How isolated is safe?

[Not_a_Number]

Just now, EKS said:

I guess we'll know in a week or so.  Ugh.

It ought to be long enough, from what I'd read, although this wouldn't be my favorite set up. 

[ieta_cassiopeia]

3 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

But why would I assume the virus is on the package and not on the food? I feel like one is quite vulnerable with food. Maybe we should stop getting takeout, at least cold takeout 😕 . 

Because one of the things the "good hygeine practices" are supposed to do is prevent COVID (or anything else that could make anyone ill) get into the food.

[Kalmia]

I know five people who have had COVID. Two of those were in NYC, elderly, one may have been in an assisted living home. Both passed away and I have no concrete information on how they got it.

Another one (48 years old) got it very early in the outbreak. He'd gone remote for teaching and was ordering food in, was not visiting his elderly mother for her protection, but he invited his nephews over to play on his trampoline (which is in his apartment--it is an acrobatic dance theater thing) even though his brother had said they were all sick (with what they thought at the time was a cold) the week before. So he was doing the safe thing, but made exceptions for family. This was back when media outlets were saying things like "If you think you have COVID, you probably don't. It is most likely just a cold or the flu. Ride it out at home" and "Children don't spread COVID" and  before widespread mask use or widespread available testing. So while his brother and nephews had a week-long "cold", he was in the ICU (and rehab) for 47 days with a 2% chance of survival. Perhaps the increased viral load of having two COVID positive children breathing heavily all over him while they did tricks on the trampoline caused a worse case or perhaps something in his physiology made him more susceptible. 

The other two people I know who got it are mother and daughter and the daughter brought it home from college. They have mild cases. 
 

[vonfirmath]

The person who is most isolated I know about that got COVID I don't know the answer to all these questions. But her and her two daughters got and recovered from COVID and her husband had a fever last night.  (She just got her negative test result this morning that would have allowed her to go back to work without that fever)

 

She works in a lab environment designing COVID-19 test equipment, so from the beginning has been extra careful. Stopped attending in person church/events, etc right away. Her kids are virtual.  Her company is very careful (Even having a "smell" test as well as the temp check and questionnaires) but she has to be there, in person. She can't work virtually. I don't know if her husband is working outside the home or how they are getting groceries. I know they are leaving the house on occasion. But not to go places. Just to get the kids out of the house. (They are younger than mine so I can imagine how antsy its been)

Edited December 3, 2020 by vonfirmath

[Scarlett]

16 minutes ago, Kalmia said:

I know five people who have had COVID. Two of those were in NYC, elderly, one may have been in an assisted living home. Both passed away and I have no concrete information on how they got it.

Another one (48 years old) got it very early in the outbreak. He'd gone remote for teaching and was ordering food in, was not visiting his elderly mother for her protection, but he invited his nephews over to play on his trampoline (which is in his apartment--it is an acrobatic dance theater thing) even though his brother had said they were all sick (with what they thought at the time was a cold) the week before. So he was doing the safe thing, but made exceptions for family. This was back when media outlets were saying things like "If you think you have COVID, you probably don't. It is most likely just a cold or the flu. Ride it out at home" and "Children don't spread COVID" and  before widespread mask use or widespread available testing. So while his brother and nephews had a week-long "cold", he was in the ICU (and rehab) for 47 days with a 2% chance of survival. Perhaps the increased viral load of having two COVID positive children breathing heavily all over him while they did tricks on the trampoline caused a worse case or perhaps something in his physiology made him more susceptible. 

The other two people I know who got it are mother and daughter and the daughter brought it home from college. They have mild cases. 
 

That is horrifying.  And part of what scares me so  bad.  

[Scarlett]

5 minutes ago, Choirfarm3 said:

I guess what concerns me about this is what will our society look like when this is all over. We are starting to see restaurants folding, some small, some big chains. This virus has taken such a big toll. If "to be safe" none of us go there anymore even for take-out, how will they survive??  

Some have already folded and won't reopen.  But people aren't going to stop eating out long term.  

