Algebra in 5th grade

[drjuliadc]

My Bulgarian friend told me she they started Algebra in 5th grade there.  She is 43 now.  She came to the US as a college athlete, married an American and stayed. She said college was very easy because it was more like what she had for high school in Bulgaria. She was not in a mathy major and was speaking in general, not specifically about math. She just gave that one thing as a specific example.

I felt very strongly at the time that they were spending way too much time on arithmetic in grade school/middle school here. I am 55 and we didn’t start algebra until 9th grade back then. I know they have compressed it somewhat now, but not as early as algebra in 5th grade.

Does anyone know if this “way ahead of us” phenomenon is typical of European countries?  I have heard that the math education is much better in Russia for example, but I don’t know any specifics.

My cousin has been in the UK for a few years for her job and has children approximately the age of mine, 5-9, and she thinks the education is better there. I only spoke to her father though, and not that long about it.

When I asked my Bulgarian friend why she thought America had such an advantage considering our weak education system, she said that she thought it just hadn’t caught up to us yet.

I appreciate her perspective because, besides being very intelligent, she is fluent in 5 languages and her job is related to that, so she travels extensively for her job. I think she has more of a bird’s eye view because of that.

 

[Not_a_Number]

I think it was standard in Eastern Europe at the time, although I believe they've kind of dumped that education system now and have done more "American style" stuff, much to their detriment. I got to Canada when I was 11, and I found math all review until maybe grade 10, so I would believe her. 

2 minutes ago, drjuliadc said:

I felt very strongly at the time that they were spending way too much time on arithmetic in grade school/middle school here. I am 55 and we didn’t start algebra until 9th grade back then. I know they have compressed it somewhat now, but not as early as algebra in 5th grade.

I started "proper" algebra with DD8 last year, when she was in 2nd grade, but we used algebraic ideas from when we started doing math. I'm currently doing the same thing with DD4 -- for instance, all of my equations have two sides, and one side may be an unknown: I basically never write things like

4 + 7 = 

for my kids. (It also means I start on equations where the calculation is on the "wrong" side very early.) 

DD8 is currently in third grade and can do algebraic manipulations better than most of my college kids could back when I taught college calculus. She's definitely a gifted kid, so it's not just that we started early, but I'm absolutely sure it helped. 

One of the problems with starting algebra early in the US is that they seem to want to do THE SAME THING at an earlier age instead of treating the earlier work as simply preparation for the later work. So when I say I'm doing "algebraic reasoning" at age 4, well, we're obviously not solving anything using algebraic manipulations, merely setting up the dominoes that will later help us ease into actual algebra. I find that giving kids' brains a chance to get used to the ideas is as important as anything else. 

[drjuliadc]

Now that you say that, I remember that she said they were adopting more of an American system there and she rolled her eyes. What a bad idea. Although maybe America can retain their advantage if everyone else’s education sucks too. Haha.

I would like to expose my kids to higher math concepts earlier too, but I’m not sure how.  I’m sure you can do it though. Remember, I’m the one who forgot all the math. Hey, I wasn’t using it.

My kids appear to be in the gifted range too, although I would want to expose them to higher math even if they weren’t.  I would also bet money they aren’t as mathematically gifted as someone’s child who teaches at AOPS. 

All four of them love math so far, but they might have been brainwashed by me telling them I love math. You can still forget it from disuse even if you loved it.

I will have to try to contact the mom who was running the math circle here, although she was definitely in Tiger Mom territory and had her kids do Kumon when they were young. I am not very pushy. That is why I can’t do Tiger mom things.  I just like to be efficient.  I like to use leverage, not just sheer will.

They used beast academy for younger kids in the math circle. Her husband is a mathematician and ran the older kids part of the math circle.  He used Briliant.org.

We were going to do math circle, but COVID happened and it isn’t running. I did order the beast guides for second grade in a Black Friday spree. They weren’t on sale, but they were in my list so I just threw them in with the things that were on sale.

I personally do not like puzzles, or to puzzle through things, so I am not sure Beast will be a hit.

 

[Drama Llama]

What does "start algebra" in 5th mean?  There are certainly early algebra concepts in the common core 5th grade standards, and a fair amount of algebra in 6th.  

 

[Not_a_Number]

Just now, BaseballandHockey said:

What does "start algebra" in 5th mean?  There are certainly early algebra concepts in the common core 5th grade standards, and a fair amount of algebra in 6th.  

