Reverse snobbery is a thing. Have you experienced it?

[popmom]

I certainly have experienced it. It's so interesting to me. Not surprising. Just interesting. It's human nature. 

Edited December 30, 2020 by popmom

[Ausmumof3]

Yep.  I think people feel comfier with people they perceive as like them in wealth/intellect etc.  

[Sneezyone]

What is reverse snobbery? 

[Ausmumof3]

1 minute ago, Sneezyone said:

What is reverse snobbery? 

To me it means not wanting to be with people you perceive as superior to you in some way like in wealth, achievement or social class.

 

I know for me I feel less comfy around people that seem wealthier than us.  I guess at a certain level you just know there will be social stuff they will do that you can be part of and you will probably spend too much time trying to make polite excuses when the program isn’t in your budget.  It’s probably wrong but it’s easier.

Also, I’m sure many here have found themselves downplaying academic achievements or intellectual interests from time to time because you know that to some people it will be intimidating and mean the end of the friendship.

I think eventually healthy human beings can figure out how to navigate that stuff and still have successful relationships though.  

[Sneezyone]

16 minutes ago, Ausmumof3 said:

To me it means not wanting to be with people you perceive as superior to you in some way like in wealth, achievement or social class.

 

I know for me I feel less comfy around people that seem wealthier than us.  I guess at a certain level you just know there will be social stuff they will do that you can be part of and you will probably spend too much time trying to make polite excuses when the program isn’t in your budget.  It’s probably wrong but it’s easier.

Also, I’m sure many here have found themselves downplaying academic achievements or intellectual interests from time to time because you know that to some people it will be intimidating and mean the end of the friendship.

I think eventually healthy human beings can figure out how to navigate that stuff and still have successful relationships though.  

Huh. I always thought a snob was just someone who was dismissive or rude, condescending to outsiders. I never thought any income category was exempt.

Edited December 30, 2020 by Sneezyone

[gardenmom5]

17 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

What is reverse snobbery? 

the snobbery of those on the bottom looking down at those higher than them.  in wealth, in education, in intellect.  in opportunity, etc.

FOR EXAMPLE: I've also seen people (with college educations) - advocating how worthless college is and how all young people should be doing vocational training instead.    They push a perception that those who go to college are all entitled brats that are a drain on society, and those that do vocational training have value in society.

so yes - I've encountered it.  I'm pretty darn sick and tired of it too.

Edited December 30, 2020 by gardenmom5

[Ausmumof3]

33 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

Huh. I always thought a snob was just someone who was dismissive or rude, condescending to outsiders. I never thought any income category was exempt.

This is the dictionary.com screenshot but I agree that it’s used more widely than that (lol... and I’m not a definition snob 😆)

[Shoeless]

My DH is a reverse snob when it comes to college education. He speaks very negatively of people with college degrees.  They are "out of touch" and "spoiled", and has a lot of unfavorable opinions about people who went to college right out of high school. Lots of comments that having a degree in XYZ doesn't mean you actually know how to do anything.  It blows my mind because it's so reminiscent of how my FIL would trash-talk DHs career interests as a kid. DH has done well for himself with a GED, but he won't acknowledge that he could have had an easier path to walk if he'd had a 2 or 4 year degree. He says "Well, if they won't even consider me because I don't have a degree, despite having X years of experience, then I wouldn't want to work for them anyway!"  

It makes for some challenging conversations when I discuss future education goals for our son. 😕 

[Ausmumof3]

2 hours ago, Margaret in CO said:

We have relatives that do this--always running down anyone who has had a college education and who have done something with their lives. I see it on  FB pages where you put your education--that they'll list "school of hard knocks" or some such. I've watched a hs blogger that does this--she's built a blog around this. She's constantly tearing down any student with aspirations higher than a GED level education, instead of saying, "Let's all encourage our kids to go as far as they can." It's particularly sad when there is a kid who is interested in higher ed, but because the person is so hung up on being proud of being blue collar, the kid is short-changed. As a Scout leader, I've seen it over and over. Whilst we don't want to discourage kids who are interested in trades, I think we are equally culpable in discouraging kids in careers that require more education. It's always sad when I visit with a Scout and his parents and they make statements like, "Oh, he'll catch up in math when he decides to." Yeah, he might. But why pay college tuition for things he should have learned in high school that you dismissed as not needed?

It seems awfully common in hs circles, "She just needs to become a good wife and mother! We don't want OUR daughter to get puffed up! It's not for the likes of US!" I had a woman, many years ago pull this on me at a CHEC convention. We were standing companionably, looking at curriculum, and the woman commented, "Well, MY daughter doesn't need to learn any higher math. She's going to be a wife and mother!" I'm afraid I rounded on her, pointing out that sometimes men DIE! My dd had just lost her fiancé, the fellow who was headed to med school in a month. Yeah, sometimes women don't get married. Sometimes their husbands leave or die or become disabled. Sometimes uneducated hs moms give birth to children who clearly are cut out for engineering school!

I think it can stem from deep-rooted insecurities. 

I think some of the issue is this “how far they can go” thinking - as though all humans are on the same linear road and some will go far and others won’t.  Instead of celebrating all the different paths and contributions people make in whichever direction they go.  

[DawnM]

I have encountered some of this.   It always amazes me that the same people who trash college degrees still go to the doctor when they need one, still send their kids to school to be educated by college degreed people, still hire a lawyer when needed, still want their commercial pilots to be educated, etc.....

Honestly, the more they protest, the more it comes across as sour grapes.