[Carrie12345]

4 minutes ago, Choirfarm3 said:

I guess what concerns me about this is what will our society look like when this is all over. We are starting to see restaurants folding, some small, some big chains. This virus has taken such a big toll. If "to be safe" none of us go there anymore even for take-out, how will they survive??  

I’m not unsympathetic to the very real plight of restaurant owners and employees, but it’s way down on the bottom of my list of concerns, well after actual human deaths, complications in the medical system, grocery system, education system, and limited financial assistance options.  I mean, if we’re going to choose what’s most important to our society....

[Scarlett]

1 minute ago, Carrie12345 said:

I’m not unsympathetic to the very real plight of restaurant owners and employees, but it’s way down on the bottom of my list of concerns, well after actual human deaths, complications in the medical system, grocery system, education system, and limited financial assistance options.  I mean, if we’re going to choose what’s most important to our society....

Right.  Some people will just have to figure out different jobs. That sounded kind of flip, but I am seeing there are some jobs that are increasing which makes sense.  

[1234]

Dh and I had our weekly take out breakfast in the car this morning. There were so many other people near us eating in their cars just like us.  We’re going to keep getting take out and having some time away from home/dc. It’s important for our sanity.  

I’m not at all concerned by take out food or grocery pick up/delivery anymore, so I’m going to keep doing my best to give them business. None of us work outside the home, the only place we go indoors is for doctor visits, and the dc see relatively few friends here and there.

I think we all have to do what’s best for us in our current situations. I mean, I’m being super careful compared to everyone else I know IRL so it’s weird to come here and feel like one of the not careful people. My family and friends thinks we’re completely ridiculous with how careful we are compared to all of them.

[vonfirmath]

5 minutes ago, Joker2 said:

Dh and I had our weekly take out breakfast in the car this morning. There were so many other people near us eating in their cars just like us.  We’re going to keep getting take out and having some time away from home/dc. It’s important for our sanity.  

I’m not at all concerned by take out food or grocery pick up/delivery anymore, so I’m going to keep doing my best to give them business. None of us work outside the home, the only place we go indoors is for doctor visits, and the dc see relatively few friends here and there.

I think we all have to do what’s best for us in our current situations. I mean, I’m being super careful compared to everyone else I know IRL so it’s weird to come here and feel like one of the not careful people. My family and friends thinks we’re completely ridiculous with how careful we are compared to all of them.

Yep. I'm in the same boat (and I left the boards for a time over it)  Careful in RL Incredibly risky in the judgement of the boards.

 

Edited December 3, 2020 by vonfirmath

[SeaConquest]

Even if you are trying to be careful, it's hard to keep your vigilance up for going on close to a year. I only work at the hospital one day per week. All of our patients are screened for Covid. So, if I have a Covid rule-out patient, I wear an N95 and goggles, but if I am working on the units where the tests have come back as Covid negative, I only have to wear a regular surgical mask. So, I feel relatively safe at the hospital around patients. Yet, I still find myself doing stupid stuff around my coworkers, like removing my mask to eat while on breaks. I have no idea how cautious my coworkers are being; they could be complete ninnies in their personal lives. Why would I remove my mask around them -- indoors of all places? I wouldn't do that around anyone else, outside of my immediate family. It's just really hard to be vigilant all the time for this many months. People let their guard down or simply make a mistake in infection control, even the most well-intended. Or, like me, you could be short on time for your break, and rather than take the extra time to walk outside with your microwaved food, you just eat inside with your coworkers who all seem fine and healthy. It only takes one mistake.     

[Not_a_Number]

1 hour ago, Choirfarm3 said:

I guess what concerns me about this is what will our society look like when this is all over. We are starting to see restaurants folding, some small, some big chains. This virus has taken such a big toll. If "to be safe" none of us go there anymore even for take-out, how will they survive??  

I'll do my share to support restaurants when this is over, let me tell you, lol. I miss restaurants!! 

[Not_a_Number]

53 minutes ago, vonfirmath said:

Yep. I'm in the same boat (and I left the boards for a time over it)  Careful in RL Incredibly risky in the judgement of the boards.