 

I don't remember my schooling in Ukraine all that well, but I think you'd do algebra for real by then. You started with variables in like grade 1/2. 

[Drama Llama]

1 minute ago, Not_a_Number said:

I don't remember my schooling in Ukraine all that well, but I think you'd do algebra for real by then. You started with variables in like grade 1/2. 

Don't all first grade curricula have variables?  Certainly they're clearly called for in Common Core, so any Common Core aligned 1st grade curriculum will have them. 

[Not_a_Number]

Just now, BaseballandHockey said:

Don't all first grade curricula have variables?  Certainly they're clearly called for in Common Core, so any Common Core aligned 1st grade curriculum will have them. 

I have no idea. Do they? What do they do with them? I'm not that familiar with most curricula, but I don't remember seeing them much in BA, which is the only thing we own. 

[Drama Llama]

Just now, Not_a_Number said:

I have no idea. Do they? What do they do with them? I'm not that familiar with most curricula, but I don't remember seeing them much in BA, which is the only thing we own. 

BA doesn't have a first grade does it?

They use them to represent the unknown and then solve for them, generally in the context of addition and subtraction under 20.  

 

[Not_a_Number]

1 minute ago, BaseballandHockey said:

BA doesn't have a first grade does it?

They use them to represent the unknown and then solve for them, generally in the context of addition and subtraction under 20.  

Oh, I see. Maybe that explains why I have kids in AoPS who think that a variable can only stand for a particular quantity... 

Edited December 5, 2020 by Not_a_Number

[Not_a_Number]

2 minutes ago, BaseballandHockey said:

BA doesn't have a first grade does it?

And you're right, it only has a 2nd grade. We used it a bit in 1st grade, so for some reason I think of it as a first grade text, but of course it's not. 

[Drama Llama]

1 minute ago, Not_a_Number said:

Oh, I see. Maybe that explains why I have kids in AoPS who think that a variable can only stand for a particular quantity... 

So you didn't have your kid do things like X + 5 = 7?  I'm really confused by this.

[Drama Llama]

What are Ukrainian first graders doing with their variables?

[Not_a_Number]

1 minute ago, BaseballandHockey said:

So you didn't have your kid do things like X + 5 = 7?  I'm really confused by this.

I didn't exactly use variables in first grade -- I did shapes (triangle, square, etc.) But yes, I did questions like that, but I think we also did other things. Partially systems of equations, and partially things where there was more than one solution. I think always seeing variables in the context of an unknown can overtrain that idea. 

[Not_a_Number]

1 minute ago, BaseballandHockey said:

What are Ukrainian first graders doing with their variables?

You know, I really have no clue 😞 . Nowadays, something different from what I did as a kid. I have very vague memories of all this. All I know is that all math was review until grade 10, and I got to Canada in grade 6. But I wouldn't be able to tell you what was what grade. 

[Drama Llama]

Just now, Not_a_Number said:

I didn't exactly use variables in first grade -- I did shapes (triangle, square, etc.) But yes, I did questions like that, but I think we also did other things. Partially systems of equations, and partially things where there was more than one solution. I think always seeing variables in the context of an unknown can overtrain that idea. 

Shapes are variables if you use them that way.  But you did system of equations when you were doing first grade math and your kid wasn't adding and subtracting past 20, or you did systems of equations with a kid who chronologically would be a first grader?

[Not_a_Number]

Just now, BaseballandHockey said:

Shapes are variables if you use them that way.  But you did system of equations when you were doing first grade math and your kid wasn't adding and subtracting past 20, or you did systems of equations with a kid who chronologically would be a first grader?

We did systems with small numbers very early on, yeah. So she'd have been 4 or 5, doing 1st grade work. It was guess and check, not manipulation. 

[Drama Llama]

1 minute ago, Not_a_Number said:

We did systems with small numbers very early on, yeah. So she'd have been 4 or 5, doing 1st grade work. It was guess and check, not manipulation. 

Can you give an example?

[Not_a_Number]

Just now, BaseballandHockey said:

Can you give an example?

It was often stuff like x+ y = 5, x-y = 1. I don't remember exactly what we did. We'd also write down more than one solution to equations like x = y + 1. (It was all with shapes, but that's the idea.) 

[Not_a_Number]

I'm also sure I introduced multiplication at some point in that year, so it could have been things like 

xy = 4, 

x+y = 5 

when it was past the middle of the year. 