 

[Happy2BaMom]

I think reverse snobbery it's worse now than ever. There is real disdain for anyone perceived to be an "elite" in education, with an assumption that someone's uneducated opinion is as valid as someone else's decades of advanced study. While there are some valid reasons for that sentiment coming to be (a lot to do with the alignment of of higher education with corporate interests, IMHO, with the subsequent steamrolling over community concerns and alternative pathways), it's also true that disdain for education - whether in an individual or a country - is not a good thing in a complex modern world.

I also think of my grandparents...neither formally educated beyond high school, but two of the most well-read and well-educated people I've ever known. They were not afraid to seek out information and differing opinions.....they were intellectually hungry. And I guess that's what has also really changed in the last few decades. Those who are not, by society's standards, "well-educated", now seem to disdain learning in almost any form. I've seen that in the hs world as well. But when I started hsing 15 years ago there seemed to be a real shared passion among hsers to provide a much better education for their children than public school, regardless of the chosen hsing method. Now it largely seems to be a defensive posture, "well, lots of kids are behind in public school, too" or some other pointing out how education isn't necessary.

Many other countries, however, are not proudly proclaiming their right to be ignorant. Instead, they are pursuing us - and higher education - with steely-eyed determination.

[Guest]

2 hours ago, Margaret in CO said:

We have relatives that do this--always running down anyone who has had a college education and who have done something with their lives. I see it on  FB pages where you put your education--that they'll list "school of hard knocks" or some such. I've watched a hs blogger that does this--she's built a blog around this. She's constantly tearing down any student with aspirations higher than a GED level education, instead of saying, "Let's all encourage our kids to go as far as they can." It's particularly sad when there is a kid who is interested in higher ed, but because the person is so hung up on being proud of being blue collar, the kid is short-changed. As a Scout leader, I've seen it over and over. Whilst we don't want to discourage kids who are interested in trades, I think we are equally culpable in discouraging kids in careers that require more education. It's always sad when I visit with a Scout and his parents and they make statements like, "Oh, he'll catch up in math when he decides to." Yeah, he might. But why pay college tuition for things he should have learned in high school that you dismissed as not needed?

It seems awfully common in hs circles, "She just needs to become a good wife and mother! We don't want OUR daughter to get puffed up! It's not for the likes of US!" I had a woman, many years ago pull this on me at a CHEC convention. We were standing companionably, looking at curriculum, and the woman commented, "Well, MY daughter doesn't need to learn any higher math. She's going to be a wife and mother!" I'm afraid I rounded on her, pointing out that sometimes men DIE! My dd had just lost her fiancé, the fellow who was headed to med school in a month. Yeah, sometimes women don't get married. Sometimes their husbands leave or die or become disabled. Sometimes uneducated hs moms give birth to children who clearly are cut out for engineering school!

I think it can stem from deep-rooted insecurities. 

Everything, this. I totally agree and it seriously plucks my nerves when people encourage their kids to “goal low”. 

Oftentimes when I see discouragement of college, the parents have not prepared financially (meaning both not saving money OR simply, not looking for a solid financial path). I know someone who had visions of sports scholarships, but now that kiddo is in teen years with un-spectacular athletic skills, the parents are now reporting far and wide that kiddo “doesn’t seem cut out for college” and should therefore learn a trade.

(Lest anyone misunderstand, these are NOT low working class parents who can’t find a way to pay for college. One parent has an advanced degree and a high position job. They could now, or in years past, have planned to send all their kids to college. But they instead put tens of thousands into sports, with the idea it would all be worth it when the kids were tapped for D1 scholarships. Now that seems unlikely, they are sour-graping on the worth of college completely.) 

[Pawz4me]

13 minutes ago, Happy2BaMom said:

I think reverse snobbery it's worse now than ever. There is real disdain for anyone perceived to be an "elite" in education, with an assumption that someone's uneducated opinion is as valid as someone else's decades of advanced study. While there are some valid reasons for that sentiment coming to be (a lot to do with the alignment of of higher education with corporate interests, IMHO, with the subsequent steamrolling over community concerns and alternative pathways), it's also true that disdain for education - whether in an individual or a country - is not a good thing in a complex modern world.

I also think of my grandparents...neither formally educated beyond high school, but two of the most well-read and well-educated people I've ever known. They were not afraid to seek out information and differing opinions.....they were intellectually hungry. And I guess that's what has also really changed in the last few decades. Those who are not, by society's standards, "well-educated", now seem to disdain learning in almost any form. I've seen that in the hs world as well. But when I started hsing 15 years ago there seemed to be a real shared passion among hsers to provide a much better education for their children than public school, regardless of the chosen hsing method. Now it largely seems to be a defensive posture, "well, lots of kids are behind in public school, too" or some other pointing out how education isn't necessary.

Many other countries, however, are not proudly proclaiming their right to be ignorant. Instead, they are pursuing us - and higher education - with steely-eyed determination.

QFT

I was going to simply post that the trend of anti-intellectualism (or anti-"elites") in the US is absolutely a type of reverse snobbery. You explained it in good detail.

[Guest]

12 minutes ago, DawnM said:

I have encountered some of this.   It always amazes me that the same people who trash college degrees still go to the doctor when they need one, still send their kids to school to be educated by college degreed people, still hire a lawyer when needed, still want their commercial pilots to be educated, etc.....

Honestly, the more they protest, the more it comes across as sour grapes.

