Reverse snobbery is a thing. Have you experienced it?

[popmom]

13 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

Yeah, and that seems like a real problem. I'm not arguing with that. 

What are we defining as a "lower wage earner," by the way? Is that how you grew up or where you made it to? Does it have to be working class? 

When I was in elementary and middle school--through 7th grade, I got reduced breakfast and lunch. And I ate that 5 cent breakfast and 10 cent lunch every. single. weekday. lol My dad has a degree but we were a one income fam in a small town with more than the average 2 kids per family. He changed jobs when I was 13, and we moved to a suburb-- a mostly working class suburb actually. He got a sizeable pay raise which put us solidly middle class. 

I am currently what I would consider upper middle class?? I guess? But when you are raising 4 kids, it sure doesn't feel like it lol.

[TravelingChris]

7 hours ago, Carol in Cal. said:

There IS a pretty difficult aspect to this—a feeling that is sometimes transmitted to children that if they surpass their parents in education or achievements, that is disrespectful or in some other way very suspect.  That’s a pretty counterproductive view and puts kids in a very bad bind.  

I never really thought about this too much until I read a book about Jewish parenting that articulated the opposite—hoping your children would do better than you did.  It made me think about what I have seen where parents actually kind of hold their children back.

My MIL was like this.  The top example.  She blamed me for dh's success which is ludicrous.  She was very resentful of his degree, his career, just about everything about us.  She had been forced by her parents to drop out of high school and go to work and then married young too.  I don't think she was very happy with her life but at least part of her unhappiness was that dh, unlike everyone else in her life, refused to let her play the role of martyr and actually wanted to treat her respectfully.  I just think that her resentments of her loss opportunities and lack of social outlets-- she had just one friend who was very different and had a much more successful husband and life.  She probably was jealous of her too. 

[TravelingChris]

4 hours ago, Not_a_Number said:

Lol, I don't know if I'm an "elite," but we're currently moving back and forth between Boston and NYC 😛 . I don't think people here are more closed-minded than average. Aren't we all prone to generalizing from ourselves to others? I don't think that's confined to "coastal elites." 

I was specifically talking about elites who seem to think their limited experiences speak to everyone else--I think Gardenmom's example of cashless society is one of those kinds of things- people who have no idea that not everyone can access internet (because it isn't available everywhere or at least not available reliably and affordably everywhere), that large swaths of our country can expect weather disasters or geological disasters that make it very wise to keep some cash handy,  etc, etc.   And the people who pontificate their great ideas for everyone else tend to come from the DC-NYC-Boston corridor (and to a lesser extent parts of the West Coast too-  celebs who preach at people, for example).

[Not_a_Number]

30 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

What things do you suppose folks in the middle haven’t been exposed to? Immigrant life? Many of my neighborhood friends were the children of south Asian immigrants and my kids attended schools in another country with host country nationals. DH has coworkers from other nations as ‘exchange’ sailors too, lol. Every potluck we attend features food from all over the world. Multiple languages? Yep, got that. Urban living? Living abroad? Check and check.

 

I'm sure it depends on the people, and I happen to KNOW you have those experiences. But looking at that quiz, you could absolutely get a "you aren't in a bubble" score without any exposure to any other cultures. 

[Carol in Cal.]

20 minutes ago, popmom said:

When I was in elementary and middle school--through 7th grade, I got reduced breakfast and lunch. And I ate that 5 cent breakfast and 10 cent lunch every. single. weekday. lol My dad has a degree but we were a one income fam in a small town with more than the average 2 kids per family. He changed jobs when I was 13, and we moved to a suburb-- a mostly working class suburb actually. He got a sizeable pay raise which put us solidly middle class. 

I am currently what I would consider upper middle class?? I guess? But when you are raising 4 kids, it sure doesn't feel like it lol.

When I went to high school, the kids with free and reduced lunch cards ate way better than I did.  I had to bring a PBJ sandwich from home, and bring home the bag to be reused until it fell apart, and they had full meals.  Haven’t thought about that in years.  We were sort of barely out of the upper range for that help, but my parents did not think that paying for lunch was worth it, and I was not allowed to get a job, so I couldn’t buy them myself.

