Reverse snobbery is a thing. Have you experienced it?

[TravelingChris]

7 hours ago, Carrie12345 said:

buy some bonbons.

Makes me want to eat my homemade bonbons that we always make at Christmastime.☺️

[popmom]

17 minutes ago, TravelingChris said:

Well I am not anti-intellectual but am, in some regards, anti-elites.  I guess it depends on what you mean as elites.  I am anti coastal NYC/Boston types and to a lesser degree some of the big cities on the other coast who A) think that reality in nameyourbigcity is your reality in the rest of US/Canada?wherever since I have actually seen and heard this in other countries too B) think that based on their lives, they can tell you what is right for you, your community, etc.   And you can see this on TV or read in books and media.  I got an interesting cookbook from dh for Christmas with a lot of recipes I want to try- but the author, who lives in a very large city in Canada, seems to think all the rest of us reading the book have equal access to ingredients like she does.  That is a bland example because it is just kind of a dumb suggestion- go to a certain type of Asian store-not the kind we have here nor the kind available in large proportions of cities and of course, no rural areas.  But elites who constantly harp on stuff like living your life themes that have zero to do with people not in the biggest cities, or people who offer political or other solutions that totally ignore the realities of most lives- like anyone whose life doesn't have a lot of leisure time or anyone who isn't in perfect health or anyone who isn't wealthy  or (I could name so many examples as to write a book)>  

White elites who deem to speak for blacks or Native Americans or who have you.  Deciding that a so-called activist of whatever group actually speaks for all that group,.  Elites who think that any group of people is all the same and thinks all the same be it disabled, blacks, rural, whoever.  

 

There is an excellent book that discussed the divide and had a quiz in the back to see how elitist you were.  Coming Apart by Charles Murray.  And the quiz is available on PBS at https://www.pbs.org/newshour/economy/do-you-live-in-a-bubble-a-quiz-2

 

You articulated this so well. This is how I feel, too. I find myself playing devil's advocate a lot. 

Thanks for the book rec.

Edited December 30, 2020 by popmom

[Pawz4me]

54 minutes ago, TravelingChris said:

And the quiz is available on PBS at https://www.pbs.org/newshour/economy/do-you-live-in-a-bubble-a-quiz-2

 

That quiz is kinda cute in a quaint way (it's several years old, so looking at it again--I'd done it before--through the lens of the past year is quite interesting). Like most quizzes, some of the questions, even the ones that aren't all messed up now because of the pandemic, are pretty weird and it's hard to figure out what they're getting at or how accurate it could possibly be. Like the one that asks if you or your spouse has ever owned a pickup truck. Umm . . yes, we have; it's sitting in our driveway right now. And exactly what is that supposed to prove? That we're anti-elitist rednecks? Or is it that pickups are very expensive vehicles, and being able to afford one means one is an out-of-touch elite? Does it matter if it's a super nice, new(ish) pickup that is used to haul landscaping supplies because one enjoys piddling in the suburban yard, or if it's a dusty, beat up/well used work or farm truck? The quiz didn't ask that, so I can't quite figure out the relevance.

(You can ignore my tangent. I'm mostly just amusing myself.)

Edited December 30, 2020 by Pawz4me

[gardenmom5]

20 minutes ago, TravelingChris said:

Well I am not anti-intellectual but am, in some regards, anti-elites.  I guess it depends on what you mean as elites.  I am anti coastal NYC/Boston types and to a lesser degree some of the big cities on the other coast who A) think that reality in nameyourbigcity is your reality in the rest of US/Canada?wherever since I have actually seen and heard this in other countries too B) think that based on their lives, they can tell you what is right for you, your community, etc.   And you can see this on TV or read in books and media.  I got an interesting cookbook from dh for Christmas with a lot of recipes I want to try- but the author, who lives in a very large city in Canada, seems to think all the rest of us reading the book have equal access to ingredients like she does.  That is a bland example because it is just kind of a dumb suggestion- go to a certain type of Asian store-not the kind we have here nor the kind available in large proportions of cities and of course, no rural areas.  But elites who constantly harp on stuff like living your life themes that have zero to do with people not in the biggest cities, or people who offer political or other solutions that totally ignore the realities of most lives- like anyone whose life doesn't have a lot of leisure time or anyone who isn't in perfect health or anyone who isn't wealthy  or (I could name so many examples as to write a book)>  

White elites who deem to speak for blacks or Native Americans or who have you.  Deciding that a so-called activist of whatever group actually speaks for all that group,.  Elites who think that any group of people is all the same and thinks all the same be it disabled, blacks, rural, whoever.  

 

There is an excellent book that discussed the divide and had a quiz in the back to see how elitist you were.  Coming Apart by Charles Murray.  And the quiz is available on PBS at https://www.pbs.org/newshour/economy/do-you-live-in-a-bubble-a-quiz-2

 

Is she from Vancouver?  they do have one of the largest Asian populations in the world outside of Asia.  It was interesting to walk through Richmond - McD's has rice balls . . . 

 

My ultra-liberal sister was pushing for going to a cashless society - so only credit/debit cards. (to help cut the spread of covid on cash.).   I explained to her how utterly classist that was of her, and the number of people that would be disenfranchised by forcing that on society.   

