Conflicts with 'nice' people

[Plagefille]

Hopefully I can explain this adequately. I occasionally have problems with a certain type of personality and it is often hard to explain to others why I am upset because the person who hurt me is such a 'sensitive' and 'kind' person. Personally, I prefer to deal with a 'Karen', a type A, or a more assertive person because how they feel is very clear.

An example for a few years ago. 

I invite everyone in the family to my house for Thanksgiving. I want to be the host. The 'nice' person plans to bring more food than their assignment, they take over planning, bring all the cups, plates, decor, etc. Since my husband made the turkey, I literally had nothing to do. I am upset, but my feelings are disregarded because the 'nice' person did it 'out of love' to help me. Except I don't feel love. If they really cared for me they would have let me host the way I wanted to. Others tell me I should be grateful that the 'nice' person was so helpful and caring. But really they disregarded my feelings and took over so it would be the way they wanted it. I feel like if a 'Karen' or a type A person had done the same thing, more people would agree with me because it would be clear that the priority was on it being their way, not my feelings. But the 'nice' person did the same thing in a sneaky way.

 

Current situation has to do with a women who self appointed herself to be on our committee. Now, I know doing everything virtually and by text has made it more difficult, but she has done the same thing. Disregarded my feelings and thoughts (doesn't even acknowledge them) and took over doing it all her way even though our church leader asked for it not to be that way. But she keeps saying she is doing it out of love for others blah, blah, blah. I quit, so I guess she can do it however now. But it seems like others don't really understand how I feel.

Does anyone else have these problems? Why do my feelings not seem to matter? And why because the 'nice' person says it is out of kindness is it okay to take over and disregard others.

[Katy]

Look up covert narcissism and see if the “nice” person fits the profile. 

[Not_a_Number]

Yeah, I don't like dealing with people like that. It's not "nice" to disregard someone's feelings and then claim that it's out of love. 

My MIL can be like this. She's overall a genuinely kind person and we get along overall, but this drives me crazy. The way you show love to people is by first paying attention to what they actually want. 

[Tanaqui]

Ouch, I feel ya. Those people aren't nice.

For the first, the way to handle that is to make everything you planned and then, when they show up, say "Gosh, I made food for everyone! You can take that all home with you!" with a big grin like YOU are being nice by letting them have all their own leftovers. And then don't put it out. "There's just no room! Oh, I wish I'd realized you'd bring the entire meal, but since I cooked everything there's not one inch of space left for any of your dishes! Guess you'll have to take them all home with you! I'm so sorry! It looks lovely! Smile, smile, hug!" and "Nope, it's all decorated! Golly, I'd never let one of my guests decorate for me! I'd feel so rude! But you're so kind! Too bad you have to take this all home with you!"

As for the second, if your church leader asked her not to do it, escalate back to your church leader and tell them you need them to put the banhammer down.

 

[Amethyst]

Controlling people! 
 

Also, I really understand about wanting to host things the way you want to host it! It’s like they can’t accept the gift of your hospitality. That drives me nuts! I feel like telling them “hey, when it’s your turn to host things, we’ll do it your way, but right now it’s my turn and my way!” 

[Carol in Cal.]

I think sometimes you have to kind of take a stand in those circumstances.  And first, ask yourself, is this really something I badly want to do?  

I remember once I had a board position where someone else really really wanted to do something I had been doing for a long time and in fact had pioneered and optimized, and I was not OK with that.  The new person came to me and started talking about her plans, and I just smiled and said, “I intend to serve.”  And she was all like but but but...and I kept smiling and said it again two more times.  And she backed off.  (Actually someone called her off IIRC, but anyway, the point is, I was clear, cheerful, and did not back down.)

Another time I thought, why am I fighting to do this when another perfectly capable person wants to do it more than I do?  So I accepted with thanks and did something else instead.

In the first case, same thing as the first paragraph—No thank you, I already have that handled.  Or, Oh, that is so nice of you, but I’ve already planned and shopped.  Or if she shows up with a bunch of extra food, treat it as a hostess gift.  Either put it out if it fits in your plan, or put it in the fridge (the garage one if you have one, so it’s further away) if you choose.  Either way, smile, say thank you, and if she starts to put it out say, I am doing that myself, thanks.  And proceed to do so.

Key is to project cheerful, calm in chargeness.  They don’t have to understand your feelings, and probably won’t.  But they do have to react to your steely, cheerful clarity/determination.

 

[Guest]

I do understand. My sister was like this with gifts, especially to my kids. It annoyed me so much because, having no kids herself, she would shower my kids with a gazillion gifts and it made my kids’ actual presents from us seem meager. One year she even gave them all filled stockings. She wrapped gifts extravagantly, too, with candy canes tied on and such. If I complained, I would hear, “Well, she doesn’t have kids, so she wants to be the spoiling aunt...” Okay, but I don’t want my kids to be all gifted-out by Christmas morning because they are already buried in gifts and candy from my sister the previous week! 

