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Just now, Not_a_Number said:

Definitely. I hope I haven't sounded like there's a "best way." 

 

Isn't saying "many kids dislike it when their mothers go to work" a way of saying that for many kids, it's NOT the best way? That seems like exactly the kind of thing we shouldn't be saying. 

I think kids like feeling like they are a priority. I think kids can feel like they are a priority even when mothers work out of the house.

Well...I don't know that if the kids dislike it initially that it is a 100% bad idea. So if the childcare arrangements are lousy, sometimes that can be changed. If the kids don't like that certain things that are important to them are not happening, that can be changed. I think where things get disappointing for the kids is when they don't feel they can say that or that things can't be changed and the kids just have to suck it up and deal. 

The kids who had working moms may not necessarily have hated that their moms were working. It was that the alternatives given to the kids were unsuitable. So working parents have to do a good job of checking in with their kids and making sure that the kids can be 100 percent honest about the changes and that their needs and at least SOME of their wants can be planned for. 

My mom was a working mom after we were in school. But all of her work hours happened while were in class so it made no difference to me what she did while I was at school. My feelings would have been different had I been forced to go to an unpleasant after school care setting, especially if the work was her choice and not a necessity. 

I think about the Ramona Quimby books and how she really didn't like the arrangements her mom had made for her after school care, It took awhile for the family to settle into a better arrangement, and then she was much happier. So what I'm saying is that the kids' initial dislike shouldnt be the standard for whether mom working or not is a good or bad thing,

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Just now, regentrude said:

Excellent point. Besides culture: finances, biology, and politics. 
In many families there is an asymmetry in earning potential, so financially it would make no sense to revers the roles.

True, although that wasn't the case in my family. 

 

Just now, regentrude said:

Pumping breastmilk at work so the father can bottle feed at home adds an extra layer of stress that many families would rather avoid.

Of course, we don't HAVE to breastfeed, either 😉 . (And I say this as someone who happily breastfed DD8 until 2.5 and DD4 until 1, when she gave it up herself.) 

 

Just now, regentrude said:

Things would probably look very different if we had decent maternity leave in this country and mothers would know they had a job to return to after the first baby phase - something all other countries seem to have figured out.

Yeah, I'd love that. Also, frankly, I'd like more acceptance of the fact that half a good employee is better than a whole bad employee. I wish there were more part-time jobs available, because I'm not at all sure that companies would lose out by that. 

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Just now, fairfarmhand said:

Well...I don't know that if the kids dislike it initially that it is a 100% bad idea. So if the childcare arrangements are lousy, sometimes that can be changed. If the kids don't like that certain things that are important to them are not happening, that can be changed. I think where things get disappointing for the kids is when they don't feel they can say that or that things can't be changed and the kids just have to suck it up and deal. 

I think in general, lack of agency is a huge problem for kids. That's been one of the things I've hoped to communicate to my kids -- that they are family members whose opinions we take seriously. Now, that doesn't mean that they'll always get their way, or nearly always get their way... but their opinions ARE important. 

 

Just now, fairfarmhand said:

The kids who had working moms may not necessarily have hated that their moms were working. It was that the alternatives given to the kids were unsuitable. So working parents have to do a good job of checking in with their kids and making sure that the kids can be 100 percent honest about the changes and that their needs and at least SOME of their wants can be planned for. 

My mom was a working mom after we were in school. But all of her work hours happened while were in class so it made no difference to me what she did while I was at school. My feelings would have been different had I been forced to go to an unpleasant after school care setting, especially if the work was her choice and not a necessity. 

Yeah, I agree with that. I've seen parents try to figure out aftercare and it can be a real nightmare. 

 

Just now, fairfarmhand said:

I think about the Ramona Quimby books and how she really didn't like the arrangements her mom had made for her after school care, It took awhile for the family to settle into a better arrangement, and then she was much happier. So what I'm saying is that the kids' initial dislike shouldnt be the standard for whether mom working or not is a good or bad thing,

Hah, I really wouldn't want Ramona's situation! "Let's just have the grandmother of a friend who doesn't like you at all watch you." Of course, Ramona's family really didn't have a choice... they were broke. 

 

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 Every family is going to find their own way forward -- there are lots of families that do well with two working parents, and lots of families that do well with one parent at home. I firmly believe that there is no one right answer that's going to fit everyone.

I do think that we tend to over-play the importance of work. I really, really want my kids to understand that they don't need to draw their future self-worth from their work. I want them to have long, slow childhoods with lots of unscheduled time. I want them to pay attention to the little things in life, I want them to love learning and creating, and I want them to have strong values.

