Finding balance between 'passion' and 'aptitude'

[Sneezyone]

I am struggling with guiding my oldest and would love some advice from those who've BTDT. This kiddo has an abundance of energy and physical talent and has had success in math. She struggles with memorization for the sake of memorization and this affects her performance in science, even though the conceptual understanding is there. COVID has robbed her of the chance to do the hands on work that allows her to shine. She has expressed interest in medicine but is, on paper, much better suited to engineering where FinAid is more plentiful. How do you advise this student? Thus far, my approach has been to look for smaller, more nurturing campuses that would be willing to develop her talents in either of these areas but she has insisted on some geographic restrictions (beaches and sun) that make this hard. I want to be supportive of her dreams, at the same time, I'm a realist. She will probably end up in the mid/high 600s for math and mid-high 500s for English on the SAT in June. We haven't been able to retake the SAT since COVID.

Edited December 9, 2020 by Sneezyone

[Junie]

Has she considered biomedical engineering?  That might be a good field for her skill set.

[Momto6inIN]

It has been our experience that the big money is not given to students who are looking into competitive majors like engineering and computer science. I think the good schools figure the students who are choosing them for engineering are going to choose them and pay tuition regardless, so they hand out their scholarship money elsewhere. Perhaps a school that isn't as well known for engineering might give good scholarships for engineers? I don't know?

I think it's also very realistic to expect that her focus and major might change once she's actually in school. Maybe she'll love engineering courses, and maybe she won't. Maybe she'll do well in courses outside her aptitude and maybe she won't. If it was me, I'd probably advise her to shoot for what she would love to do but to have a backup plan in case that doesn't work out the way she thinks it will.

[Sneezyone]

3 hours ago, Junie said:

Has she considered biomedical engineering?  That might be a good field for her skill set.

That's where I'm encouraging her to look. I'm not sure if it will stick or how much to push, if at all.

ETA: I guess I'm looking for some out of the box schools or career fields/majors that she can look into.

Edited December 9, 2020 by Sneezyone

[Sneezyone]

1 hour ago, Momto6inIN said:

It has been our experience that the big money is not given to students who are looking into competitive majors like engineering and computer science. I think the good schools figure the students who are choosing them for engineering are going to choose them and pay tuition regardless, so they hand out their scholarship money elsewhere. Perhaps a school that isn't as well known for engineering might give good scholarships for engineers? I don't know?

I think it's also very realistic to expect that her focus and major might change once she's actually in school. Maybe she'll love engineering courses, and maybe she won't. Maybe she'll do well in courses outside her aptitude and maybe she won't. If it was me, I'd probably advise her to shoot for what she would love to do but to have a backup plan in case that doesn't work out the way she thinks it will.

There are a couple of HBCUs I'm encouraging her to consider in her preferred geographic area that have eng. programs as well as applying for NSBE scholarships and military kid ones. She'd end up being on the upper end of their statistical pools, I think. I was also thinking about a smaller liberal arts school that would be more supportive of some kind of interdisciplinary thing but don't know of any in her preferred regions so...yeah...Hendrix came to mind as we have family there but she'd absolutely hate the area. It's also stupid expensive. I don't have an engineering background and don't know much about the landscape in that regard. She doesn't really NEED scholarships but it would help reduce our OOP costs and that's always nice. The thing is, she loves her tech drawing and design classes now and aces them. She just wants to try stuff. I'm *mostly* ok with that. She attends a large, comprehensive high school that allows room for that. Still, DH and I have enough money to pay for one shot at college for each of them, not a circuitous route. She may end up with a few college credits going in for her language and math classes, but not much. So I feel a certain pressure to help her move in a direction vs. casting a wide net.

Edited December 9, 2020 by Sneezyone

[EKS]

My son went to a project based engineering school that has biomedical engineering as one of its majors (WPI).  He thrived in the hands-on environment.  I'd look to see if you can find schools like this that might also satisfy her other requirements.

