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The Vaccine Thread


JennyD

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12 minutes ago, Faith-manor said:

Katie, 😥😥😥

But tell them wholeheartedly that an acquaintance from Michigan wants to say "Thank you so much for living Love your Neighbor, and making that effort!" We don't have churches in this area making any kind of an effort at all, and if anything, actively work against public health measures.

https://www.michigan.gov/coronavirus/0,9753,7-406-98178_103214-565408--,00.html

I stopped counting after I found 5 churches on this list, fwiw. Maybe one is near you?

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8 minutes ago, BronzeTurtle said:

https://www.michigan.gov/coronavirus/0,9753,7-406-98178_103214-565408--,00.html

I stopped counting after I found 5 churches on this list, fwiw. Maybe one is near you?

Nope.

 

But, my entire family is vaccinated. We don't need that. I was responding from the fact that the churches in my area are actually again public health measures and have been vectors of covid outbreaks. That's all. I know how disappointed Katie must be because it had been so hard in Florida this summer!

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17 minutes ago, Faith-manor said:

Nope.

 

But, my entire family is vaccinated. We don't need that. I was responding from the fact that the churches in my area are actually again public health measures and have been vectors of covid outbreaks. That's all. I know how disappointed Katie must be because it had been so hard in Florida this summer!

Oh sorry, I thought you said you were in Michigan, and meant no churches  in Michigan were offering vax clinics. I misunderstood. Good they are there for people who do need them and might be skeptical, and like ksera said, dollar stores are probably great for many of the majority demographics of the unvaxxed.
 

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14 minutes ago, BronzeTurtle said:

Oh sorry, I thought you said you were in Michigan, and these churches are in various cities in Michigan. Good they are there for people who do need them and might be skeptical, and like ksera said, dollar stores are probably great for many of the majority demographics of the unvaxxed.
 

I am in Michigan. I am in a remote area in which, unfortunately, churches have actually been against public health measures, preach that masks are a mark of the beast, and that the government is chipping people and taking the vax means you are not a christian. Many churches have had large, covid outbreaks. I was just expressing my thanks that her church was thinking of others and supporting vaccination. They also have lots of safety protocols for their children's programs. So I am just in general, impressed with her church. Just an expression of gratitude for a church taking such a proactive measure given how very hard things have been in Florida the last three months.

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3 hours ago, Corraleno said:

It will be interesting to compare the long term efficacy of Pfizer and Moderna in kids. They both tested 100 µg doses in adults as well as lower doses, but Pfizer decided to go with 30 µg due to lower side effects, while Moderna stuck with 100, and it appears that Moderna does not wane as quickly. The difference in the dose for kids is even greater: Pfizer is using 10 µg for ages 5-11 and Moderna is using 50 µg for ages 6-12. So 6 year olds who get Moderna will be getting a much higher dose than adults who got Pfizer.

Yes it will.  I am sad that I don't have a choice.  I mean I do I guess.  But I got Pfizer for my teens back in May.  If I knew what I know now I would want them to have Moderna, but there isn't even that option.  I would want that for my younger kids too.  But again not an option right now.  That is really frustrating to me. 

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2 hours ago, Corraleno said:

Moderna's "booster" dose is actually 50 µg vs 100 µg for a "third" dose. I'm not sure why they went for a half dose for boosters; it's interesting that their booster only increased antibody levels to where they were after the 2nd dose, while Pfizer's booster (which is the same dose as the first two shots, 30 µg) pushed antibody levels much much higher (5-10x higher) than after the second dose. Maybe 3 doses of 100 µg were just too much in terms of side effects? I'm kind of surprised they're going with 50 µg for kids as young as 6.

It's also frustrating that the FDA will not allow people to get boosters (or even a second shot) from a different brand, even though there is tons of data on this from many different countries, all of which have found that it's totally safe. I think Germany is planning to authorize mRNA boosters for anyone who had AZ or J&J. But the FDA won't allow someone who originally got Moderna to get a Pfizer booster, even if they are over 65 with multiple risk factors. I'd be tempted to get a Moderna booster myself if they are approved by the time I hit the 6 month mark, even though I had Pfizer to begin with.

This will be interesting when it comes to my next shot.  I do not plan to take another dose of Moderna.  Maybe they'll have to call it my 3rd shot instead of a booster, since I'd qualify for one of those whenever I decide to come off treatment to get another vaccine dose. 🤷‍♀️

I am so glad my DH and kids got Pfizer, as it's booster actually seems to be more effective, and the lesser side effects a bonus, especially with my male teens.  I don't think Moderna has hit their sweet spot between side effects and efficacy yet and look forward to what changes they may make in the future.

