Talk me through the differentiation of my late-adolescent daughter

[Acadie]

Dd18 homeschooled through 7th grade and never went through a serious phase of teenage rebellion through the first few years of high school. Things shifted somewhere in her junior year, and now she's home for the spring after one semester away at college and I feel like she's in the throes of an intense process of differentiation from us as parents, but especially me. 

I know this is a normal and healthy process and that it won't be exactly like this forever, but it's really tough. I also sense that how dh and I handle it matters a lot to her development and our adult relationships going forward. The pandemic for sure isn't helping, not just because she'll be home for 9 months when she'd rather go back to college, but because we need to talk about social gatherings and her desire to road trip to see friends in more detailed ways than if this weren't a pandemic.

Here's what I've learned so far:

• She doesn't want to hear anything about her childhood or our perceptions of who she is now. Instead we need to listen to how she sees herself and how she's changing.
• Dh needs to be present, engaged and modeling respect and appreciation of me, not disengage and leave the support, boundary setting and conflict all to me.
• Our parenting style has historically been authoritative (not permissive and not authoritarian) so the idea of having no curfew and no house rules isn't authentic for us. Finding the balance between acknowledgment and respect for where she is now and meeting our own needs for sleep, communication between family members about when we'll be home, etc, is a work in progress.
• While self-absorption is a normal part of early adulthood (I remember it well!), I also think that young people need feedback to learn greater consideration of others and to differentiate what they're responsible for, what they need to hold others accountable for, and what's beyond anyone's control. In other words, blaming parents and other adults won't make for an effective lifelong coping strategy, and we would be remiss to let it all go. 
• It's a pandemic and I think most late teens and 20s are really struggling right now, because the restrictions stand in exact opposition to their developmental needs to strike out and explore the world and who they are. So everything I say and do is in the context of knowing what an extraordinarily hard time this is for people her age. She set up an appointment with a therapist starting in January and I'm glad she'll have someone to talk to.

Any BTDT insights, advice, books or articles I could read to help *me* through the process of young adult differentiation? I've been especially amazed by the gendered aspect of it. Although she's differentiating from both of us, there's definitely an intense focus on me. And although in all my relationships I am interested in getting feedback and holding myself accountable, some of it seems unfair and inaccurate. Example: when I picked her up from college, we hadn't even gotten of town before she said she feels like I don't support her interests in hiking and biking. I was totally blown away, because I've always placed a huge priority on supporting her discovery and pursuit of individual interests, with outdoor adventures at the top of the list.

As we talked more, it became clear that because I'd said no to a couple solo hikes in areas I didn't think were safe when she was in high school, she took that to mean that I don't support her interests. Meanwhile the many weeklong trips she's done, the way we've outfitted her with outdoor gear at birthdays and Christmas, and the hundreds of hikes she's done with us, in peer groups and solo in safer areas don't count for beans...

So I want to be open to listening and teasing out the actual issue while not giving a pass to wholesale misrepresentation and misunderstanding of who I am and what I've tried to do as a parent. There's a part of me that wants to duck out for the next few years and come back when she's worked this stuff out, except I know that our interactions and relationship are among the essential sites for her to do this. But it's exhausting!

 

[fairfarmhand]

I’ll come back to this when my internet is back on. Just wanted to let you know i saw it and I have some thoughts.

[Hilltopmom]

We are struggling with this too. I don’t have the answers and dh and I are on different places about how we are handling it. 
Covid life plus 18 year old daughters is a rough combo.

[Katy]

I don't have a more comprehensive thought than a hug.  It's tough.

With regards to curfew, I think it's completely fine to require one (assuming it doesn't interfere with working a night shift), because coming home before whatever time you go to bed will interfere with your sleep.  My mom handled this by saying "be home before 10 or don't come home until 6." And if we weren't there we were expected to text and say where we were.  She did make an exception for me when I worked a night shift at a newspaper and wouldn't get off until 10:30 on a normal night or 1 am on a night when where was some sort of sports playoff. You might make it more about consideration for your sleep than your authority.  So far this hasn't been an issue here, but we're on high risk lockdown, so it's different.

With regards to completely ridiculous statements, I've found it best (with any sort of crazy person, not just a teenager) to start with a slow triple blink.  Blink, blink, blink, as if you need a moment to comprehend what they are talking about.  Then address the feeling first.  "Honey, I'm so sorry you didn't feel supported in you hiking passion. I always want to do whatever I can to make sure you feel supported."  Then address it from your perspective.  "As I recall, two nights before you asked to do a solo in that area I heard a news story of a woman being sexually assaulted not far from there and I didn't feel it was safe for you in that location at that time.  I have been very supportive of (this and this and this) trip, and I've helped you shop for (this and this and this).  How would you suggest I handle a request from a child who wants to do something unsafe?  She'll argue it was safe.  Slow blink again.  "In an ideal world you may be right, but this isn't an ideal world.  My job as your mother was to get you safely to adulthood, ready and able to be an adult.  I stand by my decision to not let a child do something unsafe."

She'll still disagree with you, and that's fine, but rudeness, condescension, and disrespect aren't tolerated in our home.  And other than that try to shrug it off.  This too will pass.  Maybe not until she's 25 or has kids of her own, but it will pass eventually.

[PeterPan]

1 hour ago, Acadie said:

she said she feels like I don't support her interests

Isn't the point that it's becoming HER job to support HER interests by working to pay for them? 

Maybe she's putting the blame in the wrong place. Maybe you're a soft touch and that's why she's putting it on you? I know my dd thinks of me as a soft touch. We transitioned to you want it, get a job. And I'm more firm with my ds about this. I could afford to give him the stuff he asks for, but I tell him to work little odd jobs and pay for it. 

1 hour ago, Acadie said:

She set up an appointment with a therapist starting in January and I'm glad she'll have someone to talk to.

This can be a catch-22. Sometimes their advice is stupid or contrary to what you want in your home. We realized even that was a line of you want it, you pay for it. It is not our job as parents to perpetually give our kids things. The real problem is it sucks to transition from nice cozy life to working a job, and there's little substitute for actually doing it.

Whatever, maybe it's a rant.  

Edited December 27, 2020 by PeterPan

[MEmama]

Mine is 17 and I can relate to much of this.

Listening, and offering virtual ((hugs)).

[Tanaqui]

Quote

 

Example: when I picked her up from college, we hadn't even gotten of town before she said she feels like I don't support her interests in hiking and biking. I was totally blown away, because I've always placed a huge priority on supporting her discovery and pursuit of individual interests, with outdoor adventures at the top of the list.

As we talked more, it became clear that because I'd said no to a couple solo hikes in areas I didn't think were safe when she was in high school, she took that to mean that I don't support her interests. Meanwhile the many weeklong trips she's done, the way we've outfitted her with outdoor gear at birthdays and Christmas, and the hundreds of hikes she's done with us, in peer groups and solo in safer areas don't count for beans...

So I want to be open to listening and teasing out the actual issue while not giving a pass to wholesale misrepresentation and misunderstanding of who I am and what I've tried to do as a parent.

 

 

If you enter these conversations intending to defend your point of view, you're not going to gain much.