[chiguirre]

28 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

That's where I'm encouraging her to look. I'm not sure if it will stick or how much to push, if at all.

From personal experience, you can teach them the skills to research a job, a major and a university, but you can't steer the decision. My dd is finishing hs with her AA so she would need to declare a major immediately and she's not 100% sure what she wants to do. The most likely path is a business information systems degree. That was her original plan along with actuarial science (which might work as a major for your dd if she likes math and economic modeling). Now, she's leaning more toward actually working in IT so it might make sense to do CS instead, or even software engineering. She even threw out the "maybe I should study medicine" bit a couple of months ago but that idea has floated away into the ether. I think it's just the stress of having to make a major decision with limited real life experience of the choices. In the end, my dd decided to enlist and get some real life experience (and the chance to travel and the benefits) before she has to choose. 

Could your dd try out a couple of classes at your local CC over the summer? That might help narrow down the possibilities. If she doesn't want to risk her college (permanent) GPA, she could do a MOOC instead.

[Sneezyone]

1 minute ago, chiguirre said:

From personal experience, you can teach them the skills to research a job, a major and a university, but you can't steer the decision. My dd is finishing hs with her AA so she would need to declare a major immediately and she's not 100% sure what she wants to do. The most likely path is a business information systems degree. That was her original plan along with actuarial science (which might work as a major for your dd if she likes math and economic modeling). Now, she's leaning more toward actually working in IT so it might make sense to do CS instead, or even software engineering. She even threw out the "maybe I should study medicine" bit a couple of months ago but that idea has floated away into the ether. I think it's just the stress of having to make a major decision with limited real life experience of the choices. In the end, my dd decided to enlist and get some real life experience (and the chance to travel and the benefits) before she has to choose. 

Could your dd try out a couple of classes at your local CC over the summer? That might help narrow down the possibilities. If she doesn't want to risk her college (permanent) GPA, she could do a MOOC instead.

Yes, thanks! These are similar concerns. I know she is looking periodically but she doesn't know what she doesn't know (and neither do I). She has a tendency to flit from thing to thing, usually coming back to my original advice (sigh). She's  mentioned medicine and business by terms. The thing is, I think she'd be bored out of her gourd without human interaction. She's an experiential learner at heart, always has been. My first thought for her is/was architectural engineering. She'd be amazing on site! But, because I mentioned it first...well...it'll be the last thing she comes 'round to. She says she wants to stick with her current high school plan and take more technical design/construction classes. The CC here has some hoops that high school students have to jump through but I will investigate that option. I don't think it's possible for next summer b/c there's at least one 'getting to know college class' that they are required to take. I'll definitely check. Maybe we will do some bio labs at home this summer so she can get a feel for what she missed.

[Sneezyone]

25 minutes ago, EKS said:

My son went to a project based engineering school that has biomedical engineering as one of its majors (WPI).  He thrived in the hands-on environment.  I'd look to see if you can find schools like this that might also satisfy her other requirements.

Thanks. I just looked it up and they have a pre-college summer program. Maybe they will host it next summer? It's especially hard to investigate when you can't actually go anywhere to look around!

[mathnerd]

Neuroscience and Neurobiology are two areas where 2 of my family members who had a BS in Electrical Engineering ended up specializing in (PhD and post doc). So, if she is excelling in both math and hands-on science, this could be something she looks into. 

[Sneezyone]

1 hour ago, mathnerd said:

Neuroscience and Neurobiology are two areas where 2 of my family members who had a BS in Electrical Engineering ended up specializing in (PhD and post doc). So, if she is excelling in both math and hands-on science, this could be something she looks into. 

Thanks, I’ll suggest it to her and then back away...slowly. lol.

[daijobu]

I'm recommending you or your dd read books by Cal Newport, including How to Be a High School Superstar and So Good They Can't Ignore You.  

I'll warn you in advance that he's a critic of the "Find Your Passion" ethos, so If you are married to this idea, then you won't want to read his books.  