 

[fairfarmhand]

So explaining the Thanksgiving thing to others, give them an analogy:

Suppose you were painting your house. You had all the colors picked out, you had a vision for how it was supposed to look. The battle-axe comes over to loan you her paintbrush. But rather than simply bringing a paintbrush, they bring over buckets of paint, carpet samples, and a new sofa they'd picked out. You chose a soothing chocolate wall color that was warm and calming to you. You had a ice blue sofa in mind. You wanted sleek wood floors. Instead, you ended up with a black couch, gray walls, red throw pillows and white carpet. The person talks on and on about how they love you and want to "serve" you. Instead, you're stuck with decor that doesn't reflect you and the implied insult that your plans and ideas were less than. That;s not love.

For those who want to put you on a guilt trip for not being "grateful" figure out an analogy that they can understand. A car person might understand the idea of choosing a sleek red convertible, but the "loving" person insists on a 4 wheel drive truck instead. 

This is a form of bullying. No matter how "nice" it seems. 

[BakersDozen]

39 minutes ago, Plagefille said:

But she keeps saying she is doing it out of love for others

I hate this excuse. Love is not selfish and does not seek its own.

[Carol in Cal.]

4 minutes ago, fairfarmhand said:

So explaining the Thanksgiving thing to others, give them an analogy:

Suppose you were painting your house. You had all the colors picked out, you had a vision for how it was supposed to look. The battle-axe comes over to loan you her paintbrush. But rather than simply bringing a paintbrush, they bring over buckets of paint, carpet samples, and a new sofa they'd picked out. You chose a soothing chocolate wall color that was warm and calming to you. You had a ice blue sofa in mind. You wanted sleek wood floors. Instead, you ended up with a black couch, gray walls, red throw pillows and white carpet. The person talks on and on about how they love you and want to "serve" you. Instead, you're stuck with decor that doesn't reflect you and the implied insult that your plans and ideas were less than. That;s not love.

For those who want to put you on a guilt trip for not being "grateful" figure out an analogy that they can understand. A car person might understand the idea of choosing a sleek red convertible, but the "loving" person insists on a 4 wheel drive truck instead. 

This is a form of bullying. No matter how "nice" it seems. 

That is fine advice, but I would not really explain it, nor would I complain about it.  I would simply prevent it.  In a calm, smiling, no thank you, lather, rinse, repeat kind of way.  It’s not nice to go around bitching about people behind their backs, and it’s not necessary to ‘make the case’ to anyone else.  What is needed is to be assertive and preventative.

[Alicia64]

47 minutes ago, Katy said:

Look up covert narcissism and see if the “nice” person fits the profile. 

I used to hear it called closet narcissism, but Katy's right. The type of person you're dealing w/ is a pain in the neck.

Wendy

[catz]

I think when you're hosting you lay out the rules. For a holiday like thanksgiving with family, it's nice to lay out some ground rules "If you'd like to bring a dessert you are welcome to do so.  We will be making turkey, mashed potatoes, etc".   I think if you're upfront, assertive people won't have an entry to make other plans.

That said I have a SIL who just brings stuff without asking.  I have another SIL who almost always insists on hosting and makes really lame holiday meals.  The cheapest cut of meat you can find with frozen corn and jello and processed gravy from a jar does not scream holiday to me.   Does everyone get a turn to host?  Do you let people bring their favorite holiday dish even if you don't like it?   

So she sounds like a control freak.  However, I've been on the other side where we get zero control on many holidays and damn I just want to bring a green salad and a hand prepared side and/or dessert my kids will like please so maybe this holiday isn't something they complain about every year.  If things are being done fairly, there is nothing wrong with assigning people to bring things or saying you're excited to be preparing the meal.  And anyone saying you're wrong for complaining is gaslighting you. 

I think volunteer roles can be touchy.  I have done way above and beyond volunteering over the years and I don't have much patience for someone saying "We should really do X,Y, and Z" without having a plan in place on how that work is going to get done.  Sometimes decisions take a long time especially  remotely and sometimes stuff just needs to get done.  If someone is trying to take over your role, that is one thing and I don't think there is anything wrong with being assertive and laying down clear boundaries if that is the case.  Honestly, if I'm volunteering and the crew gets annoying, I may step back and look for other places to put my energies.

I am working with a homeschool parent in a leadership role right now who has very particular ideas about the way things should be done.   Which is about 3X as much as other groups over the years have chosen to do.  And wants to dole out very large and very focused tasks.  I personally think in volunteer roles, it's better to hand over a more vague task like "event organization" and let someone take that on and decide what that looks like.  

I spent a couple years really irritated with ILs over obnoxious gifts over the holidays etc when my kids were young.  Even as teens my kids bring home WAY too much stuff.  That is one upside of a covid holiday actually.   But really I think people are going to gift what they're going to gift.  MY SIL is a shopper.  I realize that if stuff doesn't work for our household, I just donate it brand new right after the holidays.  I do attempt to screen my kid's lists before handing them onto other relatives, although my husband managed to forget that this year.   At least grandparents are just doing money now.  