[Not_a_Number]

I think we also did things like, check whether 

x  + y = y + x 

is always true, stuff like that. Same for multiplication, where the question is less obvious. And some that are NOT always true. 

[wendyroo]

12 minutes ago, BaseballandHockey said:

Don't all first grade curricula have variables?  Certainly they're clearly called for in Common Core, so any Common Core aligned 1st grade curriculum will have them. 

My daughter just finished Math Expressions first grade (not my choice). It does not have any "variables" per se. It uses blanks for problems like 1 + ___ = 5. I felt that was a missed opportunity to introduce the idea of something standing in for an unknown number. My daughter found it confusing because the blank, EMPTY, spot read as nothing to her and she felt it should be zero. I started putting a unit cube in the blank space and calling it a mystery box so DD could grasp that we were figuring out how many items were hiding in it.

[Not_a_Number]

1 minute ago, wendyroo said:

My daughter just finished Math Expressions first grade (not my choice). It does not have any "variables" per se. It uses blanks for problems like 1 + ___ = 5. I felt that was a missed opportunity to introduce the idea of something standing in for an unknown number. My daughter found it confusing because the blank, EMPTY, spot read as nothing to her and she felt it should be zero. I started putting a unit cube in the blank space and calling it a mystery box so DD could grasp that we were figuring out how many items were hiding in it.

Yeah! That's what we do -- boxes and triangles and sometimes funnier shapes if we needed more 🙂 . When we're reading an equation, I have DD4 read the number as "some number." When there are two shapes, I have them read "the number in the box" and "the number in the triangle" or whatnot. 

Edited December 5, 2020 by Not_a_Number

[Porridge]

I’m going to put in a plug for Critical Thinking CO’s Balance Math and more. It uses a visual representation of a standard two arm balance to help kids understand equations in a very intuitive way. 

[Not_a_Number]

Just now, JHLWTM said:

I’m going to put in a plug for Critical Thinking CO’s Balance Math and more. It uses a visual representation of a standard two arm balance to help kids understand equations in a very intuitive way. 

So, I'm curious -- do kids really not understand equations? That's one of the concepts I wound up having no trouble with in my homeschooled classes. Kids didn't really know it to start with, but after I explained an equals sign is "the same as," they pretty much all got it, including kids who had serious trouble with other concepts like place value. 

[Porridge]

6 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

So, I'm curious -- do kids really not understand equations? That's one of the concepts I wound up having no trouble with in my homeschooled classes. Kids didn't really know it to start with, but after I explained an equals sign is "the same as," they pretty much all got it, including kids who had serious trouble with other concepts like place value. 

Personally, my kids had no trouble understanding equations.

i think where the Balance Math book helps is with the idea that pictures (or letters) can represent quantities. And later, when you need to isolate a variable or reorganize an equation, it’s easy to understand the concept of doing the Same thing to both sides of the equation.

[Not_a_Number]

9 minutes ago, JHLWTM said:

Personally, my kids had no trouble understanding equations.

i think where the Balance Math book helps is with the idea that pictures (or letters) can represent quantities. And later, when you need to isolate a variable or reorganize an equation, it’s easy to understand the concept of doing the Same thing to both sides of the equation.

Hmmmm. Maybe. I am really not trying to be obtuse, but once kids understand what an equation is, I find it's not super hard to convince that if you do the same thing to both sides, nothing changes. 

Now, the idea that pictures can represent numbers is a tricky one, especially since you need to understand the idea that a letter is more GENERAL than a number. So, it stands for some number, but you don't know what. Can we still work with it? Apparently, we can. That's a hard idea. 

ETA: in my experience, algebra programs often wind up UNTEACHING kids that you can do the same thing to both sides. Like, they suggest you can't take the square root of both sides, which you can! You can do anything defined to both sides! Anything at all! It's a very simple idea. 

Edited December 5, 2020 by Not_a_Number

[drjuliadc]

30 minutes ago, JHLWTM said:

I’m going to put in a plug for Critical Thinking CO’s Balance Math and more. It uses a visual representation of a standard two arm balance to help kids understand equations in a very intuitive way. 

Ooh ooh ooh I think I have that app.  I think I have every math app actually. OK that is an exaggeration.  I will look to see if there is a cyber sale still at CTC for the book. 

I have DragonBox elements and the dragonbox algebra apps too, but I don’t think my kids liked them that much. 

