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Where online will we find today’s proceedings at the Capitol?


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So it was just bothering me too much and I had to come back to this. There are a lot of little digs and incendiary words, but I’m going to ignore all that and just get to the meat of the actual positi

It's depressing that anyone on this board - a board that's really, at its core, dedicated to logic and reason and self-education - can believe that the crowd was somehow made up significantly or subst

I had originally written something on this, but deleted it in favor of responding to something more relevant. But I keep coming back to this because I think the larger picture of passing the buck is s

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1 minute ago, TCB said:

So many people around me are ringing their hands and predicting all kinds of terrible things now that their side has lost. I see a lot of paranoia everywhere. Maybe I’m oblivious, but I do feel the level headed, measured approach is probably better.

An approach that's EVIDENCE-BASED is better. But as I said, sometimes the house really IS on fire, and you don't want to be the "This is fine" dog.

I don't want to get too political, but you can imagine what people might have been scared of a few years ago... and I can't say they were wrong. If anything, people weren't worried enough. 

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1 hour ago, PeterPan said:

Well shh, but as a voter of that party I didn't look at a crowd of people carrying shields, wearing horns, having communist tattoos, and red flags (Trump flags are blue) and think "Ooo those are my people!" kwim? Clearly *some* of the people were there infiltrating. I have no clue how many. The only face recognition ID I've seen is saying two. There may have been more, but that doesn't explain all the people who went in.

To me the better question is why there wasn't adequate security to start with. Trump said he wanted 1 million people. Why wouldn't you have adequate policing? And anyone who broke the law should have been arrested. Letting them go is no better than overlooking the lawlessness in other places by other groups, and it doesn't give you the chance to sort out clearly who was responsible. 

There's a lot of mess to go around, and it's a very sad day. 

I had originally written something on this, but deleted it in favor of responding to something more relevant. But I keep coming back to this because I think the larger picture of passing the buck is so dangerous.

You didn't see yourself in these people. (that's a good thing)

But, you DID see Trump supporters.

You're having trouble reconciling this, because you don't want to be grouped with violent people, but unfortunately that does not change it.

Claiming it  *clearly* must be infiltrators is a self-defense mechanism (an understandable one, btw), but it is not a reality-based idea. 

I'm sorry, I know it is hard to be grouped with people you disagree with. But instead of trying to pass the blame to a different group, strong repudiation is necessary, not just condemn the actions with a "whoever did it".

Anything less is only giving permission to your fellow supporters to do as they want and quietly understand that others will let them get away without consequences.

I mean, we had live footage, still photographs, people posting their plans before the day, people posting themselves on IG and FB and Twitter in the act, people bragging about it afterwards, and others are *still* saying, "Well, it couldn't have been Trump supporters." 

And that there's the pitfall. At some point we can't pass the buck, and trying to pass this buck to "the other side" is not acceptable. If the buck is so bad that you don't want to hold onto it, it's unconscionable to pass it to someone else. Passing the buck becomes complicit with and an accessory to the act. 

This is where passing the buck to this point has gotten us. Seriously, there's no more excuses, not more "but what ifs" left to hide behind.

 

(eta irrelevant detail, but it's bothering me: Trump's merch is red. Red hats, red shirts, red everything. A red flag is not a "red flag" of infiltration even if he sells some blue flags.)

Edited by Moonhawk
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3 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

In protective custody.

If you’re asking about the months and years leading up to this, it’s pretty clear that there’s been a deliberate effort to minimize the ongoing incitement. People inclined to discuss that openly weren’t listened to. People participating in the incitement are still lying about it. I don’t think *now* is the time to be extra blasé about what’s happened. We witnessed a coup attempt, an insurrection, live on TV. That’s something to be worked up about. It deserves a swift response.

Sorry I don’t mean to be blasé. I do think it was a terrible and ridiculous thing. I just find the extreme paranoia difficult to understand. I’ve invested quite a bit of time and energy in trying to help my kids see that often things work out, and don’t turn out to be as awful as you think they’re going to be. Now of course I realize there are exceptions, but I feel like one of the great things about human beings is that they are resilient and can often figure things out. 
I admit I’ve been having some difficulty maintaining that optimism with the current state of things with Covid, so maybe it’s just harder for me to imagine total political catastrophe.

