Lecka Posted December 11, 2020 Share Posted December 11, 2020 It is a struggle for me to get time-on-task reading with my 12yo with autism. If I want him to spend 15 minutes *actually reading* -- well, it can take so long, with either digressions, an attitude, etc, etc. I would love to spend 30 minutes reading, taking turns reading out loud. It's more common to spend 45 minutes, have some good chatting about what we are reading, he does some good listening to me ----- but his actual time spend reading -- on a lot of days, it might be 5 minutes out of 45 minutes. This morning he did great and probably read, actually read, for 15 minutes. I would love to just be able to sit down with him for 30 minutes and know he will read 15 minutes! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Storygirl Posted December 11, 2020 Share Posted December 11, 2020 I get it! I still help DS16 with schoolwork, and half of the time is spent just getting him to work on it. It's so inefficient and makes things harder. I'm not requiring him to read with me any more, because the process of cooperation was so difficult that it diminished the benefits. His English teacher at school discouraged me from requiring reading for him, because it does tend to backfire. But during the middle school years, I required it, even though DS hated it. I think I used to alternate paragraphs, where I would read, then he would read. But we would have to stop often, so that I could explain inferences and sometimes vocabulary, so it never went smoothly. I think sometimes I would give up on trying to get him to read aloud and counted it good enough if he would listen to me. I could never get him to discuss things with me, so if you are getting some chatting, I think that counts for a lot! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterPan Posted December 12, 2020 Share Posted December 12, 2020 Ok, I can only tell you what works here, not saying it will get you what you think you want. So realistic and want might be different. -grade leveled text -that fits his language level -that is incredibly engaging (not too social, not too moralizing or dragging in other stuff) -that appeals to angles that interest him (controversy, curious stuff) -done as popcorn reading (alternating sentences, never more than sentences) -with pictures -at a consistent time each day -when already primed with food, good mood, pairing activities, etc. (ie. it's not the first compliance task of the day, more like the last in a successful day where he's already in mode to comply) -in a relaxing comfortable location -did I mention it might include access to motivators like donuts? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterPan Posted December 12, 2020 Share Posted December 12, 2020 We're using National Geographic's Reach texts. They're grade leveled, alternate fiction and nonfiction selections, highly visual, very interesting to my ds who enjoys science, and incredibly well written. I don't know what might fit Lecka's ds. I know it's great to use picture books, etc., but they're so random. A text is so PREDICTABLE. Same format, font, etc. so he can really just focus on reading. My ds enjoys politics, controversy, debates, so arguing over climate change and their political insertions is interesting to him. I think the analogue for Lecka's ds would be something that would hit him where he's at. But those are reasons the texts work for us. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterPan Posted December 12, 2020 Share Posted December 12, 2020 (edited) So I'm googling this a bit, just throwing out some terms that don't necessarily apply but might turn up something REALLY DIFFERENT from maybe whatever Lecka has tried. https://files.eric.ed.gov/fulltext/EJ1074053.pdf I'm having a hard time pulling out much that is direct, but it reminds me of some things. -reading is best as a life skill, in a real life context. So they mention it with tech, but this is a really good question whether he has or could have added to his world small *reasons* to read, things that would be within reach. -really hard to read what you don't understand. Technically you can, but it's not ideal. Before I started doing reading textbooks, I had ds read aloud everything on the page from hundreds of pages of language therapy worksheets. I was making sure he understood every word of what he was reading and getting language work at the same time, a two-fer. I think it could be a reasonable other way to approach this. Rather than saying reading has to be books, how about reading as part of worksheets and language learning? Or reading science or social studies or geography workbooks? But mainly language, can't go wrong with language. So if it takes my ds 3-5 minutes to read a worksheet and do it with me and I do 3-10 worksheets in a day, we just did a lot of reading, kwim? So when he sits down with a reading textbook, we have behavior/regulation, narrative language, but we've removed the question of