She feels one way. You're not going to be able to correct the narrative with facts. Even if you're sure the facts support you (perhaps especially if that's the case!) you won't be able to do it. That's like saying your feelings are more important than hers.

It's the normal thing to want to defend yourself when people say they're hurt by your actions. We all do it. But it's not helpful. Put yourself in her shoes here - can you imagine going to your mother and saying "I was hurt when you XYZ because it seemed like you didn't support me"? What sort of response do you want? Do you want your mother to jump in to defend her actions, or do you want her to apologize? Do you really think, if you were in your daughter's shoes, that a response of "Of course I supported you! How can you say that? I guess all that other stuff I did to support you doesn't count for beans!" would make you feel better? Or convince you that you're wrong and your mom was totes supportive your whole life?

If you're thinking about how to best defend yourself, how to best make sure she's not "misrepresenting" you, then you're not listening.

How about a response like this? "I'm sorry I made you feel like I didn't support you. I didn't realize at the time that those trips were so important to you. I wish I'd understood that then, and I'm glad you told me now."

[Liz CA]

I have not read anything that is surprising. Girls often rebel against their mothers - or rather call a few things "mom" did or stands for into question. Also, I would not call it curfew but would rather appeal to her as an adult now and the need to respect being quiet when entering the house at an hour when others may be asleep.

At this age, IMHO, we become more of a cheerleader and encourager than do active parenting. Respecting their emerging adulthood even if their views and actions don't line up with our principles is difficult for us but necessary for them, I think.

You mentioned "blame shifting" in particular and I agree that I would not allow this without setting boundaries. Establishing healthy boundaries with our adult sons / daughters should be the same as having boundaries with anyone else outside of family.

Edited December 27, 2020 by Liz CA

[Melissa Louise]

I have two young adult children. It's definitely easier when we don't live together, but as you say, it's 2020. 

My sense is that it's ok to have mild and reasonably handled conflict with them aka boundaries of your own you don't allow to become jelly just because they don't serve the young adult narrative. 

For example, with the hiking, it's ok to say ' You feel your interests weren't supported. From my perspective, we did support your interests in tangible ways, but it's ok for us to see things  differently.' and then leave it there. Pass the dip. 

Young adults need to differentiate, and we can be empathetic, but we don't need to rewrite reality to do it. And we don't need to engage defensively or extensively in their process.

You can model what it is to be a peacefully differentiated adult by focusing on your own ground. 

Re practical details like who comes home when, there has to be some give and take when living with other adults. Imposing curfew on an adult is infantilizing. Sitting down to discuss ways to make it work for all of you is likely to be more productive. 

On these type of issues, I often have to remind myself 'they are my children, but they are no longer children'. 

Good luck! 

 

[HS Mom in NC]

5 hours ago, Acadie said:

Dd18 homeschooled through 7th grade and never went through a serious phase of teenage rebellion through the first few years of high school. Things shifted somewhere in her junior year, and now she's home for the spring after one semester away at college and I feel like she's in the throes of an intense process of differentiation from us as parents, but especially me. 

I know this is a normal and healthy process and that it won't be exactly like this forever, but it's really tough. I also sense that how dh and I handle it matters a lot to her development and our adult relationships going forward. The pandemic for sure isn't helping, not just because she'll be home for 9 months when she'd rather go back to college, but because we need to talk about social gatherings and her desire to road trip to see friends in more detailed ways than if this weren't a pandemic.

Here's what I've learned so far:

• She doesn't want to hear anything about her childhood or our perceptions of who she is now. Instead we need to listen to how she sees herself and how she's changing.
• Dh needs to be present, engaged and modeling respect and appreciation of me, not disengage and leave the support, boundary setting and conflict all to me.
• Our parenting style has historically been authoritative (not permissive and not authoritarian) so the idea of having no curfew and no house rules isn't authentic for us. Finding the balance between acknowledgment and respect for where she is now and meeting our own needs for sleep, communication between family members about when we'll be home, etc, is a work in progress.
• While self-absorption is a normal part of early adulthood (I remember it well!), I also think that young people need feedback to learn greater consideration of others and to differentiate what they're responsible for, what they need to hold others accountable for, and what's beyond anyone's control. In other words, blaming parents and other adults won't make for an effective lifelong coping strategy, and we would be remiss to let it all go. 
• It's a pandemic and I think most late teens and 20s are really struggling right now, because the restrictions stand in exact opposition to their developmental needs to strike out and explore the world and who they are. So everything I say and do is in the context of knowing what an extraordinarily hard time this is for people her age. She set up an appointment with a therapist starting in January and I'm glad she'll have someone to talk to.

Any BTDT insights, advice, books or articles I could read to help *me* through the process of young adult differentiation? I've been especially amazed by the gendered aspect of it. Although she's differentiating from both of us, there's definitely an intense focus on me. And although in all my relationships I am interested in getting feedback and holding myself accountable, some of it seems unfair and inaccurate. Example: when I picked her up from college, we hadn't even gotten of town before she said she feels like I don't support her interests in hiking and biking. I was totally blown away, because I've always placed a huge priority on supporting her discovery and pursuit of individual interests, with outdoor adventures at the top of the list.

As we talked more, it became clear that because I'd said no to a couple solo hikes in areas I didn't think were safe when she was in high school, she took that to mean that I don't support her interests. Meanwhile the many weeklong trips she's done, the way we've outfitted her with outdoor gear at birthdays and Christmas, and the hundreds of hikes she's done with us, in peer groups and solo in safer areas don't count for beans...

So I want to be open to listening and teasing out the actual issue while not giving a pass to wholesale misrepresentation and misunderstanding of who I am and what I've tried to do as a parent. There's a part of me that wants to duck out for the next few years and come back when she's worked this stuff out, except I know that our interactions and relationship are among the essential sites for her to do this. But it's exhausting!

 

Mine are 25, 24, and 15. The older two are launched and married. ( I don't see signatures, so I don't know if anyone can see mine.)

I don't think it's at all appropriate for a legal adult to have a curfew, even one living at home. At 18 they're basically my roommates, not children I'm responsible for. 18 year olds are old enough to storm beaches in epic battles-plenty of our grandparents had stories about that.  I do think they're responsible for not waking people up if they come home late-that would be expected of a roommate. Mine had their own house keys and came and went as they chose without keeping me posted.

I told mine the default assumption would be that they wouldn't be home for meals, so if they were planning on being home and joining us I needed to know about it by 4:30ish. We have a regular dinner time (6:00) so minor kids know to be home from the neighbor's houses by then and adult children living at home can plan accordingly if needed. I taught all of mine to cook for themselves and for the family, so there's no need for me to be in the loop on their meals.  They can eat leftovers, pick something up on the way home,  or cook something for themselves if they weren't home at mealtimes. They're adults.  Adults see to their own care and feeding.

Any trouble they got into or challenges they faced they dealt with on their own, at their own expense, just like a roommate would. We talked about that throughout the years as they grew up.  "Yep, you have to do it my way now because I'm responsible for you morally and legally,  but when you're 18 you finally get to handle it your way, enjoying all the perks and suffering all the consequences yourself, at your own expense. It's going to be great!" When my young adults complained about having problems I would say, "What are you going to do about that?"and then we sat quietly and listened to the answer. If we weren't asked for our take, we didn't offer it most of the time.