 

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48 minutes ago, Faith-manor said:

I am in Michigan. I am in a remote area in which, unfortunately, churches have actually been against public health measures, preach that masks are a mark of the beast, and that the government is chipping people and taking the vax means you are not a christian. Many churches have had large, covid outbreaks. I was just expressing my thanks that her church was thinking of others and supporting vaccination. They also have lots of safety protocols for their children's programs. So I am just in general, impressed with her church. Just an expression of gratitude for a church taking such a proactive measure given how very hard things have been in Florida the last three months.

That is unfortunate. Sorry I misunderstood what you were saying about your state. Here it is the local unis/colleges that had bad outbreaks. The young feel invincible I suppose, and I guess they are not wrong as cases went high but hospitalizations remained manageable. They did a lot of testing but distancing was a joke. I mean, online class, but if you live and party together stuff gets spread. 

I do fear that things are going to get very hard in a lot of different places over fall and winter. I hope I am wrong.

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3 hours ago, BronzeTurtle said:

Waves of covid come and go in about two months time on average. When I compare Israel's case graph with any other country with a recent wave (with delta), they look almost exactly the same. they peak and decline at about the same times. No, I can't prove that boosters are *not* what made Isreal peak and decline. I know other places that peaked and declined without vaccinations (India) or without boosters (pretty much everywhere besides Israel). 

How about the case rate per population, though? Are you looking at that? And the death rate per population? 

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3 hours ago, Faith-manor said:

Katie, 😥😥😥

But tell them wholeheartedly that an acquaintance from Michigan wants to say "Thank you so much for living Love your Neighbor, and making that effort!" We don't have churches in this area making any kind of an effort at all, and if anything, actively work against public health measures.

Thank you!

It was really disappointing, and we don't know if the second clinic we arranged for will be happening, as the health department may not want to bother, since no one showed up the first time. 

Hopefully it means so many people in the area are vaxed already..but I doubt it. 

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4 minutes ago, ktgrok said:

Thank you!

It was really disappointing, and we don't know if the second clinic we arranged for will be happening, as the health department may not want to bother, since no one showed up the first time. 

Hopefully it means so many people in the area are vaxed already..but I doubt it. 

Maybe you can give some people boosters. I doubt you can reach the hardcore anti-vaxxers 😕 . 

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1 hour ago, melmichigan said:

I am so glad my DH and kids got Pfizer, as it's booster actually seems to be more effective, and the lesser side effects a bonus, especially with my male teens.  I don't think Moderna has hit their sweet spot between side effects and efficacy yet and look forward to what changes they may make in the future.

Do you think they should have used a lower dose? I'm feeling opposite, as I'm feeling very lucky now that all but one of us ended up with Moderna. On the other hand, the lower Pfizer dose does seem it might be a better idea for young men. I'm thinking longer spacing might turn out to be really helpful, but when you're in the middle of a pandemic, what are you supposed to do?

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Just now, KSera said:

Do you think they should have used a lower dose? I'm feeling opposite, as I'm feeling very lucky now that all but one of us ended up with Moderna. On the other hand, the lower Pfizer dose does seem it might be a better idea for young men. I'm thinking longer spacing might turn out to be really helpful, but when you're in the middle of a pandemic, what are you supposed to do?

I do feel like all this will get sorted out in a bit, but you can't really wait for the perfect data in the middle of a pandemic, as you say. 

I'm pretty glad I didn't get Moderna, since Pfizer hit me super hard. 

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2 hours ago, melmichigan said:

This will be interesting when it comes to my next shot.  I do not plan to take another dose of Moderna.  Maybe they'll have to call it my 3rd shot instead of a booster, since I'd qualify for one of those whenever I decide to come off treatment to get another vaccine dose. 🤷‍♀️

I am so glad my DH and kids got Pfizer, as it's booster actually seems to be more effective, and the lesser side effects a bonus, especially with my male teens.  I don't think Moderna has hit their sweet spot between side effects and efficacy yet and look forward to what changes they may make in the future.

 

In my family we are reading it in the opposite way. My wife and son both got Pfizer and I got Moderna. At the time I (and we) thought they got the ever-so-slightly better vaccine--and I was glad for it, since they were more exposed than I.

But the efficacy numbers in recent times has shifted the impression. Now they look at me like the one who got the somewhat better vaccine with Delta in the picture.

