Moderate Childhood Vaccination Resource Recommendations?

[homeschoolally]

Hello, it's been many years since I've needed this information and I'd really appreciate some recommendations.

It seems the extremes on either side of this debate have widened and I'm having a tough time finding moderate sources without CDC and pharmaceutical company influence.

Thanks in advance for any ideas!

Ally

[wathe]

The Canadian Pediatric Society has oodles of immunization information.  Their book, "Your Child's Best Shot", is particularly good.

I agree with pp that CDC advice is standard of care in the USA.

If by "moderate", you mean alternative to standard of care, then I disagree about your use of the term moderate.

[PeterPan]

You might find the info if you search for "delayed vaccination". https://www.google.com/search?client=safari&rls=en&q=delayed+vaccination+site:welltrainedmind.com&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8  That's a google search of the boards using the term, so you can see old threads. 

To google search, use your terms plus site:welltrainedmind.com 

Edited December 14, 2020 by PeterPan

[MercyA]

What Your Doctor May Not Tell You About Children's Vaccinations sounds like the type of thing you are looking for.

ETA: It is an older book, but lays out the risks and benefits in a balanced way. We are not anti-vaccination, but chose a modified schedule.

Edited December 14, 2020 by MercyA

[drjuliadc]

Dr. Paul Thomas has a very large pediatric practice in Portland Oregon. He allows his patients to choose which vaccines they want. He has a book, the Vaccine Friendly Plan.

I will give one example of a vaccine that I personally would not want for a child, the hepatitis B shot. Hepatitis B is a sexually transmitted/ IV drug user disease. It is completely unwarranted for a newborn baby of a mother who doesn’t have Hep B.

Three shots are given because it is notorious for not creating antibodies. When I was in Med Tech school at Indiana University School of Medicine, I worked in the chemistry lab.  We were required to get the Hep B shot. Unlike for newborns, It is definitely warranted for an adult who is working with blood products. There were 26 students in our class.  After we had the series of three shots, our class decided to run titres to see if we developed antibodies. 50% of us did not develop sufficient antibodies to be considered immune.

So it is unwarranted for babies and not very effective even for adults it may be warranted for.

[prairiewindmomma]

Dr. Paul Thomas had his license to practice medicine suspended this month  https://www.oregonlive.com/portland/2020/12/anti-vaccine-portland-pediatricians-license-suspended-cases-include-boy-hospitalized-with-tetanus.html Most notably, a child in his care ended up with tetanus and nearly died; the child spent 57 days hospitalized (including a good chunk of that on life supportive care). 

[prairiewindmomma]

Coming back to add, I have children for whom I have to pre-medicate and space vaccines.  My decisions were made in conjunction with my physician.  We looked at what diseases were prevalent in our community, what possible consequences would happen if those diseases were contracted, and prioritized from there.  Last winter we had children hospitalized with measles in our community--largely because individuals had traveled internationally and brought it home and spread it among the huge swathes of my area where children are under-immunized.  Herd protection has largely failed for certain diseases in my community. That's frankly terrifying given how many children cannot be immunized for medical reasons (kids undergoing chemotherapy who cannot receive live vaccines, etc.).  

CDC is the standard of care in the United States.  If you think they are not moderate re: vaccinations, I would really urge you to consider that you might be on the extreme end of things and not have a balance for reference. 

 

[Carol in Cal.]

I encourage you to read “And The Ladies Of The Club”.  It’s a fantastic historical novel, and among other things it describes some of these illnesses that were almost eradicated by vaccines.  I found it to provide helpful information in making up my mind, when Mothering Magazine and other local sources were very anti vax.  

Also, basically what I did was do all the vaccines (except chicken pox which was new at the time) in the year that they were mandated, but not all together in single visits as suggested.  I felt that it was silly to needlessly overwhelm my kid’s immune system like that.  Since I was not working outside of the home during that period, making multiple visits was not super hard on me.  I noticed that a lot of the recommendations I was getting were more for WOTH parents who really value efficiency, and that that sometimes did not work as well—the vaccines being one example but also the Z packs with the high dosages for just one pill daily for 5 days caused a pretty bad reaction in DD that she probably would not have had to a standard spread out dose schedule.  

So how this played out is the doctor would prescribe 4-5 shots, maybe with 2-3 components each, and I would allow 2 that first time, and then come back for the rest a couple of months later.  Whether it made a big difference I am not sure, but it felt like a pretty good compromise to me.

