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s/o Vaccine - required? voluntary? for various jobs/people


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My employer will offer it, as they do the flu shot, but not require it.  I suspect the hospitals at least locally will follow their flu shot guidelines; you can get it or you can mask.

I actually see the biggest problem being public buy in.  It’s hard enough to get people to come back for their second dose of a shot; and I think there are a lot of people who are hesitant enough that a series of two shots is enough to make them not get it. 

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I am really hoping DD will be able to get it before going to college next fall. I think group living situations like dorms need to be an area where vaccination is prioritized-and if it is prioritized for the students who can be fully vaccinated, it will protect those who cannot be. 

 

And I will be getting it as soon as my specialists recommend it, which, I suspect, will be as soon as it is readily available for people in my age group/risk factors. Mandatory or not. 

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5 hours ago, Bootsie said:

According to this States With the Highest and Lowest Vaccination Rates – Page 8 – 24/7 Wall St. Texas ranks 33 in vaccination rates.  Yes, Massachusetts rates 1st.  But, with a 69.5% vaccination rate (especially given the high rate of uninsured in Texas), Texas ranks higher than California (65%) and Oregon (58%) 

I'm surprised NJ isn't higher on this list.  We don't have that many exceptions for vaccination for school kids.  Although I couldn't tell if the vaccination rate was mainly for kids under 5 (since that's the population they mention) or all kids.  I do know a lot of people who "catch up" with vaccines in order to go to school.    Universities (at least state universities) here require meningitis to live on campus.  I'm not sure about any others, dd was fully vaccinated so it wasn't something I paid a lot of attention to. 

Dh and I were just talking about Covid vaccine the other day.   I think I'll be comfortable making a decision about it by summer 2021.   By that point, I think a lot of people - healthcare workers, military, high risk - will have been vaccinated and we'll hear about any major issues.   Odds are good we wouldn't be able to get it before that point anyway since neither of us work for the type of industry likely to require it (I run my own business) or travel for business very often.  

What I do hope is that the mask mandates continue until a decent percentage of the population can be vaccinated or is vaccinated.  I'm sure I will run into issues if I try to require masks longer than the mandates go on.   Requiring proof of vax will definitely be a no-go (my "clientele" is mainly children so that has multiple issues) so the way this all shakes out could end up being very awkward for me.  

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10 minutes ago, DorothyNJ said:

I'm surprised NJ isn't higher on this list.  We don't have that many exceptions for vaccination for school kids.  Although I couldn't tell if the vaccination rate was mainly for kids under 5 (since that's the population they mention) or all kids.  I do know a lot of people who "catch up" with vaccines in order to go to school.    Universities (at least state universities) here require meningitis to live on campus.  I'm not sure about any others, dd was fully vaccinated so it wasn't something I paid a lot of attention to. 

Dh and I were just talking about Covid vaccine the other day.   I think I'll be comfortable making a decision about it by summer 2021.   By that point, I think a lot of people - healthcare workers, military, high risk - will have been vaccinated and we'll hear about any major issues.   Odds are good we wouldn't be able to get it before that point anyway since neither of us work for the type of industry likely to require it (I run my own business) or travel for business very often.  

What I do hope is that the mask mandates continue until a decent percentage of the population can be vaccinated or is vaccinated.  I'm sure I will run into issues if I try to require masks longer than the mandates go on.   Requiring proof of vax will definitely be a no-go (my "clientele" is mainly children so that has multiple issues) so the way this all shakes out could end up being very awkward for me.  

I'm concerned about that as well. Since the vaccines have not even started testing on kids, I cannot imagine that my students will be able to get it any time soon. I am hoping that the mask mandate stays around until most adults, at least, can be vaccinated. 

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13 hours ago, Corraleno said:

Here is the list of vaccines currently required by son's university. I fully expect (and certainly hope!) they will add covid to the list once it's widely available.

REQUIRED VACCINATIONS

The following vaccines are given in accordance with guidelines set forth by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC).