One made quite a few bad decisions.  We let her experience the consequences.  The turn around was predictable: she's more reasonable and appreciative because she's dealt with the consequences herself for several years.  We did intervene on a few occasions just enough to make sure consequences that couldn't be recovered from were minimized,  but we weren't afraid to let her be very uncomfortable and stressed.  If people don't listen when you tell them what consequences you fear will happen to them, it's time to step back and be quiet and let Life demonstrate exactly what you were talking about. I think waaay too many parents now a days haven't reconciled for themselves how incredibly valuable it was to learn things the hard way themselves as teens and young 20s, so there's a tendency to fear letting their children learn the hard way.  It's actually an important part of becoming an adult that our society discourages.  Americans don't tend to value their own discomfort and suffering when it was necessary and formative because they've been bombarded with the lie that quick, easy, convenient, and comfortable is always best in all situations.  It's a scam-don't fall for it.

I never engaged my young adults in conversations about who they are now or their perceptions of their childhoods.  That seems like a weird conversation to me. Maybe I just don't understand what you're talking about, but what you describe sounds like a psychotherapy session to me, not normal family talk. Is reading about psychology a particular interest of yours? Who's initiating these conversations, you or her?

My impression of your post (granted, it's not a lot to go on)  is that this dynamic is more about personalities than gender.  I can't decide if I think you're more of a people pleaser and disapproval is deeply disturbing to you or if you're someone who needs to be told you're right, or maybe both. I don't advise anyone seek out validation or approval from a late teen/early 20s for their parenting, even their own child who experienced it.   Expecting someone who has never been a parent or even fully independent to be circumspect and appreciate what another fully independent adult and parent has done over the course of 2 decades.  They can't be part of that conversation because they haven't experienced the necessary context and don't understand what the words used really mean. That conversation should be had with your parents or your parent peers because they've been there, done that.

As to your daughter suggesting you haven't been supportive of her interests, it sounds like she's prone to all or nothing thinking.  Sometimes that's a sign of a personality disorder that needs mental health treatment by an expert in that field, sometimes it's just a personality trait, and sometimes our culture/family cultures/subcultures encourage females to use dramatic language about a situation that actually demonstrates their feelings about the situation more than an accurate account of the situation itself.  Some personalities especially struggle to differentiate between the two.  And then there are people who have grown up in families/subcultures where being direct and precise about their thoughts and feelings about a situation and the situation itself are interpreted as rude, so it all jumbles up and spills out tangled up together. 

Anyway, if my kid had wanted to hike in a place I thought was unsafe, I would've said at the time, "I don't think it's safe there because _________________, but we could go to ________________, _________________, or __________________ for a hike instead.  Do you want to go to one of those?" (We're hikers.) If she said no, I'd ask, "What other places would you like to hike in?" and then I'd leave the ball in her court.  And if later she complained I didn't support her I'd say, "I recall lots of hiking together over the years." With no expectation that she'd agree with me about it. Then I'd move on to a different topic. If she doesn't have it in her to be reasonable, it's not on me to keep working at a resolution.  Don't argue with irrational people-you won't get anywhere.

And I agree that it's not entirely on you to support her interests, whatever she envisions "support" is made of.  Does she expect you to go hiking/biking with her every time? Not realistic. Buy her hiking/biking equipment? Not realistic. Does she expect you to ask her what she's been up to and listen to her stories of her last hiking/biking adventure?  Yes, that's realistic.  Does she expect you to look at some short videos and/or a few pics of her last adventure? That's realistic too. Does she expect you to tell her that her latest story/video/pics sound/look fun and enjoyable?  That's realistic.

[Hilltopmom]

One of our current issues is that she is 18 now but still in high school so I do feel I still need to set boundaries, curfews, etc until she graduates. She struggles in school academically due to some learning disabilities and the fact that she’s almost going to graduate with an actual diploma is amazing. Add in mental health issues and I need to be more on top of her than another 18 year old might need.

It doesn’t sound like the OP has those types of issues, but there are reasons why parents of 18 year olds are still supporting kids financially, medically, etc

 

Edited December 27, 2020 by Hilltopmom

[hippymamato3]

7 minutes ago, Hilltopmom said:

 Add in mental health issues and I need to be more on top of her than another 18 year old might need.

It doesn’t sound like the OP has those types of issues, but there are reasons why parents of 18 year olds are still supporting kids financially, medically, etc

 

This is our situation with newly-18 DS...and it's not really possible to simply act as roommates.

[HS Mom in NC]

46 minutes ago, Hilltopmom said:

 

It doesn’t sound like the OP has those types of issues, but there are reasons why parents of 18 year olds are still supporting kids financially, medically, etc

 

Still supporting kids financially and medically can happen while still treating them like roommates. When caught in the grey area between dependent child and fully independent adult, it's best to go as far as possible in the adult direction with someone 18+.  The state of the economy and cost of living in the modern industrialized world forces financial dependency on most young adults longer than societies where full independence is a possibility at 18. That's not the fault of the adult child, so we have to be careful not to infantalize them unnecessarily because of it.  Sure, there are some adult children with special needs or unusual challenges of various kinds that would make them exceptions to the rule, but that's not the context of this thread.

[Hilltopmom]

19 minutes ago, Homeschool Mom in AZ said:

Still supporting kids financially and medically can happen while still treating them like roommates. When caught in the grey area between dependent child and fully independent adult, it's best to go as far as possible in the adult direction with someone 18+.  The state of the economy and cost of living in the modern industrialized world forces financial dependency on most young adults longer than societies where full independence is a possibility at 18. That's not the fault of the adult child, so we have to be careful not to infantalize them unnecessarily because of it.  Sure, there are some adult children with special needs or unusual challenges of various kinds that would make them exceptions to the rule, but that's not the context of this thread.

Yes, I get that. My 18 year old is still in high school though which makes her not quite an “actual” adult as far as I’m concerned.

[MEmama]

27 minutes ago, Hilltopmom said:

Yes, I get that. My 18 year old is still in high school though which makes her not quite an “actual” adult as far as I’m concerned.

I feel the same. I have zero interest in treating him like a roommate. Age is not the only factor IMO. 

[TechWife]

As far as a curfew goes, I think it's inappropriate. What is appropriate is mutual respect. That means she lets you know when she will be home and sends a text if her plans change. She also takes her phone with her in case there is an emergency and you need to get in touch with her. When she comes in she is quiet and understands that it isn't the time to make a lot of noises in the kitchen, start laundry, etc., but instead it is time for her to wind down, take a shower, read, go to sleep, etc.. This allows you to sleep peacefully.

I would avoid offering feedback whenever possible unless it is specifically requested and then keep it limited to the topic at hand. Yes, people this age are self-absorbed. Typically they unload all of their perceptions on their friends. Sometimes they let their parents know everything that they think we have done wrong. That is also normal. I recommend that you have a pat answer that lets her know that your past parenting decisions are not up for discussion - something like "We love you and we made the best decision at that time." Now, one caveat to this, if she is deeply hurt by something, you need to listen. Perhaps there is something there that you aren't aware of took place - sometimes it's a sequence of events, sometimes it's an isolated incident. You will have to decide when to engage and that engagement should primarily consist of you listening, not talking. She will grow out of this phase and how you engage her will not affect the pace of that growth at all, but it can affect your relationship for a lifetime.