 

[drjuliadc]

The  tetanus case in Oregon happened in 2017.  Dr. Thomas’s license was suspended weeks after his vaccinated vs. unvaccinated study was published.

 

[wathe]

22 minutes ago, Carol in Cal. said:

I encourage you to read “And The Ladies Of The Club”.  It’s a fantastic historical novel, and among other things it describes some of these illnesses that were almost eradicated by vaccines.  I found it to provide helpful information in making up my mind, when Mothering Magazine and other local sources were very anti vax.  
 

This post made me want to comment further on "Your Child's Best Shot".  It's chock a block full of info, including the historical burden of each disease covered.  Those sections were eye-opening for me.

It also covers the current incidence of each disease, pathophysiology, how the vaccine is made (and what it's made from) and how it's tested, how it's given, its efficacy, and risks (including the very rare ones, with numerical data).  It's really a very thorough treatment of the topic, with lots of data.  I love data - very helpful for decision making.

[prairiewindmomma]

22 minutes ago, drjuliadc said:

The  tetanus case in Oregon happened in 2017.  Dr. Thomas’s license was suspended weeks after his vaccinated vs. unvaccinated study was published.

 

His license was suspended December 3, 2020. I'm attaching a link to the order: https://omb.oregon.gov/clients/ormb/OrderDocuments/e579dd35-7e1b-471f-a69a-3a800317ed4c.pdf  

The study you mention, which I think is this one: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33266457/ is a retrospective analysis of his own patient records over a ten year period. His co-author on the study has worked previously as a compensated vaccine injury expert witness. 

Ironically, the Portland metro (which includes Beaverton, where his practice is located as well as Clark Co., Washington) had a huge measles outbreak almost two years ago. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2019_Pacific_Northwest_measles_outbreak  None of the 59 individuals who contracted measles had received both suggested MMR vaccines. More than a million tax dollars were expended by the health department in order to do contact tracing and followup.  That money could have been spent elsewhere. 

I'm all for independently funded non-biased studies on vaccine efficacy and safety. 

Edited December 15, 2020 by prairiewindmomma

[Not_a_Number]

Well, I'm very pro-vaccine, but "Crunchy Skeptics" on FB has some vaccine-hesitant moms who have come around. So at the very least you get less judgement if you're hesitant. 

[Mrs Tiggywinkle]

I’ve had serious allergic reactions to some vaccines as a child, though never knew exactly which ones, so we spaced our kid’s.  We did that so if they had a reaction, we knew exactly which vaccine they were allergic too.

 

[Not_a_Number]

35 minutes ago, Mrs Tiggywinkle said:

I’ve had serious allergic reactions to some vaccines as a child, though never knew exactly which ones, so we spaced our kid’s.  We did that so if they had a reaction, we knew exactly which vaccine they were allergic too.

Well, that makes a lot of sense 🙂 . 

I feel like sometimes the anti-vaccine movement makes anyone who's not an anti-vaxxer feel unable to say ANYTHING negative about vaccines, ever. But of course, for some people, it's a good idea to space things out for a variety of reasons. 

[MercyA]

48 minutes ago, Ordinary Shoes said:

Perfect example of misinformation. Hep B is not a "sexually transmitted/IV drug user disease." It is spread through blood and bodily fluids and can survive outside of the body for a week. It is also a very dangerous for an infant. 

According to the Mayo Clinic website, it's spread in four primary ways: sex, drug use, accidental needle sticks, and mother-to-child. The infant vaccinations are in case the baby's mom has the disease, not in case the baby just happens to pick it up somewhere.

I specifically requested that my child not receive it the day she was born. I received a print out of her records a year or two ago and it said she *did* receive it as an infant in the hospital. She was only out of our sight once. It might be a mistake; it might be that they disregarded my very specific instructions which we also had in writing. Needless to say, I was ticked off.

ETA: I even specifically had myself tested for Hep B while having other prenatal bloodwork done, and brought the results with me to the hospital.

Edited December 15, 2020 by MercyA

[prairiewindmomma]

That would really tick me off too, MercyA.