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Actually, at least three of the individuals who were breaking glass and in the actual building have been photo ID’d as having participated in antifa rallies, I believe all in Philly. Like, still picture from CNN in one frame and multiple tagged photos from timelines and blogs of other protests from the summer in the other. That does seem to be the developing theme as this is examined, from arrests and evidence. I don’t think that’s the bulk of the cohort by any means, but the bulk also did not damage property or throw poles and rocks at police.

I assume more will be known in the coming days, that’s how this tends to go.

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Just now, TCB said:

Sorry I don’t mean to be blasé. I do think it was a terrible and ridiculous thing. I just find the extreme paranoia difficult to understand. I’ve invested quite a bit of time and energy in trying to help my kids see that often things work out, and don’t turn out to be as awful as you think they’re going to be. Now of course I realize there are exceptions, but I feel like one of the great things about human beings is that they are resilient and can often figure things out. 
I admit I’ve been having some difficulty maintaining that optimism with the current state of things with Covid, so maybe it’s just harder for me to imagine total political catastrophe.

I just don’t know anymore. I have tried to maintain some hope that good governance can be restored. I’m not sure anymore. I see some people already distancing themselves from what they’ve done and what others have done in their name, some in denial, some saying I told you so...none of which really gets us closer to seeing the world through equally clear (altho not the same Rx) lenses. I have ALWAYS felt more vulnerable in the face of this threat and I haven’t felt that threat diminish at all. Things don’t always work out. We’ve already had 350K casualties already. It’s going to be a long uphill climb.

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20 minutes ago, Corraleno said:

And it's not as if the plan to storm the capitol was a big secret that only intelligence agencies knew about — this was openly discussed and planned for on various RW forums, right down to details like which route to take and which radio frequencies to use for communications. Everyone knew this was going to happen, and the administration not only did NOTHING to prevent it, they made a conscious decision to leave the Capitol police to fend for themselves until well after someone had been killed. 

Yes.

And when you stop to think about why that was..... I think if we can be honest and soul-searching, books should be written about that.

I keep thinking about the Beer Hall Putsch and I'm wondering what rhetoric is going to come out of this. If people don't know about that event, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beer_Hall_Putsch

ETA: Putsch in my head translates to coup.  I'm not a great German speaker though, so feel free to correct me if I am wrong.

Edited by prairiewindmomma
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TAFKA Pastry — please provide a link.  This has been lied about so if there is new evidence — it would be great to see a link.  

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18 minutes ago, Corraleno said:

And it's not as if the plan to storm the capitol was a big secret that only intelligence agencies knew about — this was openly discussed and planned for on various RW forums, right down to details like which route to take and which radio frequencies to use for communications. Everyone knew this was going to happen, and the administration not only did NOTHING to prevent it, they made a conscious decision to leave the Capitol police to fend for themselves until well after someone had been killed. 

An investigation is certainly in order. It may well be that significant individuals intended for harm to come to Congress members. Elaine Chao has just resigned too. The decision not to staff the Capitol appropriately is inexplicable.

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10 minutes ago, TCB said:

Sorry I don’t mean to be blasé. I do think it was a terrible and ridiculous thing. I just find the extreme paranoia difficult to understand. I’ve invested quite a bit of time and energy in trying to help my kids see that often things work out, and don’t turn out to be as awful as you think they’re going to be. Now of course I realize there are exceptions, but I feel like one of the great things about human beings is that they are resilient and can often figure things out. 
I admit I’ve been having some difficulty maintaining that optimism with the current state of things with Covid, so maybe it’s just harder for me to imagine total political catastrophe.

History certainly has examples of total political catastrophe starting out in an eerily similar manner. And people who thought "oh, things won't get that bad" were in for a very rude awakening.

I am a German immigrant and very conversant in my country's history where that played out in horrifying ways and the "oh it won't be so bad" folks were so incredibly wrong.
I am also a survivor of a communist regime.

yes, often things do turn out way more awful that imagined.