[Not_a_Number]

22 minutes ago, popmom said:

When I was in elementary and middle school--through 7th grade, I got reduced breakfast and lunch. And I ate that 5 cent breakfast and 10 cent lunch every. single. weekday. lol My dad has a degree but we were a one income fam in a small town with more than the average 2 kids per family. He changed jobs when I was 13, and we moved to a suburb-- a mostly working class suburb actually. He got a sizeable pay raise which put us solidly middle class. 

I am currently what I would consider upper middle class?? I guess? But when you are raising 4 kids, it sure doesn't feel like it lol.

It's just hard to know what one is as an immigrant, you know? I had my own bedroom as a kid, except when I stayed over at my dad's, when I shared with my two stepsisters. They are all educated, but in Ukraine in the 1990s, money bought you nothing, and sometimes you had to wipe your bum with newspaper and boil your bathwater. 

When we moved to Canada with just my mom, I didn't have a bedroom at our first apartment, and my mom would be working until really late lots of nights... but as a programmer, not working class. And then she married a rich guy, so then we were rich, I guess, except none of it felt like my money. (And now they are divorced anyway.) 

[popmom]

1 minute ago, Not_a_Number said:

It's just hard to know what one is as an immigrant, you know? 

Of course! I get that.

[TravelingChris]

2 hours ago, Not_a_Number said:

OK, I'm sorry, but that quiz was absurd. I'm a first generation immigrant who moved at age 11; I have no financial capital backing me at all. But I worked hard and got a good degree and I married someone with a good job who likes to live in cities, and that has apparently made my bubble ridiculous. 

Immigrants largely move to cities, because it's where the jobs are. Am I really more "insulated" than people who live in different parts of America? I know people from a far greater number of cultures than they do. Why is one's bubble only about religion/politics? What about knowing people who speak different languages? What about being deeply immersed in one's heritage culture? I'm not "good friends" with my mom's Russian friends who are on the opposite end of the political spectrum from me, but I sure know them. 

You certainly are much more in a bubble than me.  Because I have lived in cities and suburbs on both coasts and in between. I have known lots of people speaking other languages (and there is the idea that you wouldn't even know maybe about how even in many, many rural and small town areas of America-you will meet people speaking other languages).  I speak a a number of languages myself- better or worse.   What does that have to do with how well anyone is familiar with other areas of the country or other segments of society?

 

What was your score on the quiz?

[Not_a_Number]

Just now, popmom said:

Of course! I get that.

Maybe the "bubble" phrasing just touched a nerve, so I'm being grumpy 😉 . I do know that I'm not in touch with working class life. But I also do have WAY more perspective than some insufferable people I know who really DO seem to be in a bubble. (Always living in one place/always having plenty of money/being always surrounded by people who agree/never examining one's privileges seems to do that to one.) 

[TravelingChris]

2 hours ago, Not_a_Number said:

I haven't heard anyone reasonable say it, either. 

The quiz also made me realize something: somehow, people seem to squish all liberals into some sort of weird homogeneous "bubble." I know lots of people who vote for Democrats who have literally NOTHING in common. I know crazy anti-vaccine liberals, and Jewish liberals who vote that way because they don't trust the right for obvious reasons, and I know social justice warriors, and I know lower income liberals. 

I don't think "people who live in cities" are NEARLY as culturally homogeneous as people think. I would guess the alternative is MUCH more homogeneous. 

 

Because the Nazis (National Socialists) were so right, huh>?????  BTW, my family's country suffered greatly at the hands of the dual awful groups- Nazi's and Soviet Communists,

[Not_a_Number]

1 minute ago, TravelingChris said:

You certainly are much more in a bubble than me.  Because I have lived in cities and suburbs on both coasts and in between. I have known lots of people speaking other languages (and there is the idea that you wouldn't even know maybe about how even in many, many rural and small town areas of America-you will meet people speaking other languages).  I speak a a number of languages myself- better or worse.   What does that have to do with how well anyone is familiar with other areas of the country or other segments of society?