[gardenmom5]

2 minutes ago, Pawz4me said:

That quiz is kinda cute in a quaint way (it's several years old, so looking at it again--I'd done it before--through the lens of the past year is quite interesting). Like most quizzes, some of the questions are pretty weird and hard to figure out what they're getting at or how accurate it could possibly be. Like the one that asks if you or your spouse have ever owned a pickup truck. Umm . . yes, we have; it's sitting in our driveway right now. And . . exactly what is that supposed to prove? That we're anti-elitist rednecks? Or is it that pickups are very expensive vehicles, and being able to afford one means one is elite? Does it matter if it's a super nice, new(ish) pickup that is used to haul landscaping supplies because one enjoys piddling in the suburban yard, or if it's a dusty, beat up/well used work truck? The quiz didn't ask that, so I can't quite figure out the relevance.

(You can ignore my tangent. I'm mostly just amusing myself.)

could be a redneck, could be a farmer/rancher, could be someone into expensive sports that require large pieces of equipment . . . I agree, what does it have to do with anything?

[Pawz4me]

25 minutes ago, TravelingChris said:

Not to ,mention that there are people who do work in grocery stores that do have degrees and not necessarily front end either.  

Yep. DS22, who has a four year degree, is doing just that. 'Cause he had the great misfortune to graduate from college a couple of months before a pandemic hit. But that's okay. It's an honest job, one to be proud of in these perilous times, and he doesn't hate it.

[Carol in Cal.]

There IS a pretty difficult aspect to this—a feeling that is sometimes transmitted to children that if they surpass their parents in education or achievements, that is disrespectful or in some other way very suspect.  That’s a pretty counterproductive view and puts kids in a very bad bind.  

I never really thought about this too much until I read a book about Jewish parenting that articulated the opposite—hoping your children would do better than you did.  It made me think about what I have seen where parents actually kind of hold their children back.

[Shoeless]

7 hours ago, PeterPan said:

Have you seen Mike Rowe talking about this? I think there's balance. Sometimes people who haven't been to college (or who have!) think that getting the dc through college secures their future. For some kids it does and for some kids it really wasn't the ideal path. So it's kind of foolhardy either way. 

What you might do is instead emphasize WORK and then see what helps him on the path to do the work he wants to do. Make sense? I mean, we can go into this whole gig about how college is really about development, blah blah, but that's sorta poppycock. Most people don't have $50-200k to blow not to have it result in a better job. But in my small experience, it's not necessarily wise to push college as religion on people for whom it's not the right fit. It's more helpful to embrace the value of WORK and let the dc sort out what doors he needs to have open.

I have seen Mike Rowe, yes. I know that a degree won't guarantee anything. I just have a kid that is very likely to go into a field that will require a degree.  My kid is only 12 and hasn't sorted out what he wants to do later in life, but I suspect he'll end up an accountant, an actuary, a data scientist, or something like that. Or maybe even a math teacher, lol.  (I think it's funny that the homeschooled kid could end up a math teacher, but he's really good at explaining concepts!)  He's not a trade-school type of kid at all.  When DH goes on a rant about "university kids who do nothing but party", I say "Yeah, I hear you. That is a big waste of money. If we think all he wants from college is to party party party, then he can pick up the tab for that and deal with the consequences. Or, he can wait a year or two until he's ready to buckle down, and THEN we can help him pay for it". 

It's really just envy on DH's part. He didn't go to college because he became a parent at a very young age and needed to get to work to support a family. His life was hard in a lot of ways then, and he has some...feelings...about that period of his life. It's understandable. At the same time, he can't dump all these feelings on kiddo. Some people aren't suited for college or don't need it. But there are still some people that *do* want and need college to move them along their path in life. 

I also admit that I am defensive about this topic. I wanted to be an archeologist or paleontologist. My parents shot that down and I ended up studying music at a school I did not want to attend. I still wish I could be a paleontologist or archeologist, but at 48, that ship has sailed. It is what it is. I'm not going to allow anyone to railroad kiddo into a career he doesn't want simply to make his parents feel better about their regrets. 

Edited December 30, 2020 by MissLemon

[marbel]

21 minutes ago, Carol in Cal. said:

There IS a pretty difficult aspect to this—a feeling that is sometimes transmitted to children that if they surpass their parents in education or achievements, that is disrespectful or in some other way very suspect.  That’s a pretty counterproductive view and puts kids in a very bad bind.  

I never really thought about this too much until I read a book about Jewish parenting that articulated the opposite—hoping your children would do better than you did.  It made me think about what I have seen where parents actually kind of hold their children back.

Interesting. I can't think of a parent I have known who did not want their children to do better than the parent(s) did. My father certainly articulated that to me many times when I was growing up. He finished high school at night during the Great Depression, and never went to college. He was never exactly successful but achieved a level of financial comfort and flexibility that he had probably never dreamed of.  He always hoped his kids would do better than he did. (Though, he did not exactly encourage college, but probably because he simply did not know how to.)

[Carol in Cal.]

1 minute ago, marbel said:

Interesting. I can't think of a parent I have known who did not want their children to do better than the parent(s) did. My father certainly articulated that to me many times when I was growing up. He finished high school at night during the Great Depression, and never went to college. He was never exactly successful but achieved a level of financial comfort and flexibility that he had probably never dreamed of.  He always hoped his kids would do better than he did. (Though, he did not exactly encourage college, but probably because he simply did not know how to.)

I have seen this personally.  

[gardenmom5]

1 hour ago, TravelingChris said:

Not to ,mention that there are people who do work in grocery stores that do have degrees and not necessarily front end either.  