Thank you for directing my scatterbrained self toward something I already have.

[wendyroo]

10 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

Hmmmm. Maybe. I am really not trying to be obtuse, but once kids understand what an equation is, I find it's not super hard to convince that if you do the same thing to both sides, nothing changes. 

Now, the idea that pictures can represent numbers is a tricky one, especially since you need to understand the idea that a letter is more GENERAL than a number. So, it stands for some number, but you don't know what. Can we still work with it? Apparently, we can. That's a hard idea. 

ETA: in my experience, algebra programs often wind up UNTEACHING kids that you can do the same thing to both sides. Like, they suggest you can't take the square root of both sides, which you can! You can do anything defined to both sides! Anything at all! It's a very simple idea. 

One thing my 9 year old is struggling with is when you can do something to only one side of an equation. He was very hesitant to distribute 5(x + 2) because the other side of the equation did not have anything to distribute. He also doesn't seem to understand why he can add like terms on one side of an equation without adding something to the other.

I have demonstrated many times on the Hands on Equations balance scale that "adding" like terms is really just pushing two groups on one side of the scale together; it's not really "adding" anything new that would need to be compensated for on the other side. He does pretty well with that, but as soon as we step back into the abstract world of symbols on paper, he starts to get muddled again.

[purpleowl]

Beast Academy 2B uses shapes as variables. Here are some sample problems (using letters instead because they're simpler to type):

• Monsters with x feet need to bring x+x+x+2 socks to ski camp. How many socks should each monster described below pack for ski camp? (child provides # of socks for monsters with 4, 5, 10, and 50 feet)
• The number of girls in Ms. Franz's class is double the number of boys. If there are y boys in the class, which expression below describes the total number of students in the class? Options are y+y, y-(y-y), y+(y+y), y+(y-y), and y-(y+y)
• Simplify the expression: a+(b-b)+(c-c)
• Find the value of the symbol: 5+m=m+m; 16=n-100

So yes, BA does indeed deal with variables in level 2.

Math Mammoth, which I've used for 1st and 2nd grade material, has some shape variables as well. Things like 3+x=5 or 4=y-2. But I can't remember if that's in 1st or starts in 2nd. I've also used A Beka 1st grade and I don't recall anything like that in it, but it's possible I've just forgotten.

I have no experience with math education outside the US. I do recall being bored with arithmetic in elementary school; it wasn't until prealgebra that I thought, oh, math might actually be interesting. I'm really glad that I have options available for my kids that allow me to bring in the more interesting stuff at lower levels.

[daijobu]

9 hours ago, drjuliadc said:

 

When I asked my Bulgarian friend why she thought America had such an advantage considering our weak education system, she said that she thought it just hadn’t caught up to us yet.

 

Answer:  immigration.

[Not_a_Number]

1 hour ago, purpleowl said:

Beast Academy 2B uses shapes as variables. Here are some sample problems (using letters instead because they're simpler to type):

• Monsters with x feet need to bring x+x+x+2 socks to ski camp. How many socks should each monster described below pack for ski camp? (child provides # of socks for monsters with 4, 5, 10, and 50 feet)
• The number of girls in Ms. Franz's class is double the number of boys. If there are y boys in the class, which expression below describes the total number of students in the class? Options are y+y, y-(y-y), y+(y+y), y+(y-y), and y-(y+y)
• Simplify the expression: a+(b-b)+(c-c)
• Find the value of the symbol: 5+m=m+m; 16=n-100

So yes, BA does indeed deal with variables in level 2.

Hmmmm, I believe you, and I think I did see them, but they aren't... pervasive, maybe? 

[Porridge]

When I learned algebra, I was taught that to solve for the variable, you rearrange the terms until you isolate the variable on one side.  To do that, I was taught to move an addition or subtraction term to the other side, switching signs in the process. I was taught that when you move a multiplicand to the other side, you make it division (and vice versa). But I wasn’t told why. No one ever explained it to me as doing the same thing to both sides of the equation. 

[Not_a_Number]

3 minutes ago, JHLWTM said:

When I learned algebra, I was taught that to solve for the variable, you rearrange the terms until you isolate the variable on one side.  To do that, I was taught to move an addition or subtraction term to the other side, switching signs in the process. I was taught that when you move a multiplicand to the other side, you make it division (and vice versa). But I wasn’t told why. No one ever explained it to me as doing the same thing to both sides of the equation. 