What was your score on the quiz?

Super low, lol. Although I'm honestly not even sure about how to answer some of them -- I don't know what our neighborhood in Toronto was when we moved there, and it's not even in America? How do I count where I lived until age 11? Who counts as a "close friend" when I don't have that many? 

It depends what you mean by "bubble," no? You could measure the number of ethnicities and origins of my close friends instead of whether they were working class, and then you would see that my friends vary a LOT. But they are all educated, because a lot of my friends I met in places that educated people hung out, like grad school. 

So, I have exposure to LOTS of cultures, but not working class US culture. 

 

[Not_a_Number]

Just now, TravelingChris said:

Because the Nazis (National Socialists) were so right, huh>?????  BTW, my family's country suffered greatly at the hands of the dual awful groups- Nazi's and Soviet Communists,

Sure, so did mine. I don't like either group. (And yes, Nazis are standardly considered far-right in any textbook I've ever seen.) For better and worse, most secular American Jews lean Democratic. You can argue that they are irrational, but I'm not saying anything about that -- just about their reasons.

[TravelingChris]

2 hours ago, Not_a_Number said:

I haven't heard anyone reasonable say it, either. 

The quiz also made me realize something: somehow, people seem to squish all liberals into some sort of weird homogeneous "bubble." I know lots of people who vote for Democrats who have literally NOTHING in common. I know crazy anti-vaccine liberals, and Jewish liberals who vote that way because they don't trust the right for obvious reasons, and I know social justice warriors, and I know lower income liberals. 

I don't think "people who live in cities" are NEARLY as culturally homogeneous as people think. I would guess the alternative is MUCH more homogeneous. 

 

Neither the people who live in cities nor the people who live in rural areas are homogenous in their views.  In many cases, not in their ethnicities or ancestries either. 

And who is arguing that all liberals are the same?  Are you arguing that all conservatives are the same?  Neither group is monolithic.

[TravelingChris]

2 hours ago, MissLemon said:

Yeah, that quiz was weird.  Whomever developed it must not have priced pick up trucks recently.  They aren't exactly a frugal choice.

The book came out in 2010 and was written earlier.

[Not_a_Number]

Just now, TravelingChris said:

Neither the people who live in cities nor the people who live in rural areas are homogenous in their views.  In many cases, not in their ethnicities or ancestries either. 

And who is arguing that all liberals are the same?  Are you arguing that all conservatives are the same?  Neither group is monolithic.

No, obviously they aren't all the same, lol. 

I think before we talk about homogeneity, we'd have to decide what to measure. 

[Sneezyone]

Just now, Not_a_Number said:

No, obviously they aren't all the same, lol. 

I think before we talk about homogeneity, we'd have to decide what to measure. 

I think you’re working from the assumption that people in lower income and rural groups don’t also have ethnic, linguistic, and academic diversity tho. They do. Rural America has lots of immigrants who don’t speak English as a first language. A lot of rural and low-income communities are used to resettle refugee populations too. Academics/teachers are often poorly paid. 

[Shoeless]

Just now, TravelingChris said:

The book came out in 2010 and was written earlier.

Interesting. DH has always insisted on driving a pickup. They weren't cheap 10 years ago, either. Tires can easily cost $1000.  An oil change was close to $100 every time. Routine maintenance for the truck was always some big production involving lots of money. 

[Not_a_Number]

Just now, Sneezyone said:

I think you’re working from the assumption that people in lower income and rural groups don’t also have ethnic, linguistic, and academic diversity tho. They do. Rural America has lots of immigrants who don’t speak English as a first language. A lot of rural and low-income communities are used to resettle refugee populations too. Academics/teachers are often poorly paid. 

Lower income groups definitely ARE very heterogeneous. That I do know. 