language comprehension and the question of decoding/fluency. I think you could consider how many issues are complicating your reading and try to disentangle them so you're only targeting 1-2 reading strands at a time rather than the whole rope. https://dyslexiaida.org/scarboroughs-reading-rope-a-groundbreaking-infographic/ So you could determine whether you're working on fluency or vocabulary or narrative/story comprehension or behavior or language/syntax or behavior or what and isolate down these factors, looking for resources that have him reading but maybe reading with less complexity, where less of those strands are in play. So, for instance, if I wanted to target vocabulary and I made a page with the words and sample sentences and we read and discussed, we'd be reading but we'd have removed the narrative language, reduced syntactical complexity, etc. We'd be targeting less things. At that point, with the complexity of the task simplified, we'd like to see some discussion naturally occurring as a sign of engagement and comprehension. To me, that's something I look for as a sign that I've reduced it enough. And if that means my 12 yo is reading a 2nd grade reader, I DON'T CARE. But I didn't get there only by reducing the "reading" level. You may need to tear apart those strands and target just fluency or just syntax or just whatever before you pull it together. That article I linked seems to be implying some kids need a lot *longer* at these stages to get those things to happen. I think patience with reduced text is always good. As far as reduced text, not only would I consider worksheets, but also consider nontraditional things like comics, picture bibles that have a picture with a sentence under each picture, word books where he's only reading words, wordless books!!!, VIDEOS!!! If I'm targeting self regulation and behavior for reading, then there's no reason it can't be a video, a Reading Rainbow show, a wordless book, a small photo album you make together, etc. Though I say that and for me pairing activities and making demands is always the best way to get him primed to comply with a big ask. Edited December 12, 2020 by PeterPan 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterPan Posted December 12, 2020 Share Posted December 12, 2020 Mindwings has a book on text complexity. I'm assuming what I'm hitting on is explained in much better fashion in their book. They probably have some youtube videos or webinars on it. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterPan Posted December 12, 2020 Share Posted December 12, 2020 (edited) Or put another way, ds is still learning to read. If he's reading to learn, it's probably something brief and environmental. If I want him to "read" for the sake of connecting, I'm going to use an audiobook. He still has too much difficulty with too many of the parts of that strand for anything else to be realistic. Demanding it would up stress and end learning. His audiobook last night was Peter Pan btw. I assume I had read it to him several years ago, so I skipped through the intro to make it so he wouldn't *hear the title* and dismiss it without giving it a chance. He clearly enjoyed it because he stayed up crazy late, lol. I'm not saying this is where I WANT it to be. I'm just saying where it really is right now, given his mix. That is realistically what he can do with low stress, with high engagement, with positivity. And yes, I think the school system has this sort of guilt tripping where the teachers are required to push. I mean, it's not like it makes me look like a good teacher to have this be where he is. But I stand by it as something he can do in integrity. Our IEP says to get through a 4th gr reading curriculum this year, and we sorta started and sorta got sidetracked. He *can* in theory function at that level, but it's pretty stressful and needs to be done in small bits. Fortunately the curriculum I chose only has 80 lessons. But we aren't even that far into it, sigh. Ok, what about High Noon stuff? The term is slipping my mind, but high interest, low syntax and decoding level. That could work if you really want fiction. I have some. Ds just thrives on getting that *angle* to the material. He's just not social enough to be motivated by the hi-low fiction. Need hi-low NONfiction. They have that btw. Maybe try it? Edited December 12, 2020 by PeterPan 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lecka Posted December 12, 2020 Author Share Posted December 12, 2020 (edited) We are currently doing high interest shared reading. Special snacks he can only have at that time. I have just been doing the two Rowley Jefferson books that are nicer, easier books that go with Diary of a Wimpy Kid. My son has seen the Diary of a Wimpy Kid movie and likes it. We are doing Goosebumps.... he has loved Goosebumps for years at this point, and listens to them on audiobook (for whatever reason there are high-quality versions on YouTube) and he has watched the old tv