I interact with a lot of kids who seem to have that kind of understanding. Then they are quite confused when I tell them to do weirder things on both sides of an equation (like take the magnitude, in complex numbers)... the idea isn't integrated into their thinking. 

[Ellie]

2 hours ago, BaseballandHockey said:

Don't all first grade curricula have variables?  Certainly they're clearly called for in Common Core, so any Common Core aligned 1st grade curriculum will have them. 

No, not all publishers do that.

[drjuliadc]

8 hours ago, daijobu said:

Answer:  immigration.

Actually, she said that too. Thank you so much for weighing in on this topic.

What do you feel are the advantages that the US has that invites more educated immigrants, other than the obvious economic opportunities? I mean, are there more specifics than just the general, economic opportunities, and where are the most educated immigrants coming from? This might vary depending on the industry. You can message me privately if you don’t feel free to say. Is anyone here in the US copying them? Them being those countries with better education systems than The US.

[Not_a_Number]

1 hour ago, drjuliadc said:

Actually, she said that too. Thank you so much for weighing in on this topic.

What do you feel are the advantages that the US has that invites more educated immigrants, other than the obvious economic opportunities? I mean, are there more specifics than just the general, economic opportunities, and where are the most educated immigrants coming from? This might vary depending on the industry. You can message me privately if you don’t feel free to say. Is anyone here in the US copying them? Them being those countries with better education systems than The US.

I think the economic opportunities are a big deal. And actually, the universities are excellent -- so it's not the case that all eduction is bad in the US... 

[drjuliadc]

5 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

I think the economic opportunities are a big deal. And actually, the universities are excellent -- so it's not the case that all eduction is bad in the US... 

You posted a video by Richard R about people being unprepared for college calculus even after the highest level of high school math available.  I was so glad to see this said out loud by someone. This was my experience exactly, which does indicate that college academics in the US are good even if the education before college isn’t. 

I have been so surprised that I have never heard even one person mention this problem since I experienced it in 1984 until you posted that video.

Is this what he refers to as “the calculus problem?” ... or is that something else?

That’s the only time I have heard him speak, so it just might be my exposure to a bunch of people who don’t need much math (pre med, med school and chiropractic college). Although I do take the time to talk to engineers and math teachers, even at the university level who happen to come in as patients.

Very few math teachers that I have come in contact with are aware of “contest math” either.

[Not_a_Number]

2 minutes ago, drjuliadc said:

You posted a video by Richard R about people being unprepared for college calculus even after the highest level of high school math available.  I was so glad to see this said out loud by someone. This was my experience exactly, which does indicate that college academics in the US are good even if the education before college isn’t. 

Yeah, college academics in the US are great. (I actually went to college in Canada, but same idea, having taught in the US.) The thing is that college teaching draws a very different group of people than the people who teach at schools. I had some great teachers in high school, but on average, high school teachers aren't people who love their subjects and are experts at it. That changes at the college level.

 

3 minutes ago, drjuliadc said:

I have been so surprised that I have never heard even one person mention this problem since I experienced it in 1984 until you posted that video.

That's a bit surprising to me, too, to be honest! The fact that the vast majority of students one teaches aren't ready for college math classes is something most math professors know, although they don't always figure out the root cause... 

[drjuliadc]

On 12/5/2020 at 9:16 AM, Not_a_Number said:

That's a bit surprising to me, too, to be honest! The fact that the vast majority of students one teaches aren't ready for college math classes is something most math professors know, although they don't always figure out the root cause... 

Yes, it’s the root cause issue that they don’t get.  I hear a lot of complaining about students being coddled, complaining, not willing to do work, behavioral type things, never that the level of math education that preceded college isn’t adequate. Never. The blame is always on the student/parents attitude, work ethic, which I am sure is a problem too.

In my area, where everyone moves because the schools are so “good,” “math circle mom,” who has children high school age, tells me that the public schools were terrible to work with in allowing her to accelerate her own two children in math. So besides the math education being inadequate, the public school blocks you from working around it yourself.

My oldest was in the gifted program in the public school last year for third grade. His teacher had been doing gifted education for 30 years and she had a really good reputation. I asked her if I kept my kids in the public school gifted program would I be able to accelerate them in math, just provide materials, not require the teacher to teach it. She said some teachers will allow it and some won’t.