I'm curious how diverse rural communities are, but not in the sense that I know. Like, my knee-jerk assumption was that they are less diverse than urban areas, because immigrants do mostly move to cities, but if I'm wrong, I wouldn't be surprised since I'm not knowledgeable about this at ALL. 

So, you're right. I was starting from an assumption that might very well be wrong 🙂 . That's why I'm curious what one could actually measure to figure out how homogeneous the communities are... 

[TravelingChris]

5 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

Lower income groups definitely ARE very heterogeneous. That I do know. 

I'm curious how diverse rural communities are, but not in the sense that I know. Like, my knee-jerk assumption was that they are less diverse than urban areas, because immigrants do mostly move to cities, but if I'm wrong, I wouldn't be surprised since I'm not knowledgeable about this at ALL. 

So, you're right. I was starting from an assumption that might very well be wrong 🙂 . That's why I'm curious what one could actually measure to figure out how homogeneous the communities are... 

I can't speak to all rural communities but a lot of them that I have seen have a lot of immigrants- higher proportions it seems from the outside -like Spanish language radio stations, for one example, than many cities in my area.  The work these people tend to do on a large scale is often outside the larger cities. In the cities, the low wage immigrants are maids or busboys or similar situations and that doesn;t employ anywhere as many people as do things like chicken processing plants, various other manufacturing plants, etc.  that also employ a lot of immigrants.

[catz]

In my state there are certain rural communities that have significant numbers of immigrants.  Areas with Large meat packing plants come to mind.   

[Corraleno]

21 minutes ago, popmom said:

Liberals/urbanites are not the only ones living in bubbles. So I get how the quiz could sort of come off as an attack. Rural people have their own bubbles. We all do. The problem is--and I think why the quiz and the awareness is important--is that Americans in working class/middle class situations--no matter where they live-- don't have a seat at the table when it comes to policy making. If you look at the make up of our government and our courts, lower wage earners are extremely underrepresented. 

The reason that quiz is total BS is that if you answer the questions as if you are a blue-collar worker who has lived his or her entire life in a small rural community, drive a pickup truck, work in the local factory earning <33K, and spend your free time fishing, watching TV, following NASCAR, and eating in Denny's, you get a very high score that indicates you DON'T live in a bubble, while others who may have much broader experiences and a much more diverse social circle — including many working class, urban POC — would get tagged as living in a "bubble."

The idea that "working class" equals rural, pickup-driving NASCAR fans who work in factories is itself a ridiculous stereotype — more than 80% of the US population live in urban areas, including a large segment of the working class, and their primary source of employment is service jobs, not factory work. But it's hardly surprising that this quiz would be promote that stereotype since it's based on the work of a wealthy Harvard-educated white guy who writes books about the decline of the white working class and how some races just aren't as smart as others...

[Not_a_Number]

10 minutes ago, TravelingChris said:

I can't speak to all rural communities but a lot of them that I have seen have a lot of immigrants- higher proportions it seems from the outside -like Spanish language radio stations, for one example, than many cities in my area.  The work these people tend to do on a large scale is often outside the larger cities. In the cities, the low wage immigrants are maids or busboys or similar situations and that doesn;t employ anywhere as many people as do things like chicken processing plants, various other manufacturing plants, etc.  that also employ a lot of immigrants.

I wonder if it depends on the city, too? 

If I try where I am now, then here's the breakdown for Boston: 

 

White alone, percent	 52.8%
Black or African American alone, percent(a)	 25.2%
American Indian and Alaska Native alone, percent(a)	 0.3%
Asian alone, percent(a)	 9.7%
Native Hawaiian and Other Pacific Islander alone, percent(a)	 0.1%
Two or More Races, percent	 5.3%
Hispanic or Latino, percent(b)	 19.8%
White alone, not Hispanic or Latino, percent	 44.5%

Here's the breakdown for Massachusetts: 

 

White alone, percent	 80.6%
Black or African American alone, percent(a)	 9.0%
American Indian and Alaska Native alone, percent(a)	 0.5%
Asian alone, percent(a)	 7.2%
Native Hawaiian and Other Pacific Islander alone, percent(a)	 0.1%
Two or More Races, percent	 2.6%
Hispanic or Latino, percent(b)	 12.4%
White alone, not Hispanic or Latino, percent	 71.1%

 

So, at least around here, Boston seems more ethnically diverse than the whole state.  