Edited by regentrude
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2 hours ago, Sneezyone said:

It’s easy to believe the lies. The lies are backed by powerful people with big microphones who have convinced them that a living man is the messiah (for their own selfish, power-grubbing reasons). The antifa lies started spreading before the smoke cleared...literally...over DC. In hotel lobbies and on DC street corners people sought someone to blame other than themselves. Don’t believe your eyes, they were told. Well, they don’t. There was almost a fistfight on the house floor this morning when someone objected to their arguments being characterized as lies. People are so invested in the lies it would take a miracle to get them to embrace truth. That old thread resurrected from November reminded me that those same believers exist here too. It’s not just kooks. This is years upon years of conditioning at work.

A friend of mine is a Republican voter and her daughter works on the hill for an R member. She had to delete 5 apologists from her friends list yesterday after they defended this behavior and blamed Pelosi and Antifa. Her daughter was IN IMMEDIATE DANGER and all these folks, presumably friends, wanted to kvetch about were lies.

I must admit that the whole antifa/Qanon stuff was a learning curve for me. 

1 hour ago, kand said:

I don’t know if this is an okay line of discussion, but I’m hoping so if I make no judgement statements. I ended up down a path on Twitter last night with scads of people who support the current president and what happened yesterday talking about how they don’t support the GOP, only Trump. That they are Populists, not Republicans, that Trump finally showed them what the Republican Party was, and they could never support that, they only support him. I really don’t know what the effect will be on the next big election. I expect we could see a new party of this kind, which will likely divide what would previously have been Republican voters.  

That’s terrifying. 

42 minutes ago, kand said:

It is sad. She wasn’t just a girl, she was 35 years old. The fact that a 35 year old Air Force veteran gets involved to this point with Trump and QAnon is because it is a cult. People can be made to believe all kinds of things and do all kinds of things once they go down that road 😞. Part of our task if we hope to recover our nation is to learn how to help people find their way back out of a cult. Most people don’t leave voluntarily. 

I had a discussion with someone about this yesterday as events were unfolding, and she expressed the same thought, that Trumpism is a cult. I believe it. 

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On a lighter, less depressing note: am I the only one who thinks the thread title turned out to be quite funny, considering that the answer is : "every single news outlet of the world"?

Edited by regentrude
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It's depressing that anyone on this board - a board that's really, at its core, dedicated to logic and reason and self-education - can believe that the crowd was somehow made up significantly or substantially by people who declare the exact antithetical viewpoints of the views the people in the crowd asserted, especially when discussions of this exact action were made openly and repeatedly online in the lead up. I understand that some people can hold differing views, but these are just conspiratorial, irrational views.

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Except, I can totally relate. We canceled our DirecTV after the election. (We literally hadn't watched it since the previous presidential election.) I was once again desperately trying to figure out how to watch CNN on our Samsung Smart TV (if anyone knows, please, clue me in). Luckily, CNN allowed free streaming of the coverage on the mobile app not too terribly long after it all started. (ETA: Apparently, you can't simply buy a subscription to CCNgo like you can movie, etc. channels.)
 

9 minutes ago, regentrude said:

On a lighter, less depressing note: am I the only one who thinks the thread title is quite funny, considering that the answer is : "every single news outlet of the world"?

 

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Interesting. I can't wait to read an analysis on this. I would assume the decision was made alongside her husband.

18 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

An investigation is certainly in order. It may well be that significant individuals intended for harm to come to Congress members. Elaine Chao has just resigned too. The decision not to staff the Capitol appropriately is inexplicable.

 

Edited by pitterpatter
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21 minutes ago, TAFKAPastry said:

Actually, at least three of the individuals who were breaking glass and in the actual building have been photo ID’d as having participated in antifa rallies, I believe all in Philly. Like, still picture from CNN in one frame and multiple tagged photos from timelines and blogs of other protests from the summer in the other. That does seem to be the developing theme as this is examined, from arrests and evidence. I don’t think that’s the bulk of the cohort by any means, but the bulk also did not damage property or throw poles and rocks at police.

I assume more will be known in the coming days, that’s how this tends to go.

Ah, the ol' "I didn't break in, just entered after someone else broke in" defense. 