There was a retired Seahawk that worked in one of our local grocery stores.

eta: speaking of . . . . The guy (Geoffrey Owens) who played cosby's son-in-law on the cosby show was working in a grocery store.  Some not-nice-person took his picture and posted it all over social media to 'shame' him.  He should thank her, people were so outraged, it helped him get another gig. (which led to another gig . . . )

Edited December 30, 2020 by gardenmom5

[gardenmom5]

40 minutes ago, marbel said:

Interesting. I can't think of a parent I have known who did not want their children to do better than the parent(s) did. My father certainly articulated that to me many times when I was growing up. He finished high school at night during the Great Depression, and never went to college. He was never exactly successful but achieved a level of financial comfort and flexibility that he had probably never dreamed of.  He always hoped his kids would do better than he did. (Though, he did not exactly encourage college, but probably because he simply did not know how to.)

I can . . . . . 

Then there are mentally ill parents that may not even mean to undermine their kids, but in practice they do.

[Melissa Louise]

Fear and defensiveness.

Honestly, I find it more emotionally comprehensible than straight up elitism/snobbery. Although that probably has a component of defensiveness too.

One group defends against feelings of 'less than'. The other group defends against discomfort around their own socio-economic/cultural privilege. 

The mottoes of each might be:

"You're no better than me!" and "I deserve my privilege!"

Personally, I straddle both groups, and probably exhibit both behaviours at times.

I think there aren't many people entirely aware of/in control of their own projections. Most of us probably have at least some defensive biases. 

 

 

[Melissa Louise]

Just thinking more about this, we probably all need a good dose of humility. 

On the one hand, an appreciation of those who genuinely know/do more than we do, an appreciation of expertise. On the other, remembering that there but for the grace of God, an acknowledgement of the role of luck in our own success.

[Guest]

8 hours ago, PeterPan said:

So what did you do for your wedding ring? I had seen a documentary on the history of the diamond industry, so when I got engaged I suggested we *not* do a diamond as the main rock. I'm not sure it makes a difference (to the world, to the economy, to the people in Africa, etc.), but all these years later I'm still glad about our choice.

It’s tangential, but dd’s engagement ring is a lab-created “diamond.” I think many young people are going this route because a) they can have a prettier jewel than they could otherwise afford; b) they feel better about the fair trade aspect; c) they feel better not sourcing from the earth. Win-win-win. 

[Not_a_Number]

3 hours ago, TravelingChris said:

I am anti coastal NYC/Boston types and to a lesser degree some of the big cities on the other coast who A) think that reality in nameyourbigcity is your reality in the rest of US/Canada?wherever since I have actually seen and heard this in other countries too B) think that based on their lives, they can tell you what is right for you, your community, etc. 

Lol, I don't know if I'm an "elite," but we're currently moving back and forth between Boston and NYC 😛 . I don't think people here are more closed-minded than average. Aren't we all prone to generalizing from ourselves to others? I don't think that's confined to "coastal elites." 

[Shoeless]

4 hours ago, TravelingChris said:

Both dh and I are highly educated but do think that the degrees are not all they seem.  My FIL didn't finish high school and instead enlisted in the Navy and went to war (WWII).  He drove a milk truck and a school bus.  He was very intelligent and quite well self-educated.  My son never finished his BA- super intelligent and much more educated than many of the people I have met with doctoral degrees.  

As to not considering people without degrees, my state, at least, is making a push for experiences and knowledge over degrees.  Because some people with degrees know nothing and some without know a lot.

I don't assume that everyone with a degree is necessarily intelligent or well educated. I don't assume that everyone who lacks a degree is dumb or uneducated, either. 

This is the sort of discussion that develops whenever I mention I think DS12 will likely go to college. Someone points out the people they know that are intelligent, well-educated, but lack a degree. Or I get cautioned to not worship at the altar of higher education. Ok? I won't? I don't think I'm doing that. If kiddo wanted to become an electrician or a barber, I'd be just as supportive and enthusiastic about it as a path that led to college. 

[Shoeless]

3 hours ago, marbel said:

Interesting. I can't think of a parent I have known who did not want their children to do better than the parent(s) did. My father certainly articulated that to me many times when I was growing up. He finished high school at night during the Great Depression, and never went to college. He was never exactly successful but achieved a level of financial comfort and flexibility that he had probably never dreamed of.  He always hoped his kids would do better than he did. (Though, he did not exactly encourage college, but probably because he simply did not know how to.)

I know of a couple of parents like this, but they were not good, loving parents. 

[Not_a_Number]

3 minutes ago, MissLemon said:

I don't assume that everyone with a degree is necessarily intelligent or well educated. I don't assume that everyone who lacks a degree is dumb or uneducated, either. 

This is the sort of discussion that develops whenever I mention I think DS12 will likely go to college. Someone points out the people they know that are intelligent, well-educated, but lack a degree. Or I get cautioned to not worship at the altar of higher education. Ok? I won't? I don't think I'm doing that. If kiddo wanted to become an electrician or a barber, I'd be just as supportive and enthusiastic about it as a path that led to college. 

Yeah, this is kind of coming back to the "reverse snobbery" thing, isn't it? 

Lots of careers need specialized training. Specifically, STEM majors usually need the kind of specialized training you tend to get in college and graduate school. So, without even getting into the benefits of "softer" subjects like the humanities (which absolutely exist), if you believe that electricians should be trained as electricians, if you have a budding scientist/mathematician/whatever, their easiest career path probably involves college. 

[catz]

 

4 hours ago, gardenmom5 said:

 

My ultra-liberal sister was pushing for going to a cashless society - so only credit/debit cards. (to help cut the spread of covid on cash.).   I explained to her how utterly classist that was of her, and the number of people that would be disenfranchised by forcing that on society.   