I think at the end of the day, everyone decides for themselves. Having learned a bunch about this virus, I've decided I don't want it, so that's how I'm behaving. 

[catz]

15 minutes ago, SeaConquest said:

Even if you are trying to be careful, it's hard to keep your vigilance up for going on close to a year. I only work at the hospital one day per week. All of our patients are screened for Covid. So, if I have a Covid rule-out patient, I wear an N95 and goggles, but if I am working on the units where the tests have come back as Covid negative, I only have to wear a regular surgical mask. So, I feel relatively safe at the hospital around patients. Yet, I still find myself doing stupid stuff around my coworkers, like removing my mask to eat while on breaks. I have no idea how cautious my coworkers are being; they could be complete ninnies in their personal lives. Why would I remove my mask around them -- indoors of all places? I wouldn't do that around anyone else, outside of my immediate family. It's just really hard to be vigilant all the time for this many months. People let their guard down or simply make a mistake in infection control, even the most well-intended. Or, like me, you could be short on time for your break, and rather than take the extra time to walk outside with your microwaved food, you just eat inside with your coworkers who all seem fine and healthy. It only takes one mistake.     

I actually read about an outbreak not long ago traced to a break room in a hospital where people would eat their lunches.  Didn't spread to patients because of all the masking/PPE going on with patient work.  I totally get why in that setting when you have 15 minutes why you wouldn't think too hard about eating your quick lunch.   It stinks!  😕   

I will do my part to support restaurants too!  We are doing take out/curbside.  I haven't heard of cases here that may be related.  I am more meticulous about hand washing when using take out.  I don't worry about that either.  The thing about the restaurant industry is it's hard during good times.  60% of restaurants close within 1 year, and 80% within 5 years.  The restaurants here I think will survive have closed for the winter or changed their business model drastically for the foreseeable future.  Like the locally owned upscale Mexican restaurant is doing take out taco boxes and fixings for 4 for a fixed price.  Honestly, that model is working great for them, you need to reserve ahead.  

I think it would be interesting to ask people who contact covid directly if they have been in a closed indoor space with anyone outside of who they live with for more than 5-10 minutes.  I suspect that would account for the vast, vast majority of cases.  It doesn't really matter if it was work or play, it's possible.  Our state linked transmission numbers higher after 10 pm which led to 10 pm shutdowns as numbers went up.  People get tired, they drink, they chat and they laugh loudly, they're more likely to contract covid. 

[Not_a_Number]

29 minutes ago, FuzzyCatz said:

I think it would be interesting to ask people who contact covid directly if they have been in a closed indoor space with anyone outside of who they live with for more than 5-10 minutes.  I suspect that would account for the vast, vast majority of cases.  It doesn't really matter if it was work or play, it's possible.  Our state linked transmission numbers higher after 10 pm which led to 10 pm shutdowns as numbers went up.  People get tired, they drink, they chat and they laugh loudly, they're more likely to contract covid. 

Yeah, I'd love to know. Except that's almost everyone, right? We're supposed to have a closed pod, but we can't really with doctor's appointments. And then what? 

[catz]

1 hour ago, Not_a_Number said:

Yeah, I'd love to know. Except that's almost everyone, right? We're supposed to have a closed pod, but we can't really with doctor's appointments. And then what? 

Sorry, I thought you were trying to suss out unusual means of infection by  stuff like air venting or contact.  Which I do suspect is very low and more likely in immuno compromised people, etc.  Especially in people being mindful about hand washing.  

I do consider visits to our urban clinics, offices, etc to be pretty safe.  They have been running with very low rates of infection for months.  Our urban counties have had much less erratic infection rates than the rural ones.  Yes, cases are out there and yes they have risen as a result of rural counties rising but they are better controlled.  That said, I am only doing necessary appointments right now and putting stuff off otherwise.  Especially during this current surge.   If I had particular health concerns or family history that would indicate I should have a mammogram, etc on time I would follow those recommendations. 