 

I saw this sentiment early in the pandemic, with memes about how, “funny how all the people running the country now don’t have college degrees”. Umm, what? I mean, don’t get me wrong, I had much sympathy for the grocery clerks and janitors who continued to go to work. But, as I said back then, and we see it vividly now, when we get this virus put behind us, it will be because smart, highly-educated doctors and scientists and engineers have created vaccines and treatments, not to mention refrigerator system and distribution strategies, to beat the virus down. Not to mention the health care workers who all have degrees. 

[Carrie12345]

I have some elements of reverse snobbery (by some definitions. I didn’t know there were so many, lol.)

As an example, people who hoard billions of dollars. I mean, I could never.  One would be more than enough, tyvm. 😉. If I were to create more than that, I’d want it to benefit others in order to be worthy of the first one. (And I’m exaggerating. I don’t need a whole billion. 😄 )

College degrees... I have much respect for them and the work that goes into them. But I don’t think a Harvard grad is necessarily a better person than a high school graduate and I’m not going to pretend that they are unless I actually do find out that they’re amazing.

And I don’t understand buying diamonds. It seems like a crazy amount of money to support a dirty industry.

It’s not specific wealth, power, or intellect that I’m judgy about, but some of the actions that are often associated with those things. 

[MEmama]

Oh definitely. It’s not just an American thing for sure, though.
 

 

 

[Carrie12345]

Oh, as far as experiencing it...  I suppose I’ve gotten a lot of “must be nice” when it comes to sah and homeschooling.  I can kind of understand that, but my journey started with being unable to afford daycare.  In the long run, I guess it IS nice, but it didn’t feel that way when we could have used some extra income.

And when I can out-debate a certain someone, they like to tell me how they don’t have the time to sit around researching things. That always makes me want to run out and buy some bonbons.

[Clemsondana]

We see all sorts of attitudes.  My husband and I both have STEM PhDs, but only 1 of our parents, an elementary school teacher, has a 4 year degree.  Depending on the situation, we could be at a gathering with a bunch of other PhDs, we could be with a group where most have college degrees, or we could be with people where only a few, mostly the teachers, have a college degree.  We do a lot of code switching.  🙂  But, we've been among highly educated people who think that because they are well educated they are smarter and thus are authorities on everything...and we've been among those who are quick to say that something isn't their area of expertise, so all they have to contribute is some musings.  We've been with less credentialed people who think that more educated people should be listened to because they are smart (whether they are knowledgeable about the topic or not) and we've heard comments about educated people who don't know anything about the real world.  

But, all of the above are true, to some extent.  People with certain degrees are trained to think about problems in ways that others are not...but that doesn't mean that they understand all factors that affect the problem, or understand how humans will react to their proposed solutions.  Plenty of teachers complain about credentialed 'educators' who don't seem to have ever met a real child.  On the flip side, I can only last so long at some academic gatherings because, as I tell my husband, there isn't room in the room for me and everybody else's ego.  My family sometimes jokes about 'who we would want in our compound when the apocalypse hits' and, while there are some highly educated people on the list there are also a number of not-particularly-educated people who are fantastic problem solvers or hard workers.  

Knowing that our kids are likely to encounter all of the perspectives above, we teach them to respect peoples expertise but to not assume that it gives their opinions too much weight.  A scientist can say that if X then Y, but maybe you need the insight of a religious leader or a teacher or just an older, wiser person to help you figure out what to do with that information.  I thought one of my kids put it well when we read a chapter in Screwtape Letters about the topic.  They couldn't understand why somebody educated would be thought of as 'better' - their understanding was that expertise only made you 'more important' for the tiny amount of time when your expertise was directly needed, but you being the best at A didn't matter if the problem was in unrelated area B.   

Edited December 30, 2020 by Clemsondana

[Katy]

1 hour ago, Carrie12345 said:

I have some elements of reverse snobbery (by some definitions. I didn’t know there were so many, lol.)

As an example, people who hoard billions of dollars. I mean, I could never.  One would be more than enough, tyvm. 😉. If I were to create more than that, I’d want it to benefit others in order to be worthy of the first one. (And I’m exaggerating. I don’t need a whole billion. 😄 )

College degrees... I have much respect for them and the work that goes into them. But I don’t think a Harvard grad is necessarily a better person than a high school graduate and I’m not going to pretend that they are unless I actually do find out that they’re amazing.

And I don’t understand buying diamonds. It seems like a crazy amount of money to support a dirty industry.

It’s not specific wealth, power, or intellect that I’m judgy about, but some of the actions that are often associated with those things. 

No one “hoards billions of dollars.”  People become billionaires either by solving small problems with something that billions of people use every day, or by solving big problems that large sectors of a fringe market pays a lot of money to use every day. Then they either have an IPO (sell stock), or they sell their company to a bigger corporation that’s already had an IPO, and generally the sale is negotiated with very little cash and a large amount of shares. So basically large portions of their billions are imaginary and legally cannot be sold and redistributed quickly or the stock price would crash, literally defrauding honest investors who just liked the company. 

[DawnM]

3 hours ago, MissLemon said:

My DH is a reverse snob when it comes to college education. He speaks very negatively of people with college degrees.  They are "out of touch" and "spoiled", and has a lot of unfavorable opinions about people who went to college right out of high school. Lots of comments that having a degree in XYZ doesn't mean you actually know how to do anything.  It blows my mind because it's so reminiscent of how my FIL would trash-talk DHs career interests as a kid. DH has done well for himself with a GED, but he won't acknowledge that he could have had an easier path to walk if he'd had a 2 or 4 year degree. He says "Well, if they won't even consider me because I don't have a degree, despite having X years of experience, then I wouldn't want to work for them anyway!"  