But is this even a liberal thing?  I've never heard anyone say this before and it's not even really based in science because contact is not a huge driver of covid anyway.  Most of the urban liberal so-called "elite" I know as someone who would likely be categorized that way are  at least somewhat sensitive to the needs of a variety of socio-economic levels because they mix with a variety every day.  

This to me reads more as something some who doesn't mix outside their current socio-economic level kind of thing to say to me and nothing to do with being conservative or liberal. 

I think stereotyping or demonizing entire swathes of the population is just a bad idea across the board.   I would be categorized upper middle class but I'm first gen female for college, my dad graduated college older working his way through, my grandparents were very blue collar. I was brought home from the hospital to a trailer home.  You don't know where people have been or who they know or what got them to where they are.  

I also found the quiz amusing.  There are extremely "elite" pickup  truck owners who fish regularly in my parts for instance.  I know urban elites who spend their weekends hunting in camo.  

[gardenmom5]

2 hours ago, Melissa Louise said:

Fear and defensiveness.

Honestly, I find it more emotionally comprehensible than straight up elitism/snobbery. Although that probably has a component of defensiveness too.

One group defends against feelings of 'less than'. The other group defends against discomfort around their own socio-economic/cultural privilege. 

The mottoes of each might be:

"You're no better than me!" and "I deserve my privilege!"

Personally, I straddle both groups, and probably exhibit both behaviours at times.

I think there aren't many people entirely aware of/in control of their own projections. Most of us probably have at least some defensive biases. 

 

 

some might be uncomfortable with what they have.  Other's are afraid of losing their special position they have because of their wealth.  e.g. if everyone is 'rich/elite/etc." - then no one is.

[Shoeless]

14 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

Yeah, this is kind of coming back to the "reverse snobbery" thing, isn't it? 

Lots of careers need specialized training. Specifically, STEM majors usually need the kind of specialized training you tend to get in college and graduate school. So, without even getting into the benefits of "softer" subjects like the humanities (which absolutely exist), if you believe that electricians should be trained as electricians, if you have a budding scientist/mathematician/whatever, their easiest career path probably involves college. 

That's what I was thinking.  Everyone gets defensive of the people they love that don't have a degree.  Instead of taking a "different strokes for different folks" approach, there's a tendency to poke holes in other other person's plan.  

I don't even have a 4 year degree, lol. I have 2 A.A.S. degrees.  Interestingly, it makes me the most educated woman on one side of my family (so I get bad attitude about my "Fancy" college learning) and looked down on by the other side of my family ("What a shame she never made anything of herself...all she has is basically vo-tech training!").  

I can't win, lol. 

Edited December 31, 2020 by MissLemon

[Not_a_Number]

OK, I'm sorry, but that quiz was absurd. I'm a first generation immigrant who moved at age 11; I have no financial capital backing me at all. But I worked hard and got a good degree and I married someone with a good job who likes to live in cities, and that has apparently made my bubble ridiculous. 

Immigrants largely move to cities, because it's where the jobs are. Am I really more "insulated" than people who live in different parts of America? I know people from a far greater number of cultures than they do. Why is one's bubble only about religion/politics? What about knowing people who speak different languages? What about being deeply immersed in one's heritage culture? I'm not "good friends" with my mom's Russian friends who are on the opposite end of the political spectrum from me, but I sure know them. 

Edited December 31, 2020 by Not_a_Number

[gardenmom5]

2 minutes ago, FuzzyCatz said:

 

But is this even a liberal thing?  I've never heard anyone say this before and it's not even really based in science because contact is not a huge driver of covid anyway.  Most of the urban liberal so-called "elite" I know as someone who would likely be categorized that way are  at least somewhat sensitive to the needs of a variety of socio-economic levels because they mix with a variety every day.  

This to me reads more as something some who doesn't mix outside their current socio-economic level kind of thing to say to me and nothing to do with being conservative or liberal. 

 

I heard it other places last summer from  socialist political elites.  Seemed to be more in the form of trial balloons to see what would float.  I just rolled my eyes.  Then she was repeating it.

She lives in a liberal bubble. (I'm probably the one conservative she talks to.  And that's not that much, nothing to do with politics.)    while she doesn't have a degree (her husband's family though high school was plenty) - her children do, and married into families where terminal degrees are common.**  One has a graduate degree, the other is starting a master's program next quarter.  She mixes with a variety of middle class incomes. (she's lower middle class.) - she doesn't mix with low-income.  I find it interesting that I have a higher income than her, and have had more up close and personal contact with low income than has she.  

 

** - funny- I wish I was there . . . . My brother (EE) is absolutely insufferable and thinks he knows everything about everything. (probably a narcissist) My brother met our niece's husband while he was working on a phD in math.   My brother proceeded to lecture him on math . . . . niece's husband thought he had someone he could talk to about math . . . .so he did . . . 🤣🤣🤣 . . . . let's just say brother was way out of his depth . . . 

[Pawz4me]

One more thing about that quiz that's making me very mad the more I think about it, and is an excellent example of reverse snobbery.

This question --

Quote

Have you ever held a job that caused something to hurt at the end of the day?

The question applies to any part of the body that hurts because of physical labor using the large muscles. Headaches don't count, neither does carpal tunnel syndrome, nor does a sore rear end from sitting all day in front of a computer screen. Sore feet from having to stand up for long periods of time, however, do count.

So temporary pain from a blue collar job (sore feet) is legit pain, but chronic, debilitating pain that often requires surgery (carpal tunnel syndrome) from an office job isn't.