The fact that she is going to see a counselor is good. If she finds a good one, it can be of great help. The counseling should center on her, not on the family. So, if she brings up anything that she wants to discuss, try to disarm it in a lighthearted manner by saying something like  "Wait a minute, I didn't sign up for counseling." Also, never ask her what she discusses in her counseling sessions. That is a boundary you don't need to cross, ever. At some point you can begin to deflect discussions about past parenting decisions by saying something along the lines of "It might be helpful for you to process that with your counselor."

For book recommendations, Boundaries is hands down the best book you could read. It will help you differentiate yourself from her and help you recognize what you are responsible for and where that responsibility ends. I honestly think that it should be required reading for everyone. 

 

Edited December 28, 2020 by TechWife

[PeterPan]

4 hours ago, Hilltopmom said:

One of our current issues is that she is 18 now but still in high school so I do feel I still need to set boundaries, curfews, etc until she graduates. She struggles in school academically due to some learning disabilities and the fact that she’s almost going to graduate with an actual diploma is amazing. Add in mental health issues and I need to be more on top of her than another 18 year old might need.

It doesn’t sound like the OP has those types of issues, but there are reasons why parents of 18 year olds are still supporting kids financially, medically, etc

 

Btdt and you're going to find they still have a need to launch and be separate from you, even if they need more bloom time or aren't quite there on maturity to make wise decisions. Things aren't always synchronized on kids.

[RootAnn]

4 hours ago, Homeschool Mom in AZ said:

I never engaged my young adults in conversations about who they are now or their perceptions of their childhoods.  That seems like a weird conversation to me. Maybe I just don't understand what you're talking about, but what you describe sounds like a psychotherapy session to me, not normal family talk

Actually, something like this happens frequently with our college DD. She'll have been talking with friends about common experiences (or not) or reflecting on family activities for an assignment and want to share (opine on) her reflections/realizations. "We never went on a real family vacation--just traveled to visit relatives." Or, "You guys protected me too much." Or, "You never talk about [insert discussion topic]." "Boy, you never would have let me get away with that when I was X age."

Separately, we might point out that we aren't going to be nagging her to apply for internships because she's an adult & if she wants to spend the summer working fast food, that's on her. [Note: we do ask about the applications. It isn't appreciated for us to bring up the topic, but she does appreciate our assistance when working on her cover letters!] These are examples we'd have come up quite often that I feel fall under the OP's broad brush of situations. 

OP, I wish you luck. Tough time!!

[Sneezyone]

2 hours ago, TechWife said:

As far as a curfew goes, I think it's inappropriate. What is appropriate is mutual respect. That means she lets you know when she will be home and sends a text if her plans change. She also takes her phone with her in case there is an emergency and you need to get in touch with her. When she comes in she is quiet and understands that it isn't the time to make a lot of noises in the kitchen, start laundry, etc., but instead it is time for her to wind down, take a shower, read, go to sleep, etc.. This allows you to sleep peacefully.

I would avoid offering feedback whenever possible unless it is specifically requested and then keep it limited to the topic at hand. Yes, people this age are self-absorbed. Typically they unload all of their perceptions on their friends. Sometimes they let their parents know everything that they think we have done wrong. That is also normal. I recommend that you have a pat answer that lets her know that your past parenting decisions are not up for discussion - something like "We love you and we made the best decision at that time." Now, one caveat to this, if she is deeply hurt by something, you need to listen. Perhaps there is something there that you aren't aware of took place - sometimes it's a sequence of events, sometimes it's an isolated incident. You will have to decide when to engage and that engagement should primarily consist of you listening, not talking. She will grow out of this phase and how you engage her will not affect the pace of that growth at all, but it can affect your relationship for a lifetime.

The fact that she is going to see a counselor is good. If she finds a good one, it can be of great help. The counseling should center on her, not on the family. So, if she brings up anything that she wants to discuss, try to disarm it in a lighthearted manner by saying something like  "Wait a minute, I didn't sign up for counseling." Also, never ask her what she discusses in her counseling sessions. That is a boundary you don't need to cross, ever. At some point you can begin to deflect discussions about past parenting decisions by saying something along the lines of "It might be helpful for you to process that with your counselor."

For book recommendations, Boundaries is hands down the best book you could read. It will help you differentiate yourself from her and help you recognize what you are responsible for and where that responsibility ends. I honestly think that it should be required reading for everyone. 

 

Boundaries just arrived on my sisters porch today. It’s an excellent read and extremely helpful.

[Farrar]

Another vote that it's not appropriate for adults to have curfews. If there are logistical reasons that an adult needs to be home by a particular time, then those are specific logistical issues that need to be negotiated between the adults in a household. I don't personally find "but I'll worry and can't sleep even if I know where they are" to be a particularly good reason to limit others as that's a personal issue, but sometimes there are real reasons that late night arrivals don't work well for a household and those should be addressed.

Seconding what Tanaqui said. You can't argue with her feelings, even if the supports aren't very good. Everyone's memory is selective.

I find the love languages framing useful for some situations like this. It sounds like the thing she wanted and maybe still wants is time. It sounds like sometimes the thing you've given has been logistics and things. It doesn't mean either of you are right or wrong, just that you expressed your support differently. I know that the hiking was just an example, but I would guess there are some other mismatches like this - where what you gave didn't match what she wanted, which is not anyone's fault. A more mature person would realize this... but she's 18, so...

[HS Mom in NC]

18 minutes ago, RootAnn said:

Actually, something like this happens frequently with our college DD. She'll have been talking with friends about common experiences (or not) or reflecting on family activities for an assignment and want to share (opine on) her reflections/realizations. "We never went on a real family vacation--just traveled to visit relatives." Or, "You guys protected me too much." Or, "You never talk about [insert discussion topic]." "Boy, you never would have let me get away with that when I was X age."

 

That's a different kind of conversation than the OP described in terms of "She doesn't want to hear anything about her childhood or our perceptions of who she is now."

[HS Mom in NC]

3 hours ago, MEmama said:

I feel the same. I have zero interest in treating him like a roommate. Age is not the only factor IMO. 

The roommate issue isn't like a non-relative.  I'm talking about a roommate like an adult relative that needs some financial support until they get back on their feet and are able move out when they're fully self-supporting.  No one would give that person a curfew or insist they keep them up to date on their comings and goings. They would treat them like peer, not a subordinate. 

Now in situations where someone is helping an adult relative with a history of destructive behavior, like someone with a substance abuse issue that was out of control and caused others pain, it could be appropriate to set boundaries more applicable to minors, but those are extreme cases.  A legal adult teen/young 20 something with no history of that shouldn't need to be mothered like minor.  It will cause resentment and damage the relationship dynamic and I'm convinced, delay the maturation process.

But then I'm aware this discussion is happening in the homeschool subculture, where parents are accustomed to exerting more control over more aspects of their children's lives.  There's also subsets of homeschoolers who have believed commonly peddled lies at conventions and some churches about the amount of influence parents can and should have over their children as long as they live at home, regardless of age. I've seen the damage it does to families when the parents are controlling, especially with their young adults.  So I'm sure a few are bristling at comments. People can heed my warning or they can disagree. [Shrug]  I've met my moral obligation to make people aware in a discussion where it's relevant.