----------

It is horrific to contemplate, but there are children who have sex.  According to the CDC about 1 in 4 girls and 1 in 13 boys are sexually abused in their childhood. https://www.cdc.gov/violenceprevention/childabuseandneglect/childsexualabuse.html 

 

[Terabith]

I'm pretty sure there's no such thing as moderate between CDC and other.  I say that as someone who did delay a significant number of vaccinations, but it's not exactly a moderate stance.  

[MercyA]

2 hours ago, Ordinary Shoes said:

As with every form of preventative medicine, we must weigh the cost versus the benefit. In this case, the risk of the vaccine is very low while the risks of infection are very high. 

Of course, and I think most of us here do that. I also considered the likelihood of my child contracting Hepatitis B as an infant or young child. If my child wants the Hep B or HPV vaccine as a teen / young adult, I will take her to get it (barring any unforeseen new information). 

Edited December 15, 2020 by MercyA

[Terabith]

1 hour ago, Mrs Tiggywinkle said:

I’ve had serious allergic reactions to some vaccines as a child, though never knew exactly which ones, so we spaced our kid’s.  We did that so if they had a reaction, we knew exactly which vaccine they were allergic too.

 

This was exactly my reasoning on spacing my kids' vaccines.  

[wathe]

Whether or not universal Hep B vaccination in infancy makes sense depends on whether one is looking at immunization from an individual protection point of view, or a public health point of view.

Hep B immunization in infancy probably won't make much difference for a low risk baby in a low risk family (both parents negative, well educated, stable family life - plus all the usual other social determinants of health), but can make a huge difference for higher risk babies.   Universal, routine immunization ensures that the highest proportion possible of higher risk babies are protected - as the highest risk families tend to be the ones that fall through the cracks, and universal programs shrink the cracks, so to speak.

Both PP's are right, in that Hep B is transmitted by blood and bodily fluids, and can survive outside the body for days.  But it's also true that most Hep B is spread by sexual contact (bodily fluid exchange) and needle sharing (blood). But, if mother is infected, mother to child transmission rate is really high (90%), and father to child is also relatively high (as high as 65%).  Whether or not universal infant hep B immunization make sense from a public health point of view depends on the prevalence in the population, I think.   Most mothers are diligent with prenatal care, but a significant number aren't, and those at highest risk of Hep B are among those that are less likely get high quality prenatal and antenatal care.  I don't think that there is any question that universal Hep B immunization in infancy prevents childhood Hep B at population level.  The calculus is how many cases, at what cost.

It's not given routinely until age 12 in my province, unless there are risk factors, and there is controversy about that.  Other provinces provide it universally it in infancy.  We had our kids immunized against hep B as young children (and paid for it out of pocket) because we planned to travel - we did both hep A and B at the same time.

Edited - to add missing words in fist sentence - makes more sense now!

Edited December 15, 2020 by wathe

[Drama Llama]

4 minutes ago, kand said:

I didn’t know this—that Hep B was not much risk to an adult and most adults clear it from their system without negative effect. If that’s the case, why is it one of the vaccines required for health care providers? Is that so they don’t pass it to a young patient, rather than to protect the health care provider from their patients? Or is it to protect those people who won’t be among those who clear it without issue? I had to have it college due to being in a health field, and I assumed it was to protect me. 

While many adults clear Hep B, and at a rate higher than kids, it's certainly not all. Adults can have serious complications too, somewhere between 2 and 6% will develop chronic infections, which can lead to cirrhosis, liver cancer, and death.  In some ways, it's like covid, with everyone at risk, and a wide range of possible of outcomes, but the age impact is the inverse. 

Given that it's a disease that can be spread in health care settings, and settings like nursing homes and congregate for people with disabilities where people are receiving personal care, healthcare workers need to protect both themselves and their patients.  

I think it's odd that people panic about measles, which doesn't cause a single death in the US in most years, and yet don't vaccinate for a disease that kills thousands of people in the US every year.  

[wathe]

3 minutes ago, kand said:

I didn’t know this—that Hep B was not much risk to an adult and most adults clear it from their system without negative effect. If that’s the case, why is it one of the vaccines required for health care providers? Is that so they don’t pass it to a young patient, rather than to protect the health care provider from their patients? Or is it to protect those people who won’t be among those who clear it without issue? I had to have it college due to being in a health field, and I assumed it was to protect me. 