Bill

 

 

 

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5 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

I do feel like all this will get sorted out in a bit, but you can't really wait for the perfect data in the middle of a pandemic, as you say. 

I'm pretty glad I didn't get Moderna, since Pfizer hit me super hard. 

N=3 but wife and son were both knocked down for a full day after shot #2, where I only had a headache for a couple of hours and then rebounded. Perhaps I'm just old and lack a stronger immune system?

Bill

 

 

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1 minute ago, Spy Car said:

In my family we are reading it in the opposite way. My wife and son both got Pfizer and I got Moderna. At the time I (and we) thought they got the ever-so-slightly better vaccine--and I was glad for it, since they were more exposed than I.

But the efficacy numbers in recent times has shifted the impression. Now they look at me like the one who got the somewhat better vaccine with Delta in the picture.

Bill

 

 

 

Same here. My husband, who didn't want JnJ, but got in the system after I did and by the time he got his appointment was all they had left on hand, thinks I won the jackpot with Moderna, so to speak. I really, really want a Moderna or Pfizer dose for him, and for my son who got JnJ the same day.

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1 minute ago, Faith-manor said:

Same here. My husband, who didn't want JnJ, but got in the system after I did and by the time he got his appointment was all they had left on hand, thinks I won the jackpot with Moderna, so to speak. I really, really want a Moderna or Pfizer dose for him, and for my son who got JnJ the same day.

I hope you get your men boosters soon.

Bill

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1 minute ago, Spy Car said:

In my family we are reading it in the opposite way. My wife and son both got Pfizer and I got Moderna. At the time I (and we) thought they got the ever-so-slightly better vaccine--and I was glad for it, since they were more exposed than I.

But the efficacy numbers in recent times has shifted the impression. Now they look at me like the one who got the somewhat better vaccine with Delta in the picture.

Bill

 

 

 

In this place in time, you have a slight advantage, but a third booster of Pfizer is looking a lot better than a third half dose of Moderna.  The third Moderna is only bring levels back up to that with the second dose, while the Pfizer booster is raising level 5-10x that of the level after the second dose.'

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3 minutes ago, Spy Car said:

N=3 but wife and son were both knocked down for a full day after shot #2, where I only had a headache for a couple of hours and then rebounded. Perhaps I'm just old and lack a stronger immune system?

Bill

Well, everyone does react differently. 

I know someone who got Pfizer for the first two shots and Moderna for the booster, and she said that Moderna kicked her butt in a way that Pfizer did not. 

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Just now, melmichigan said:

In this place in time, you have a slight advantage, but a third booster of Pfizer is looking a lot better than a third half dose of Moderna.  The third Moderna is only bring levels back up to that with the second dose, while the Pfizer booster is raising level 5-10x that of the level after the second dose.'

Were the antibody levels after the first two shots similar for Moderna and Pfizer? Or did the higher Moderna dose produce higher antibodies? 

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And yes, Moderna kicked my rear for a couple of days each time. My JnJers had headaches and nothing more, and my eldest boy had it hard with Pfizer, but then again this is the son we would call "Captain Reactor" as a kid. This one cannot take a vax of any kind and not mount a super strong response. The other Pfizer son had nothing but mildly sore arms. My mom had only a very mild reaction to Moderna. Mother in law had zero response of any kind to JnJ. It was as if she hadn't had the shot.

Despite the fact that Moderna means 36 hours of fevers topping 102 for me, and migraines for two days, an arm on fire for three days with residual pain for two weeks post, and simply going to bed and staying there for 48-72 hrs after, I will gladly take it again.

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11 minutes ago, melmichigan said:

In this place in time, you have a slight advantage, but a third booster of Pfizer is looking a lot better than a third half dose of Moderna.  The third Moderna is only bring levels back up to that with the second dose, while the Pfizer booster is raising level 5-10x that of the level after the second dose.'

If so that is good news for me, as my wife (who is super-highly exposed) already had her third shot of Pfizer. She is the person in our family I'm most worried about. The waning Pfizer numbers combined with her exposure had me very concerned.

I've also had a third (full dose) of Moderna).

Bill

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11 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

Were the antibody levels after the first two shots similar for Moderna and Pfizer? Or did the higher Moderna dose produce higher antibodies? 