Hepatitis B

  • Three (3) doses OR lab report confirming immunity

Measles, Mumps, Rubella

  • Two (2) doses of MMR OR two (2) doses of Measles, two (2) doses of Mumps and one (1) dose of Rubella OR lab report confirming immunity

Meningococcal Conjugate (ACWY)

  • Required for those students who will be younger than twenty-two (22) at the start of their first semester
  • One dose received since age 16

Polio

  • Required for those students who will be younger than eighteen at the start of their first semester
  • Four doses of IPV or OPV

Tetanus-Diphtheria-Pertussis

  • One dose of TDap received within the past ten (10) years OR
  • One dose of TDap received since age 10 and one (1) dose or either TDap or TD within the last ten years

Varicella

  • Two doses OR lab report confirming immunity
  • Documentation of history of disease does not satisfy the requirement


All requirements are to be completed prior to the start of the student's first semester.

Yes, and the state university that my youngest attended as a dual enrollment student living in my house, not dorms, did require the meningitis.

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12 hours ago, FuzzyCatz said:

I totally get that physicals and drug tests aren't the same as getting a vaccine.  But it is the similar from a liability if something went wrong stand point.  Imagine the anti vaxxer spreads covid in a closed meeting with customers.  All I am saying is I won't be surprised if some employers require it.  My kid's college requires certain vaccines.  It really doesn't seem that off the wall to me.  I think we are unlikely to see any state or federal mandates though.  

I'm not sure most employers can legally require it.

At least some states have given businesses statutory immunity from liability for Covid spread, as long as they document certain safety practices.

A huge number of businesses are currently open with no vax.  Given that the risks will be less after a vax is available, I seriously doubt many businesses will demand an invasive medical procedure in order to continue doing what they've been doing - even assuming the legally could do so.

As a business owner, I would not do this.  I would encourage my employees to get vaxed if it fits with their family health and values profile.

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1 minute ago, SKL said:

I'm not sure most employers can legally require it.

At least some states have given businesses statutory immunity from liability for Covid spread, as long as they document certain safety practices.

A huge number of businesses are currently open with no vax.  Given that the risks will be less after a vax is available, I seriously doubt many businesses will demand an invasive medical procedure in order to continue doing what they've been doing - even assuming the legally could do so.

As a business owner, I would not do this.  I would encourage my employees to get vaxed if it fits with their family health and values profile.

If you are an at will state, it is completely legal.  My state is an at will state.  Somebody can fire you because you colored your hair purple or wore purple jeans or whatever.  They can most definitely require vaccinations.

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14 hours ago, Dreamergal said:

Pre-March I would have screamed HIPAA at any employer who required vaccination. Travel ? Let an airline test me ? Forget about it ? I flew at the height of Ebola and Sars, often 15 hours one way before breaking my journey (US to the Gulf, most Gulf airlines had these direct flights three or four times a week from major US cities). Did not think twice about it, did not mask. Saw some odorless come out of the vents like a cross between water vapor and fog machine during Ebola from the Emirates big flights to "sanitize" the air preflight for lack of a better word.  Did not think twice about it. Felt very comfortable flying, did not think twice and groaned over paperwork. No temperature checks in the US, elsewhere yes.

This is different. Countries are shut, economies are shattered, borders are shut down which has never happened to me before. Airlines will demand vaccination proof. There are more countries around the world where vaccination is mandatory than not especially in the developing world. So international travel will absolutely include proof of vaccination, even now you need to give proof of a negative COVID test to board a Gulf flight. These are mostly long haul flights and there is no way you can socially distance where 300 people share 10 bathrooms in economy for more than 10 hours.

US is it's own island in many ways in terms of function and freedoms so far it has worked. But this one will alter freedoms fundamentally I feel and I am torn because I so appreciate the individualism here but I am so tired of the non-masking drama. Walmart enforced masking in my state long before the state did. So I think companies are going to trample individual freedoms before the government will.

I've traveled to dozens of countries (developed and developing) on 6 continents.  Have never once been asked about my vaccination status.  I don't even have vax records on myself.

I guess I won't be traveling for a while if the airlines or foreign countries place this kind of restriction. 