[Farrar]

Something else struck me... When you say that your parenting style has always been authoritative... it feels like you're extending that to her now, as in you're saying you're still in charge. Except, you're not. She's an adult and adults are ultimately in charge of themselves. It's not that you can't ask things of her or set boundaries or house rules. You're still in charge of your home, money, etc. and she's dependent on that in some ways, so that's something to negotiate. But it seems like that's a fundamental place to start in terms of changing your thinking. 

[GoodGrief3]

14 hours ago, Acadie said:

• It's a pandemic and I think most late teens and 20s are really struggling right now, because the restrictions stand in exact opposition to their developmental needs to strike out and explore the world and who they are. So everything I say and do is in the context of knowing what an extraordinarily hard time this is for people her age. She set up an appointment with a therapist starting in January and I'm glad she'll have someone to talk to.

 

 

This part quoted above is huge.

I have three daughters, 25/23/17. Differentiation is intense! You already have excellent insights.

My biggest piece of advice is to not take any of this personally. Back off as much as you can, unless it is an issue that will affect you and your husband financially or in some other meaningful way. In college, this part is a challenge because the system necessitates our ongoing involvement in paying for school and often in healthcare.

As far as a curfew, I would handle that as you would for any other adult staying in your home. I do think that if she is using your vehicle, you can set some limits on its use.

My oldest is liking me again these days. She's gotten to a place of financial independence and is living her own life. She is looking back and seeing the wisdom of things I did.

My 23 yo new college grad can hardly stand me right now. Like, the sound of my voice grates on her nerves, lol. But I get it. She had to abandon her beloved school early, found that the jobs she could have had dried up, and she ended up living with her sister and using our healthcare. She's got health issues I have to nag at her about a bit. It's all annoying.

The 17 yo is somewhere between the two situations above, but closer to the annoyed by me end of the spectrum. She likes us paying for things though, so she knows on what side her bread is buttered 🙂

There is some interesting mis-remembering going on around here. My oldest claimed for a while that I had only let her listen to...Amy Grant. Ummm, what? I can name maybe three Amy Grant songs and don't like Christian pop-rock at all. The youngest said I only ever read the Bible to them. She told someone that I never cooked a Christmas meal. OMG. So bizarre. My Christmas meal was an all day affair, lol.

[TechWife]

1 hour ago, Farrar said:

Something else struck me... When you say that your parenting style has always been authoritative... it feels like you're extending that to her now, as in you're saying you're still in charge. Except, you're not. She's an adult and adults are ultimately in charge of themselves. It's not that you can't ask things of her or set boundaries or house rules. You're still in charge of your home, money, etc. and she's dependent on that in some ways, so that's something to negotiate. But it seems like that's a fundamental place to start in terms of changing your thinking. 

This is a good point. It's important to realize that not only to children differentiate themselves from their parents, parents also have to differentiate themselves from their newly-adult children as they adjust to their new roles as parents of adults. That's an area where the Boundaries book can be very helpful.

Edited December 28, 2020 by TechWife

[GoodGrief3]

8 hours ago, Hilltopmom said:

One of our current issues is that she is 18 now but still in high school so I do feel I still need to set boundaries, curfews, etc until she graduates. She struggles in school academically due to some learning disabilities and the fact that she’s almost going to graduate with an actual diploma is amazing. Add in mental health issues and I need to be more on top of her than another 18 year old might need.

It doesn’t sound like the OP has those types of issues, but there are reasons why parents of 18 year olds are still supporting kids financially, medically, etc

 

I would agree, and especially with mental health issues in the mix. In some cases that necessitates a more watchful eye and advocacy.

[BeachGal]

With my kids, all adults now, I learned a technique called motivational interviewing which helped (helps) immensely. It was originally used to help alcoholics direct their ambivalence toward positive change while maintaining their autonomy. It can be used in many different situations, though. Part of it involves using reflective listening which helps an individual feel heard.

I’m off to bed, but if you search online, you should be able to find some good summaries.

Edited December 28, 2020 by BeachGal

[Blossom'sGirl]

I haven't read all the responses and have only sons at that age but wanted to respond to the curfew.  My oldest rents a room at college from some people who for years have been renting rooms to several college students each semester.  I was surprised to find that he has a curfew.  The owners are doing them a favor by supplying an affordable way to live near campus but in return the students are expected to honor the house rules.  The rules are in place because it is very disruptive to have people coming home at different hours all night especially when you have dogs.  It is also reasonable to expect those who live at home to honor similar rules. 

We currently do not have a curfew for our older sons, but I do ask for the courtesy of letting me know if they will be late.  (And we have a dog that goes off when they come home)  This is something that would be just as expected for me and my husband.

I do expect any young adult in our household to be doing one of two things..either working full time or going to school full time while getting themselves up in the morning.  That has helped our slow maturing son to get to bed earlier.  

[elegantlion]

I'll drop my experience in, it may or may not apply. The best thing my parents ever did was tell me I was adult and that while they were still my parents, they would parent me as an adult. It made a huge difference in our relationship. I had a much better relationship with my dad as an adult than I did as a child. 

As a young adult, I didn't want to be microscopically examined for every change I made - I was trying to figure out me. My mom still does that to an extent and I'm in my 50s. My mom's thing is my clothing, I wear dark colors a lot, so when I wear a bright color, she purposefully comments. It feels like my every move is being watched. I love and adore my mom, but the micromanaging of my identity has something she has done all my life. 

For my son, I opted to work on not doing that - the oh, you loved that when you were 7. Well, he's not 7 anymore. I want to know my adult son, I have precious memories of his childhood, but I don't need to relive them with him as he figures out who he is. 

I told him the same thing my parents told me, you're an adult, our relationship is changing. For a while, ds was my roommate - he is now my mom's roommate. 

[Hilltopmom]

This conversation is very helpful, everyone. I’m not the OP but thank you.

[Katy]

Plenty of dorms have curfews. So do some sorority and fraternity houses. 

I suspect my kids have a different understanding of privilege than others, but even in high cost of living areas kids age out of foster care and have to take care of themselves. Sometimes there are programs to help them, to pay for apartments or college scholarships but they all have rules in place.

It’s possible to both give your adult child the respect and autonomy they deserve as an adult AND still have rules for the privilege of living in your home. I don’t really consider anyone to be fully an adult until 25 though, which doesn’t mean they shouldn’t have close to full control over their own lives at closer to 16. 

[PeterPan]

3 hours ago, Katy said:

I don’t really consider anyone to be fully an adult until 25 though, which doesn’t mean they shouldn’t have close to full control over their own lives at closer to 16. 

Wanna expand on this? 

[kbutton]

On 12/27/2020 at 10:30 AM, Acadie said:

Example: when I picked her up from college, we hadn't even gotten of town before she said she feels like I don't support her interests in hiking and biking. I was totally blown away, because I've always placed a huge priority on supporting her discovery and pursuit of individual interests, with outdoor adventures at the top of the list.