I'm sorry, I just do not see how this is helping the argument. So, if there was one undercover operator, even just one, we are supposed to throw our hands up and say it was a setup. It doesn't work that way.

Again: if it was a setup, every single other person in that crowd should have been holding that person back saying, "No, No, We don't do that." I want that footage before we discuss this "possibility" any further.

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9 minutes ago, regentrude said:

On a lighter, less depressing note: am I the only one who thinks the thread title turned out to be quite funny, considering that the answer is : "every single news outlet of the world"?

😂😂😂

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27 minutes ago, TCB said:

To be honest I wasn’t just talking about politicians. So many people around me are wringing their hands and predicting all kinds of terrible things now that their side has lost. I see a lot of paranoia everywhere. Maybe I’m oblivious, but I do feel the level headed, measured approach is probably better.

Because they are repeatedly fed lies, propaganda, and disinformation by those who want to remain in power. The subject matter just changes. They aren’t seeing the forest through the trees. Unless a significant number of people on the same side rise up and start denouncing all of the lies and misinformation, nothing will change. 

Recent events clearly show that lots of people were right not just four years ago but ever since about what would happen. They weren’t just being paranoid. They were right. But a significant chunk of our country, including lots of elected leaders, kept rationalizing and making excuses, and then many even embraced all of it and joined in. They put party over country and didn’t listen even when many within their own party tried to get them to see the light. The ends justified any means seemed to be the new norm. And so here we are.

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2 hours ago, PeterPan said:

Well shh, but as a voter of that party I didn't look at a crowd of people carrying shields, wearing horns, having communist tattoos, and red flags (Trump flags are blue) and think "Ooo those are my people!" kwim? Clearly *some* of the people were there infiltrating. I have no clue how many. The only face recognition ID I've seen is saying two. There may have been more, but that doesn't explain all the people who went in.

To me the better question is why there wasn't adequate security to start with. Trump said he wanted 1 million people. Why wouldn't you have adequate policing? And anyone who broke the law should have been arrested. Letting them go is no better than overlooking the lawlessness in other places by other groups, and it doesn't give you the chance to sort out clearly who was responsible. 

There's a lot of mess to go around, and it's a very sad day. 

The facial ID company referenced says it's  a lie.https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/craigsilverman/facial-recognition-antifa-washington-times-false

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53 minutes ago, TCB said:

Maybe I’ve lived a charmed life lol, but I’ve found, in my 56 years that things very often don’t change as much as you think they will, and that often things do end up working out to a reasonable degree. I’m talking about in reasonably democratic countries, as I have no experience of totalitarian regimes.

A "reasonably democratic country" can turn into a totalitarian regime very quickly.
The institutions we have created to safeguard democracy are very, very vulnerable.

Edited by regentrude
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I read so so much when I was a teen. And although I can't tell you a single title all of this has the same feeling as a lot of the historical novels I read where one day everything was fine and the BAM everything changed and the world was at war or a government had collapsed and life was never the same again.

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Yesterday, the United States lost its official designation as a democracy and as the oldest continuously functioning democracy in the world, as deemed by worldwide political scientists.  

 

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I find the "la, la, la, everything will be fine" attitude jarringly hilarious given where we are today. 

Anyone worn a mask today yet, while avoiding other people? If not, how about yesterday? Would you have said that this is where you'd be a year ago? Would you have had ANY frikking idea? 

Yep. That's how good you (and I, and the rest of us) are at predicting the future. 

So what makes you think you know what happens next with this political unrest? 

Edited by Not_a_Number
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46 minutes ago, TCB said:

Sorry I don’t mean to be blasé. I do think it was a terrible and ridiculous thing. I just find the extreme paranoia difficult to understand. I’ve invested quite a bit of time and energy in trying to help my kids see that often things work out, and don’t turn out to be as awful as you think they’re going to be. Now of course I realize there are exceptions, but I feel like one of the great things about human beings is that they are resilient and can often figure things out. 