Now the pickup truck question was kind of stupid--baffling but humorous. But that one is crazy, and an excellent example of reverse snobbery.

[Not_a_Number]

2 minutes ago, gardenmom5 said:

I heard it other places last summer from  socialist political elites.  Seemed to be more in the form of trial balloons to see what would float.  I just rolled my eyes.  Then she was repeating it.

She lives in a liberal bubble. (I'm probably the one conservative she talks to.  And that's not that much, nothing to do with politics.)    while she doesn't have a degree (her husband's family though high school was plenty) - her children do, and married into families where terminal degrees are common.**  One has a graduate degree, the other is starting a master's program next quarter.  She mixes with a variety of middle class incomes. (she's lower middle class.) - she doesn't mix with low-income.  I find it interesting that I have a higher income than her, and have had more up close and personal contact with low income than has she.  

 

** - funny- I wish I was there . . . . My brother (EE) is absolutely insufferable and thinks he knows everything about everything. (probably a narcissist) My brother met our niece's husband while he was working on a phD in math.   My brother proceeded to lecture him on math . . . . niece's husband thought he had someone he could talk to about math . . . .so he did . . . 🤣🤣🤣 . . . . let's just say brother was way out of his depth . . . 

I haven't heard anyone reasonable say it, either. 

The quiz also made me realize something: somehow, people seem to squish all liberals into some sort of weird homogeneous "bubble." I know lots of people who vote for Democrats who have literally NOTHING in common. I know crazy anti-vaccine liberals, and Jewish liberals who vote that way because they don't trust the right for obvious reasons, and I know social justice warriors, and I know lower income liberals. 

I don't think "people who live in cities" are NEARLY as culturally homogeneous as people think. I would guess the alternative is MUCH more homogeneous. 

 

[Laurie]

I recently watched a you tube video made by a high school teacher in Houston of a walking tour in what she calls a "wealthy" neighborhood.    She goes around insulting the expensive "mini mansions" and "mcmansions", including their lawns, but clearly approves of smaller  "original houses".   

The funny thing is that this woman's you tube channel is devoted to expensive things like designer handbags, jewelry, and other things she considers luxury living.  Her Christmas haul video begins with a disclaimer about how she realizes that  it's "excess" and not everyone can be surrounded by Chanel, Dior, Louis Vuitton, and other high-end shopping bags of stuff that she buys for herself or that other people give her...and in her mind this must mean that she's absolved, unlike the people who live in mcmansions but don't post a sign on their "weird"  rich people lawn to acknowledge their excess/privilege to passersby.   

I don't know if this is an example of reverse snobbery, or just a case of sour grapes.  

(And P.S. Houston...you must be paying your teachers too much.)

 

[Shoeless]

28 minutes ago, Pawz4me said:

One more thing about that quiz that's making me very mad the more I think about it, and is an excellent example of reverse snobbery.

This question --

So temporary pain from a blue collar job (sore feet) is legit pain, but chronic, debilitating pain that often requires surgery (carpal tunnel syndrome) from an office job isn't.

Now the pickup truck question was kind of stupid--baffling but humorous. But that one is crazy, and an excellent example of reverse snobbery.

Yeah, that quiz was weird.  Whomever developed it must not have priced pick up trucks recently.  They aren't exactly a frugal choice.

[historically accurate]

36 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

I haven't heard anyone reasonable say it, either. 

The quiz also made me realize something: somehow, people seem to squish all liberals into some sort of weird homogeneous "bubble." I know lots of people who vote for Democrats who have literally NOTHING in common. I know crazy anti-vaccine liberals, and Jewish liberals who vote that way because they don't trust the right for obvious reasons, and I know social justice warriors, and I know lower income liberals. 

I don't think "people who live in cities" are NEARLY as culturally homogeneous as people think. I would guess the alternative is MUCH more homogeneous. 

 

My dad was a die-hard Democrat, and he worked as an assembler in an auto factory for 40 years. He had a high school diploma, and he never lived in a city bigger than 20,000.  

I always kinda snicker at the "coastal elite Democrat" stereotype. In my family, it's the blue collar men & women who live in rural & suburban communities who lean Democrat. The Republican party was for the rich banker types according to them. 

[kesmom]

5 hours ago, Carol in Cal. said:

There IS a pretty difficult aspect to this—a feeling that is sometimes transmitted to children that if they surpass their parents in education or achievements, that is disrespectful or in some other way very suspect.  That’s a pretty counterproductive view and puts kids in a very bad bind.  

I never really thought about this too much until I read a book about Jewish parenting that articulated the opposite—hoping your children would do better than you did.  It made me think about what I have seen where parents actually kind of hold their children back.

I definitely saw this sometimes in the rural area where I grew up - compounded with the fear of kids moving away. They know that a STEM etc career is unlikely to bring them back home.

 

 

[gardenmom5]

17 minutes ago, MissLemon said:

That's what I was thinking.  Everyone gets defensive of the people they love that don't have a degree.  Instead of taking a "different strokes for different folks" approach, there's a tendency to poke holes in other other person's plan.  

I don't even have a 4 year degree, lol. I have 2 A.A.S. degrees.  Interestingly, it makes me the most educated woman on one side of my family (so I get bad attitude about my "Fancy" college learning) and looked down on by the other side of my family ("What a shame she never made anything of herself...all she has is basically vo-tech training!").  

I can't win, lol. 