Edited December 7, 2020 by drjuliadc

[Not_a_Number]

1 hour ago, drjuliadc said:

Yes, it’s the root cause issue that they don’t get.  I hear a lot of complaining about students being coddled, complaining, not willing to do work, behavioral type things, never that the level of math education that preceded college isn’t adequate. Never. The blame is always on the student/parents attitude, work ethic, which I am sure is a problem too.

It's possible I hang out with more self-aware people, lol, but I know lots of professors who think that kids aren't prepared enough and aren't able to do hard math for that reason. 

[daijobu]

7 hours ago, drjuliadc said:

Actually, she said that too. Thank you so much for weighing in on this topic.

What do you feel are the advantages that the US has that invites more educated immigrants, other than the obvious economic opportunities? I mean, are there more specifics than just the general, economic opportunities, and where are the most educated immigrants coming from? 

Answer:  It's the obvious economic opportunities.  

My family is from an older generation that immigrated to the US in the 1960s when the difference between the living standards in the US and in 3rd world countries was stark.  I grew up in a white suburb in the midwest where doctors were from a united nations of countries:  Iran, Syria, India, Korea, China, Thailand.  If you had a doctor there was a good chance he/she was a from a third world country.   

As far as my family is concerned, it was a favorable decision.  I have enjoyed an amazing life in the US, with everything I could ever wish for.  

[daijobu]

4 hours ago, drjuliadc said:

Yes, it’s the root cause issue that they don’t get.  I hear a lot of complaining about students being coddled, complaining, not willing to do work, behavioral type things, never that the level of math education that preceded college isn’t adequate. Never. The blame is always on the student/parents attitude, work ethic, which I am sure is a problem too.

 

Yeah, white people kinda suck.  They arrive at college unprepared for college level work.  So they drop out of engineering programs, but it was okay because they could pick up a liberal arts degree and still maintain a healthy social life and join a fraternity, then either go on to law school or go work in marketing at some big company.  

Now those back up white collar jobs are disappearing, and more unprepared students are unwilling to give up on the CS degree they hoped for.  In the 80s they would have quietly chosen another major.  Now they are complaining. This article is about poor kids, but I think it also applies to white middle class kids as well.  We may see pressure on professors to lower standards so  these kids can graduate with CS degrees, and those professors will have little incentive to make a stand for maintaining high standards, and follow the lead of their liberal arts colleagues.  

 

[Not_a_Number]

Just now, daijobu said:

Yeah, white people kinda suck.  They arrive at college unprepared for college level work.  So they drop out of engineering programs, but it was okay because they could pick up a liberal arts degree and still maintain a healthy social life and join a fraternity, then either go on to law school or go work in marketing at some big company.  

Now those back up white collar jobs are disappearing, and more unprepared students are unwilling to give up on the CS degree they hoped for.  In the 80s they would have quietly chosen another major.  Now they are complaining. This article is about poor kids, but I think it also applies to white middle class kids as well.  We may see pressure on professors to lower standards so  these kids can graduate with CS degrees, and those professors will have little incentive to make a stand for maintaining high standards, and follow the lead of their liberal arts colleagues.  

Hey, as a longtime white person, I object 😉 . (Although it's possible that as a Jew, I don't count.) 

I know what you mean and the stereotype you're referring to, though. It's kids from comfortable backgrounds that are used to feeling like they don't need to work for what they want in life. And yes, it does come with a lot of unearned entitlement... 

[Not_a_Number]

5 minutes ago, daijobu said:

Yeah, white people kinda suck.  They arrive at college unprepared for college level work.  So they drop out of engineering programs, but it was okay because they could pick up a liberal arts degree and still maintain a healthy social life and join a fraternity, then either go on to law school or go work in marketing at some big company.  

Now those back up white collar jobs are disappearing, and more unprepared students are unwilling to give up on the CS degree they hoped for.  In the 80s they would have quietly chosen another major.  Now they are complaining. This article is about poor kids, but I think it also applies to white middle class kids as well.  We may see pressure on professors to lower standards so  these kids can graduate with CS degrees, and those professors will have little incentive to make a stand for maintaining high standards, and follow the lead of their liberal arts colleagues.  

By the way, I tend to agree with the students on this one... most of my calculus kids who were deeply unprepared and unable to do well were really working hard. They were working very hard. The problem was that they had no idea HOW to work in such a way that got results. Some of my calculus kids spent HOURS rereading solutions to homework problems in the vain hope that they'd remember it. They didn't realize that this was ineffective and I didn't know how to convince them that it was. 