Edited December 31, 2020 by Not_a_Number

[Not_a_Number]

3 minutes ago, Corraleno said:

The reason that quiz is total BS is that if you answer the questions as if you are a blue-collar worker who has lived his or her entire life in a small rural community, drive a pickup truck, work in the local factory earning <33K, and spend your free time fishing, watching TV, following NASCAR, and eating in Denny's, you get a very high score that indicates you DON'T live in a bubble, while others who may have much broader experiences and a much more diverse social circle — including many working class, urban POC — would get tagged as living in a "bubble."

Right. Exactly. Like, I'll admit that I do NOT have a good understanding of this life, and that's probably not something I will ever experience. And that DOES give me blind spots, and I should be mindful of that. 

But in the same way, I have experiences that this blue-collar worker does not. So really, we each have our bubbles, and as you point out, really this bubble is just a DIFFERENT bubble, and probably a smaller bubble than lots of urban folks I know. 

(But not all! I do know some insufferable upper middle class and wealthy people, lol. The "elite" stereotype doesn't come out of nowhere...) 

 

Quote

The idea that "working class" equals rural, pickup-driving NASCAR fans who work in factories is itself a ridiculous stereotype — more than 80% of the US population live in urban areas, including a large segment of the working class, and their primary source of employment is service jobs, not factory work. But it's hardly surprising that this quiz would be promote that stereotype since it's based on the work of a wealthy Harvard-educated white guy who writes books about the decline of the white working class and how some races just aren't as smart as others...

I did notice that it was a Charles Murray production, lol. 

Edited December 31, 2020 by Not_a_Number

[popmom]

17 minutes ago, Corraleno said:

The reason that quiz is total BS is that if you answer the questions as if you are a blue-collar worker who has lived his or her entire life in a small rural community, drive a pickup truck, work in the local factory earning <33K, and spend your free time fishing, watching TV, following NASCAR, and eating in Denny's, you get a very high score that indicates you DON'T live in a bubble, while others who may have much broader experiences and a much more diverse social circle — including many working class, urban POC — would get tagged as living in a "bubble."

The idea that "working class" equals rural, pickup-driving NASCAR fans who work in factories is itself a ridiculous stereotype — more than 80% of the US population live in urban areas, including a large segment of the working class, and their primary source of employment is service jobs, not factory work. But it's hardly surprising that this quiz would be promote that stereotype since it's based on the work of a wealthy Harvard-educated white guy who writes books about the decline of the white working class and how some races just aren't as smart as others...

It’s not BS because he knows his audience. An author knows his audience. 

And thank God for the electoral college.

and for sure...Harvard educated white guys are evil. I’m sure nothing he has ever done has been based in science, so launch all the personal attacks! That will fix this s$”@ show that is American society.

Edited December 31, 2020 by popmom

[Not_a_Number]

1 minute ago, popmom said:

It’s not BS because he knows his audience. An author knows his audience. 

And thank God for the electoral college.

and for sure...Harvard educated white guys are evil. I’m sure nothing he has ever done has been based in science, so launch all the personal attacks!

Ooof, let’s not go down that specific rabbit hole. 

Harvard-educated white guys dissing elites is pretty funny, you have to admit. 

[Sneezyone]

13 minutes ago, Corraleno said:

The reason that quiz is total BS is that if you answer the questions as if you are a blue-collar worker who has lived his or her entire life in a small rural community, drive a pickup truck, work in the local factory earning <33K, and spend your free time fishing, watching TV, following NASCAR, and eating in Denny's, you get a very high score that indicates you DON'T live in a bubble, while others who may have much broader experiences and a much more diverse social circle — including many working class, urban POC — would get tagged as living in a "bubble."