(Also: medicine requires copious amounts of memorization.)

[katilac]

On 12/9/2020 at 2:02 PM, Sneezyone said:

 She's  mentioned medicine and business by terms. The thing is, I think she'd be bored out of her gourd without human interaction.  

Are these two sentences directly related, or more general commentary that she needs lots of human interaction? What jobs are you thinking won't require much interaction? 

On 12/10/2020 at 9:43 PM, daijobu said:

I'm recommending you or your dd read books by Cal Newport, including How to Be a High School Superstar and So Good They Can't Ignore You.  

I'll warn you in advance that he's a critic of the "Find Your Passion" ethos, so If you are married to this idea, then you won't want to read his books.  

(Also: medicine requires copious amounts of memorization.)

I think it's even more important to read some of his stuff if you lean heavily towards 'find  you passion' and he does have a blog for shorter reads. This entry is super short but makes two of the most important points. 

[Lori D.]

No advice, just hugs and sympathy.

Neither DS here knew what they wanted to do upon high school graduation, despite plenty of career exploration and career testing, and going repeatedly to our homeschool group's annual all-day career event.

DS#1 finally realized he wanted to get a Mechanical Engineering degree (which, honestly, I've known since he was a pre-schooler that he's a natural at math and engineering) -- after earning an AAS in Digital Filmmaking, and then a BA in a general humanities area (he loved philosophy and theology courses). We all heaved a heavy sigh when he knew he needed to go back to college and get that MechE degree, as it was going to be costly and lengthy (since he couldn't manage the 18-units per semester while working part time). However, he is now just 2 semesters away from completing that BS in Mech. Eng., and will be turning 29yo when he does. A late bloomer, who finally has hound his calling. 😉 

DS#2 had to do a variety of things to finally find his niche -- 2 years of a 3-year AAS in Interpretation of the Deaf, then realized that's not what he wanted to do. Then working full time for a year. Then a 9-month commitment with AmeriCorps doing trail conservation with a partner program -- which led to wildland firefighting, which he loves. He just finished his fourth season.

I guess that's just to say that some people need to get some real life experience under the belt, or dabble in a lot of different college areas, before they find their niche. Which is NOT what a parent wants to hear, lol. But I share this because looking at the big picture, it IS encouraging -- the DSs over whom I fretted over all through high school  just needed some life experience, trying out various things, and TIME to get themselves sorted. 😉 

Hoping it will not be such a long and winding road for your DD, but just encouraging you that even if it is, she is a smart young woman, and she is bound to land in a perfect spot for her, in her own timing. Hugs for you while you watch that process unfold! 😄 Warmest regards, Lori D.

Edited December 13, 2020 by Lori D.

[Sneezyone]

2 hours ago, katilac said:

Are these two sentences directly related, or more general commentary that she needs lots of human interaction? What jobs are you thinking won't require much interaction? 

I think it's even more important to read some of his stuff if you lean heavily towards 'find  you passion' and he does have a blog for shorter reads. This entry is super short but makes two of the most important points. 

I was thinking/typing out loud, sorry. She’s mentioned the more human stuff but her academic talents seem to lie in other directions.

I know medicine requires tons of memorization which is why I don’t think it’s a good fit for her. She doesn’t memorize in math. She understands how it works and can build upon each new bit of info. Science has never been that way for her. 
 

I’m not especially keen on being passionate about your work but I do hope to steer her toward something at the intersection of joy and lucre. She has lifestyle goals and expectations that would not work with some jobs/careers.

Edited December 13, 2020 by Sneezyone

[Sneezyone]

40 minutes ago, Lori D. said:

No advice, just hugs and sympathy.

Neither DS here knew what they wanted to do upon high school graduation, despite plenty of career exploration and career testing, and going repeatedly to our homeschool group's annual all-day career event.