show and the new movies. He has listened on audiobook to the book we’re doing now. And yes — everything has to be perfect! The stars must align! I think it’s really worthwhile — but I don’t know how long I can keep it up. I feel like if I don’t do it he just will not make progress in this area. His avoidance level I think is sufficient that — nobody else is realistically going to do it, apart from — every other issue that exists with working with kids who are delayed readers. It is just so hard! I always feel like we are so close to it just getting a little easier for him. Edited December 12, 2020 by Lecka Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lecka Posted December 12, 2020 Author Share Posted December 12, 2020 (edited) I have just taken a lot of time off — feeling like it was time for a break and to focus on enjoying books with low pressure.... Well — it’s better, it is, but it’s still hard.... I just don’t know. I think if I can stay consistent for a bit more time it will become a routine — but it is early and I never know if it will actually get easier or not. I go back and forth with just — the amount of time and exhaustion, and other things I’m NOT doing with that time and energy. Or, thinking time on task will pay off, there are many positive glimmers, it could get easier with a routine and becoming a bit easier..... On the bright side — there are so many books about Slappy. I don’t think we will ever run out. Edited December 12, 2020 by Lecka Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lecka Posted December 12, 2020 Author Share Posted December 12, 2020 For non-fiction reading — there are major vocabulary challenges with anything vaguely near his interest level. Just — major, major vocabulary challenges. It is very hard for him to learn non-fiction vocabulary words. It’s gotten better but — it is very hard for him for reading. He does better with fiction. He knows more words and he is better at being able to understand a word from context (which he is not great at — but he can do it some). With non-fiction it’s like — hard to get anywhere because of vocabulary. He does better with videos about non-fiction but that doesn’t mean he is learning vocabulary — but he can follow along anyway, if it’s the kind of thing where you can see what’s happening in the video (true for some things but not others). He does like animals too, all kinds of animals, but he is not interested in a lot of non-fiction topics. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lecka Posted December 12, 2020 Author Share Posted December 12, 2020 He likes The Who Would Win books by Jerry Pallotta, these are books about a pretend match-up between two animals, with comparisons and fun facts..... But these are hard for him. I could pick out a sentence for him to read here and there, but for the most part the vocabulary is just a problem in every way. I do think I should remind him about these, though, and just see what he would pick. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterPan Posted December 12, 2020 Share Posted December 12, 2020 27 minutes ago, Lecka said: For non-fiction reading — there are major vocabulary challenges with anything vaguely near his interest level. Just — major, major vocabulary challenges. It is very hard for him to learn non-fiction vocabulary words. It’s gotten better but — it is very hard for him for reading. He does better with fiction. He knows more words and he is better at being able to understand a word from context (which he is not great at — but he can do it some). With non-fiction it’s like — hard to get anywhere because of vocabulary. So that kind of goes back to the idea of using language workbooks to increase he's reading. You'll get fluency, build vocabulary, and you aren't mingling in with all that narrative language. If you want fluency, I think it's ok to work on that in isolation, not in the context of narrative. If you look at people working on reading, they go SHORT. Rasinski says to use poetry and songs. I'm suggesting language worksheets. Short stories. Books are not short, so you get these big muddles. I'm not familiar with everything you're reading, but maybe they are conducive to short, stand alone readings? We did DogMan. Now that was not something he would pick up for pleasure, even though he could. Too much hassle, not going to do it. He's more likely to read something SHORT because it GETS HIM something he wants. (knowledge, access, whatever) This is advice I was given, to be open to *short* stuff. The people working with him via tele from the autism school use high interest (through his perseverative interest) short material like say a web page about a topic. https://www.proedinc.com/Downloads/31614SamplePgs.pdf Here's a sample from a workbook on word retrieval I was just looking at. 23 minutes ago, Lecka said: He likes The Who Would Win books by Jerry Pallotta, these are books about a pretend match-up between two animals, with comparisons and fun