For me, that translates to staying at home with the kids. I do, also, work part time, because honestly we need the money. The kids understand what I'm doing and they get a kick out of what I'm working on -- sometimes they think it's funny, and sometimes we all learn something together. But I don't think work is my main contribution to the world, and honestly, if I inherited a million dollars tomorrow I would do things differently. I would learn how to paint, and bake sourdough bread, and I would teach English to those who can't afford lessons...so many things! 

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53 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

Also, frankly, why does it HAVE to be the mother that stays home? I know that's a whole other can of worms, but I sometimes worry what exactly I'm communicating to my extremely bright girls by staying home. I don't regret the choices I've made in any way, but I'd like my girls to feel like they have the choice to change the world in other ways... this was my way, and they may have their own. 

Dh and I always knew we wanted one of us to stay home, and in the beginning it was actually dh who did so. It made more financial sense for him to be the one who worked long term though because of his degree and military experience. As soon as he could, he started working from home exclusively though so he could be a bigger part of things.  It definitely doesn’t need to be the mom and not every family definitely needs one parent to stay home. Most of us are just sharing our own experiences and feelings on the topic.

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Just now, Joker2 said:

Dh and I always knew we wanted one of us to stay home, and in the beginning it was actually dh who did so. It made more financial sense for him to be the one who worked long term though because of his degree and military experience. As soon as he could, he started working from home exclusively though so he could be a bigger part of things.  It definitely doesn’t need to be the mom and not every family definitely needs one parent to stay home. Most of us are just sharing our own experiences and feelings on the topic.

No issues at all with people's reported experiences 🙂 . This is just my personal gripe about societal values 😉 . 

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1 hour ago, Not_a_Number said:

 

 

Hah, I really wouldn't want Ramona's situation! "Let's just have the grandmother of a friend who doesn't like you at all watch you." Of course, Ramona's family really didn't have a choice... they were broke. 

 

Totally not a choice for Ramona Quimby.

I love those books because it's such a reminder to me as an adult that kids minds are ticking away in ways that I may not realize. Their perceptions and reality can be so different from what the adults in the situation are presuming. It's so easy to forget that and Beverly Cleary did such a wonderful job of entering the mind of a child and translating it into a story.

And that's what I was trying to get at--working mom or not, it's so important to be plugged into our kids and give them the freedom to speak their own reality; that's more important than fresh baked cookies, bed time stories, and all the extra bonuses. Whether or not a kid's life preferences can be accommodated, I think it makes a big difference to a kid to have a parent hear you out and sympathize with your struggles.

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1 minute ago, fairfarmhand said:

Totally not a choice for Ramona Quimby.

I love those books because it's such a reminder to me as an adult that kids minds are ticking away in ways that I may not realize. Their perceptions and reality can be so different from what the adults in the situation are presuming. It's so easy to forget that and Beverly Cleary did such a wonderful job of entering the mind of a child and translating it into a story.

And that's what I was trying to get at--working mom or not, it's so important to be plugged into our kids and give them the freedom to speak their own reality; that's more important than fresh baked cookies, bed time stories, and all the extra bonuses. Whether or not a kid's life preferences can be accommodated, I think it makes a big difference to a kid to have a parent hear you out and sympathize with your struggles.

You're absolutely right. 

And I've seen the opposite point of view weaponized as well. My mom is VERY difficult (we're very low contact), but whenever I'd complain about any specific treatment she'd trot out the "but I made your favorite cake!" excuse. Yeah... you did make my favorite cake. I like that cake a lot. In the grand scheme of things, that matters to me a lot less than all the things I asked you to do and you didn't, though. 

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This doesn't address the financial side of things, but I guess I personally find being at home more fulfilling in general. Or at least I will when I find my new niche. I was working at something I had trained for, was good at, and enjoyed doing, for the most part (probably every job has some aspects one finds a bit tedious or boring?). But I still felt restless. Maybe I just need irons in a lot of different fires; a life more multi-faceted than I could make work in my circumstances. At first, I enjoyed the job. But after awhile, I just got so tired of it (and I have persevered for many years at various things, so I'm not just a person who has to jump around from thing to thing). My mind wants more to work on than I had, but everything I think of that I enjoy, I wouldn't enjoy as a job, if that makes sense. The things I think I would love doing, are not things that I want to do all day, every day. It might be completely different for someone who has one true passion.

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5 hours ago, Not_a_Number said:

Yeah, this isn't a question about this thread. More about societal assumptions. 

We have been through all the combinations  - SAHD, SAHM, PT work for dh, PT work for me, and FT work for both of us. I was a SAHM for eight years because I wanted to be home, not because it was a smart financial choice. 