Anyway, if you feel like people are walking all over you it is more than fine to be assertive and let people know what you are thinking and how you'd like to handle things.  And I don't think you have to be mean to lay down a boundary or assert your preferences.  People who really are "nice" will step back.  

 

Edited December 19, 2020 by FuzzyCatz

[Shoeless]

I have had this exact holiday with my in-laws. They want it their way, not my way or anyone else's way. Husband didn't understand "But they are saving you all that work!" Well, I wanted to do the work. I have been waiting literally my whole life to host a big, family holiday meal, so no, it isn't a help when your mother shows up with food, takes over my kitchen, and starts ordering me around.  

The people that do this aren't "nice". They are doing it to steal your thunder. They know there will be lots of ooohs and aaahs over the meal or the completed church project, and they can't handle someone other than themselves getting the thanks and admiration. 

[KungFuPanda]

@Plagefille, How do you push back?  What is their response to your version of "Thank you for the offer, but no.  I really want to do this." I don't think every assertive person is a narcissist or a control freak.  I don't attach those labels until I see their response to your honest feelings.  If you don't SHARE those feelings with them, they just might be clueless or simply unable to read minds.  They were very likely socialized that it was rude to show up empty handed and went a little to far with the concept.

 

Person: I'm going to bring A, B, C, D, and E

You: Please don't bring any of that.  Dh is making the turkey and if you do all that there will be nothing left for me to do and I have my heart set on making A, B, C and D, and have already purchased the ingredients to do so.  It would be really nice if you could bring E.

Person:   ????????

What DOES this person do in this situation, or is the real problem that you're not telling them how you feel? I'd have different advice depending upon how this usually plays out in your life.  If a lot of people 'do this to you' then you may actually be the problem.  That would be good news because it's much easier to change your behavior than anyone else's.

Edited December 19, 2020 by KungFuPanda

[Garga]

OP, I’ve run into people like that, too. Well...maybe not a lot of them, but certainly my MIL. Why is it always the MILs?  Note to self: do not take over my future DIL’s hostess duties!

It’s a weird control thing. For Christmas, we rotate hosting among 3 family members. Last year was my year. We all get together and eat some snacks and desserts and order pizza (it’s the middle of the day on the 24th, so the pizza places are open.) I hosted last year and had the finger foods and desserts covered. I don’t mind if a guest brings a dish to share, but she wanted to bring everything, including plates and napkins and cups and drinks.  Part of it was “nice”...but it felt controlling. It’s nice for a guest to bring a special dessert to share. It’s controlling for a guest to bring all the food and the plates and the napkins and the cups and the drinks.

She really struggled with letting us handle the pizza toppings and picking up the pizza. She makes it very complicated and tries to coordinate all the toppings with everyone. We decided to simply buy everyone a half pizza with the topping of their choice. It was only 6 pizzas, so it wasn’t like we were ordering 30 pizzas. We acted as other posters have said, and cheerily told her, “We’ve got the pizza handled!” But she did keep at it for a few tries, trying to make it complicated (“what if I can’t eat an entire half pizza?” “then you’ll have leftovers or Nephew will eat some extra!”, “the pizza place won’t want to have to make 6 pizzas with 12 different toppings,” “oh, they won’t mind!”, etc) until she gave up. 

That was last year and after 28 years I’m better equipped to handle this. When it comes out of the blue or from someone you haven’t known for 28 years it can be disorienting. I did have to be firm that I already had the plates and cups and snacks/dessert. I let her bring some stuff, too, (because letting guests share a favorite dessert or snack is polite) but I still made plenty of my own and we just had an abundance. I said, “Oh, I already bought the X and Y.” Telling her that I had already bought it was the ticket.

My MIL isn’t evil, but she doesn’t handle giving up control very well, at least not when it comes to family dinners. I’ve learned to just cheerily forge ahead and do my own thing.  But there were missteps along the way over the years, of course. But after 28 years you learn how to sidestep the mines. 🙂

And I agree with @KungFuPanda that sometimes you have to flat out tell someone, “Oh please don’t bring all that. I’m so looking forward to hosting this year and providing the meal.” Because sometimes the nice person is honestly just totally clueless.  However, it can be hard to do that when you’re put on the spot. Someone says, “I’ll help you out and bring all this stuff...” and you’re like, “Oh...um...okaaaay? Um...” and by then it’s a done deal. So, it’s good you’re thinking about this now and will know how to handle this sort of thing in the future.  

 

Edited December 19, 2020 by Garga

[Carol in Cal.]

PS There is a difference between control freaking and maintaining beloved traditions.

In my FOO there are two things we always have that I absolutely hate.  One is an utterly boring applesauce cake which is a requirement for Christmas Eve dinner.  The other is a pasty, nasty stuffing recipe that convinced me that I hated stuffing for years until I finally had some that was good.  They both date back about 100 years, and if someone wants to make them, there are folks that enjoy them, my own feelings notwithstanding.  I go along with it because it’s the tradition, I don’t eat any or force kiddo to do so, and I won’t make them myself.  But I get it.  I have things like that, too.