It's primarily to protect the HCW.  It also protects patients.  Most adults do clear it. But even if a small percentage don't clear it, it's still a lot of cases that would otherwise have been almost completely preventable with vaccine.  She quotes that 95% of those exposed do not develop an infection.  That means 5% do, and that's actually quite high (the risk of developing an HIV infection from a known positive medical needle-stick exposure is roughly 0.3%, by comparison, (without post-exposure prophylaxis)).  The other issue with Hep B is that up to 50% of those who do go on to develop chronic Hep B don't have a history of acute hepatitis - they didn't know they had it.

The numbers I've seen suggest that for acute hepatitis B, 70% of those infected are sub-clinical, and 30% develop icteric hepatitis (jaundice).  No, thanks - I'll take the shot.

[melmichigan]

I would suggest talking with your pediatrician.  Our pediatricians (husband and wife) were always very open to an alternative and/or delayed vaccination schedule.  They discussed it openly with us and we planned together.  Sometimes that meant I would be returning more than scheduled because we'd opt to wait a month or more between single dose vaccinations, and they knew that I would do the follow-up.  We would discuss what we might consider combining and what I wasn't comfortable with.  It needs to be a team effort.

As for hep b, people forget that babies that develop hep b as infants, through exposure from people that don't realize they have it as an example. When contracted before the age of 5 the majority develop chronic hep b. 25% of them die from liver failure or liver cancer as adults. We did not opt for hep b at birth, but our children did get it within the first 3 months.  Babies given hep b also develop immunity at a much higher rate than older children and adults. 95% will have immunity after the three doses.

I had a very good discussion with our pediatrician about HPV.  We opt to vaccine a little later with it, and in one dose, because of the recent results of clinical trials, which are showing one dose to be sufficient.  If information changes they can receive additional doses.

If your pediatrician isn't open to discussing vaccinations then find another pediatrician.  It's really that simple.

ETA:  This is a vaccine scheduler for the EU countries.  You can play around with it and compare schedules.

 

Edited December 15, 2020 by melmichigan

[MercyA]

I do admit that my views on vaccinations in the past have been entirely selfish. Rational and informed, but selfish. I'm not at the point of saying that I made wrong choices, but I will say that I did not have other people--other than my child--in mind.

This pandemic has me looking at all kinds of things in different ways. 

Edited December 15, 2020 by MercyA

[hopeallgoeswell]

Dr. Paul Thomas and Dr. Bob Sears both have books on vaccines that are very much for informed consent and unbiased.  Both are current with recent research on vaccines and long-term health outcomes.  The Highwire and Children's Health Defense are good websites for unbiased information and news.  Best wishes trying to find a pediatrician who will allow anyone vaccinated not exactly on the CDC schedule in his/her practice.  I have found general practitioners more open to alternative schedules that fit the child's risk profile.

[MercyA]

10 minutes ago, hopeallgoeswell said:

I have found general practitioners more open to alternative schedules that fit the child's risk profile.

For whatever reason, I've also found DO's to be the same. 

[RootAnn]

I agree that the HepB-at-birth is aimed at getting at least one shot into the high risk populations, especially geared toward babies who might not make it back for other early vaccinations.

As we were reliably consistent at getting in to our amazing pediatrician during the first two years to receive (and in some cases, space out,) vaccinations, my kids did not always get that first HepB in the hospital.

I find it necessary to do my own research on vaccinations to determine the best when & why for our family & community because the information routinely given is simplified and often not complete. (I understand this, but I've never been interested in the glossed over version - even of those small print privacy policies.) As with homeschooling, one size does not fit all, some circumstances change decisions, and sometimes it is necessary to follow a path that benefits the community at large when you would rather take the path less traveled for your family. 

[kokotg]

On 12/15/2020 at 1:02 AM, MercyA said:

I do admit that my views on vaccinations in the past have been entirely selfish. Rational and informed, but selfish. I'm not at the point of saying that I made wrong choices, but I will say that I did not have other people--other than my child--in mind.

This pandemic has me looking at all kinds of things in different ways. 

Yes. We did some delayed vaccinations--not selective, since they wound up with everything eventually--but we spaced things out, which I jusitifed because my kids were not in day care so were at very low risk for either getting or transmitting illnesses. It seemed like a reasonable choice, and my assorted peds were supportive. I'm not sure I'd say I have regrets, exactly....but I'd very likely make different decisions if I had a baby now. 

[Gobblygook]

I also spaced things out because we have a family history of allergies. Our ped is a friend from college so he is pretty flexible knowing that I will bring them in when needed.