already married to someone else, conceived a child out of wedlock, married the 2nd time while still married to the 1st wife ... but whatever ... I still think citizenship of the baby was clear.

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Just now, Happy2BaMom said:

I just wanna say that I’ve got whiplash from trying to follow the topics on this thread......

Yeah, I've given up on trying to bring it around to the original topic. People seem determined to debate politics in all spaces.  

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1 minute ago, MissLemon said:

Yeah, I've given up on trying to bring it around to the original topic. People seem determined to debate politics in all spaces.  

The problem is that the anxiety in this case feels political to people. I wish it didn't, but it does. 

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3 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

The problem is that the anxiety in this case feels political to people. I wish it didn't, but it does. 

The problem is that it was requested to get back on topic, and y'all took the bait and went right back to arguing after being asked to stop. 

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I took myself for a drive the other day. The kids were driving me bonkers, it’s been seemingly raining 24/7 for weeks, and it isn’t safe to really be indoors anywhere. I listened to the radio and just spent some time away. Switching environments is helpful.

I also have developed an Essie nail polish habit. It’s fun to collect them one at a time, and the act of doing my nails can’t be rushed. It feels like self care to me.

 

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11 minutes ago, MissLemon said:

The problem is that it was requested to get back on topic, and y'all took the bait and went right back to arguing after being asked to stop. 

Yeah, that's another part of the problem 😛 . 

Fine. I'll try to leave the posts with the blatant disinformation be. I doubt everyone will, though -- it just rankles. 

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I’ve found a nice substitute for doomscrolling....watching 80’s country & pop music videos on YT. 

I just finished a string of Alabama, REM and Huey Lewis hits. 
 

The music then was good even if the hair was not!
 

 

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We are getting our nostalgia on and watching Cobra Kai. They kind of pretend that some of the protagonists were catapulted from the 80s, and we're quite enjoying their reactions to Gen Z. 

Also, whoever thought of having Daniel Larusso be a car salesman who kicks the competition, chops prices, and gives every customer a bonsai tree is a genius. 

13 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

 We used to go for drives but I think we'll stop since we got pulled over last time 😞 . 

For speeding? For matching the description of a wanted perp? For derailing threads? 

48 minutes ago, MissLemon said:

The problem is that it was requested to get back on topic, and y'all took the bait and went right back to arguing after being asked to stop. 

Many brave people have fought the battle against thread drift, but few have won. 

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17 minutes ago, SKL said:

Well the problem is that anyone who voted for ___ is deemed to have voted for ___ because they like the most negative aspects of ___.  It never gets to whether or not ___ had the better chance of improving non-political things.  Whether approach xyz to job growth or trade negotiations or whatever could be good for the country.  Since the beginning of 2016, at least half of the country has had zero interest in that kind of discussion.  If one dares to bring up something positive ___ has done, it comes back to "well maybe you care more about ___ than morals, but I ...."

In other words, it isn't just one sub-group that has a history of making a religion out of their politics (to borrow your words).

 While I disagree that it’s assumed that someone who votes for a particular candidate did it because they like the most negative aspects of them, a significant number of prominent lifelong Republican leaders (governors, senators, representatives, national security officials, military leaders, etc) have come out strongly to say that no conservative principle, policy, or judge is worth having such a person as the leader of their party and the country for many reasons, not the least of which is the profound risk to our democratic norms and institutions. They obviously have a line in the sand they will not cross even if their party can win and get the policies and principles they feel are best for the country debated or even enacted and their preferred judges seated. Personally, I have great admiration for such people and wish the majority of the country felt this way, and especially our leaders at all levels. I’m sure some others might disagree and think almost any leader is fine.

And while there is certainly a subset of presidential voters who love everything about him, I think a larger group disapproves of some of his behavior but likes some or all of his policies, achievements, etc. I think most people are well aware of this. But polls also pretty clearly show that a big chunk of both groups believe some or all of the lies, disinformation, and propaganda concerning the “stolen” election and what will happen if Democrats win. So it’s pretty darn difficult to have any substantive policy discussions when people can’t remotely agree on basic facts.

Plus, people are simply not going to always agree on what is best for the country (likely why we have different political parties) or even who is responsible for it. Or might agree that the immediate outcome is positive, but is outweighed by negative long term repercussions. Or even vice versa. So while one person might see a certain approach or outcome as unambiguously good, others might disagree for a variety of reasons.

 

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1 hour ago, Not_a_Number said:

I've started doing the NY Times Spelling Bee... anyone else do it? 

We used to go for drives but I think we'll stop since we got pulled over last time 😞 . 

I’ve been doing it for months, but only the free version. That and the small crossword are part of my nighttime routine.

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7 minutes ago, Frances said:

I’ve been doing it for months, but only the free version. That and the small crossword are part of my nighttime routine.

What's the difference between the free version and the non-free? I think I have a subscription, so I do whatever's on that. 

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