It makes for some challenging conversations when I discuss future education goals for our son. 😕 

 

My husband was the first in his family to get a college degree.  He still sometimes makes comments about how he never learned anything in K-12.   Um......SSSSUUURRREEE.....that is why you were able to get to college and write a paper, because you never learned it......rrrriiiiigggghhhhhttttt.

It makes me nuts.

His dad was an electrician and worked his way up to district manager for a major company.   He did pretty well financially.   But he also never made comments about how college wasn't important, he actually strongly encouraged his kids to go because it would open doors for them.

[Carrie12345]

19 minutes ago, Katy said:

No one “hoards billions of dollars.”  People become billionaires either by solving small problems with something that billions of people use every day, or by solving big problems that large sectors of a fringe market pays a lot of money to use every day. Then they either have an IPO (sell stock), or they sell their company to a bigger corporation that’s already had an IPO, and generally the sale is negotiated with very little cash and a large amount of shares. So basically large portions of their billions are imaginary and legally cannot be sold and redistributed quickly or the stock price would crash, literally defrauding honest investors who just liked the company. 

Better let Warren Buffet know, lol.

[PeterPan]

3 hours ago, MissLemon said:

My DH is a reverse snob when it comes to college education. He speaks very negatively of people with college degrees.  They are "out of touch" and "spoiled", and has a lot of unfavorable opinions about people who went to college right out of high school. Lots of comments that having a degree in XYZ doesn't mean you actually know how to do anything.  It blows my mind because it's so reminiscent of how my FIL would trash-talk DHs career interests as a kid. DH has done well for himself with a GED, but he won't acknowledge that he could have had an easier path to walk if he'd had a 2 or 4 year degree. He says "Well, if they won't even consider me because I don't have a degree, despite having X years of experience, then I wouldn't want to work for them anyway!"  

It makes for some challenging conversations when I discuss future education goals for our son. 😕 

Have you seen Mike Rowe talking about this? I think there's balance. Sometimes people who haven't been to college (or who have!) think that getting the dc through college secures their future. For some kids it does and for some kids it really wasn't the ideal path. So it's kind of foolhardy either way. 

What you might do is instead emphasize WORK and then see what helps him on the path to do the work he wants to do. Make sense? I mean, we can go into this whole gig about how college is really about development, blah blah, but that's sorta poppycock. Most people don't have $50-200k to blow not to have it result in a better job. But in my small experience, it's not necessarily wise to push college as religion on people for whom it's not the right fit. It's more helpful to embrace the value of WORK and let the dc sort out what doors he needs to have open.

4 hours ago, Margaret in CO said:

the woman commented, "Well, MY daughter doesn't need to learn any higher math. She's going to be a wife and mother!" I'm afraid I rounded on her, pointing out that sometimes men DIE!

Bingo. I know multiple women who've had this happen. Some women go back and get their degrees so they can work. We've had this happen on the boards here. And ironically, the most wanting to be married young women I know are the ones going to college and the most career minded are the ones not, go figure. I think you love what you love, no matter where you are.

6 hours ago, popmom said:

I certainly have experienced it.

I does happen and is an issue, and I think maybe it's even subconscious, like basic issues like jealousy. On the other hand, I work hard to get around it (don't have people over to my house till they really know me, etc.), and I think if you're thinking you're on the receiving end of it that you also want to consider how much of it is just you. Like maybe I'm not actually a great conversationalist or my ds is not fun to play with and it wasn't *really* about my house or reverse snobbery, kwim? So I don't know, maybe that's playing devil's advocate here. 

But honestly, if you mean reverse snobbery about education, I don't hang in those circles. I think that would be a very negative vibe and I'd just move on. I try to be very accepting about the values and contributions of ALL people, irrespective of disabilities or income, so I'd expect similar graciousness. That just would not be my cuppa and I'd move on. 

[PeterPan]

12 minutes ago, DawnM said:

He still sometimes makes comments about how he never learned anything in K-12.

Oh there's definitely that I'm enlightened, I've attained, when you're the first to do something or think you've really hit a pinnacle. I had someone describe it to me as the "newly educated" haha. But usually they mature and grow out of it. If they're not, that's more kind of rigid thinking and on them. But it definitely happens, yes. I'd just hope to see some maturing and coming to the other side. 

It's like my 21 yo. She's highly enlightened now because she's has some college, so she's ready at all times to criticize anything about my parenting, lol. She hasn't grown out of it. And if you like the Bible, it even warns you of that saying knowledge puffs up. It can happen with adults and grad school too. So it's not a shock, but we'd definitely like to see them mature/change/grow. 

[Katy]

10 minutes ago, Carrie12345 said:

Better let Warren Buffet know, lol.

He’s not hoarding anything either. He started a company to help people invest, most of his money is also tied up in shares of his company, 100% of which is in the market (and is therefore highly regulated). He’s also pledged to give away more than 99% of his wealth, but again, because the money is in the stock market (and therefore imaginary), he can’t just sell off all of it at once. It has to be done very slowly to be legal at all. 

[Carrie12345]

1 minute ago, Katy said:

He’s not hoarding anything either. He started a company to help people invest, most of his money is also tied up in shares of his company, 100% of which is in the market (and is therefore highly regulated). He’s also pledged to give away more than 99% of his wealth, but again, because the money is in the stock market (and therefore imaginary), he can’t just sell off all of it at once. It has to be done very slowly to be legal at all. 