I continue to believe that this is a temporary issue.  By the time the vax has been in use long enough to be considered "tried and true," the virus won't be enough of a threat to justify mandates.  Just my opinion.

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My son said he expects his employer to require it. He’s an accountant. I guess they want to be able to assure clients that whoever they are sending to their site is vaccinated? Not sure what messages they are sending to employees that signal this is coming. Maybe he is just speculating.
 

My dh works in a large corporate office that has announced it is remote work until June at the earliest. I think they will not return until the pandemic is mostly over. I would expect them to strongly encourage it and offer on site vaccinations like they do for flu shots. They have a nurse on site and are big on promoting health and safety.

I know so many anti vaxxers that I just assume there are exemptions and ways around anything so I am not sure how often “required” really means required. 
 

I do know that one state university is serious about requiring a full slate of vaccinations to live on campus. One ds has a homeschooled friend who had to get all his vaccinations when he was 20 yo to attend. He had lived a full life and fully participated in society without a vaccination until that point. He had even played a sport at community college. He was absolutely floored that vaccinations were required but he went ahead and did it so he could attend.(okay I’m sure they didn’t require every single vaccination available but he did have to get most of them)

 

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I think medical people who are not exempt should be required to be vaccinated. Otherwise, people should be given the option of continuing to be socially distanced or taking the vaccine, where that's operationally feasible. (I can imagine situations where an employer might say everyone must continue to be socially distanced, and others where nobody can be and therefore non-exempt people will have to be vaccinated). However, it will be difficult for any mandates to be put in place until the general community can have the vaccine. In the months where it is being rationed, it is likely that an employer won't be able to insist on vaccination unless they've been earmarked for priority (as I expect will happen for medical employment). Otherwise they'll risk getting prosecuted for discrimination on protected characteristics.

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re travel & vaccinations

4 hours ago, SKL said:

I've traveled to dozens of countries (developed and developing) on 6 continents.  Have never once been asked about my vaccination status.  I don't even have vax records on myself.

I guess I won't be traveling for a while if the airlines or foreign countries place this kind of restriction. 

I continue to believe that this is a temporary issue.  By the time the vax has been in use long enough to be considered "tried and true," the virus won't be enough of a threat to justify mandates.  Just my opinion.

We've been to a farflung scope of places as well, and it never once came up until we traveled to a country with a yellow fever problem.  But when we did, we were told repeatedly (prior to entry by the airline when we booked tickets and by both hotel/lodges we booked, at the US airport before departure, and at the Zambia airport upon arrival) that we needed WHO certification of vaccination to enter.  And subsequent to departure, we needed to show the certification repeatedly to enter other countries.  For about a year, I'd say.  (When we got the shots and  WHO certificates the travel clinic told us to staple them to the passports and keep them for 5 years, so we keep carrying them around, but we haven't been asked on arrival for quite some time... my husband FWIW hypothesized that we were coming up in a coordinated WHO database that was lighting up upon arrival through airports and major land borders.  Dunno if that's the case but it makes sense.)

In our own experience, it's ONLY been a yellow fever issue, no other disease. All other vaccinations we've ever had for travel have been "advised," by CDC, on the US side.  Yellow fever has been the only one where vaccination was treated as a condition for entrance or visa.

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7 hours ago, SKL said:

I've traveled to dozens of countries (developed and developing) on 6 continents.  Have never once been asked about my vaccination status.  I don't even have vax records on myself.

I guess I won't be traveling for a while if the airlines or foreign countries place this kind of restriction. 

I continue to believe that this is a temporary issue.  By the time the vax has been in use long enough to be considered "tried and true," the virus won't be enough of a threat to justify mandates.  Just my opinion.