As we talked more, it became clear that because I'd said no to a couple solo hikes in areas I didn't think were safe when she was in high school, she took that to mean that I don't support her interests. Meanwhile the many weeklong trips she's done, the way we've outfitted her with outdoor gear at birthdays and Christmas, and the hundreds of hikes she's done with us, in peer groups and solo in safer areas don't count for beans...

Did she say why she thinks the solo hikes are so important to her? Does she have new friends that tell her they did solo hikes, so now she feels at a social disadvantage? Is she feeling like she’s “behind” in her hobby experiences relative to peers?

I have boys and haven’t gotten to this stage yet, but I can remember my parents twisting things I’d said or not being aware of things they said that were contradictory, etc. I have amazing parents, but they can be inconsistent at the weirdest times and very touchy at the slightest hint that there is disharmony (personality feeds into this majorly). Sometimes they did a lot of “managing” my expectations up front and it was great; other times they managed things by giving a reason for their “no” that was really secondary or tertiary because they perceived (often wrongly) that the real reason would go over like a lead balloon. Fast forward a few years, and those memories got fuzzy to them, but I remembered ironclad resistance/expectations that the parents don’t remember setting. 🤦🏻

She might be unreasonable, but I think there could be a valid feeling behind it. You might be super straightforward and not be remembering anything wrong or interpreting her words wrong, but I thought I’d toss that out in the name of troubleshooting. It’s really painful to have a parent be adamant about something only to back off again years later, for instance, and swear their current attitude is the one they had all along. Or to have them twist words to be hurt when there is no blame intended. 

[Amy Gen]

I will weigh in. I have 3 adult kids. The first went away to college and although we still pay her can insurance and cell phone bill, she has acted like an adult and been treated like an adult since the moment she left. She solves her own problems. If anything, I have to tease things out of her to see if there are areas where we can still help. 
 

When she visits, she acts like an ideal houseguest. When I walk in the door from swim practice, she will be pulling out of the oven, homemade pizza with each person’s favorite topping and even cooked to the degree of goldenness that each family member prefers. She sleeps on my youngest’s top bunk and doesn’t complain about anything. 
 

My son started “staying with friends” when he turned 17. Some of his friends’ parents thought he was homeless. He would say, “Oh no! I have a big home and a really loving family!” He was just ready to be a grown up and have a little space. By the time he turned 18, he had his own apartment and was soon making enough money that he just bought new clothes when he didn’t want to do laundry. 
 

We lived across the country from each other and didn’t get to see him often but that was okay, because I knew he was doing what adult kids are supposed to do. He has come back to stay with us for a few months and I enjoy having him here. He engages with his younger siblings, always washes his own dishes and just lets me know where he is going and when he will be back so I won’t worry. Sometimes he runs errands with me even though he doesn’t need anything because it is fun to spend time with mom. 
 

From my point of view, we really didn’t have any tricky areas or growing pains when they were leaving the nest. 
 

But everything is different with the one I have in transition now. I have always considered her a little different from the rest of us. I used to think of her as Cousin Marilyn from The Munsters, so I take extra time to meet her needs, knowing they might not get met with what is fine for the rest of the family. But to her, her childhood was miserable. My parenting was abusive. She “remembers” things happening that all 6 of us are certain never happened. If I ask her to wash her own dishes, she complains to other people how nothing she ever does is good enough and I make her life miserable. 
 

I have been hoping that she just needs to do some growing up. I was thrilled when she went off to school with her best friend. Unfortunately that relationship blew up. The next year she roomed with someone “better” that living situation couldn’t last a semester. Dh told me he fears she has a personality disorder. I’m still hoping she is just slower maturing. But in any case, it is time for her to leave the nest. She has a degree, a car her dad bought her and no student loans. I really feel like my job is done, but she doesn’t seem to have the same motivation to grow up that my other kids do. 
 

All of that is to say that even kids within the same family are so different. What they need from us is so different. If I only had my 2 oldest, I’d feel like launching kids is easy, and I’m not sure what other people are doing wrong. 
 

So hugs to all of the parents trying to navigate this new relationship. 

[freesia]

6 minutes ago, kbutton said:

Did she say why she thinks the solo hikes are so important to her? Does she have new friends that tell her they did solo hikes, so now she feels at a social disadvantage? Is she feeling like she’s “behind” in her hobby experiences relative to peers?

I have boys and haven’t gotten to this stage yet, but I can remember my parents twisting things I’d said or not being aware of things they said that were contradictory, etc. I have amazing parents, but they can be inconsistent at the weirdest times and very touchy at the slightest hint that there is disharmony (personality feeds into this majorly). Sometimes they did a lot of “managing” my expectations up front and it was great; other times they managed things by giving a reason for their “no” that was really secondary or tertiary because they perceived (often wrongly) that the real reason would go over like a lead balloon. Fast forward a few years, and those memories got fuzzy to them, but I remembered ironclad resistance/expectations that the parents don’t remember setting. 🤦🏻

She might be unreasonable, but I think there could be a valid feeling behind it. You might be super straightforward and not be remembering anything wrong or interpreting her words wrong, but I thought I’d toss that out in the name of troubleshooting. It’s really painful to have a parent be adamant about something only to back off again years later, for instance, and swear their current attitude is the one they had all along. Or to have them twist words to be hurt when there is no blame intended. 

I agree with this.  I have some of those same experiences.  However, I have realized as a parent that sometimes the decisions we make are so complicated, and the child who is remembering those experiences see them through immature eyes. We had to make some decisions with regard to my dd when she was 12/13 that we would have made differently if she had been 16/17.  The problem is that she saw herself as 16 when she was 13 and was being told by older teens that she acted and "was" older. But she wasn't.  She was processing the events as a 12/13 year old.  However, I know she still doesn't trust us on a certain level because of her perception of herself being "older" than she was.  There is not a lot that I can do about that except to be honest with her if it comes up again sometime.  I know there were so many reasons for the decisions that we made that it would be easy for her to focus on one of those reasons being primary because she is still too young to understand why/how the other reasons were as important or more.  And, also, some of the reasons she wasn't even aware of at the time, so she wouldn't even know they existed and could easily think we were not remembering correctly.

[kbutton]

1 minute ago, freesia said:

I agree with this.  I have some of those same experiences.  However, I have realized as a parent that sometimes the decisions we make are so complicated, and the child who is remembering those experiences see them through immature eyes. We had to make some decisions with regard to my dd when she was 12/13 that we would have made differently if she had been 16/17.  The problem is that she saw herself as 16 when she was 13 and was being told by older teens that she acted and "was" older. But she wasn't.  She was processing the events as a 12/13 year old.  However, I know she still doesn't trust us on a certain level because of her perception of herself being "older" than she was.  There is not a lot that I can do about that except to be honest with her if it comes up again sometime.  I know there were so many reasons for the decisions that we made that it would be easy for her to focus on one of those reasons being primary because she is still too young to understand why/how the other reasons were as important or more.  And, also, some of the reasons she wasn't even aware of at the time, so she wouldn't even know they existed and could easily think we were not remembering correctly.

Yes, that can be another iteration. But I think parents sometimes don’t always remember what was in their mind vs. what came out of their mouths or that they emphasized.