I think one side of this LOST that perspective four years ago, voted for “win at any cost” and is various states of reckoning or not reckoning with the price tag of that decision. Cool heads were ignored in the lead up to 2016. There are and have been voices mocked and sidelined for four years who were espousing a cool head view because it meant critiquing the “panic buy” candidate who was going to save the country, motherhood, apple pie, and American Christianity. If cool head = clear-eyed rebuke and a discussion of what goods were voted for in 2016 at all levels of leadership, those rebukes were scoffed at. Since then, a few voices have capitulated or wavered, sadly, but many cut ties with the establishment to save their own credibility.

On a CC note, leadership has been all over the map but sadly lacking a lot of the time or waffling. 

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17 hours ago, Terabith said:

There has been discussion about starting Civil War Part 2 Electric Boogaloo for at least two years.  At least some of the protestors were following the playbook for that.  

I'm not adding anything useful. But the bolded made me 🤣🤣🤣

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Just now, Innisfree said:

This is disappointing. She could have stayed and helped invoke the 25th Amendment.

You can count the principled and consistent profiles in courage on one hand.

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14 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

Great. We have members ON THIS BOARD claiming it was antifa. Without evidence, at that.

And responding to requests for links with "Well, google it".

No, it doesn't work that way. YOU come here with the extraordinary claim, YOU have the burden of proof.

Sure, false flag operations can happen. I frankly don't think any of the people photographing themselves, unmasked, in the capitol are capable of that level of coherent thought and planning - but then, they did manage to break in, so what do I know? Well, I know this - false flag operations can happen, but that mere fact doesn't mean that everything that "our side" does is really a false flag operation by our ideological opponents.

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I will also say as someone who was on the edge of the Minneapolis riots, there were arrests made in conjunction associated with Boogoloo Boys, Aryan Cowboys, and known vocal Trump supporters.  Plenty of arrests of white people not from the immediate area.  There is way more that went down in inciting violence during those days than will ever come out.  People don't burn their own neighborhoods.  I saw some very weird stuff in my own neighborhood and broad reports on neighborhood groups.   

This is one of the photos making the rounds.  Yes he was at a BLM event as a counter protester.  But he's a very vocal right wing qanon  activist.  So there are reasons people might be seen at multiple events.  That doesn't make someone an actor, plant, etc.  

https://www.reuters.com/article/uk-factcheck-protester-capitol-antifa-qa/fact-check-man-with-painted-face-wearing-fur-and-horns-rallied-for-trump-and-qanon-not-antifa-or-blm-idUSKBN29C0BP

There is zero actual evidence antifa or blm was involved in DC. 

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(To be clear, "our side" is in quotes because I abhor everything those folks do and stand for, with every fiber of my being. In so many ways. I'd spell it out for you, but... politics.)

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4 minutes ago, Innisfree said:

This is disappointing. She could have stayed and helped invoke the 25th Amendment.

Agree, cabinet members resigning right now is a cop out IMO.

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1 minute ago, Tanaqui said:

And responding to requests for links with "Well, google it".

No, it doesn't work that way. YOU come here with the extraordinary claim, YOU have the burden of proof.

 

Yeah, saying anything to the effect of "you can Google it yourself" is always a sure giveaway. It's almost funny, except the willful idiocy ceased to be funny a very long time ago.

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This is exactly why I want to read an analysis. I wonder whether she resigned so she wouldn't have to vote.

ETA: If Mitch McConnell is supposed to be the "best" political strategist, I'm wondering what his strategy is in relation to his wife resigning.

12 minutes ago, Innisfree said:

This is disappointing. She could have stayed and helped invoke the 25th Amendment.

 

Edited by pitterpatter
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2 hours ago, Mrs Tiggywinkle said:

Frankly, I believe Trump is the symptom, not the cause. I’m a conservative libertarian, so I tend to view all politics as an outsider. 

Many diseases are survivable. It’s the symptoms that kill people.

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5 minutes ago, pitterpatter said:

This is exactly why I want to read an analysis. I wonder whether she resigned so she wouldn't have to vote.

 

I guess that's exactly what many of us find disappointing. 

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25 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

I read so so much when I was a teen. And although I can't tell you a single title all of this has the same feeling as a lot of the historical novels I read where one day everything was fine and the BAM everything changed and the world was at war or a government had collapsed and life was never the same again.