I just think if you're in closed indoor spaces outside your living space with others outside there bubble their is some level of risk.  If someone in your bubble is doing that, even if you are not, that is also a risk.  

Edited December 3, 2020 by FuzzyCatz

[MoyaPechal]

The people I know who caught covid got it at work and were otherwise being very careful.

[Not_a_Number]

48 minutes ago, FuzzyCatz said:

Sorry, I thought you were trying to suss out unusual means of infection by  stuff like air venting or contact.  Which I do suspect is very low and more likely in immuno compromised people, etc.  Especially in people being mindful about hand washing.  

Yeah, I am definitely trying to learn about weird things that could happen 😉 . But also not so weird... I'm curious how common these means of transmission are. 

[mathnerd]

4 hours ago, Not_a_Number said:

But why would I assume the virus is on the package and not on the food? I feel like one is quite vulnerable with food. Maybe we should stop getting takeout, at least cold takeout 😕 . 

I have seen restaurant workers (and grocery store workers and car mechanics) who wear a mask around just their mouths and not their noses. There is no guarantee that the virus is not on the food. This is the reason we decided against takeout. But we do buy cold prepared food and cook it at home. 

Edited December 3, 2020 by mathnerd

[Not_a_Number]

1 minute ago, mathnerd said:

I have seen restaurant workers (and grocery store workers and car mechanics) who wear a mask around just their mouths and not their noses. There is no guarantee that the virus is not on the food. This is the reason we decided against takeout. But we do buy cold prepared food and cook it at home. 

Exactly. No guarantee at all. I told DH we're going to stop getting cold takeout, at least -- I don't feel as worried about hot food, since that's likely to break things down. 

So, no more sandwiches and no more sushi, sigh. We just gotta make it through the winter... 

[SKL]

I am not really sure how careful some of them were being, but there is quite a range.  I have heard of people getting it despite being very careful.  Like a homeschooler who works remotely and has been a big mask/SD advocate all along.  That always makes me wonder how  much of the fuss is futile. 

I continue to advise that people like me should just always assume we have it and act accordingly, regardless of how careful our at-risk people are being.

[MEmama]

1 hour ago, MoyaPechal said:

The people I know who caught covid got it at work and were otherwise being very careful.

Same.

I was likely infected in my office and unknowingly spread it to my family. My boss was an anti masker and took no precautions. I wore a mask and Lysoled everything obsessively.

My brother was infected at his job, where he works outside, distanced and masked (I think) and spread it to both my parents and my sister.

A friend who is currently sick got it at work from a co-worker. They work masked, but it’s a varied work population. So far so good for his wife and daughter. 🤞

[mathnerd]

1 minute ago, MEmama said:

Same.

I was likely infected in my office and unknowingly spread it to my family. My boss was an anti masker and took no precautions. I wore a mask and Lysoled everything obsessively.

My brother was infected at his job, where he works outside, distanced and masked (I think) and spread it to both my parents and my sister.

A friend who is currently sick got it at work from a co-worker. They work masked, but it’s a varied work population. So far so good for his wife and daughter. 🤞

The problem is that even if they are being extremely careful with masking, they are using shared spaces like toilets if they are at work all day. That is where it becomes very hard to avoid infection. Many companies that I know of hesitate to bring workers back into the offices for this reason.

[mathnerd]

1 hour ago, Not_a_Number said:

Exactly. No guarantee at all. I told DH we're going to stop getting cold takeout, at least -- I don't feel as worried about hot food, since that's likely to break things down. 

So, no more sandwiches and no more sushi, sigh. We just gotta make it through the winter... 

I think that if you can avoid a class of foods in your takeout and stick to others, then, you can still have your takeout food and minimize your chances of virus in your food.

In our case, we get take-and-bake pizza, soups in containers and fresh pasta from local delis that can be cooked easily at home and the temperatures they are subject to makes them safe.

[MEmama]

13 minutes ago, mathnerd said:

The problem is that even if they are being extremely careful with masking, they are using shared spaces like toilets if they are at work all day. That is where it becomes very hard to avoid infection. Many companies that I know of hesitate to bring workers back into the offices for this reason.