I think this may be a contributing factor as to why  my dsil is not currently  speaking to his parents.  He had an AAS, and was working for a company as a salesman and making very good money.    His parents were on his case about his "inadequate" education and insisting he get an education and "make something of himself".  (being a salesman wasn't good enough.)   He has all of his degrees framed and on the wall in his office. (so I know what all of them are.)  another AAS, a BS, a bunch of certificates in his field (including one from MIT), and then after he married 2dd (she has a doc), he went and got an MBA.  He has pushed himself and pushed himself.   And stopped speaking to his parents.

 

 

[gardenmom5]

3 minutes ago, historically accurate said:

My dad was a die-hard Democrat, and he worked as an assembler in an auto factory for 40 years. He had a high school diploma, and he never lived in a city bigger than 20,000.  

I always kinda snicker at the "coastal elite Democrat" stereotype. In my family, it's the blue collar men & women who live in rural & suburban communities who lean Democrat. The Republican party was for the rich banker types according to them. 

My grandparents were die-hard dems.   My grandfather had an 8th grade education.  He grew up on a farm, and went to work as a mechanic in the county seat. (today there are <7,000 people in the entire county.).  Came to seattle to work for boeing during the war.  The way you hear my grandmother tell it - they came to seattle so she could work as a clerk in her brother-in-law's grocery store.   She was incredibly UNsophisticated about money.  just . . wow . . . (but very frugal in that she saved money.  makes me think of scrooge McDuck.  incredibly avaricious.)  She also stopped attending church when they moved here because the people were all snooty. - no dear, it was you.

I wish they'd stayed in Missouri - I think she would have been a happier person.

[popmom]

51 minutes ago, Pawz4me said:

One more thing about that quiz that's making me very mad the more I think about it, and is an excellent example of reverse snobbery.

This question --

So temporary pain from a blue collar job (sore feet) is legit pain, but chronic, debilitating pain that often requires surgery (carpal tunnel syndrome) from an office job isn't.

Now the pickup truck question was kind of stupid--baffling but humorous. But that one is crazy, and an excellent example of reverse snobbery.

You can click on "why this question".  I think it's a valid question. I seriously doubt that he believes carpal tunnel isn't legit pain. The point is that those in professions that get injuries like carpal tunnel tend to be much higher wage earners. 

[popmom]

57 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

I haven't heard anyone reasonable say it, either. 

The quiz also made me realize something: somehow, people seem to squish all liberals into some sort of weird homogeneous "bubble." I know lots of people who vote for Democrats who have literally NOTHING in common. I know crazy anti-vaccine liberals, and Jewish liberals who vote that way because they don't trust the right for obvious reasons, and I know social justice warriors, and I know lower income liberals. 

I don't think "people who live in cities" are NEARLY as culturally homogeneous as people think. I would guess the alternative is MUCH more homogeneous. 

 

I'm not sure what you mean by alternative. The fact that you have to guess is sort of telling.

 

Should the "alternative" be squished into a homogeneous bubble?

[Shoeless]

15 minutes ago, gardenmom5 said:

I think this may be a contributing factor as to why  my dsil is not currently  speaking to his parents.  He had an AAS, and was working for a company as a salesman and making very good money.    His parents were on his case about his "inadequate" education and insisting he get an education and "make something of himself".  (being a salesman wasn't good enough.)   He has all of his degrees framed and on the wall in his office. (so I know what all of them are.)  another AAS, a BS, a bunch of certificates in his field (including one from MIT), and then after he married 2dd (she has a doc), he went and got an MBA.  He has pushed himself and pushed himself.   And stopped speaking to his parents.

 

 

It has definitely caused tension between me and one parent. 

I pay my bills, I have never been arrested or in jail, I vote, I volunteer, I served my country, bought a house, have a kid, got married, and have had paid jobs that support me. Yet...disappointment from the parents because I didn't "make something" of myself (oddly, the same parents that were opposed to me becoming a scientist!).

It's a game I can't win, so I have stopped playing. 

[popmom]

1 hour ago, Pawz4me said:

One more thing about that quiz that's making me very mad the more I think about it, and is an excellent example of reverse snobbery.

This question --

So temporary pain from a blue collar job (sore feet) is legit pain, but chronic, debilitating pain that often requires surgery (carpal tunnel syndrome) from an office job isn't.

Now the pickup truck question was kind of stupid--baffling but humorous. But that one is crazy, and an excellent example of reverse snobbery.

Also, it's not just sore feet. I worked part time as a janitor for awhile--over a year. Sore back, arms regularly, and tendonitis in my elbows from mopping. I eventually had to quit because I was afraid I was permanently damaging my elbows. Fortunately, I was in a position to be able to quit. Most janitors aren't.

Edited December 31, 2020 by popmom

[popmom]

3 hours ago, Quill said:

It’s tangential, but dd’s engagement ring is a lab-created “diamond.” I think many young people are going this route because a) they can have a prettier jewel than they could otherwise afford; b) they feel better about the fair trade aspect; c) they feel better not sourcing from the earth. Win-win-win. 

Moissanite is another alternative.

[Not_a_Number]

17 minutes ago, popmom said:

I'm not sure what you mean by alternative. The fact that you have to guess is sort of telling.

Should the "alternative" be squished into a homogeneous bubble?

I do think rural America is more homogenous than urban America, yes. (And Sweden is also more homogenous than America. "Homogenous" isn't a bad thing -- it's just a measure of similarity.) 

And this quiz basically says you're in a bubble if you're not in touch with rural America. There are LOTS of things you can be exposed to or not exposed to. How many immigrants do you know? How many Jewish people? How many black people? How many Asians? How many countries have you lived in? How many countries do you have family members in? 