I used to think that if I could make extra food it was a nice contribution, but one time my aunt kind of quietly freaked out when I brought 3 extra things in addition to the committed one.  I had had more time than I thought I would, and I thought she would appreciate it.  Not so much.  But then (and this is key) I LEARNED.  I didn’t do it again.  If I had something extra I called first to see if it was welcome.  The OP’s family is not learning.  Something needs to be done.

[KungFuPanda]

I wonder if the people who bring the 5 extra unsolicited dishes are the same people who don't bring serving spoons for ANY of them? 😆

[Shoeless]

3 minutes ago, KungFuPanda said:

I wonder if the people who bring the 5 extra unsolicited dishes are the same people who don't bring serving spoons for ANY of them? 😆

If they don't bring spoons, I consider that a problem solved!  "Sorry, I can't put out your delightful green bean and jello salad. No spoons!"

Edited December 19, 2020 by MissLemon

[MEmama]

That behavior is passive aggressive and controlling, not “nice”. Full stop.

Asking “How can I help?”, accepting the answer, and following through is True Nice. Adults really ought to recognize the difference.   
 

[gardenmom5]

Let me get this straight - person comes in and has taken over your holiday where you are hosting in your home (and have made plans that have been thrown by the wayside) and you still think she's "nice"?  "nice" people do not USURP other people's hosting in their own home - and that's what that (not) "nice" person did.

are you familiar with narcissism?  Generally those outside the narcissist's orbit can think they are wonderful people and very helpful, and how ungrateful you are for not wanting to change all your plans to accommodate their "helpfulness".

As for the church lady - who put her on the committee?  Did your church leader tell her, specifically as part of the committee, how they want it done/not-the-way-she's-doing-it? was she there when the parameters were announced?  -  your church leader is the person who should be the one to reign her in since she's doing it "her way", and not the way they want it done.

I'd be sorely tempted to stand back and let the effluent hit the fan.  Let her do it all by herself, since she wants to do everything herself that is . . . . . . (when she complains no one is helping . . But dear, you knew best how you want it done, I'd be afraid of making a mistake so I think it best that you do it yourself so it is exactly how you want it done. - and when she says: 'but . . " rinse, repeat.)

 

have you read Boundaries by Townsend and Cloud? - I'd strongly suggest it.

 

[gardenmom5]

2 hours ago, Katy said:

Look up covert narcissism and see if the “nice” person fits the profile. 

Dr. Ramani on youtube is very good at explaining narcissism.

 

[HS Mom in NC]

You're miscategorizing them.  They're not nice.  Nice people respect boundaries and feelings.  There are lots of genuinely nice people out there who would never dream of behaving as you describe in your post. You're encountering a manipulative person.

[gardenmom5]

3 hours ago, Plagefille said:

And why because the 'nice' person says it is out of kindness is it okay to take over and disregard others.

It isn't "ok".    =>=>=>

2 hours ago, BakersDozen said:

I hate this excuse. Love is not selfish and does not seek its own.

This!

[TechWife]

For the Thanksgiving dinner:

"While you have some great ideas, it's our turn to host and I need you to only bring dinner rolls. Anything else would be a waste of time and money as I have the menu set."

If the person shows up with something other than dinner rolls:

"You must have not understood my direction. Why don't you make room for this in the fridge so that you can enjoy it when you take it home."  If you live in a cold enough climate you can just tell them to put it back in their car.

 

For volunteer board work - that's a different animal entirely.

"Thanks for you input. We will be determining committee roles soon and I will keep it in mind."

or

"In other situations that might work, but we do xyz because it has proven to be effective and economical (or whatever) over time. This year we will stick with what I know works. No need to throw the baby out with the bath water. I really appreciate your ideas, keep them coming."

Then, work to find that enthusiastic new board member a role that they can fill or someone who can mentor them to take over a role they will be giving up in the future. Enthusiastic volunteers are gold, but they do need to be directed so that their work actually advances the mission of the organization. While change is often necessary and many things do benefit from a new person with fresh ideas, the changes must still be made within the existing purpose and framework.

"I have a position open on the fundraising committee. You generate such great ideas - can I count on you to fill that position?"

[gardenmom5]

2 hours ago, FuzzyCatz said:

    Does everyone get a turn to host?  Do you let people bring their favorite holiday dish even if you don't like it?   

 

 

I get what you're saying - but the converse is also true.  If OP is always hosting, and they want to host - they're free to not go to OPs, and to invite people to their own house.  (my sil would do stuff like above - but she didnt' want to do the work, she just wanted the attention.  Now she's free to host, and have all the work too.)

 

[Amy Gen]

I have a true story about this. My friend who is the event’s organization for our swim team was going out of town and asked me to fill in. I set everything out, leaving spaces on the table for items I knew would be coming a little later. I was waiting by my set up tables when the coach asked me to take pictures because the parent who volunteered to that never showed up. 
 