The idea that "working class" equals rural, pickup-driving NASCAR fans who work in factories is itself a ridiculous stereotype — more than 80% of the US population live in urban areas, including a large segment of the working class, and their primary source of employment is service jobs, not factory work. But it's hardly surprising that this quiz would be promote that stereotype since it's based on the work of a wealthy Harvard-educated white guy who writes books about the decline of the white working class and how some races just aren't as smart as others...

I think extremely high and low scores indicate bubbles on either end of the spectrum. Maybe the survey was designed for urban readers?? I don’t know where this was first published. I agree with you WRT the factories and service work tho. I don’t know much about the author.

[popmom]

6 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

Ooof, let’s not go down that specific rabbit hole. 

Harvard-educated white guys dissing elites is pretty funny, you have to admit. 

Funny and intellectually honest. I will bow out of the discussion. I was playing fallacy detective. Don’t worry. I won’t quit my day job. 😉 the discussion has gone off track anyway.

Edited December 31, 2020 by popmom

[Not_a_Number]

Just now, popmom said:

Funny and intellectually honest. I will bow out of the discussion. 

Maybe. Or maybe someone interested in profiting from being a contrarian.

[Not_a_Number]

1 minute ago, Sneezyone said:

I think extremely high and low scores indicate bubbles on either end of the spectrum. Maybe the survey was designed for urban readers?? I don’t know where this was first published. I agree with you WRT the factories and service work tho. I don’t know much about the author.

I suppose I’m in a bubble then, lol.

[Corraleno]

2 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

I think extremely high and low scores indicate bubbles on either end of the spectrum. Maybe the survey was designed for urban readers?? I don’t know where this was first published. I agree with you WRT the factories and service work tho. I don’t know much about the author.

Charles Murray is one of the authors of The Bell Curve, which argues that racial disparities in educational and social achievement may have a genetic basis — i.e. some races just aren't as intelligent or hard-working as others.

[Not_a_Number]

Just now, Corraleno said:

Charles Murray is one of the authors of The Bell Curve, which argues that racial disparities in educational and social achievement may have a genetic basis — i.e. some races just aren't as intelligent or hard-working as others.

Yeah, he’s kind of infamous.

[Sneezyone]

11 minutes ago, Corraleno said:

Charles Murray is one of the authors of The Bell Curve, which argues that racial disparities in educational and social achievement may have a genetic basis — i.e. some races just aren't as intelligent or hard-working as others.

TBH, while I know of that work, I’ve never given it a thought or studied it. I dismissed it.

Edited December 31, 2020 by Sneezyone

[TravelingChris]

3 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

Right. Exactly. Like, I'll admit that I do NOT have a good understanding of this life, and that's probably not something I will ever experience. And that DOES give me blind spots, and I should be mindful of that. 

But in the same way, I have experiences that this blue-collar worker does not. So really, we each have our bubbles, and as you point out, really this bubble is just a DIFFERENT bubble, and probably a smaller bubble than lots of urban folks I know. 

(But not all! I do know some insufferable upper middle class and wealthy people, lol. The "elite" stereotype doesn't come out of nowhere...) 

 

I did notice that it was a Charles Murray production, lol. 

The quiz is just a little bit of the book.   He really well describes how American patterns of marriage have drastically changed, how separated our country has become with a much greater separation of income, education, etc.  He describes the changes from 1964 to 2010 (or probably 2009 or 2008 since books take some time to get published). 

[TravelingChris]

15 minutes ago, popmom said:

It’s not BS because he knows his audience. An author knows his audience. 

And thank God for the electoral college.

and for sure...Harvard educated white guys are evil. I’m sure nothing he has ever done has been based in science, so launch all the personal attacks! That will fix this s$”@ show that is American society.

His book is very factual

[popmom]

14 hours ago, TravelingChris said:

His book is very factual

never mind sorry for being over the top

Sorry. Ok NOW I’m bowing out

Edited December 31, 2020 by popmom

[Shoeless]

Wow. 

[Sneezyone]

Just now, popmom said:

But he’s evil. He has a politically incorrect position. His facts are no longer facts.