facts..... But these are hard for him. I could pick out a sentence for him to read here and there, but for the most part the vocabulary is just a problem in every way. I'm pretty sure we did those as read alouds! And yes they were wonderful! But why this drive to ask him to read books? What does it get him? Where do you see this going when he's 15-20? You want reading as a leisure skill? What do you think he would actually legit want to read? I'm not saying he won't, just that I think it's really good to ponder what that looks like. Maybe he would enjoy word searches? That's reading! That's vocabulary and word retrieval, because they typically have themes. That's leisure. I don't know, that's just something I think about, where this is going. Maybe he'd like to be able to read life skill level recipes? https://www.proedinc.com/Products/20855/cooking-to-learn-combo-all-3-books.aspx Have you thought about the Cooking to Learn series? It's reading, it teaches the vocabulary, and it builds life skills. My ds really enjoyed book 1!!! We really need to get the others and do them. They are AWESOME. And then the reading is short and something that gets him something he wants. That's my thing. I can't fix that he isn't engaging with "books", but I can make sure that he can read fluently enough to do the reading he needs for life skills. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterPan Posted December 12, 2020 Share Posted December 12, 2020 https://www.amazon.com/Poems-Building-Reading-Skills-Professor/dp/1425806767/ref=sr_1_3?dchild=1&keywords=poems+for+building+reading+skills+level+2+rasinski&qid=1607782705&sr=8-3 Here's an example of Rasinski's Poetry for Building Reading skills. It's reading, but it's short stuff. Weaves in some phonics, word study, vocabulary/comprehension, etc. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lecka Posted December 12, 2020 Author Share Posted December 12, 2020 (edited) For whatever reason — his narrative language is stronger than his vocabulary. He has gotten to where he has good everyday life vocabulary, but any less-common words are harder for him in every way, and he does not retain a lot of vocabulary words. He retains some vocabulary words — but it’s a lot of work for him to learn and retain the most basic content-area vocabulary words. And then he often doesn’t retain-retain them — he can be reminded and not be starting over from 0, but it’s hard to say he has mastered much content-area vocabulary. For topics he is interested in, he does know more vocabulary words, but it’s like — he had to really like a topic in order to manage to learn the vocabulary words. He can talk about what “franchise” he likes between some different movie characters, because he watches YouTube videos about that. But then with other topics he would never know a vocabulary word like that. He knows what an “origin story” is for a superhero and read that correctly in context in a Rowley Jefferson book (with kids talking about favorite superhero’s). That is usually a vocabulary level he would not begin to know. Its hard to explain. I just know it’s an issue for non-fiction! But he definitely does better with fiction and narrative language. I think this is just his profile, to some extent. Or a combination of his profile and his personality. Edited December 12, 2020 by Lecka 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterPan Posted December 12, 2020 Share Posted December 12, 2020 It's probably specific to his profile and mix of autism. I've read some studies of them using alzheimer's medications with ASD to get a bump in that. It just is what it is. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lecka Posted December 13, 2020 Author Share Posted December 13, 2020 I am definitely also trying to reach a goal of reading he needs to do for life, not a goal of reading a book. He has some high-interest characters that are books, though. With shorter things -- he has an attitude that I should just read it to him, and also, he is just less interested. A lot of it is just interest and attitude, though. He can also use youtube well enough that for a lot of things -- he can pick a video to watch, and that is fine. It's just not -- increasing his reading AT ALL. He is someone who could/can easily read extremely little, and then he is not going to improve. He did do well yesterday! He actually did really well -- well enough for me to think -- WHY does he make it so hard? But I think sometimes he thinks things are hard, and then that is hard to overcome. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lecka Posted December 13, 2020 Author Share Posted December 13, 2020 He just did a nice job again, with only minor complaining. I so hope we are getting into a routine! I think reading level, support level, etc, are in a good place... I skim ahead and make sure I read any harder parts. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lecka Posted December 14, 2020 Author Share Posted December 14, 2020 https://files.eric.ed.gov/fulltext/EJ1053794.pdf This is what I’m working on now.... he can read almost every word accurately. He has comprehension because he has listened to the audiobooks. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterPan Posted December 14, 2020 Share Posted December 14, 2020 (edited) There's a lot of research like that, sure. I read some early research that really burst my bubble on the whole "late but then becomes this proficient reader" stuff people say. The research shows people go through the stages of reading acquisition and development, irrespective of when they start, meaning starting later is just a later start. The volume has to happen to get them through the stages. So yes volume matters, but I think social thinking, frustration tolerance, etc. also matter. I mean, this is the thing I keep hitting on too, why isn't he "a reader", how do I win on this, is it my fault, etc. etc. And I read these books by teachers (Book Whisperer, etc.) that are like you get the topic that fits, enough consistent effort, boom. I think maybe there are things we can't quantify that are making it hard. My ds does so well when it's popcorn reading, high interest (REALLY high interest), with great pictures. That's his sweet spot right now. So I guess my best thinking is that, with so many factors involved and such a complex disability (language plus self regulation plus social thinking plus plus), that doing more at that sweet spot, once you find it, is the safe way to get that moving forward. I never assume my ds has comprehension just because he listens to audiobooks. He used to memorize them. I read my ds verses from the Bible and it becomes clear there is this drop in comprehension, even just one verse at a time. It has really upended my theory/assumption that I just needed to get him "reading" and it would come together. He doesn't understand what he's reading, which is why he's not reading it. In theory he can read the Bible, but that's just where he's at. I had a friend years ago whose dd had Downs. That dd would sit in church doing word searches. At the time I thought it was odd, but now I look at it from a language perspective and realize THAT was her Bible! That was the language of the church that the person could understand and interact with. She was learning all the words for a story, interacting with a theme. It was brilliant. I was an avid reader as a child, but I've been trying to figure out what I was reading, whether I was reading about things with social engagement. I did go through an exploratory age in middle school where I read (smut) stuff I shouldn't have been into. Even then, I think I was reading so far over my social thinking that it was exploratory. I read mysteries. But my fiction really petered off, and now I tend to read on topics, very seldom fiction. But you think about it that all our vision of what it means to "read" is pushing fiction at people with social thinking deficits, people who, the more they get into it, maybe aren't going to CARE. I don't CARE about someone's social narrative. Not in conversation, not in real life, not in a book. And I kept thinking oh you're just not reading literature because you're busy, because you're always reading. But I don't think that's it. I think I'm me. So I keep asking myself, what does this honestly look like for ds? What would Book Whisperer say, kwim? And I've tried some things that miss. It's just what I think about. Edited December 14, 2020 by PeterPan 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterPan Posted December 14, 2020 Share Posted December 14, 2020 Another thing. Book Whisperer was swooping in at 6th grade and having success with her students, even severe strugglers. But our kids developmentally might not be functioning at that spot! My ds certainly isn't. Across the board he's much closer to 4th. And college. But 4th. That's his reality and it fits the 2.5-3 years behind thing that we get told any time any professional assesses him. So if that readiness to blossom is partly developmental, I think it could happen later too. I feel bad thinking about that, because I know the years are going to run out! I was doing math last night about what we could get done if we set some goals (x number of Bible verses a week, 1 a day from Proverbs, etc.). He functions so young that you feel like you have forever, and yet I know we don't. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lecka Posted December 14, 2020 Author Share Posted December 14, 2020 My son is closer to 1st-2nd and I would like to get him to 3rd. He does have decent comprehension of the books he likes. It's not perfect comprehension -- but he definitely understands the overall plot and things with the main character. Fiction and some social understanding is a relative strength for him. It's not his big weakness. I get this feedback from others as well, I get feedback that people are impressed with his comprehension compared to other kids at his level. He does not read as well as a lot of kids who are -- kids doing better academically but who have more struggles with social thinking. It's not that he doesn't have struggles with social thinking, but for right now -- that is not an issue with this level of book. We have been working on comprehension for this level for at least 2 years, since it has been an interest for him for at least 2 years. I wouldn't say he had great comprehension 2 years ago, it was more just -- he liked the monsters or whatever -- but he is solid now. He can even recognize sarcasm sometimes. Not every time, and it is pretty obvious, but -- it used to not even be explainable to him. I think at a certain point -- we have to just go with what our kids are good at and appreciate it, and I would say that is what I am doing with this. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lecka Posted December 15, 2020 Author Share Posted December 15, 2020 My son wants to earn money to buy a Switch game -- we are going to pay him $0.25 per page, and I pulled out some books with a lot less words per page. Will see how it goes! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lecka Posted December 15, 2020 Author Share Posted December 15, 2020 https://www.amazon.com/Attack-Zombie-Rabbids-Invasion/dp/1481460668 Good news -- he read this book out loud and has $8.25 towards the video game he wants. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterPan Posted December 16, 2020 Share Posted December 16, 2020 4 hours ago, Lecka said: https://www.amazon.com/Attack-Zombie-Rabbids-Invasion/dp/1481460668 Good news -- he read this book out loud and has $8.25 towards the video game he wants. This is going to get $$ fast! Hahaha 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lecka Posted December 16, 2020 Author Share Posted December 16, 2020 (edited) He got up to $11.50! My husband downloaded the game he wanted when he came home from work. My son was short $7. (Technically he owes us $7, but we might or might not take it from likely Christmas money.) I don’t know what we will do tomorrow? I don’t know if there will be anything else he wants to buy, lol. I might be getting him some kind of treat from the store. Or he might not need a treat. Will just have to see! Edited December 16, 2020 by Lecka Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lecka Posted December 16, 2020 Author Share Posted December 16, 2020 Maybe he will be willing to do “first read, then mom plays the video game with you.” Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lecka Posted December 28, 2020 Author Share Posted December 28, 2020 Things are going better! More time spent actually reading, less time spent complaining about reading. It’s still baby steps but there’s been a lot of progress! 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kanin Posted December 30, 2020 Share Posted December 30, 2020 On 12/28/2020 at 11:27 AM, Lecka said: Things are going better! More time spent actually reading, less time spent complaining about reading. It’s still baby steps but there’s been a lot of progress! Awesome!!! Are you still paying per page? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lecka Posted December 30, 2020 Author Share Posted December 30, 2020 No. But If he won’t cooperate with me, he won’t get a turn on the tv until after he has cooperated. But he’s generally cooperative now, to where that comes up about 25% of the time. There is nothing he wants now, for money, anyways. It’s not something that he would always care about. Right now he’s like — he doesn’t think he is being tortured. He knows it won’t be torture. It’s not like he wants to do it, but he doesn’t think it is the worst thing that could possibly happen to him. He is often like this with any new thing I want him to do, but — it is getting better as he gets older. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lecka Posted December 30, 2020 Author Share Posted December 30, 2020 He does get snacks, too, if he wants. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lecka Posted January 8, 2021 Author Share Posted January 8, 2021 Two good days in a row! He picked to try Dragon Masters again, and that is going well 🙂. They are an easier book than Goosebumps 🙂. I read him all the Dragon Masters a few years ago — now there are ten more books out in the series! Now they are a good level and I’m glad he would give them a try again. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lecka Posted March 5, 2021 Author Share Posted March 5, 2021 And..... we have a good routine. Back to Goosebumps. He is reading 2 pages and thinking that is fair — it works for me. On most days, no fuss. On some days — I am still needing to say I will take away electronics for some period of time. On most days I talk to him about a time (coming up in 10-15 minutes) and he keeps to it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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