After I’ve taken a few pictures, I sense movement over by the tables. A random parent is rearranging everything. I said, “Hey, what is going on?” She starts in on how the hot food goes on this side and the desserts belong over there.” I said, “but I had it just how I wanted it.” She told me it wasn’t about me. I am not the team. And this is a TEAM event. I went back to taking pictures, and then I thought, no, I’m not putting up with that. I promised my friend that I’d do a good job, and I wasn’t going to let her down. 
 

I walked back to the table and started putting things back where I had them and simply said, “Actually it DOES matter where I want things.” 
 

OH EM GEE

This super nice, helpful lady started telling me I was a real bitch and she ought to kick my ass. I sarcastically answered, “Why Thank You!” or “That is so lovely.”

Finally when she couldn’t intimidate me, she went off to complain to other people. My friends who know that parent really liked her. They said she was “super sweet”. They said it was so surreal that really expected to be on Candid Camera. 
 

So here is the whole point of my story. This parent was nice because she always got her way and no one ever crossed her. 
 

Am I a bitch? Probably. But what is the alternative? Allowing unasked people to take over your projects? I hardly think that is an option. 

[MercyA]

I wish someone would offer to bring all the food to MY house. 😉 

But, yeah, if they can't take no for an answer, or if they want to bring all the tableware and decor as well, that's going way too far. I don't really know anyone like that, but it would drive me bonkers for sure. 

I did come across someone like that once. We were having a co-op book sale. It's a major undertaking and has been tweaked and perfected over the years. Someone not in our co-op volunteered to help. She kept telling us we were Doing It Wrong AND telling other people to do it differently! And I'm pretty sure she kept doing it her way after she was told not to do so. It was so odd to me. And because I was caught off guard, and because I wanted to be nice, I didn't know what to say (or didn't want to say it).  

[saraha]

7 hours ago, Not_a_Number said:

Yeah, I don't like dealing with people like that. It's not "nice" to disregard someone's feelings and then claim that it's out of love. 

My MIL can be like this. She's overall a genuinely kind person and we get along overall, but this drives me crazy. The way you show love to people is by first paying attention to what they actually want. 

YES

It's not "nice" and it's not "helpful" if I don't want/need/ask for it

[Tap]

I used to get ran over by nice people because I let them. I had zero say in my own wedding, because I didn't want to offend people who were offering to help. I tried to say what I wanted, was told it wasn't good enough. It was my sisters/mom who wanted my wedding to be 'more'. In the process, I hated what it became. I was poor, planned a wedding in 1 week, and was 3 months pregnant. I wanted a tiny wedding at a JP, and a dinner with friends. Just a sweet celebration with low stress. They didn't have a lot of money either, so they ended making it a cheesy, trashy memory for me. I try to focus on thier good intentions, but my wedding itself, did not reflect me at all. 

After that experience, I started to get more vocal and stopped letting people run me over. If I was hosting and someone wanted to bring more food, I would say "thank you for your generosity, but I've got it all covered. It would be realllllly awkward (with vocal emphasis)  if you bring a second xxx, because then people would have to choose between them LOL". I put it back on them, to make them realize thier making things awkward ...not me. 

 

[J-rap]

I think with someone like that, you have to be clear and stand your ground.  So with "nice" person coming for Thanksgiving, you can be just as "nice" right back, and say "Thanks, but I'm all set.  I do not need anything else."  And if she still ends up bringing all the plates and decorations, you can continue your "niceness" with "How lovely, but I'll set these aside because as I explained, I do not need them."  I know that feels uncomfortable, but what she's doing isn't right, or nice, if she's not considering your feelings and what you clearly asked of her.

[Plagefille]

8 hours ago, KungFuPanda said:

@Plagefille, How do you push back?  What is their response to your version of "Thank you for the offer, but no.  I really want to do this." I don't think every assertive person is a narcissist or a control freak.  I don't attach those labels until I see their response to your honest feelings.  If you don't SHARE those feelings with them, they just might be clueless or simply unable to read minds.  They were very likely socialized that it was rude to show up empty handed and went a little to far with the concept.

 

Umm... My DH says I don't respond clearly enough. I don't want to hurt their feelings, both of these people are very sensitive, so my responses are not strong enough. Then usually I get so upset and frustrated, as it continues, that I say something rude or mean and quit the event, party, committee, etc. And everyone thinks I overreacted to someone just trying to help. Which at that point it probably is a bit of an overreaction. Very unhealthy cycle. So I definitely need to work on my responses. I told my DH part of my problem is lack of practice because I have spent the last 16 years at home full time with my kids.

[Plagefille]

6 hours ago, gardenmom5 said:

Let me get this straight - person comes in and has taken over your holiday where you are hosting in your home (and have made plans that have been thrown by the wayside) and you still think she's "nice"?  "nice" people do not USURP other people's hosting in their own home - and that's what that (not) "nice" person did.

are you familiar with narcissism?  Generally those outside the narcissist's orbit can think they are wonderful people and very helpful, and how ungrateful you are for not wanting to change all your plans to accommodate their "helpfulness".