That’s actually what I meant - billionaires CAN give TONS of money. He’s up to more than 50% at this point.  Bezos? Like, 1%. And he won’t even take good care of his employees.  I will never be able to understand that kind of behavior.

[PeterPan]

50 minutes ago, Clemsondana said:

we've heard comments about educated people who don't know anything about the real world

This is such a frustration to me, because people are sometimes desparaging things they don't even understand. In my small experience, sometimes what's really going on (with this so _____ that they can't ______) is that the person being discussed has autism, social thinking problems, etc. So the person complaining is seeing a legit issue, but they're just totally missing the cause. And their complaints and truisms just are not helpful.

Total aside, but I had kind of assumed that the pro work, value of work, everyone should have the dignity of work example of the Trumps was resonating. I assume it did, though obviously it didn't sink into EVERYONE. But I think it's very striking that Trump said his kids should WORK and that they spend a lot of time emphasizing the dignity and value of WORK. I think it's the bridge, the humility to the rich/educated and the uplifting of all. That's just how I viewed it and I think it kind of firmed up in me things I knew but hadn't really put together. I WORK at home some poeple WORK at work. Some people WORK at volunteering. My dad is disabled and he WORKS at watering his plants and doing his laundry. Everyone is better with the dignity of work, a reason to wake up in the morning, something they contribute.

[PeterPan]

1 hour ago, Carrie12345 said:

And I don’t understand buying diamonds. It seems like a crazy amount of money to support a dirty industry.

So what did you do for your wedding ring? I had seen a documentary on the history of the diamond industry, so when I got engaged I suggested we *not* do a diamond as the main rock. I'm not sure it makes a difference (to the world, to the economy, to the people in Africa, etc.), but all these years later I'm still glad about our choice.

[Katy]

2 minutes ago, Carrie12345 said:

That’s actually what I meant - billionaires CAN give TONS of money. He’s up to more than 50% at this point.  Bezos? Like, 1%. And he won’t even take good care of his employees.  I will never be able to understand that kind of behavior.

I don’t disagree that Bezos is a jerk, but most of his money is in the market too. It’s not like he’s sitting around counting gold like Scrooge McDuck. Until he sells shares, his money is only theoretical. 

[Not_a_Number]

3 hours ago, MissLemon said:

My DH is a reverse snob when it comes to college education. He speaks very negatively of people with college degrees.  They are "out of touch" and "spoiled", and has a lot of unfavorable opinions about people who went to college right out of high school. Lots of comments that having a degree in XYZ doesn't mean you actually know how to do anything.  It blows my mind because it's so reminiscent of how my FIL would trash-talk DHs career interests as a kid. DH has done well for himself with a GED, but he won't acknowledge that he could have had an easier path to walk if he'd had a 2 or 4 year degree. He says "Well, if they won't even consider me because I don't have a degree, despite having X years of experience, then I wouldn't want to work for them anyway!"  

It makes for some challenging conversations when I discuss future education goals for our son. 😕 

It sounds like a form of defensiveness, and I guess it would be for a lot of people. 

[marbel]

People like to feel good about themselves and their own lives (the choices they've made and the circumstances they've been given) and some people apparently have to do that by knocking down others. I think this has been true always, but probably more so now as people become more divided in general.  I don't know of course, but I think the college vs trades thing has become more pronounced lately because of news about college debt and possible bailouts. People generally don't like to hear about debt being forgiven, unless it's their own. 

I think it's ugly no matter who is trashing whom.  (And now I'm worried that I used 'whom' incorrectly and someone is giving me the snort of derision for it.)

 

Edited December 30, 2020 by marbel

[marbel]

DP, ugh, and I'd been doing so well hitting 'edit" instead of "quote."

[Carrie12345]

47 minutes ago, PeterPan said:

So what did you do for your wedding ring? I had seen a documentary on the history of the diamond industry, so when I got engaged I suggested we *not* do a diamond as the main rock. I'm not sure it makes a difference (to the world, to the economy, to the people in Africa, etc.), but all these years later I'm still glad about our choice.

I have a gold and white gold band, no engagement ring. Frankly, we were only 22-23ish and broke when we decided to get married and I didn’t want to go into debt for jewelry. I’m glad for that for multiple reasons now, lol.  And I don’t even wear my band anymore because I frequently pinch a nerve in my neck that travels down to my fingers.

I found out years later that MIL blocked the handing down of a diamond ring, and it annoys me on principle. Heirlooms that have already done their thing don’t bother me much. But, again, it’s something I wouldn’t be wearing today for other reasons.

[DawnM]

2 hours ago, PeterPan said:

Oh there's definitely that I'm enlightened, I've attained, when you're the first to do something or think you've really hit a pinnacle. I had someone describe it to me as the "newly educated" haha. But usually they mature and grow out of it. If they're not, that's more kind of rigid thinking and on them. But it definitely happens, yes. I'd just hope to see some maturing and coming to the other side. 

It's like my 21 yo. She's highly enlightened now because she's has some college, so she's ready at all times to criticize anything about my parenting, lol. She hasn't grown out of it. And if you like the Bible, it even warns you of that saying knowledge puffs up. It can happen with adults and grad school too. So it's not a shock, but we'd definitely like to see them mature/change/grow. 

 

And after I wrote the response this morning, he saw an ad for Little Women on PBS and asked me if that had been a book......🥴......so, there ya have it!