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8 hours ago, Not_a_Number said:

Also, frankly, why does it HAVE to be the mother that stays home? I know that's a whole other can of worms, but I sometimes worry what exactly I'm communicating to my extremely bright girls by staying home. I don't regret the choices I've made in any way, but I'd like my girls to feel like they have the choice to change the world in other ways... this was my way, and they may have their own. 


DH is the SAHD while I work FT.  He does most of the homeschooling and works on the house (on the second addition now)   

It is what works for us.   I was glad that both my parents worked outside the home, and I am a better person for it.  Just because she would have nitpicked me to death.   Having her not there forced them to leave a list of what I needed to get done.   If it was done, then they had no reason to complain.  So, I had to take responsibility to get stuff done before I relaxed.   I would have loved to have been homeschooled though.   I'm the type of kid that could have gotten a superior education by just having someone throw books at me.  
 

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1 minute ago, shawthorne44 said:

I would have loved to have been homeschooled though.   I'm the type of kid that could have gotten a superior education by just having someone throw books at me.  

Same! I'm kind of jealous of DD8, because she reads books and builds things most of the day. I'd have enjoyed that life (except instead of building, I'd have done math puzzles.) 

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On 12/21/2020 at 11:33 PM, kiwik said:

I do agree there.  I wish I could cut my hours to 15 a week so I wasn't so damn tired all the time.  I also know it is better for me mentally to work and it is the only income we have.

And I do agree that most households do work better with one person staying at home or mostly at home.

((Hugs)) And kids raised by working moms become independent, strong, capable kids who respect their moms worked so hard for their well- being. ♥️ 

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I reckon kids personality types count too.  I have one kid that would not cope with all day school plus OSH care for me to work because kid really needs their own quiet thinking space.  I would not have coped either school was bad enough.  I have another kid that would probably thrive most of the time with occasional meltdowns.  

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11 hours ago, Ausmumof3 said:

I reckon kids personality types count too.  I have one kid that would not cope with all day school plus OSH care for me to work because kid really needs their own quiet thinking space.  I would not have coped either school was bad enough.  I have another kid that would probably thrive most of the time with occasional meltdowns.  

I agree, my son is like the first if yours you described. But many people are able to work either full or part time and still homeschool, so don’t need to send them to school or use much or any daycare.

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I do think full time jobs for both parents can be hard on the kids, and they require real care to not make the kids feel neglected. I think either having family nearby or having a stable relationship with a babysitter who can pick the kids up after school is pretty key in that situation, at least for lots of kids... I've seen some pretty negative things about commercial aftercare programs. (Not that those NEVER work, but it's hard to get right.) 

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On 12/24/2020 at 5:36 AM, Not_a_Number said:

Definitely. I hope I haven't sounded like there's a "best way." 

 

Isn't saying "many kids dislike it when their mothers go to work" a way of saying that for many kids, it's NOT the best way? That seems like exactly the kind of thing we shouldn't be saying. 

I think kids like feeling like they are a priority. I think kids can feel like they are a priority even when mothers work out of the house.

Most kids don't like vaccinations and dislike many things that they need to do.

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On 12/23/2020 at 7:36 AM, Not_a_Number said:

Also, frankly, why does it HAVE to be the mother that stays home? I know that's a whole other can of worms, but I sometimes worry what exactly I'm communicating to my extremely bright girls by staying home. I don't regret the choices I've made in any way, but I'd like my girls to feel like they have the choice to change the world in other ways... this was my way, and they may have their own. 

It doesn't. I think it is now culturally acceptable but it does happen less often. I have only know 3 SAHDs . I think it will happen more as time goes by though.

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On 12/24/2020 at 5:44 AM, Not_a_Number said:

True, although that wasn't the case in my family. 

 

Of course, we don't HAVE to breastfeed, either 😉 . (And I say this as someone who happily breastfed DD8 until 2.5 and DD4 until 1, when she gave it up herself.) 

 

Yeah, I'd love that. Also, frankly, I'd like more acceptance of the fact that half a good employee is better than a whole bad employee. I wish there were more part-time jobs available, because I'm not at all sure that companies would lose out by that. 

Why don't you guys have better maternity leave? NZ only got paid leave recently but we have had up to a year unpaid leave for a long time.  I got 14 weeks paid leave (at about 80% on minimum wage which is low by international standards but it is a longer period now).  It is having your job held that is the key though.

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On 12/23/2020 at 7:44 AM, fairfarmhand said:

Well...I don't know that if the kids dislike it initially that it is a 100% bad idea. So if the childcare arrangements are lousy, sometimes that can be changed. If the kids don't like that certain things that are important to them are not happening, that can be changed. I think where things get disappointing for the kids is when they don't feel they can say that or that things can't be changed and the kids just have to suck it up and deal. 