DS#1 finally realized he wanted to get a Mechanical Engineering degree (which, honestly, I've known since he was a pre-schooler that he's a natural at math and engineering) -- after earning an AAS in Digital Filmmaking, and then a BA in a general humanities area (he loved philosophy and theology courses). We all heaved a heavy sigh when he knew he needed to go back to college and get that MechE degree, as it was going to be costly and lengthy (since he couldn't manage the 18-units per semester while working part time). However, he is now just 2 semesters away from completing that BS in Mech. Eng., and will be turning 29yo when he does. A late bloomer, who finally has hound his calling. 😉 

DS#2 had to do a variety of things to finally find his niche -- 2 years of a 3-year AAS in Interpretation of the Deaf, then realized that's not what he wanted to do. Then working full time for a year. Then a 9-month commitment with AmeriCorps doing trail conservation with a partner program -- which led to wildland firefighting, which he loves. He just finished his fourth season.

I guess that's just to say that some people need to get some real life experience under the belt, or dabble in a lot of different college areas, before they find their niche. Which is NOT what a parent wants to hear, lol. But I share this because looking at the big picture, it IS encouraging -- the DSs over whom I fretted over all through high school  just needed some life experience, trying out various things, and TIME to get themselves sorted. 😉 

Hoping it will not be such a long and winding road for your DD, but just encouraging you that even if it is, she is a smart young woman, and she is bound to land in a perfect spot for her, in her own timing. Hugs for you while you watch that process unfold! 😄 Warmest regards, Lori D.

Thanks. Gah!! You’re probably right. There are some time constraints on the GI Bill that she has, 10 yrs post HS graduation, so I do hope she’ll take a less circuitous route. My kiddo sounds like your DS#1. Every time she wanders off to try things, she comes right back to my initial recommendations. Maybe I will try one last time with reverse psychology. If I say psychologist and PE teacher enough times she might come back ‘round to math. Lol.

[katilac]

Before my kids went off to college, I spent a lot of time comparing gen ed and major requirements in great detail, so that we knew when they could change their minds with no great loss in classes. Sometimes it's very surprising - some BS degrees have more crossover with certain BA degrees than they do with other BS degrees, and vice versa. 

This obviously varies a lot by school, but it was one factor we looked at when choosing schools. If a school had several majors they were likely to be in interested in if they changed their minds, that was a plus. Less onerous gen ed requirements, and/or gen ed requirements that had a fair amount of crossover, were also a plus. 

Some schools lost a lot of points because changing your major, even just 2 or 3 semesters in, was practically impossible without adding at least one full semester (even doing heavy schedules). 

Some schools lost a lot of points because they had very onerous gen ed requirements, with very little wiggle room for the occasional 'just because' class. This is something that can be done well, but usually isn't. 

When she gets down to a short list, it's worth doing a pretty deep dive into the advising department. Good advisors are worth their weight in textbooks, particularly to students who may want to double major or change their major. Really good and invested advisors will go to bat for their students by requesting a substitution here and there. 

[regentrude]

For a student who struggles with memorization for memorization's sake, medicine would be the absolutely last thing because it's the field with the largest amount of memorization. But you know that.
If she is math and science minded, why not begin in a field where she has aptitude and leave the door open for a major change?
I met with a lot of prospective students, and it is one thing I keep emphasizing: you can just get started and change major, you're not signing your soul away. I often have students who cannot decide between physics and engineering, but when you look at the curriculum, the entire first year consists of identical coursework with the exception of a one credit hour course that is department specific.
Also, students do not have to be premedical undergrads to be successful in med school. If she is really interested in medicine and still wants to do this, a different major can make her stand out among all the life science applicants (one of our physics graduates went to med school).

Maybe looking through that lens can take some pressure off to make the "right" decision that sets the path for the next forty years of her life - because really, it doesn't. Often, students discover their passion while at college - they may come across something they did not know existed.

 

Edited December 15, 2020 by regentrude

[Sneezyone]

On 12/13/2020 at 4:17 PM, katilac said:

Before my kids went off to college, I spent a lot of time comparing gen ed and major requirements in great detail, so that we knew when they could change their minds with no great loss in classes. Sometimes it's very surprising - some BS degrees have more crossover with certain BA degrees than they do with other BS degrees, and vice versa. 