Edited December 30, 2020 by DawnM

[Mrs Tiggywinkle]

5 hours ago, Margaret in CO said:

We have relatives that do this--always running down anyone who has had a college education and who have done something with their lives. I see it on  FB pages where you put your education--that they'll list "school of hard knocks" or some such. I've watched a hs blogger that does this--she's built a blog around this. She's constantly tearing down any student with aspirations higher than a GED level education, instead of saying, "Let's all encourage our kids to go as far as they can." It's particularly sad when there is a kid who is interested in higher ed, but because the person is so hung up on being proud of being blue collar, the kid is short-changed. As a Scout leader, I've seen it over and over. Whilst we don't want to discourage kids who are interested in trades, I think we are equally culpable in discouraging kids in careers that require more education. It's always sad when I visit with a Scout and his parents and they make statements like, "Oh, he'll catch up in math when he decides to." Yeah, he might. But why pay college tuition for things he should have learned in high school that you dismissed as not needed?

It seems awfully common in hs circles, "She just needs to become a good wife and mother! We don't want OUR daughter to get puffed up! It's not for the likes of US!" I had a woman, many years ago pull this on me at a CHEC convention. We were standing companionably, looking at curriculum, and the woman commented, "Well, MY daughter doesn't need to learn any higher math. She's going to be a wife and mother!" I'm afraid I rounded on her, pointing out that sometimes men DIE! My dd had just lost her fiancé, the fellow who was headed to med school in a month. Yeah, sometimes women don't get married. Sometimes their husbands leave or die or become disabled. Sometimes uneducated hs moms give birth to children who clearly are cut out for engineering school!

I think it can stem from deep-rooted insecurities. 

My aunt and uncle had this similar idea about my female cousin. She doesn’t need to do this or study too hard on that; she just needs to be prepared to be a wife and mother.

Fast forwards 25 years and she’s now divorced, two of her kids prefer to live with their dad(they’re teenage boys and dad is way cooler) and so most of the week she’s nobody’s wife or mother. She’s trying to make ends meet driving school bus and has gone back for her associate’s Degree in accounting.

My aunt has a degree and my uncle has advanced, specialized technical trainings.  I think their attitude was more religious(fundamentalist) than snobbery, though. My aunt was definitely proud of my advanced degrees.

[MEmama]

1 hour ago, PeterPan said:

So what did you do for your wedding ring? I had seen a documentary on the history of the diamond industry, so when I got engaged I suggested we *not* do a diamond as the main rock. I'm not sure it makes a difference (to the world, to the economy, to the people in Africa, etc.), but all these years later I'm still glad about our choice.

Also, and this is a total aside from the larger conversation, diamonds can now be grown in labs. They are chemically equivalent to mined diamonds but without all the obvious humanitarian and environmental problems.

My 25th anniversary band is made of diamonds lab grown in Minnesota. 

[historically accurate]

1 hour ago, MEmama said:

Also, and this is a total aside from the larger conversation, diamonds can now be grown in labs. They are chemically equivalent to mined diamonds but without all the obvious humanitarian and environmental problems.

My 25th anniversary band is made of diamonds lab grown in Minnesota. 

For my wedding, we used a ring from my great-grandmother. It was a glass stone (looked like a ruby). For my replacement ring (because I did not want to resize the heirloom, I ordered a lab-created diamond. I don't wear either now though. 

[iamonlyone]

3 hours ago, marbel said:

 

I think it's ugly no matter who is trashing whom.  (And now I'm worried that I used 'whom' incorrectly and someone is giving me the snort of derision for it.)

 

This made me laugh, as I would stress about that too when posting. (And your usage is correct.) 😉

[elegantlion]

When I told a neighbor (small rural working class town), ds was graduating from high school (homeschooled) a year early, he said that was good, that he should get out there in the workforce. I remember stammering back that no, he was going to college. 

I thought it odd because at the time his wife was pursuing a bachelor's degree and they had little children. 

 

[DawnM]

8 minutes ago, Thatboyofmine said:

I have it against the very wealthy.  I've tried to do better, but I can feel my nose physically turn up when I see a house that is ginormous or read about multimillionaires and billionaires.    

I've never heard of anyone around me having it regarding college educations.  That's kind of a foreign concept to me.   

 

 

 

So, how big is ginormous to you?   I ask because my opinions on that have changed over the years.   

[rebcoola]

My DH's extended family are definitely reverse snobs against his mom, us and his brother.  We are not fancy just solidly middle class no fancy degrees.  They all live in small town and  I think they feel judged or maybe are just mad that DH's mom left the town.

[popmom]

8 hours ago, Happy2BaMom said:

I think reverse snobbery it's worse now than ever. There is real disdain for anyone perceived to be an "elite" in education, with an assumption that someone's uneducated opinion is as valid as someone else's decades of advanced study. While there are some valid reasons for that sentiment coming to be (a lot to do with the alignment of of higher education with corporate interests, IMHO, with the subsequent steamrolling over community concerns and alternative pathways), it's also true that disdain for education - whether in an individual or a country - is not a good thing in a complex modern world.

I also think of my grandparents...neither formally educated beyond high school, but two of the most well-read and well-educated people I've ever known. They were not afraid to seek out information and differing opinions.....they were intellectually hungry. And I guess that's what has also really changed in the last few decades. Those who are not, by society's standards, "well-educated", now seem to disdain learning in almost any form. I've seen that in the hs world as well. But when I started hsing 15 years ago there seemed to be a real shared passion among hsers to provide a much better education for their children than public school, regardless of the chosen hsing method. Now it largely seems to be a defensive posture, "well, lots of kids are behind in public school, too" or some other pointing out how education isn't necessary.