FTR- I don’t think the Bell curve qualifies as ‘politically’ incorrect but incorrect and/or discredited.

[Not_a_Number]

Just now, popmom said:

But he’s evil. He has a politically incorrect position. His facts are no longer facts.

Well, it’s possible he’s an impartial scientist. And it’s possible he has an agenda and enjoys making oodles of money out of the controversy. And it’s possible that people LOVE the cover his thesis gives, as it suggests we never CAN level the playing field, so why bother?

I was never interested enough in his work to look at his statistics seriously, but DH says they are very cherry-picked. But really, I don’t think it’s reasonable to discuss that book without an actual deep dive into the studies. 

[Corraleno]

1 minute ago, popmom said:

But he’s evil. He has a politically incorrect position. His facts are no longer facts.

I don't think he's evil, I think he's an asshole, lol. Do you agree with his claim that some races are just genetically smarter than others — is that a "fact" that he's bravely being "intellectually honest" about?

[TravelingChris]

8 minutes ago, Corraleno said:

Charles Murray is one of the authors of The Bell Curve, which argues that racial disparities in educational and social achievement may have a genetic basis — i.e. some races just aren't as intelligent or hard-working as others.

May have====doesn't mean totally have a genetic basis.  But we all know that intelligence is at least in a major part genetically determined.  Now intelligence is not equal to educational achievement as so many of us have been talking about intelligent people who aren't well educated and dumbbells who do have advanced degrees.  And what social achievement?  I do not think that social achievement is genetically based though there probably is a genetic basis to some aspects of our personalities like introversion and extroversion.  I haven't read that book.  But I did read a book by Thomas Sowell about differing cultures having differing talents - though I think he was talking about the role of culture more than any genetic basis for the talents though some are genetically based, at least in part.

[Sneezyone]

3 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

Well, it’s possible he’s an impartial scientist. And it’s possible he has an agenda and enjoys making oodles of money out of the controversy. And it’s possible that people LOVE the cover his thesis gives, as it suggests we never CAN level the playing field, so why bother?

I was never interested enough in his work to look at his statistics seriously, but DH says they are very cherry-picked. But really, I don’t think it’s reasonable to discuss that book without an actual deep dive into the studies. 

I think it’s possible to separate the idea of snobbery, reverse or otherwise, from this individual. Heck, if I can get on board with one of the horsemen to support checks for working families, anything is possible. 🤣

[TravelingChris]

3 minutes ago, Corraleno said:

I don't think he's evil, I think he's an asshole, lol. Do you agree with his claim that some races are just genetically smarter than others — is that a "fact" that he's bravely being "intellectually honest" about?

I don't know whether he has claimed this himself or whether others have said that he did.  I didn't read that book but I do know that you said he said that educational and sociatal achievements ""May"" have genetic basis.  That is super different than saying that genetic differences mean absolutely everything or that some races are smarter than others. 

[Carol in Cal.]

45 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

I wonder if it depends on the city, too? 

If I try where I am now, then here's the breakdown for Boston: 

 

White alone, percent	 52.8%
Black or African American alone, percent(a)	 25.2%
American Indian and Alaska Native alone, percent(a)	 0.3%
Asian alone, percent(a)	 9.7%
Native Hawaiian and Other Pacific Islander alone, percent(a)	 0.1%
Two or More Races, percent	 5.3%
Hispanic or Latino, percent(b)	 19.8%
White alone, not Hispanic or Latino, percent	 44.5%

Here's the breakdown for Massachusetts: 

 

White alone, percent	 80.6%
Black or African American alone, percent(a)	 9.0%
American Indian and Alaska Native alone, percent(a)	 0.5%
Asian alone, percent(a)	 7.2%
Native Hawaiian and Other Pacific Islander alone, percent(a)	 0.1%
Two or More Races, percent	 2.6%
Hispanic or Latino, percent(b)	 12.4%
White alone, not Hispanic or Latino, percent	 71.1%

 

So, at least around here, Boston seems more ethnically diverse than the whole state.  