This obviously varies a lot by school, but it was one factor we looked at when choosing schools. If a school had several majors they were likely to be in interested in if they changed their minds, that was a plus. Less onerous gen ed requirements, and/or gen ed requirements that had a fair amount of crossover, were also a plus. 

Some schools lost a lot of points because changing your major, even just 2 or 3 semesters in, was practically impossible without adding at least one full semester (even doing heavy schedules). 

Some schools lost a lot of points because they had very onerous gen ed requirements, with very little wiggle room for the occasional 'just because' class. This is something that can be done well, but usually isn't. 

When she gets down to a short list, it's worth doing a pretty deep dive into the advising department. Good advisors are worth their weight in textbooks, particularly to students who may want to double major or change their major. Really good and invested advisors will go to bat for their students by requesting a substitution here and there. 

Thank you, this is really helpful! Right now, appropriately, her list is 20-30 schools. When she whittles it down next fall, this is something I will do with her.

[Sneezyone]

24 minutes ago, regentrude said:

For a student who struggles with memorization for memorization's sake, medicine would be the absolutely last thing because it's the field with the largest amount of memorization. But you know that.
If she is math and science minded, why not begin in a field where she has aptitude and leave the door open for a major change?
I met with a lot of prospective students, and it is one thing I keep emphasizing: you can just get started and change major, you're not signing your soul away. I often have students who cannot decide between physics and engineering, but when you look at the curriculum, the entire first year consists of identical coursework with the exception of a one credit hour course that is department specific.
Also, students do not have to be premedical undergrads to be successful in med school. If she is really interested in medicine and still wants to do this, a different major can make her stand out among all the life science applicants (one of our physics graduates went to med school).

Maybe looking through that lens can take some pressure off to make the "right" decision that sets the path for the next forty years of her life - because really, it doesn't. Often, students discover their passion while at college - they may come across something they did not know existed.

 

Thanks, yeah, medicine would not be my choIce at all. Coupled with Katilac’s suggestion, this gives me a better sense of what I can do to facilitate some decision-making without being too prescriptive.

[kbutton]

 

On 12/13/2020 at 2:46 PM, Sneezyone said:

I was thinking/typing out loud, sorry. She’s mentioned the more human stuff but her academic talents seem to lie in other directions.

I know medicine requires tons of memorization which is why I don’t think it’s a good fit for her. She doesn’t memorize in math. She understands how it works and can build upon each new bit of info. Science has never been that way for her. 

I’m not especially keen on being passionate about your work but I do hope to steer her toward something at the intersection of joy and lucre. She has lifestyle goals and expectations that would not work with some jobs/careers.

I like it that you worked in the word lucre, lol! 

A couple of suggestions that are medical but people-y and requires energy and physical talent--physical therapy or prosthetist. PT would have overlap with medical classes, but I think the parts that are very specific to what you'd do on the job would be used while you're memorizing or the using would reinforce it. If it's at all an interest, it would be worth seeing if PT school is like med school where your undergrad work doesn't have to be biology (as regentrude pointed out). 

Prosthetist--I am not sure what the requirements are, but actual schools for it are few and far between last I knew. It's very hands-on. I suspect salary is closely linked to productivity. An interest in up and coming technology helps. (I have an extended family member that makes prosthetics.)

My DH and some of his kin are people that tend to blend physical talent with people skills, and school is sort of the thing they do to get there. It's a hoop. The passion is totally in what that hoop jumping lets them do and the path to it is, at best, tolerable. 

[MamaSprout]

Engineering has become something of a "pre-professional" degree. I've seen several schools offer an "engineering for other things" degree.

I know engineering grads who have gone on to both law school and medical school and are doing really well for themselves. We've told our dd to start there. Regardless, it's usually easier to transfer out of engineering than into it.