I watched this video recently and this discussion is reminding me of it: 

 

Edited December 5, 2020 by Not_a_Number

[daijobu]

2 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

Hey, as a longtime white person, I object 😉 . (Although it's possible that as a Jew, I don't count.) 

I know what you mean and the stereotype you're referring to, though. It's kids from comfortable backgrounds that are used to feeling like they don't need to work for what they want in life. And yes, it does come with a lot of unearned entitlement... 

As a Jew and a recent immigrant you don't count.  Once we immigrants have been in the US for a generation, we get soft, lol.  I joke, but I paid serious attention to the phenomenon with my own kids.  

At my high school, the highest levels of math classes were populated by immigrant students.  There would be 1-2 white students, and we referred to them as our affirmative action kids.  

[Not_a_Number]

2 minutes ago, daijobu said:

As a Jew and a recent immigrant you don't count.  Once we immigrants have been in the US for a generation, we get soft, lol.  I joke, but I paid serious attention to the phenomenon with my own kids.  

At my high school, the highest levels of math classes were populated by immigrant students.  There would be 1-2 white students, and we referred to them as our affirmative action kids.  

My husband isn't a recent immigrant, though. There's a lot to be said for family culture...

ETA: at least I hope it helps! I want my kids to be able to work hard. That's why they are homeschooled, lol. 

Edited December 5, 2020 by Not_a_Number

[daijobu]

11 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

By the way, I tend to agree with the students on this one... most of my calculus kids who were deeply unprepared and unable to do well were really working hard. They were working very hard. The problem was that they had no idea HOW to work in such a way that got results. Some of my calculus kids spent HOURS rereading solutions to homework problems in the vain hope that they'd remember it. They didn't realize that this was ineffective and I didn't know how to convince them that it was. 

I watched this video recently and this discussion is reminding me of it: 

 

Thanks, I hadn't seen this "meta" Veritasium video.  I love those videos precisely because he addresses the misconceptions directly.  I especially enjoyed the one about where all the carbon in a tree comes from.  The soil?  Then why isn't there a big whole surrounding a tree where the carbon used to be?  

I also wanted to model study skills to my kids, with an emphasis on reading skills.    I mentioned in another thread that I didn't have my kids use online learning until high school, mainly because I wanted them to be self sufficient with their study skills.  They couldn't count on good teaching at university, so they need to be able to make up the difference when needed.  

There's a way of learning challenging material from a textbook that many people seem to miss.  A student needs to be sitting upright, pen and paper in hand, writing what they see in the textbook, following along line by line, summarizing topics or copying equations as needed.  You don't sit back in bed with a book on your lap reading, like you would a celebrity memoir.  

[medawyn]

19 hours ago, Not_a_Number said:

So, I'm curious -- do kids really not understand equations? That's one of the concepts I wound up having no trouble with in my homeschooled classes. Kids didn't really know it to start with, but after I explained an equals sign is "the same as," they pretty much all got it, including kids who had serious trouble with other concepts like place value. 

They have problems unlearning that an equal sign does not mean "the answer is".  I am working with a second grader right now, and I have to remind him daily that = means "the same as" or I get many wrong answers from him.  I purposely write equations in a variety of ways to make him think through the problem, but if I don't prompt him and read the first 2-3 with him, guaranteed I'll get a slew of wrong answers because he sees an equal sign and immediately assumes the answer goes there.  A problem like 2+3 = 3 + x will automatically get a "5". He's quite obviously accustomed to a page of cookie cutter problems requiring little thought, but it's astounding how many bad habits that has taught him.

I'm shocked because I struggle with math and fret about teaching my own kids, and while I by no means feel sanguine about higher levels, I now feel pretty confident that I'm giving them a good base in early elementary math.

[EKS]

On 12/4/2020 at 10:37 AM, Not_a_Number said:

I think it was standard in Eastern Europe at the time, although I believe they've kind of dumped that education system now and have done more "American style" stuff, much to their detriment. I got to Canada when I was 11, and I found math all review until maybe grade 10, so I would believe her. 

Did they have tracking then and not now?  Because with bright kids, starting algebra in 5th grade is no problem.

[EKS]

8 hours ago, Not_a_Number said:

And actually, the universities are excellent -- so it's not the case that all eduction is bad in the US... 

The universities are also the only places where tracking occurs on a large scale.  First to get in and then people self sort after that.