I was curious and went looking to see what is out there the caveat being I did a very fast google and not in depth. What I found was many countries like my native one require quarantine for 14 days which severely limits travel for us because who has time to do so and then barely spend any time when traveling that far. They do not require a prior negative COVID test. Other countries who do require negative COVID test 5 days prior to landing and to show documentation.

https://www.traveloffpath.com/covid-19-entry-requirements-by-country-easy-travelers-guide/

Some airlines like Qatar require it prior to flying. They are one of those that consistently flew during the pandemic though less routes. The consent form looks like this.

https://www.qatarairways.com/content/dam/documents/QR-consent-form-PCR.pdf

I will not be surprised if they ask for documentation of COVID vaccine and more airlines do.

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4 hours ago, Dreamergal said:

I was curious and went looking to see what is out there the caveat being I did a very fast google and not in depth. What I found was many countries like my native one require quarantine for 14 days which severely limits travel for us because who has time to do so and then barely spend any time when traveling that far. They do not require a prior negative COVID test. Other countries who do require negative COVID test 5 days prior to landing and to show documentation.

https://www.traveloffpath.com/covid-19-entry-requirements-by-country-easy-travelers-guide/

Some airlines like Qatar require it prior to flying. They are one of those that consistently flew during the pandemic though less routes. The consent form looks like this.

https://www.qatarairways.com/content/dam/documents/QR-consent-form-PCR.pdf

I will not be surprised if they ask for documentation of COVID vaccine and more airlines do.

I could see them having short-term restrictions, and I have no plans to travel in the short term anyway.  But I would expect the restrictions to be lifted once voluntary vaxes are available generally.

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On 12/2/2020 at 4:49 PM, SeaConquest said:

Why would I care about anti-vax hysterics who are persuaded by social media misinformation? How is that even remotely relevant to policymakers making evidence-based public health decisions? 

I can tell you I won’t be around any homeschool groups anytime soon. I can honestly say the majority of homeschool kids in our area aren’t vaccinated and I am pretty sure won’t be for Covid. 
 

 

And to OP - I think given the level of disruption in the society, it is very possible that vaccines for Covid will be mandated across all sorts of groups - medics, students, teachers. I could even see a concert hall requiring a proof of vaccination before attending a concert. Or large sports events asking for vaccine cards, because some of those industries have been so fundamentally affected (concert halls closed for almost a year), they will do anything in their power to prove they are safe to get customers back. 
 

Edited by Roadrunner
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11 hours ago, Roadrunner said:

I can tell you I won’t be around any homeschool groups anytime soon. I can honestly say the majority of homeschool kids in our area aren’t vaccinated and I am pretty sure won’t be for Covid. 
 

 

And to OP - I think given the level of disruption in the society, it is very possible that vaccines for Covid will be mandated across all sorts of groups - medics, students, teachers. I could even see a concert hall requiring a proof of vaccination before attending a concert. Or large sports events asking for vaccine cards, because some of those industries have been so fundamentally affected (concert halls closed for almost a year), they will do anything in their power to prove they are safe to get customers back. 
 

Unfortunately, California has a very large and very vocal antivax community. Thankfully, parent advocacy groups like Vaccinate California https://www.facebook.com/groups/VaccinateCA https://vaccinatecalifornia.org/ have been working very hard to lobby for evidence-based solutions to combat the problem. Attorney supermama, Leah Russin, is the executive director and one of the co-founders of Vaccinate California. She's up in the Bay Area and worked directly with State Senator (and pediatrician) Dr. Pan to craft SB 277 and SB 276, which have served as models for other states in eliminating other so-called "personal belief" exemptions. Leah is a tireless advocate for children's health. She and I have worked together in vaccine outreach and education -- normally when she needs a media contact to discuss vaccines and homeschooling or to serve as a San Diego media contact for science-based vaccine related inquiries.

Suffice to say, my outspoken stance on vaccines has made me very unpopular with some in the SD homeschooling community -- so much so that I was actually banned from Ronen's charter school's (Inspire, of course) parents FB group. The cabal of antivaxers that run the group never responded to my join request and actually blocked me to try to stop me from knowing the group exists (I was told by others in the group why I was blocked). It's such a juvenile echo chamber. So yeah, I feel badly for my kids that vaccines have become so divisive in our community, but with Covid, I feel more strongly than ever about the importance of vaccination (barring a legit medical exemption).      