Thats my question as well. I suspect that Moderna's numbers were higher to begin with. I know that Pfizer trialed a 100 microgram dose as well as the 30, but they felt the 30 dose provided the best balance of protection and side effects. So they may have been aware that antibody levels would be lower with the 30 dose, but the trial indicated that the level of protection it provided was more than adequate against the original strain. Then Delta changed the equation.

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15 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

Well, everyone does react differently. 

I know someone who got Pfizer for the first two shots and Moderna for the booster, and she said that Moderna kicked her butt in a way that Pfizer did not. 

Everyone is different. The third (full) dose of Moderna was uneventful. Just like the first. Mild sore arm. That's it.

Bill

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1 minute ago, Spy Car said:

Everyone is different. The third (full) dose of Moderna was uneventful. Just like the first. Mild sore arm. That's it.

Bill

I'm hoping for the same thing for my third dose of Pfizer. 

By the way, there was almost no one getting a vaccine at the pharmacy I went to. It was a total ghost town. 

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The little boy I mentioned previously who came to school with Covid in my wife's class, and whose healthy young (but unvaccinated) father then died of Covid, evidently calls out for his daddy and cries all day at school.

So much for the "theory" that children with profound autism don't form attachments. My wife is heartbroken. He is such a sweet boy. But traumatized.

Bill

 

 

 

 

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Just now, Spy Car said:

The little boy I mentioned previously who came to school with Covid in my wife's class, and whose healthy young (but unvaccinated) father then died of Covid, evidently calls out for his daddy and cries all day at school.

So much for the "theory" that children with profound autism don't form attachments. My wife is heartbroken. He is such a sweet boy. But traumatized.

Bill

 

 

 

 

😥 Heartbreaking

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5 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

I'm hoping for the same thing for my third dose of Pfizer. 

By the way, there was almost no one getting a vaccine at the pharmacy I went to. It was a total ghost town. 

My (eventual) dose was going to be thrown away as people were not showing.

Bill

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5 minutes ago, Spy Car said:

My (eventual) dose was going to be thrown away as people were not showing.

Bill

I have no idea how many doses this pharmacy had, but unless it's a very small number, they ain't getting used. 

And this is a day you'd expect an uptick of interest, due to the FDA cautiously suggesting boosters for older folks! 

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4 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

I have no idea how many doses this pharmacy had, but unless it's a very small number, they ain't getting used. 

And this is a day you'd expect an uptick of interest, due to the FDA cautiously suggesting boosters for older folks! 

I hope you took some off their hands.

Bill

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25 minutes ago, Corraleno said:

So they may have been aware that antibody levels would be lower with the 30 dose, but the trial indicated that the level of protection it provided was more than adequate against the original strain. Then Delta changed the equation.

Right, and also there was no way for them to know how long protection would last at the various dose levels until that much time had gone by. I think we still don't know what protection would be looking like at 6-8 months-a year if we had stopped at Alpha.

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On 9/19/2021 at 9:26 PM, Corraleno said:

No I've been looking for that information but haven't found it. I think it's ridiculous that so many are pediatric MDs though. And the VP of Merck* gets a vote??? Maybe they should have had some pulmonologists, cardiologists, and critical care specialists on the committee instead.

*(Merck is currently developing anti-covid drugs, btw, and would benefit from fewer Americans getting boosters)

You can go to the link below and watch the entire eight hours of presentations, discussions, and voting.  The first vote is at about the 7 hour mark and the votes are read for each voting member.  You can also see the exact wording on what the committee was charged with voting on and then hear their discussion of why they voted the way they did.  

Overall, the committee had concerns that the clinical trial was comprised of just over 300 people which they did not see as enough to detect possible side effects of the vaccination, especially in the 16-18 year old population.  

 

 

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I took a break from this thread for a few days so I don't know if this was posted. The UK is starting to vaccinate young teenagers with a single Pfizer dose, to try to balance the small risk of myocarditis - more common with second dose - against the low risk of unvaccinated teenagers getting seriously ill with Covid. Reducing educational disruption was also considered.

BBC News - Covid: Single jab recommended for 12 to 15-year-olds by UK's top doctors
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-58547659

As the UK uses an eight to twelve week schedule anyway, there's time to review during the winter.

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On 9/20/2021 at 7:16 AM, ktgrok said:

There is a HUGE difference between hypothetically approving something that isn't safe vs saying something is safe, but they don't think it is necessary (yet).  They are being uber cautious, which does not mean they would approve things without thinking it was safe - in fact it means the opposite. 