How much mixing is there in Boston?
I had the impression that it was one of the more segregated cities around, like Chicago and Milwaukee.  

[Corraleno]

4 minutes ago, TravelingChris said:

May have====doesn't mean totally have a genetic basis.  But we all know that intelligence is at least in a major part genetically determined.  Now intelligence is not equal to educational achievement as so many of us have been talking about intelligent people who aren't well educated and dumbbells who do have advanced degrees.  And what social achievement?  I do not think that social achievement is genetically based though there probably is a genetic basis to some aspects of our personalities like introversion and extroversion.  I haven't read that book.  But I did read a book by Thomas Sowell about differing cultures having differing talents - though I think he was talking about the role of culture more than any genetic basis for the talents though some are genetically based, at least in part.

Murray argues that poor people are poor because they are genetically inferior, and the fact that people of color make up a disproportionate percentage of the poor has nothing to do with systemic racism — they are just genetically not as smart.  He argues for abolishing social programs on the grounds that there's no point in trying to raise these people out of poverty, because they're really not capable of higher achievement so they may as well just accept their place in the food chain. The reason the world is basically run by wealthy white men is because those specific individuals are smarter and harder working, not because they've had any social advantages. 

[Not_a_Number]

9 minutes ago, Carol in Cal. said:

How much mixing is there in Boston?
I had the impression that it was one of the more segregated cities around, like Chicago and Milwaukee. 

 

It’s fairly segregated, yeah. 

[Corraleno]

Direct quotes from The Bell Curve:

"Latin and black immigrants are, at least in the short run, putting downward pressure on the distribution of intelligence."

"Group differences in cognitive ability, so desperately denied for so long, can best be handled — can only be handled — by a return to individualism." 

"There is no reason to assume that the hazards associated with low cognitive ability in America are somehow circumvented by having been born abroad or having parents or grandparents who were. An immigrant population with low cognitive ability will — again, on the average — have trouble not only in finding good work but have trouble in school, at home, and with the law."

"The technically precise description of America’s fertility policy is that it subsidizes births among poor women, who are also disproportionately at the low end of the intelligence distribution. We urge generally that these policies, represented by the extensive network of cash and services for low-income women who have babies, be ended."

 

[popmom]

58 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

FTR- I don’t think the Bell curve qualifies as ‘politically’ incorrect but incorrect and/or discredited.

That's fair. I wonder if he still stands by this position. I will read up on this. I remember when this book came out and the controversy. 

eta okay so he's passed. So I'll never know. It's interesting that it gets such good reviews. I'm definitely looking into this further. 

eta again: I don't think it is wise to pass judgment on someone based on a couple of cherry picked passages from a book. I don't know the context. I think before I write him off I will read the book and read up on his critics. 

Edited December 31, 2020 by popmom

[Carol in Cal.]

24 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

 

It’s fairly segregated, yeah. 

So being diverse, in that case, does not necessarily mean actually interacting with other ethnicities very much.

[Frances]

11 hours ago, PeterPan said:

You struggle with guilt or jealousy? Guilt I understand. If you travel you quickly realize how much better almost anyone in our country has it than much of the rest of the world. 
 

Jealousy I don’t really understand. I’ve been rich and poor and it’s always about contentment. Money doesn’t make you happy nor does it buy love. Now it buys DOGS which is sorta like buying love, but even many who struggle have a dog. 

I would say that the vast majority of people who are bothered by ostentatious displays of wealth are not jealous. I always find this assumption very strange.

[popmom]

okay so back to reverse snobbery lol

Here's my petty first experience.

My high school friends (I use that term loosely) all scored lower than me on ACT/SATs and went to a small school in state. I ended up at a large "name" school and joined a sorority (I was a total nerd in HS). My high school "friends" wouldn't have anything to do with me after that. I mean this has never bothered me. I just always thought it was interesting. I'm still not sure if it was the sorority or the big name school. Probably a combination. I just remember being so perplexed. I was naive.

Edited December 31, 2020 by popmom