Yup. DH isn’t even allowed in his office, and now they are asking a wider range of employees to work from home. It’s really weird to hear that somehow this is “elitist” or something. I mean, he would work from home if given the choice, but in actuality it’s mandated. 
 

[Not_a_Number]

51 minutes ago, Thatboyofmine said:

@Not_a_Number, I apologize for picking apart your original title and post.   I lashed out due to frustration and just being so tired of this whole thing, and it was wrong.  I'm sorry.  

Thank you. I appreciate the apology. 

And I am really, really sorry you're having the world's worst week. 

[ktgrok]

On 12/3/2020 at 3:37 AM, Thatboyofmine said:

Can we stop trying to rate people and assign people a score based on how they’re handling covid?     
Aside from a very few (in the grand scheme of things), most people are trying to do their best according to their own set of circumstances.  We have no idea what their set of circumstances are, so maybe it’s best to just give grace when someone gets covid or when we see someone not masked properly or whatever. Obviously, I’m not talking about someone like the oncology nurse who bragged about having play dates and traveling and not masking.  Obviously it’s difficult to give grace to the (very few) people like that.  But for the vast majority of the population, do we really need to be so flipping judgemental?     It’s just gross. 

I think this was covered, but it isn't about judging people, it is about judging the risk. The way to figure out how this seems to spread is to know, well, how and where people are getting it. If the thread shows people are getting it from masked trips to the store, that might help others evaluate their own risk. 

23 hours ago, Carrie12345 said:

I chose to respond in the spirit of the question rather than parsing the word choice, but the word choice *is a little problematic and can probably be avoided in the future.

I mean, it doesn’t feel right to say my household is less cautious having a working EMT in the family.  I think I’m taking *more precautions because of it.

Right, it's more or less exposed, not more or less careful. 

We are VERY careful, to the extent we can be, but my son's job cannot be done remotely and he lives with us. So he brings higher exposure. My son has had to have multiple doctor's appointments due to a fractured arm - more exposure. My husband and i have had to have some doctor's appointments for true medical needs, and I'm having an endoscopy on the 9th (which I'm freaking out about, exposure wise). Those are all raising our exposure, but don't reflect on how cautious we want to be. 

21 hours ago, SeaConquest said:

I saw a post on Twitter yesterday from an oncologist who said that her long-time isolating cancer patients are now testing positive. She said that, although they have been isolating, there is so much community spread that loved ones (who have tried to be careful, but still have to work, grocery shop, etc.) are passing it on to her patients in greater numbers.

Well, that's the thing. It isn't really isolation if you are in contact with people who have contact with the public. Which is why the whole "forget masks, let healthy people get it and just protect the vulnerable" doesn't work as a strategy. 

16 hours ago, mathnerd said:

I have seen restaurant workers (and grocery store workers and car mechanics) who wear a mask around just their mouths and not their noses. There is no guarantee that the virus is not on the food. This is the reason we decided against takeout. But we do buy cold prepared food and cook it at home. 

Yup. And honestly, we've already got health issues that make take out/restaurants problematic (celiac) and have gotten sick from supposedly safe places that are taking precautions. Risk of gluten contamination plus paying way more than if I make it myself plus risk of a deadly virus? Just not worth it. 

 

[Not_a_Number]

19 minutes ago, ktgrok said:

Yup. And honestly, we've already got health issues that make take out/restaurants problematic (celiac) and have gotten sick from supposedly safe places that are taking precautions. Risk of gluten contamination plus paying way more than if I make it myself plus risk of a deadly virus? Just not worth it. 

We've been in a low positivity place for so long that it has seemed like a reasonable trade off. But I don't know that it does anymore. 

[MEmama]

48 minutes ago, ktgrok said:

Right, it's more or less exposed, not more or less careful. 

 

I like this reframing. 

Judging from all the viewpoints and perceptions on these various recent threads, I think it’s clear that messaging matters. I really like this one, Katie.