I am nearly positive that my parents had a rule at one point to keep us from being alone with a specific person, but the rule had a different explanation. We were always given information about safety, etc and even knew things that put this person in perspective. But they had this rule anyway and violated the aspect of it once that was crucial to the rule being logical at all (they gave another safety reason for the rule). So I know that my parents will use additional facts to avoid things even when they’ve been straightforward about the situation in other ways. It seems to be how they roll. It’s weird, and then they lose track and get annoyed when others get the wrong impression. 

[fairfarmhand]

Here's how I've handled the "rewriting of history" or the emphasis on parenting faults vs. the positives that parents did.

When particular events are brught up, I simply listen. Then I say, "I am so sorry that I let you down in that instance. I had no idea at the time that particular event was so important to you. I know I haven't been a perfect parent, and if I could go back over again and change certain events, I know I would. But I can't. I just want you to know that the decisions that we made over the years have always been made out of a heart of love and protection for you. So even if things didn't turn out the way that you wanted, just know that we loved you and tried our best, even when sometimes that best disappointed you." 

I've said versions of the above multiple times to both of my adult children. 

 

[Amy Gen]

15 minutes ago, fairfarmhand said:

Here's how I've handled the "rewriting of history" or the emphasis on parenting faults vs. the positives that parents did.

When particular events are brught up, I simply listen. Then I say, "I am so sorry that I let you down in that instance. I had no idea at the time that particular event was so important to you. I know I haven't been a perfect parent, and if I could go back over again and change certain events, I know I would. But I can't. I just want you to know that the decisions that we made over the years have always been made out of a heart of love and protection for you. So even if things didn't turn out the way that you wanted, just know that we loved you and tried our best, even when sometimes that best disappointed you." 

I've said versions of the above multiple times to both of my adult children. 

 

I do this too. When my kid overreacted because I asked her repeatedly to clean up her dirty dishes, I absolutely apologized for ever making her feel like nothing she ever does is enough. I do feel guilty though because how is she ever going to learn not to be so self-absorbed if she isn’t given a reality check? 
 

I just have to remind myself that my job to raise her is over. 
 

I really hope things change though. I don’t know how to have an authentic relationship with someone too sensitive to ever be told how I feel or what I think. I avoid overly sensitive people like the plague. 
 

Maybe I’m the one who is going to end up changing and maturing from this relationship. I’m open to that possibility. 

[Melissa Louise]

Parents and children should apologise when they get things wrong. Parents need to model this capacity from the time their children are small, with children gradually developing the insight and character to do so themselves. 

But...an apology should be an internally directed behaviour, not an externally solicited one. Our children don't need us to respond to their every claim with an apology.

That's what I mean about looking at your own ground. Do I really need to apologise for requiring the dishes be done? Or is that reasonable? Does the request really reflect an ongoing pattern of never acknowledging the good in my child? 

Apologies are only worthwhile, imo, if they arise from a genuine examination of conscience. Sometimes we are wrong; sometimes our young adults are wrong. We apologise when we get it wrong, but we don't get it wrong in every instance 🙂

Neither mothers nor young adults are required to be emotional punching bags for others in service of their developmental tasks.

IMO.

In some ways, I think the answer to differentiation struggles in young adults is for their parents to focus on their own differentiation. To break out of the role of Mom (which is often also, in these tangled situations,  'scapegoat'.)

Model the task in your own life. 

 

[freesia]

16 minutes ago, Melissa Louise said:

In some ways, I think the answer to differentiation struggles in young adults is for their parents to focus on their own differentiation. To break out of the role of Mom (which is often also, in these tangled situations,  'scapegoat'.)

Model the task in your own life. 

 

I love this!  And I can completely see how it would be very healthy for the entire family.  It is so easy with my emerging young adults to take on responsibility emotionally for things I have no control over bc I am so used to managing everything when they were young.  I actually do much better when ds is out of the house because texts make it easier for me to step away and regroup and maintain emotional boundaries while being supportive. 

[Melissa Louise]

1 minute ago, freesia said:

I love this!  And I can completely see how it would be very healthy for the entire family.  It is so easy with my emerging young adults to take on responsibility emotionally for things I have no control over bc I am so used to managing everything when they were young.  I actually do much better when ds is out of the house because texts make it easier for me to step away and regroup and maintain emotional boundaries while being supportive. 

I do a LOT better when my kids don't live with me. One of them is living with me. Oof! 

Yes, it's a reorientation for sure. I find it very hard. None of these thoughts arise from being an accomplished parent of young adults.

[TechWife]

4 hours ago, Amy Gen said:

 

I really hope things change though. I don’t know how to have an authentic relationship with someone too sensitive to ever be told how I feel or what I think. I avoid overly sensitive people like the plague. 
 

Maybe I’m the one who is going to end up changing and maturing from this relationship. I’m open to that possibility. 

Typically, younger people aren't ready to hear how their parents feel or what they think - it's part of the self-centered phase of early adulthood. I having an authentic relationship happens best by building new memories with the adult children. That decreases the opportunity for you to have sensitive conversations until she is mature enough for them, and then the need for sensitive conversations will take on an entirely different meaning because the topics will be different than they are now. Also, this is something the Boundaries book can help with - how to determine who to have potentially sensitive conversations with, when to have them, where to have them, who not to have them with, deflecting them, etc.. I really can't recommend the book enough.

Some ideas on how to build memories:

Play together as a family - at a sport, video or board games

Enjoy a mutual hobby together - fitness (walk, run, golf, flag football, soccer, gym in normal times)

craft - (share supplies, share pinterest ideas with each other, plan gifts to make, redecorate something, talk about what you're doing)

reading - casually talk about what you are reading and recommend books to each other, ask what the other is reading, maybe go to a library book club together when things like that become safe again

Plan to watch the "big game" together (complete with snacks, if that's your thing)

Have family dinners that are pressure free

Take walks -  After the pandemic one idea I want to institute is a "destination" walk - meeting at a specific park or trail to walk together. Getting out of the neighborhood can be fun. A day trip to an arboretum to walk is another possibility.

 

 

Edited December 29, 2020 by TechWife

[Amy Gen]

2 minutes ago, TechWife said:

I think this happens best by building new memories with the adult children.

Some ideas on how to do this:

Play together as a family - at a sport, video or board games

Enjoy a mutual hobby together - fitness (walk, run, golf, flag football, soccer, gym in normal times)

craft - (share supplies, share pinterest ideas with each other, plan gifts to make, redecorate something, talk about what you're doing)

reading - casually talk about what you are reading and recommend books to each other, ask what the other is reading, maybe go to a library book club together when things like that become safe again

Plan to watch the "big game" together (complete with snacks, if that's your thing)

Have family dinners that are pressure free

Take walks -  After the pandemic one idea I want to institute is a "destination" walk - meeting at a specific park or trail to walk together. Getting out of the neighborhood can be fun. A day trip to an arboretum to walk is another possibility.

 

 

This is really good advice and what I have been trying to do for the past 9 months. Her last 2 quarters of college, I read the books with her and we discussed what she found interesting. We do always watch a show together at night when the other kids have gone to bed. I’m about to go lap swimming with her like we do 3 or more times a week. We have agreed to disagree on her childhood “memories”. 
 