The kids who had working moms may not necessarily have hated that their moms were working. It was that the alternatives given to the kids were unsuitable. So working parents have to do a good job of checking in with their kids and making sure that the kids can be 100 percent honest about the changes and that their needs and at least SOME of their wants can be planned for. 

My mom was a working mom after we were in school. But all of her work hours happened while were in class so it made no difference to me what she did while I was at school. My feelings would have been different had I been forced to go to an unpleasant after school care setting, especially if the work was her choice and not a necessity. 

I think about the Ramona Quimby books and how she really didn't like the arrangements her mom had made for her after school care, It took awhile for the family to settle into a better arrangement, and then she was much happier. So what I'm saying is that the kids' initial dislike shouldnt be the standard for whether mom working or not is a good or bad thing,

It really depends on the parent too. My bio mom always worked. She had me on Friday and I was in daycare by Monday. She couldn't afford to miss class. A single mom of 4 working while finishing school and med school. But I would lay on her bed while she was studying and look at anatomy pictures, went to med school with her one day when I wasn't allowed in day care. Just sat on a blanket next to her and looked at books and colored. I never felt the anger though. 

 

While living with my dad years later though my step mom went to work. She worked in public schools and so had summers, weekends, holidays off etc but it was one more added stress (she had others) and it was night and day. Instead of coming home to a friendly face, clean home, and yes often freshly baked cookies I came home, dealt with broken appliances, starting fires, babysitting brothers. All that wasn't really a big deal though. A kid likes to feel helpful. It was how stressed out she was. A simple question was usually answered with a snappish, I'm tired. Do I have to deal with that right when I get home, right before bed, when I'm cleaning, or heading to the grocery store? There was never a good time. Part of this was my father never took on more when she went to work do she had to do everything AND work. 

 

I think focusing on a healthy balance  (preferably with 2 partners actually involved) would go a long ways towards resolving this but I certainly couldn't tell you that having a mom who worked was the same or not that big of a deal compared to when she didn't. 

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10 hours ago, kiwik said:

Why don't you guys have better maternity leave? NZ only got paid leave recently but we have had up to a year unpaid leave for a long time.  I got 14 weeks paid leave (at about 80% on minimum wage which is low by international standards but it is a longer period now).  It is having your job held that is the key though.

We do have Family Medical Leave now that holds your job for 12 weeks unpaid.   Some states allow disability to be used for maternity leave as well.  I'm in NJ and we can get 4-8 weeks before and 6-8 weeks after a birth with disability pay (and disability is a required payroll deduction at least for full time jobs).     But I think there are only 4 or 5 states that do this.  

When my son was born my disability started 6 weeks before my due date because of a previous premature birth.  Then he actually came two weeks late, so I had disability pay for the whole 8 weeks.  Then I had an emergency c-section so had disability pay for 8 weeks after.  Then I was laid off due to the company shutting down (knew it was happening, I was actually glad they were giving me severance without making me return after ds was born) so received a few months severance pay.  Then I was able to collect unemployment for another 13 or so weeks.   All in, I received at least partial pay for about 9-10 months after ds was born, but it was due to a pretty unique set of circumstances.  

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12 hours ago, kiwik said:

Why don't you guys have better maternity leave?

Why don't we have a better social network in general? Better support for the vulnerable, better healthcare accessibility, etc? Probably because of the focus on rugged individualism in this country. These things are "socialism", didn't you know?

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6 hours ago, regentrude said:

Why don't we have a better social network in general? Better support for the vulnerable, better healthcare accessibility, etc? Probably because of the focus on rugged individualism in this country. These things are "socialism", didn't you know

It’s because of our great big boot straps.  Gotta pull ourselves up by those. 

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19 hours ago, kiwik said:

Why don't you guys have better maternity leave? NZ only got paid leave recently but we have had up to a year unpaid leave for a long time.  I got 14 weeks paid leave (at about 80% on minimum wage which is low by international standards but it is a longer period now).  It is having your job held that is the key though.

Because the people that have the ability to make improved maternity leave a reality have enough money that needing paid time off is irrelevant, so it's never a priority. 

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3 minutes ago, MissLemon said:

Because the people that have the ability to make improved maternity leave a reality have enough money that needing paid time off is irrelevant, so it's never a priority. 

I guess so.  But the same could be said in most of the countries where they do.  Paid maternity leave is a"nice to have" but unpaid maternity leave is more a basic human right.  Even if only for 6 months.  Also one year maternity contracts are really good for first jobs or getting back into the workforce.p

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