And none of us are second guessing what they are saying about the safety or efficacy of the vaccines. The FDA has accepted that they are safe and do increase immunity - so we really are NOT arguing with them about that, or doubting them. We who are pro booster are in agreement with them as to the safety and efficacy of it. We just disagree on if it that increased immunity is worth the financial and political cost of having everyone get boosters. 

That is VERY different than if they had said that these boosters were not helpful, didn't improve immunity, were probably dangerous, etc and then we all said, "nope, you lie they are fantastic". 

i watched the eight hours of the meeting and I did not conclude that this advisory committee accepted that the booster is safe.  There were only about 300 people in the clinical trial.  If an adverse event occurs in 1 in 500 people the trial size is not large enough to detect that event. There were also questions on whether the benefit to immunity is being measured correctly.  Another topic the committee members raised was whether the same immunity boost could be gained from having two doses spread out longer over time; this was beyond the question that they were tasked with voting on, but many felt that we just don't know what a good schedule for vaccination is and if we can get the same results with two shots spread out more that this would reduce the possbility of adverse events in the younger population.  

In all, the committee seemed to feel strongly that in the older population the benefits of a third dose outweight the risks at this point in time.  They also felt tha the data did not really provide them enough information to define "older".  And, they felt that the data was lacking to measure safety in young people.  

After listening for eight hours I did not hear them discussing economic and political costs.  I did hear a few speakers who had two minutes to express their opinions (not part of the committee) who had political agendas but that was not the committee members. 

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50 minutes ago, Bootsie said:

Another topic the committee members raised was whether the same immunity boost could be gained from having two doses spread out longer over time; this was beyond the question that they were tasked with voting on, but many felt that we just don't know what a good schedule for vaccination is and if we can get the same results with two shots spread out more that this would reduce the possbility of adverse events in the younger population.

But with over half the population fully vaccinated, that particular decision doesn’t help any of those people at all, so that’s confusing to me that that was part of this hearing. It’s certainly a really important discussion for them to figure out, but it’s not the one that’s going to help us right now at all. No one considering a booster isn’t already fully vaccinated. No one can go back and take their second dose at a longer interval.

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25 minutes ago, KSera said:

But with over half the population fully vaccinated, that particular decision doesn’t help any of those people at all, so that’s confusing to me that that was part of this hearing. It’s certainly a really important discussion for them to figure out, but it’s not the one that’s going to help us right now at all. No one considering a booster isn’t already fully vaccinated. No one can go back and take their second dose at a longer interval.

Right, that’s just a pointless discussion. Frankly, so is the one about how it’d be better to use the doses on the unvaccinated. I mean, yes, it would, but that has no bearing on the question!!

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6 minutes ago, KSera said:

But with over half the population fully vaccinated, that particular decision doesn’t help any of those people at all, so that’s confusing to me that that was part of this hearing. It’s certainly a really important discussion for them to figure out, but it’s not the one that’s going to help us right now at all. No one considering a booster isn’t already fully vaccinated. No one can go back and take their second dose at a longer interval.

It is especially important for the younger population that is not vaccinated yet.  That was not a decision made by the hearing committee anyway.  It was something that they mentioned as regards to what they would like to see in a study to draw good conclusions.  What this committee was tasked with voting on was a very narrow question. 

I think part of the confusion was that this committee was not tasked with making a broad policy of what is the best thing to do right now is.  They were tasked with drawing a conclusion of whether the results of Pfizer's clinical trial show that the benefits outweigh the risk of a third dose.  The committee discussed the results of the clinical trial, raised questions about methodolgy and discussed what kinds of things would make them comfortable or what type of data they would like to see.  The committee asked a lot of questions regarding exactly what the question they were posed meant; it is not simply OKing a booster for those already vaccinated, it was deciding whether the benefits and risks warrant the protocol being a three shot series going forward.

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21 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

Right, that’s just a pointless discussion. Frankly, so is the one about how it’d be better to use the doses on the unvaccinated. I mean, yes, it would but that has no bearing on the question!!

I did not hear the committee discussing that when I listened to the meeting.  There was a period of open comments that others outside the committee promoted that idea.  I saw no indiction that those comments had a bearing on the question

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Below is the the question the committee was tasked with answering.  My impression from listening to the meeting is that the committee was frustrated from the lack of good data to answer this question.  They wanted to do something but were not comfortable answer this question in the affirmative. They asked if they could form another question that would target the population that they felt they did have information.  (The youngest age in the clinical trial was 19.)

 

image.thumb.png.62c05dcf789d999fc429f4ef688ae6b5.png

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