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5 hours ago, Roadrunner said:

@SeaConquest and (we are also in CA) most vocal of those anti vaccination parents are super educated and often scientists. I just don’t associate with local homeschoolers at all anymore. It’s a lonely life out here. 

I haven't found that to be the case at all. I've mostly seen people duped by anti-vax misinformation that seems scientific, but is actually cherry-picked data put forth by people who are selling books, ad clicks, natural products, "vaccine-injured" conferences/seminars, holistic treatments, etc. I don't know any folks who are legit MDs/PhDs in immunology, virology, or epidemiology (i.e. they haven't had their published work retracted or their medical license suspended/on probation) that are anti-vaccine or are protesting vaccine legislation. I have seen a lot of idiot nurses, who clearly didn't learn much in nursing school or their pre-reqs, and a lot of the muh-freedom crowd, which overlaps quite a bit with the anti-mask folks. These people have become increasingly frustrated by the Democratic supermajority running the state, the Covid-related executive orders put in place by Newsom, the recent spate of anti-charter legislation (agree with them on that), and the high cost of living in the state (it's Cali -- everyone is always kvetching about that), so I see many of them moving to TX or AZ for "medical freedom" and lower housing costs.  

Edited by SeaConquest
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38 minutes ago, Roadrunner said:

@SeaConquest and (we are also in CA) most vocal of those anti vaccination parents are super educated and often scientists. I just don’t associate with local homeschoolers at all anymore. It’s a lonely life out here. 

While most anti-vaxxers I met while living in California were not super-educated or scientists, the scientist-types I met who were anti-vax tended not to have specialized biology/virology/epidemiology etc. They tended to be PhDs in comp sci or engineering who seemed to thinking knowing a lot about one thing made them specialists in everything. As always, don't follow the scientist, follow the science.

Emily

Edited by EmilyGF
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1 hour ago, EmilyGF said:

While most anti-vaxxers I met while living in California were not super-educated or scientists, the scientist-types I met who were anti-vax tended not to have specialized biology/virology/epidemiology etc. They tended to be PhDs in comp sci or engineering who seemed to thinking knowing a lot about one thing made them specialists in everything. As always, don't follow the scientist, follow the science.

Emily

This is very true. 
I find a stereotypical one to be an upper income, mostly white college educated and super crunchy parents, the ones that usually form long lines at Waldorf schools. Types that my dietary choice of serving a vegetable that might not always be organic means my family is ostracized and their kids aren’t allowed to touch anything out of my hand. 😉

I know couple with PHDs in (environmental science or ecology) who commend leadership roles in the homeschooling group by the virtue of their PHDs and are lost vehement anti vaxxers. Can’t argue with them, because you know, they have PHDs. 
My sample size is tiny and largely determined by local demographics. 

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On 12/2/2020 at 1:40 PM, SeaConquest said:

I wish I could say that I agree with you, but unfortunately, if we couldn't even find the wherewithal to mandate masks, I seriously doubt you are going to find much in the way of government mandates re vaccines. IMO, it will be left to employers, airlines, and schools to decide, in a piecemeal fashion, with no national strategy or requirement. I asked some of my coworkers, at the hospital where I work, if they planned to get the vaccine and their responses were very disconcerting. So, I am really hoping that we have employer mandates for Covid vaccines (as we do for flu) in healthcare.  

Exactly, especially given the fact that anti-vaccine stuff comes from both the right and the left, at least in my state. While only a small minority on the right here is anti-mask, we have one of the lowest vaccination rates in the country and last time they tried to tighten things up there was outrage from people on both sides, although the majority of lawmakers who were opposed were Rs.

But I’m pretty sure most hospital systems here will require the vaccine as they do for flu with masking required if not.

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I think a lot of businesses will soon be requiring it for employees and customers.  I don't think any vaccine that has not been proven to prevent person-to-person transmission should be mandated by any business or the government, though.  If a vaccine only decreases symptoms in the recipient, that person should be able to make a decision with his/her healthcare provider to take the vaccine or not.  

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