The idea that because one is not exposed to a particular facet of American culture (one that's not a majority of the population, in fact -- more people live in cities and their suburbs than not), you're in a bubble seems ludicrous. I've lived in 3 countries. I'm fluent in 2 languages. I have family members all around the globe. But I'm the sheltered one because I don't eat at Denny's? 

Edited December 31, 2020 by Not_a_Number

[popmom]

15 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

I do think rural America is more homogenous than urban America, yes. (And Sweden is also more homogenous than America. "Homogenous" isn't a bad thing -- it's just a measure of similarity.) 

And this quiz basically says you're in a bubble if you're not in touch with rural America. There are LOTS of things you can be exposed to or not exposed to. How many immigrants do you know? How many Jewish people? How many black people? How many Asians? How many countries have you lived in? How many countries do you have family members in? 

The idea that because one is not exposed to a particular facet of American culture (one that's not a majority of the population, in fact -- more people live in cities and their suburbs than not), you're in a bubble seems ludicrous. I've lived in 3 countries. I'm fluent in 2 languages. I have family members all around the globe. But I'm the sheltered one because I don't eat at Denny's? 

Wait...it seemed to me that you felt that is was a bad thing to say that liberals are a homogeneous group. So when you said that about the alternative--I don't know how else I could have interpreted that homogeneity is not a bad thing. 

I can only speak for the 2 states where I have lived, but the people living in rural areas are pretty much the way you described the Democrats you know. very eclectic.

To the bolded... I've read what you wrote several times. Look at what you are saying. The short answer to your question is "yes". Just as you believe homogeneous is not a bad thing. Being in a bubble doesn't make you a bad person. I see it just as something to be aware of--that it can cloud our opinions or judgments.

Edited December 31, 2020 by popmom

[Sneezyone]

6 hours ago, TravelingChris said:

Well I am not anti-intellectual but am, in some regards, anti-elites.  I guess it depends on what you mean as elites.  I am anti coastal NYC/Boston types and to a lesser degree some of the big cities on the other coast who A) think that reality in nameyourbigcity is your reality in the rest of US/Canada?wherever since I have actually seen and heard this in other countries too B) think that based on their lives, they can tell you what is right for you, your community, etc.   And you can see this on TV or read in books and media.  I got an interesting cookbook from dh for Christmas with a lot of recipes I want to try- but the author, who lives in a very large city in Canada, seems to think all the rest of us reading the book have equal access to ingredients like she does.  That is a bland example because it is just kind of a dumb suggestion- go to a certain type of Asian store-not the kind we have here nor the kind available in large proportions of cities and of course, no rural areas.  But elites who constantly harp on stuff like living your life themes that have zero to do with people not in the biggest cities, or people who offer political or other solutions that totally ignore the realities of most lives- like anyone whose life doesn't have a lot of leisure time or anyone who isn't in perfect health or anyone who isn't wealthy  or (I could name so many examples as to write a book)>  

White elites who deem to speak for blacks or Native Americans or who have you.  Deciding that a so-called activist of whatever group actually speaks for all that group,.  Elites who think that any group of people is all the same and thinks all the same be it disabled, blacks, rural, whoever.  

 

There is an excellent book that discussed the divide and had a quiz in the back to see how elitist you were.  Coming Apart by Charles Murray.  And the quiz is available on PBS at https://www.pbs.org/newshour/economy/do-you-live-in-a-bubble-a-quiz-2

 

I’ve done that quiz many times and it’s always the same, right smack dab in the middle...57. I have friends and family on all sides of the income/education divide. Both of my parents are degreed but we lived feast or famine. My dad deliberately made us live in a poor neighborhood while my mom, post divorce, moved us to a suburban (read smaaaaaalllll and provincial) southern community. I’ve seen/heard all the attitudes. It’s in part why I think I’ve always interpreted snobbery as a universal characteristic.

[popmom]

2 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

I’ve done that quiz many times and it’s always the same, right smack dab in the middle...57. I have friends and family on all sides of the income/education divide. Both of my parents are degreed but we lived feast or famine. My dad deliberately made us live in a poor neighborhood while my mom, post divorce, moved us to a suburban (read smaaaaaalllll and provincial) southern community. I’ve seen/heard all the attitudes. It’s in part why I think I’ve always interpreted snobbery as a universal characteristic.

I'm similar. My score was 58. 

[popmom]

20 minutes ago, popmom said:

Wait...it seemed to me that you felt that is was a bad thing to say that liberals are a homogeneous group. So when you said that about the alternative--I don't know how else I could have interpreted that homogeneity is not a bad thing. 

I can only speak for the 2 states where I have lived, but the people living in rural areas are pretty much the way you described the Democrats you know. very eclectic.

To the bolded... I've read what you wrote several times. Look at what you are saying. The short answer to your question is "yes". Just as you believe homogeneous is not a bad thing. Being in a bubble doesn't make you a bad person. I see it just as something to be aware of--that it can cloud our opinions or judgments.

quoting myself to add...

Liberals/urbanites are not the only ones living in bubbles. So I get how the quiz could sort of come off as an attack. Rural people have their own bubbles. We all do. The problem is--and I think why the quiz and the awareness is important--is that Americans in working class/middle class situations--no matter where they live-- don't have a seat at the table when it comes to policy making. If you look at the make up of our government and our courts, lower wage earners are extremely underrepresented. 

Edited December 31, 2020 by popmom

[Sneezyone]

21 minutes ago, popmom said:

I'm similar. My score was 58. 