As for the church lady - who put her on the committee?  Did your church leader tell her, specifically as part of the committee, how they want it done/not-the-way-she's-doing-it? was she there when the parameters were announced?  -  your church leader is the person who should be the one to reign her in since she's doing it "her way", and not the way they want it done.

I'd be sorely tempted to stand back and let the effluent hit the fan.  Let her do it all by herself, since she wants to do everything herself that is . . . . . . (when she complains no one is helping . . But dear, you knew best how you want it done, I'd be afraid of making a mistake so I think it best that you do it yourself so it is exactly how you want it done. - and when she says: 'but . . " rinse, repeat.)

 

have you read Boundaries by Townsend and Cloud? - I'd strongly suggest it.

 

Wow, you perfectly described what happens. Our church leader is so scared of offend anyone that he really has no control. (There was an incident years ago that caused a family to leave, and it really hurt him). She said she wanted to do it and he didn't stop her. She has often done most things by herself. I actually think she prefers it that way. But she insists on having people on committees she is in charge of and then complains about all the work after doing it all herself.

[Carol in Cal.]

9 hours ago, Quill said:

I do understand. My sister was like this with gifts, especially to my kids. It annoyed me so much because, having no kids herself, she would shower my kids with a gazillion gifts and it made my kids’ actual presents from us seem meager. One year she even gave them all filled stockings. She wrapped gifts extravagantly, too, with candy canes tied on and such. If I complained, I would hear, “Well, she doesn’t have kids, so she wants to be the spoiling aunt...” Okay, but I don’t want my kids to be all gifted-out by Christmas morning because they are already buried in gifts and candy from my sister the previous week! 

 

We don’t have lavish gift givers like that but we do have Big Family Christmas on Christmas Day, and my inlaws used to kind of expect (nicely though) that DD open their present Christmas Eve or Christmas Day.  So, except for the stocking, I wouldn’t give out any of our own presents until after Christmas, but we continued to celebrate through 12th Night.  This at least spread out the toy orgy so there wasn’t such a let down afterwards.

[Plagefille]

1 hour ago, Tap said:

I used to get ran over by nice people because I let them. I had zero say in my own wedding, because I didn't want to offend people who were offering to help. I tried to say what I wanted, was told it wasn't good enough. It was my sisters/mom who wanted my wedding to be 'more'. In the process, I hated what it became. I was poor, planned a wedding in 1 week, and was 3 months pregnant. I wanted a tiny wedding at a JP, and a dinner with friends. Just a sweet celebration with low stress. They didn't have a lot of money either, so they ended making it a cheesy, trashy memory for me. I try to focus on thier good intentions, but my wedding itself, did not reflect me at all. 

After that experience, I started to get more vocal and stopped letting people run me over. If I was hosting and someone wanted to bring more food, I would say "thank you for your generosity, but I've got it all covered. It would be realllllly awkward (with vocal emphasis)  if you bring a second xxx, because then people would have to choose between them LOL". I put it back on them, to make them realize thier making things awkward ...not me. 

 

I am glad I am not the only one who's wedding ended up that way. (The Thanksgiving example is my mom). She took over my wedding too. Luckily my husband stood up for me when it came to the invites. I am so glad he did because it was the only thing from our wedding I liked for many years.

I HATED my wedding memories book for years because it was not the one I wanted. A few years ago I realized that there was no reason I have to keep the one I hated. I bought scrap book supplies, pulled everything out of the old book, and made a new wedding memories book. I now love that book. 

[gardenmom5]

2 hours ago, Plagefille said:

Umm... My DH says I don't respond clearly enough. I don't want to hurt their feelings, both of these people are very sensitive, so my responses are not strong enough. Then usually I get so upset and frustrated, as it continues, that I say something rude or mean and quit the event, party, committee, etc. And everyone thinks I overreacted to someone just trying to help. Which at that point it probably is a bit of an overreaction. Very unhealthy cycle. So I definitely need to work on my responses. I told my DH part of my problem is lack of practice because I have spent the last 16 years at home full time with my kids.

those are all flags for narcissistic behavior.   their "sensitivity" is akin to a two year old throwing a tantrum because they're not getting their way.  

 

Boundaries - when to say no, how to say yes.   you do not have to be an audience for their tantrum.

[Monica_in_Switzerland]

I can remember a Dear Abbey column along these lines.  Like previous posers, she suggested you smilingly stand firm on your plans (for hosting a dinner, say).  If the guest showed up with 10 unasked for dishes and 14 bottles of unasked for wine, then treat them, smilingly, like a hostess gift.  "Oh this is wonderful.  I will pop these into my Tupperware so you'll be able to take your bowls home tonight.  The meal for today is ready to serve, and these gifts will keep DH and I fed for the rest of the week.  How kind of you."  I can remember thinking Dear Abbey had some serious uhhh... guts.