Well I think Trump has been living a season of a Shonda Rhimes story since the election. I think a lot of people probably got their idea of how voting machines are corrupted from Scandal. 

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I believe I read that Chau's resignation is effective Monday, which in this political climate is the equivalent of about three months of normal time. She could still find herself in the position of having to take a stand on the 25th Amendment. Or Trump could fire her in a few minutes--pretty much the equivalent of what he did to DHS Acting Secretary Wolf this morning, in an apparent fit of retribution. Doing that to Mrs. Mitch McConnell might be quite interesting.

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6 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

Pelosi just called to have the 25th amendment invoked  or impeachment proceedings would begin....but won't that all take longer than 13 days?

I don't think it would necessarily have to. They could draw up a simple, single article of impeachment, hold a quick House vote and have a Senate trial within a day or two. That's if the will was there (in the Senate) to do it, which I seriously doubt.

ETA: But for Pelosi there seems to be little/no downside to pushing this. At worst she forces the Republicans to go on record either for or against what happened yesterday. That puts them in a really, really bad spot.

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Just now, Pawz4me said:

I don't think it would necessarily have to. They could draw up a simple, single article of impeachment, hold a quick House vote and have a Senate trial within a day or two. That's if the will was there (in the Senate) to do it, which I seriously.

If they can pull an all nighter to certify the election, I think they can press through, if the will is there. 

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17 minutes ago, pitterpatter said:

This is exactly why I want to read an analysis. I wonder whether she resigned so she wouldn't have to vote.

ETA: If Mitch McConnell is supposed to be the "best" political strategist, I'm wondering what his strategy is in relation to his wife resigning.

 

Some really good questions (not all my own) that deserve answers:

1) Why was the Capitol Police so understaffed? I just saw a report that the Capitol police chief isn’t returning the speaker’s calls.

2) Why were firearms not authorized for the NG members that were pre-authorized to respond?

3) Who got the permit for the protest and paid the surety bond? How many people were anticipated according to the permit application?

4) Where are House minority leaders and Senate majority leaders? What is their stance on all of this?

 

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13 minutes ago, pitterpatter said:

Do you all think there will be legislation to tighten the qualifications for being able to run for president before the next election?

No.  The qualifications for president are in the constitution.  Trying to add requirements legislatively would be asking for long drawn-out court battles.

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13 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

Great. We have members ON THIS BOARD claiming it was antifa. Without evidence, at that.

But some of those also predicted all talk of the virus would go away after the election and still think Trump has some sort of superpower of seeing and knowing things others don’t. I think unfortunately there are some not yet realizing they are in the cult. And others not  yet acknowledging they have been enablers and direct or indirect supporters. I’m sure many still believe now that a conservative (by world standards) will be our next president, we are headed straight for socialistic collapse like Venezuela and/or communism and loss of freedoms like China. And that those are the real things to be most worried and concerned about, not the events of yesterday and everything leading up to it.

I have to hope there is lots of cognitive dissonance going on in the country today, including on this very board. I’m willing to give people a bit of time and grace to come to their senses and see the truth and become defenders and proponents of our democratic norms and institutions rather than party or presidential loyalists. As a moderate, I actually want two strong parties who each choose mature, honest, leaders who want to unite our country, not divide it. I really hope we can get back to that again.

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1 hour ago, Frances said:

.......

I have to hope there is lots of cognitive dissonance going on in the country today, including on this very board. I’m willing to give people a bit of time and grace to come to their senses and see the truth and become defenders and proponents of our democratic norms and institutions rather than party or presidential loyalists. As a moderate, I actually want two strong parties who each choose mature, honest, leaders who want to unite our country, not divide it. I really hope we can get back to that again.

I agree with you, but choosing mature, honest leaders requires that the country has enough mature, honest citizens.

I don't know that that's who we are anymore.

I hope I'm wrong, but everything the past 10 years, esp the past 4, doesn't give me much evidence that I am. 

Edited by Happy2BaMom
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23 minutes ago, pitterpatter said:

Do you all think there will be legislation to tighten the qualifications for being able to run for president before the next election?

I am pretty sure impeachment (with conviction) prohibits future office holding. That’s why I’d be in favor of it even with little time left in this presidency. 

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