This is all I know to do now. We don’t fight or have too much tension in our daily lives, but it is time for her to move on and let me focus on my younger kids now. I just hope that when she does move on, she is able to build good relationships with other people and not sabotage them by always blaming everyone except herself.  

[TechWife]

3 minutes ago, Amy Gen said:

This is really good advice and what I have been trying to do for the past 9 months. Her last 2 quarters of college, I read the books with her and we discussed what she found interesting. We do always watch a show together at night when the other kids have gone to bed. I’m about to go lap swimming with her like we do 3 or more times a week. We have agreed to disagree on her childhood “memories”. 
 

This is all I know to do now. We don’t fight or have too much tension in our daily lives, but it is time for her to move on and let me focus on my younger kids now. I just hope that when she does move on, she is able to build good relationships with other people and not sabotage them by always blaming everyone except herself.  

It really sounds like  you are on the right track with her. She will slowly learn about relationship - hopefully the counseling with help with that. I think each stage of life has it's parenting challenges. For me this stage is known as "the era of keeping my mouth shut."

[sassenach]

6 hours ago, Amy Gen said:

I will weigh in. I have 3 adult kids. The first went away to college and although we still pay her can insurance and cell phone bill, she has acted like an adult and been treated like an adult since the moment she left. She solves her own problems. If anything, I have to tease things out of her to see if there are areas where we can still help. 
 

When she visits, she acts like an ideal houseguest. When I walk in the door from swim practice, she will be pulling out of the oven, homemade pizza with each person’s favorite topping and even cooked to the degree of goldenness that each family member prefers. She sleeps on my youngest’s top bunk and doesn’t complain about anything. 
 

My son started “staying with friends” when he turned 17. Some of his friends’ parents thought he was homeless. He would say, “Oh no! I have a big home and a really loving family!” He was just ready to be a grown up and have a little space. By the time he turned 18, he had his own apartment and was soon making enough money that he just bought new clothes when he didn’t want to do laundry. 
 

We lived across the country from each other and didn’t get to see him often but that was okay, because I knew he was doing what adult kids are supposed to do. He has come back to stay with us for a few months and I enjoy having him here. He engages with his younger siblings, always washes his own dishes and just lets me know where he is going and when he will be back so I won’t worry. Sometimes he runs errands with me even though he doesn’t need anything because it is fun to spend time with mom. 
 

From my point of view, we really didn’t have any tricky areas or growing pains when they were leaving the nest. 
 

But everything is different with the one I have in transition now. I have always considered her a little different from the rest of us. I used to think of her as Cousin Marilyn from The Munsters, so I take extra time to meet her needs, knowing they might not get met with what is fine for the rest of the family. But to her, her childhood was miserable. My parenting was abusive. She “remembers” things happening that all 6 of us are certain never happened. If I ask her to wash her own dishes, she complains to other people how nothing she ever does is good enough and I make her life miserable. 
 

I have been hoping that she just needs to do some growing up. I was thrilled when she went off to school with her best friend. Unfortunately that relationship blew up. The next year she roomed with someone “better” that living situation couldn’t last a semester. Dh told me he fears she has a personality disorder. I’m still hoping she is just slower maturing. But in any case, it is time for her to leave the nest. She has a degree, a car her dad bought her and no student loans. I really feel like my job is done, but she doesn’t seem to have the same motivation to grow up that my other kids do. 
 

All of that is to say that even kids within the same family are so different. What they need from us is so different. If I only had my 2 oldest, I’d feel like launching kids is easy, and I’m not sure what other people are doing wrong. 
 

So hugs to all of the parents trying to navigate this new relationship. 

This is similar to our situation except my oldest is like your youngest and even though we haven't actually launched the last 2 yet, I am absolutely convinced it will be easier than the oldest. Our biggest challenge has been that the oldest wants to bring our younger kids along on her journey, so in addition to letting her experience her own consequences, we have had to set up some major boundaries as far as the younger kids are concerned. The most helpful part of all this is that she lives 7 hours away, so it's easier to manage than if she were here all the time. 

 

It's exhausting and sad but we've come to accept that we have done our job and the rest is really in her hands.

[Katy]

7 hours ago, PeterPan said:

Wanna expand on this? 

I’m not sure what you want me to expand on. By 16 I expect that most kids can be pretty much responsible for themselves, just need a bit of handholding when it comes to follow through. You lose some executive function at puberty and it doesn’t come back until 25.  And I think a great deal of what we as a society expect of kids that age has more to do with social skill building and the simple grind of doing mundane tasks every day than anything else.
 

Self discipline is nothing more than forcing yourself to do what you need to when you’d prefer to do something else. Kids who are good at doing those things and who also have a decent grasp on who they are tend to succeed whether they have involved parents or not. Some kids take longer to learn this than others. If they’re being responsible and making good decisions I’m going to treat them like an adult whether they are 14 or 26.  If they’re not, if they need more hand holding they won’t have as much freedom. 

[Halftime Hope]

20 hours ago, GoodGrief3 said:

There is some interesting mis-remembering going on around here. 

Oh my, yes.  

[Pen]

 

On 12/27/2020 at 11:19 AM, Tanaqui said:

How about a response like this? "I'm sorry I made you feel like I didn't support you. I didn't realize at the time that those trips were so important to you. I wish I'd understood that then, and I'm glad you told me now."

excellent!

 

I find myself increasingly just helping when asked .  More background cheerleader . Only if really critical seeming to me do I put in advice as I know it usually comes across as nagging

 

Texting  for communication about things like schedule helps 

 

It’s a difficult stage !  

[LMD]

I really disagree with apologising for the hikes thing. I may be mother but I'm also a person and it feels like encouraging them to shift responsibility for their own emotions onto perceived injustices and a convenient scapegoat.

Sure, I'd listen to their feelings. Instead of apologising though, I'd ask them questions. Does she remember these other times you supported her? Why does she think you made the decision you did? What is she envisioning as the correct amount of support from you, and is that a realistic or fair expectation (remember, mother is a person too, not a validation machine)?

I just think it's so unhealthy to be constantly self-flagellating about normal, mostly fine, imperfect but loving childhoods. Not going on 2 hikes is hardly a trauma to apologise for. More likely I'd say "I get that you feel it was unfair. I hope you'd give your own parents the benefit of the doubt, that we had our reasons for making that decision. Isn't it great that you're an adult and can now do those things any time you choose."

[1234]

I feel for some things it’s a good idea to agree you probably didn’t handle it the best and apologize. We all screw up and it’s easy to look back and see it could have gone differently. I think it’s healthy to admit that while also saying you did the best you could in the moment. Dh and I explained to our dc that some decisions were based on our own past and now, looking back, there were probably better ways. It was a very helpful conversation and brought us closer.

My dc are 18 and 21 and we went through the worst of this when oldest was 18-19. We were fortunate enough that oldest was already in therapy and we had a mediator to help us through it. 

I know my own parents did their best but I also can see there were better ways for some things. I don’t expect apologies and I don’t have the type of relationship to even bring it up, so I already feel I’ve done better that my own dc can talk about it with us. 
 
In regards to curfews, we’ve never had them. I had a strict curfew and dh had none. I definitely did much worse things to push against it, so we never had them. So, when our adult dc are home they have no curfew but they are extremely respectful. It’s just never been an issue.