 

The women you're talking about sound like control freaks to me.  I don't think it necessarily has to go as far as narcissism, though perhaps for some it is.  My mom can be like this if not told very firmly what her role is.  Once it's clear though, she can happily let it go.  I have to make a conscious effort to not be like this.  I am a natural project manager.  But I would NEVER act against a host's wishes and then claim "love"- that sounds like manipulation and incredibly rudeness.  

[HS Mom in NC]

9 hours ago, Plagefille said:

 Our church leader is so scared of offend anyone that he really has no control. (There was an incident years ago that caused a family to leave, and it really hurt him).

He's not leadership material.  I know that sounds harsh, but anyone getting involved in leading a group of people just can't have this personality type.  It's something we all need to guard against in our churches, businesses, other groups,  and our homes.  If he doesn't have it in him to do The Necessary, he's going create a toxic environment because of his cowardice, shortsightedness,  and naivete. Many seminaries and Bible colleges fail to equip church leadership in this particular area and sometimes it's the graduates themselves rejecting the good instruction they were given because it's easier to write papers about doctrine than it is to apply principles to real world situations, and they're the type to do hard things in the real world.

We need to understand it ourselves in our own circles and teach our children to look out for this kind of thing when choosing or becoming leaders because this kind of person that the church leader is worships emotional comfort.  I use the word worship because that kind of person sacrifices what's right and the long term peace and stability that comes from dealing with difficult people at the altar of his own personal comfort in the short term by avoiding doing the parts of his job he doesn't like. 

It's also a sign of a distorted view of reality-a tragic trait in a leader.  It's like believing in faeries or Neverland. It's complete and utter mythology. There's no way everyone's comfort can be maintained at all times.  Eventually something will come up where the right thing to do will be confronting an over-stepper and enforcing a boundary with them. If he's not willing to do that when necessary, he's not competent at his job.  Your church should find someone who is.

I've seen this first hand at two churches I attended.  I've seen plenty of churches where leaders were willing to deal with things as they came up even though it was difficult.  The contrast was stark.  I respected the ones that did.  Their churches are better for it. The ones that didn't were eventually destroyed by their own spineless leadership.

[gardenmom5]

8 hours ago, Monica_in_Switzerland said:

 

 

The women you're talking about sound like control freaks to me.  I don't think it necessarily has to go as far as narcissism, though perhaps for some it is.   

It really doesn't matter if it's full-blown narcissism or not.  They're seriously overstepping - and the requires serious boundaries and pushback.

 

[SKL]

Yes, I have dealt with this with multiple people.

One friend used to insist on treating / paying every time we did anything.  I was the person with greater financial means, and the way I was raised, you at least reciprocate so there is mutual give and take.  When I took her and her husband out to eat, she would secretly pay when I went to the bathroom.  If I said anything, she would say that I was comparing what we did for each other, and friends don't do that.  After enough of this nonsense, I just stopped answering / returning her phone calls.  The "friendship" was making me feel like crap.

And then there are my two housemates.  There are certain things I would really rather do by myself, especially things that concern my kids.  They may start "helping" and I will say "please let me do ___" or "please don't ___" or "I would actually rather you did ___ [like, clear up your own mess] if you are feeling that energetic."  They usually don't listen.  One of them even gets this saintly look on her face, like she is the best person on the planet for doing what I asked her not to do.  It makes me MAD!  And then I am a bad person, because how can anyone be mad at such a nice, sweet person?  These are just some of the reasons why I try to do all my stuff when they are not around ... which has become a lot harder since Covid!

And then there is a person who will buy me or my kids a $20 gift, shortly before or after asking me for $XXX.  As I tell my kids, the only correct answer to a gift is "thank you," and also, one must never make a person feel small for needing money.  So I say nothing.  BUT!  How could this not be annoying?

[mathnerd]

1 hour ago, SKL said:

And then there are my two housemates.  There are certain things I would really rather do by myself, especially things that concern my kids.  They may start "helping" and I will say "please let me do ___" or "please don't ___" or "I would actually rather you did ___ [like, clear up your own mess] if you are feeling that energetic."  They usually don't listen.  One of them even gets this saintly look on her face, like she is the best person on the planet for doing what I asked her not to do.  It makes me MAD!  And then I am a bad person, because how can anyone be mad at such a nice, sweet person?  These are just some of the reasons why I try to do all my stuff when they are not around ... which has become a lot harder since Covid!

You seem to be living with my in-laws 😉

 

[GoodGrief3]

1 hour ago, SKL said:

And then there is a person who will buy me or my kids a $20 gift, shortly before or after asking me for $XXX.  As I tell my kids, the only correct answer to a gift is "thank you," and also, one must never make a person feel small for needing money.  So I say nothing.  BUT!  How could this not be annoying?

My mom (probable borderline personality disorder) used to do that. She would ask for money then send cash gifts in birthday/holiday cards for me or the kids. Yes, annoying.

[Shoeless]

14 hours ago, Plagefille said:

I am glad I am not the only one who's wedding ended up that way. (The Thanksgiving example is my mom). She took over my wedding too. Luckily my husband stood up for me when it came to the invites. I am so glad he did because it was the only thing from our wedding I liked for many years.