Many other countries, however, are not proudly proclaiming their right to be ignorant. Instead, they are pursuing us - and higher education - with steely-eyed determination.

 

7 hours ago, Pawz4me said:

QFT

I was going to simply post that the trend of anti-intellectualism (or anti-"elites") in the US is absolutely a type of reverse snobbery. You explained it in good detail.

I would fall into the anti elitist camp. But elite is not the same thing as elitist. I know many, many people who are much more highly educated than I am, and are not at all elitist. I would say they are truly among "the elite" in their fields. Also one can be anti- elitist without being anti intellectual.

But if that's reverse snobbery, I'm guilty.

Edited December 30, 2020 by popmom

[popmom]

4 hours ago, marbel said:

DP, ugh, and I'd been doing so well hitting 'edit" instead of "quote."

I thought I was the only one!

[TravelingChris]

8 hours ago, MissLemon said:

My DH is a reverse snob when it comes to college education. He speaks very negatively of people with college degrees.  They are "out of touch" and "spoiled", and has a lot of unfavorable opinions about people who went to college right out of high school. Lots of comments that having a degree in XYZ doesn't mean you actually know how to do anything.  It blows my mind because it's so reminiscent of how my FIL would trash-talk DHs career interests as a kid. DH has done well for himself with a GED, but he won't acknowledge that he could have had an easier path to walk if he'd had a 2 or 4 year degree. He says "Well, if they won't even consider me because I don't have a degree, despite having X years of experience, then I wouldn't want to work for them anyway!"  

 

Both dh and I are highly educated but do think that the degrees are not all they seem.  My FIL didn't finish high school and instead enlisted in the Navy and went to war (WWII).  He drove a milk truck and a school bus.  He was very intelligent and quite well self-educated.  My son never finished his BA- super intelligent and much more educated than many of the people I have met with doctoral degrees.  

As to not considering people without degrees, my state, at least, is making a push for experiences and knowledge over degrees.  Because some people with degrees know nothing and some without know a lot.

 

I hate snobbery and reverse snobbery.  It is weird too- because of the way we spend our money and the way we dress and the cars we drive (a 2001 Toyota Tundra and a 2006 Subaru Outback)-some people make weird assumptions.  Like some, who know our educational levels, think we look down on those with less.  Some see my normal, but not expensive clothing- I tend to buy things from Belk, Lands End, LLBean, plus one local boutique I am trying to support and buying one partial outfit a season (I was just so very happy she had a few nice things I could, in fact, wear, since every other boutique I had been in in a long time had nothing and I wasn\t visiting for me then but with daughters who half the time, couldn't find anything in their much smaller but obviously not small enough sizes then like 8 or 10), and decide I am not rich enough or with it enough or whatever.  Or people who see my Outback and decide I am a snowflake lefty or something but DH's truck and he is a hardcore rightist who thinks mask orders are socialist plots.  

Dh doesn't understand though why I am not going to go back to my old Sunday school class whenever regular church and regular church activities resume.  I am done with sly remarks and looks that dh seems to miss that slur me and him and also I actually am more interested in being in a class with people of various ideas  but do want some others in my class who hold more traditional ideas like dh and I.

[PeterPan]

2 hours ago, Thatboyofmine said:

I have it against the very wealthy.  I've tried to do better, but I can feel my nose physically turn up when I see a house that is ginormous or read about multimillionaires and billionaires.    

I've never heard of anyone around me having it regarding college educations.  That's kind of a foreign concept to me.   

 

 

You struggle with guilt or jealousy? Guilt I understand. If you travel you quickly realize how much better almost anyone in our country has it than much of the rest of the world. 
 

Jealousy I don’t really understand. I’ve been rich and poor and it’s always about contentment. Money doesn’t make you happy nor does it buy love. Now it buys DOGS which is sorta like buying love, but even many who struggle have a dog. 

Edited December 30, 2020 by PeterPan

[PeterPan]

1 hour ago, Thatboyofmine said:

When I see extravagant spending, ornate fixtures throughout a house, that type of thing... yes, it bothers me.

What do you want them to do instead? 
 

I spent most of my growing up in a cold trailer in Virginia, surrounded by peanut fields and dumpster diving. The question is not where you are but how you change it, how it changes.
 

When you are in hard circumstances it’s very easy to feel stuck.  I’ve seen this many places. 

Edited December 30, 2020 by PeterPan

[OH_Homeschooler]

Yeah, I'd say so. I live in a crappy neighborhood in a modest house that I own. My neighboring house was converted in two low-income housing apartments. A woman who lives there, she thinks it must be nice to have my money. 

Let me tell you-I'm a single mom of 4 kids who makes less than $50,000 a year with absolutely no involvement or child support from my ex (sudden and traumatic divorce). I'm certainly rolling in it. (I can afford the house I'm in because of location, location, location. And it was cheaper than renting.)

This woman, she has a criminal history. She has one adult daughter in another state, and they don't get along. She thinks she is the smartest person in the room when I've learned she is not. To put it nicely. (Side comment-is this a thing?: She has said to me on at least 5 occasions that she doesn't know why I bother mowing my lawn--it always rains after. Doesn't that just apply to washing your car? Isn't it good to mow before the rain, so you don't have to mow wet grass? I don't get it but she sounds so smug when she says it. I'm hoping to get a privacy fence. Perhaps instead of being a reverse snob, I'm just a snob).