Yep, I agree with you about the heterogeneity too. I have had long and heart to heart conversations with dedicated Republican voters (not conservative people, there’s a difference) where we largely agreed on 95% of issues. These are people with whom I seemingly had nothing else in common but a workplace or school community. Political affiliation is, IMO, largely culturally- not policy-driven these days. The inability to adopt compromises when there is so much common ground is a great source of frustration for me. Stopping there.

Edited December 31, 2020 by Sneezyone

[Not_a_Number]

26 minutes ago, popmom said:

Wait...it seemed to me that you felt that is was a bad thing to say that liberals are a homogeneous group. So when you said that about the alternative--I don't know how else I could have interpreted that homogeneity is not a bad thing. 

I can only speak for the 2 states where I have lived, but the people living in rural areas are pretty much the way you described the Democrats you know. very eclectic.

To the bolded... I've read what you wrote several times. Look at what you are saying. The short answer to your question is "yes". Just as you believe homogeneous is not a bad thing. Being in a bubble doesn't make you a bad person. I see it just as something to be aware of--that it can cloud our opinions or judgments.

It's not a bad thing, it's just inaccurate.

As for me being in a bubble: I haven't been exposed to a particular facet of American culture -- I grant that, I'm not in touch with working class culture except occasionally online. 

However, you haven't been exposed to lots of stuff I've been exposed to. Why am I the one who's in a bubble and you're the one who's not? Why are all the things I happen to know irrelevant to my perspective? It's not like I've lived some sort of sheltered, privileged, upper middle class life... 

Edited December 31, 2020 by Not_a_Number

[Not_a_Number]

15 minutes ago, popmom said:

If you look at the make up of our government and our courts, lower wage earners are extremely underrepresented. 

Yeah, and that seems like a real problem. I'm not arguing with that. 

What are we defining as a "lower wage earner," by the way? Is that how you grew up or where you made it to? Does it have to be working class? 

[TravelingChris]

6 hours ago, gardenmom5 said:

Is she from Vancouver?  they do have one of the largest Asian populations in the world outside of Asia.  It was interesting to walk through Richmond - McD's has rice balls . . . 

 

My ultra-liberal sister was pushing for going to a cashless society - so only credit/debit cards. (to help cut the spread of covid on cash.).   I explained to her how utterly classist that was of her, and the number of people that would be disenfranchised by forcing that on society.   

No, Toronto

[Not_a_Number]

Just now, TravelingChris said:

No, Toronto

Also a high Asian population, lol. I lived in Toronto in middle school and high school.... 

[TravelingChris]

13 hours ago, Carrie12345 said:

That’s actually what I meant - billionaires CAN give TONS of money. He’s up to more than 50% at this point.  Bezos? Like, 1%. And he won’t even take good care of his employees.  I will never be able to understand that kind of behavior.

I dislike Bezos.  He claimed he only made 70K in income and Larry Page of Google claimed he made $1, 

 

[Sneezyone]

19 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

It's not a bad thing, it's just inaccurate.

As for me being in a bubble: I haven't been exposed to a particular facet of American culture -- I grant that, I'm not in touch with working class culture except occasionally online. 

However, you haven't been exposed to lots of stuff I've been exposed to. Why am I the one who's in a bubble and you're the one who's not? Why are all the things I happen to know irrelevant to my perspective? It's not like I've lived some sort of sheltered, privileged, upper middle class life... 

What things do you suppose folks in the middle haven’t been exposed to? Immigrant life? Many of my neighborhood friends were the children of south Asian immigrants and my kids attended schools in another country with host country nationals. DH has coworkers from other nations as ‘exchange’ sailors too, lol. Every potluck we attend features food from all over the world. Multiple languages? Yep, got that. Urban living? Living abroad? Check and check.

 

6 minutes ago, Thatboyofmine said:

I just took the quiz and made a 50.  But there’s three descriptions for a score of 50.   I’m not sure how to interpret that.  
 

The survey really did attempt to get at the duration (a decade or more) and quality of experiences with different types of people. The explanations show that there’s more than one way to end up in the middle—starting life in one place and ending up somewhere else economically or geographically, having education but no means or means with no education. Having meaningful friendships with people in very different circumstances coupled with the other two things will do it too.

Edited December 31, 2020 by Sneezyone

[TravelingChris]

8 hours ago, PeterPan said:

You struggle with guilt or jealousy? Guilt I understand. If you travel you quickly realize how much better almost anyone in our country has it than much of the rest of the world. 
 

Jealousy I don’t really understand. I’ve been rich and poor and it’s always about contentment. Money doesn’t make you happy nor does it buy love. Now it buys DOGS which is sorta like buying love, but even many who struggle have a dog. 

Oh and this brings me to another point-  People who raise themselves up by thinking less of others.  I am specifically thinking of a cruise we were on where we went on several cruise land trips- I have no idea if the same people were on both of the trips we were on- one in Costa Rica to see the jungle and one in Colombia to see a museum.  But on both trips, some women kept going on and on about the poor children- how miserably poor and miserable they were.  Well they may have been materially poor but they sure weren't miserable.  The kids we saw in Costa Rica were happy playing soccer outside, and they lived in the country and there house was small but not run down or anything.  The kids we saw in Colombia, I have no clue how these women were deciding they were poor--we were in a city and these were clean, uniform dressed kids going to school--nothing screamed out poverty to me - but these women seemed to have the attitude that the US is the best and all these other countries were full of people who deserve pity.  It sickened me.