I HATED my wedding memories book for years because it was not the one I wanted. A few years ago I realized that there was no reason I have to keep the one I hated. I bought scrap book supplies, pulled everything out of the old book, and made a new wedding memories book. I now love that book. 

Solidarity. My stepmother hijacked my wedding, too. I got to pick out the flowers, and that is it. She even had opinions on our plans for a honeymoon. 

I don't let people push me around like that anymore.

[Shoeless]

1 minute ago, GoodGrief3 said:

My mom (probable borderline personality disorder) used to do that. She would ask for money then send cash gifts in birthday/holiday cards for me or the kids. Yes, annoying.

We just got hit up with this type of request, too. I have to admit, I didn't see it coming. Once I realized what was up, I just found the whole thing to be really sad. 

[GoodGrief3]

2 minutes ago, MissLemon said:

We just got hit up with this type of request, too. I have to admit, I didn't see it coming. Once I realized what was up, I just found the whole thing to be really sad. 

It's about their fear of being alone. Can't have healthy interaction, so the neediness forces interaction around money. I get it, but it's still tiring.

[Shoeless]

22 minutes ago, GoodGrief3 said:

It's about their fear of being alone. Can't have healthy interaction, so the neediness forces interaction around money. I get it, but it's still tiring.

Bipolar disorder is the driving force here. They are either spending $2,000 on custom tree houses for the favorite grandkid or crying on the phone to us that they have no money for gifts this year and are thinking of selling their sofa to pay for a gift for my kid. So, we will be last minute buying a gift for our kid and say it is from the relative and sending some money to relative, too, (which will probably just get blown on something dumb for the favorite grandchild). 

The whole thing is sad and exhausting. 

[history-fan]

I think many people know a "Marie Barone". Sometimes I have had to watch a few episodes to prepare for the visit, just to help find the funny. If you have never watched Everybody loves Raymond you might find it a good stress laugh.   You can google some of Marie Barone's lack of boundaries clips.

Edited December 20, 2020 by history-fan

[gardenmom5]

2 hours ago, SKL said:

Y 

And then there are my two housemates.  There are certain things I would really rather do by myself, especially things that concern my kids.  They may start "helping" and I will say "please let me do ___" or "please don't ___" or "I would actually rather you did ___ [like, clear up your own mess] if you are feeling that energetic."  They usually don't listen.  One of them even gets this saintly look on her face, like she is the best person on the planet for doing what I asked her not to do.   

 

where are they from?  My midwestern grandmother expected people to BEG her to be able to do something for her.  That meant they really meant it, and she got to pretend she wasn't putting them out.  while she was a narcissist - I think she thought that was good manners.

16 minutes ago, history-fan said:

I think many people know a "Marie Barone". Sometimes I have had to watch a few episodes to prepare for the visit, just to help find the funny. If you have never watched Everybody loves Raymond you might find it a good stress laugh. Heres a short clip

  

Don't laugh

There was a dr. phil episode where a couple were ready to move without a forwarding address because his mother would walk into their bedroom while they were in the middle of private time.  More than once.  She didn't live with them - she let herself in their house too.  I don't remember if they'd locked their door or not - door locks never stopped my mil. 

(MIL did live with us.  She decided to "deep clean" our bedroom while we were on vacation.  The house was less than a year old - it didn't need deep cleaning. half our bedroom furniture was in the living room when we came home a day early.  The next time we went somewhere - I locked the door.  She picked it.  at least she left the furniture alone.)

[Anne]

OP, you have gotten great advice here.  This person is NOT "being nice"!!

Maybe you could practice your responses with your dh?  It sounds as if he probably knows the things your person will try and pull, and he knows how you tend to react.  I find it much easier to respond the way I want if I practice!

 

Anne

[Tanaqui]

21 hours ago, Plagefille said:

Umm... My DH says I don't respond clearly enough. I don't want to hurt their feelings, both of these people are very sensitive, so my responses are not strong enough. Then usually I get so upset and frustrated, as it continues, that I say something rude or mean and quit the event, party, committee, etc. And everyone thinks I overreacted to someone just trying to help. Which at that point it probably is a bit of an overreaction. Very unhealthy cycle. So I definitely need to work on my responses. I told my DH part of my problem is lack of practice because I have spent the last 16 years at home full time with my kids.

 

If they're really sensitive, then the kindest thing you can do is set firm boundaries right from the start. (And when they get to, as they inevitably will, "I'm just trying to help", then say firmly - with no apology! - "I don't want your help.")

[SKL]

9 hours ago, gardenmom5 said:

where are they from?  My midwestern grandmother expected people to BEG her to be able to do something for her.  That meant they really meant it, and she got to pretend she wasn't putting them out.  while she was a narcissist - I think she thought that was good manners.

I'm familiar with the "say no 3 times" etiquette rule, but this is not that.  Also, these people have lived with me for 25 years, so it's not like they don't know when I mean no....