What does it mean to have "my money?" We were affected by the derecho earlier in the year. We lost power for a day. In weighing my options I chose not to get ice for the food in my fridge and freezer. Part of the reasoning was that I read about a shortage of ice locally and even heard there was a fight over the last bag of ice at one location. I also knew that it wasn't much longer before power would be restored, so I just decided to take a chance. (And everything was fine. I did throw some things out of my fridge but my freezer was great). So based on me ignoring her loud, stupid comment that I needed to go get ice, she yelled "Must be nice to have your money!" 

About a week before this, she came begging for money to fix her car ($20). I lent her some because I felt bad for her. But then a few days after the storm, she pounded on my door, drunk I assume. She "demanded" to borrow $100 this time. Uh no, I really am not as loaded as you think I am, based only on the fact that I didn't run out and buy ice. And I have 4 kids to support so I'm not handing out $100 to any random neighbor that asks. 

We were getting along okay before the storm but after that I've done all I can to avoid her. I am not loaded by any means. We do okay and that's about it.

Edited December 30, 2020 by OH_Homeschooler

[TravelingChris]

7 hours ago, Pawz4me said:

QFT

I was going to simply post that the trend of anti-intellectualism (or anti-"elites") in the US is absolutely a type of reverse snobbery. You explained it in good detail.

Well I am not anti-intellectual but am, in some regards, anti-elites.  I guess it depends on what you mean as elites.  I am anti coastal NYC/Boston types and to a lesser degree some of the big cities on the other coast who A) think that reality in nameyourbigcity is your reality in the rest of US/Canada?wherever since I have actually seen and heard this in other countries too B) think that based on their lives, they can tell you what is right for you, your community, etc.   And you can see this on TV or read in books and media.  I got an interesting cookbook from dh for Christmas with a lot of recipes I want to try- but the author, who lives in a very large city in Canada, seems to think all the rest of us reading the book have equal access to ingredients like she does.  That is a bland example because it is just kind of a dumb suggestion- go to a certain type of Asian store-not the kind we have here nor the kind available in large proportions of cities and of course, no rural areas.  But elites who constantly harp on stuff like living your life themes that have zero to do with people not in the biggest cities, or people who offer political or other solutions that totally ignore the realities of most lives- like anyone whose life doesn't have a lot of leisure time or anyone who isn't in perfect health or anyone who isn't wealthy  or (I could name so many examples as to write a book)>  

White elites who deem to speak for blacks or Native Americans or who have you.  Deciding that a so-called activist of whatever group actually speaks for all that group,.  Elites who think that any group of people is all the same and thinks all the same be it disabled, blacks, rural, whoever.  

 

There is an excellent book that discussed the divide and had a quiz in the back to see how elitist you were.  Coming Apart by Charles Murray.  And the quiz is available on PBS at https://www.pbs.org/newshour/economy/do-you-live-in-a-bubble-a-quiz-2

 

[TravelingChris]

8 hours ago, Quill said:

I saw this sentiment early in the pandemic, with memes about how, “funny how all the people running the country now don’t have college degrees”. Umm, what? I mean, don’t get me wrong, I had much sympathy for the grocery clerks and janitors who continued to go to work. But, as I said back then, and we see it vividly now, when we get this virus put behind us, it will be because smart, highly-educated doctors and scientists and engineers have created vaccines and treatments, not to mention refrigerator system and distribution strategies, to beat the virus down. Not to mention the health care workers who all have degrees. 

Not to ,mention that there are people who do work in grocery stores that do have degrees and not necessarily front end either.  

[Katy]

I've definitely experienced it. It's really bewildering when the person who's aiming it at you is the mother of the child you are fostering, but the words come through the tween daughter instead of directly from the mother herself.

After every single visit there was something new to rant about, from why you should never eat leftovers (but always eat McDonalds), to why carpet is far preferable to hard wood floors and rugs, to why it is terrible that I bought her a North Face coat. It was the warmest thing in stock in the kid's size on the day she needed a coat, but clearly I am the one that has bad judgment.  Sigh.

[TravelingChris]

8 hours ago, Carrie12345 said:

I have some elements of reverse snobbery (by some definitions. I didn’t know there were so many, lol.)

As an example, people who hoard billions of dollars. I mean, I could never.  One would be more than enough, tyvm. 😉. If I were to create more than that, I’d want it to benefit others in order to be worthy of the first one. (And I’m exaggerating. I don’t need a whole billion. 😄 )

College degrees... I have much respect for them and the work that goes into them. But I don’t think a Harvard grad is necessarily a better person than a high school graduate and I’m not going to pretend that they are unless I actually do find out that they’re amazing.

And I don’t understand buying diamonds. It seems like a crazy amount of money to support a dirty industry.

It’s not specific wealth, power, or intellect that I’m judgy about, but some of the actions that are often associated with those things. 

As to the bolded, I think all good people would never think that a college degree from a specific place or even any place makes anyone a better person-  after all there are murderers who have college degrees.  And as one who has advanced degree and husband with a PhD, we do not judge people by degrees or not as people.  And no, specifically about diamonds, I buy cubic zirconia because it is prettier and cheaper.  I also buy lab created other gems because cheaper and why not??

 

as to the second point I bolded, what actions are you judgy about?  Like what type other than having billions and buying diamonds (and it seems like a great majority of married couples have at least one diamond engagement ring (( I got my engagement ring on behalf of my 35th anniversary and it is a Black Hills Gold cubic zirconia ring)) ), strikes you as something to be judgy about or that you are actually judgy about?