The Vaccine Thread

[Spy Car]

15 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

This panel decision means I’m gonna go find a pharmacy that’ll give me an illicit booster. I don’t want a chance to infect my kids.

I'm very sorry to learn that you have recently contracted Primary Immunodeficiency Disease and that it is idiopathic in its nature.

I hope you get the care you need.

Bill

 

 

[RootAnn]

Let's engage in a short thought experiment. Let's say that by the end of this year, the US vaccinates 98% of our population through mandates. Some booster dosages have been given to the most vulnerable but not everyone in the general population.

Based on our expert Hive member's understanding, what is the expected outcome?

 

 

 

I can absolutely say that it seems certain people are implying (without explicitly saying it) that if "everyone" (including kids ages 5 & up) who can do so gets vaccinated, Covid will go away & we can all go back to normal. No one has actually said that, but the impression has been made.

I can see the righteous anger against anyone standing in the way of that (impossible) dream.

But that isn't actually possible. Even if it were possible to achieve 95+% vaccination levels (not including boosters) for six month olds & up in the US with the original covid vaccines, the rest of the world is still dealing with covid. Mutations are inevitable. The US isn't going to keep their borders closed to trade, tourists, or refugees. (I read that 200,000 people allegedly entered the US as undocumented immigrants just last month. So add that to regular traffic.) People will keep coming into the US carrying covid & since the current vaccines are not (and never were) 100% effective at keeping people from getting infected or transmitting covid, there will always be new strains of covid circulating, including probably at least one vaccine-resistant mutation. Add in waning immunity & increasing vaccine hesitancy, you are fighting a losing battle.

IMO, covid is here to stay no matter the percentage of US citizens fully vaccinated. Anyone telling you differently is trying to sell you something.

Since there is absolutely no way the US will reach a status of 95%+ of fully vaccinated (even if just adults), this thought experiment is moot. My point is that the anger against people who won't get vaccinated is pointless if that anger is based in thinking those people are keeping us from bring able to tamp down covid.

For those who want to get upset at me for this opinion, I will add that I have a vaccinated elderly mom who, except for recovering from her recent hip surgery, is in pretty good health. If she catches & dies from covid, the experts will chalk her death up to as an old person who would have died soon anyway. She could instead live 10-15 more years in good health. I don't like people dismissing the deaths of older fully vaccinated people with off-hand comments about how most fully vaccinated people who are dying are elderly or have underlying health conditions. Many or most of those people could have had many years of quality life left in them. Thus, I've given a lot of thought to the present, the last 18 months, and the future. My family, including my mom, are living life in a modified fashion now that we can live (or die) with longer-term. Life needs to be liveable. And being angry & depressed a lot of the time at what it looks like we are facing long-term isn't something we want tainting whatever time we have to live. That is our family's outlook. Your outlook will likely differ. I'm sharing what mine has determined recently after much study,  thought, discussion, & prayer.

[Not_a_Number]

9 minutes ago, RootAnn said:

But that isn't actually possible. Even if it were possible to achieve 95+% vaccination levels (not including boosters) for six month olds & up in the US with the original covid vaccines, the rest of the world is still dealing with covid. Mutations are inevitable. The US isn't going to keep their borders closed to trade, tourists, or refugees. (I read that 200,000 people allegedly entered the US as undocumented immigrants just last month. So add that to regular traffic.) People will keep coming into the US carrying covid & since the current vaccines are not (and never were) 100% effective at keeping people from getting infected or transmitting covid, there will always be new strains of covid circulating, including probably at least one vaccine-resistant mutation. Add in waning immunity & increasing vaccine hesitancy, you are fighting a losing battle.

Well, technically, if the vaccines are enough to get Rt under 1, we'd at the very least get a real reprieve while that's the case, like Israel did. And in the meantime, possibly other good things would happen, like more antiviral drugs, better understanding of long COVID, mutation-aimed booster shots, etc. 

And it does currently look like vaccinated people spread to fewer than 1 person on average. So... this isn't just a theory. 

[KSera]

1 hour ago, RootAnn said:

My point is that the anger against people who won't get vaccinated is pointless if that anger is based in thinking those people are keeping us from bring able to tamp down covid.

 

It's at least two things for me. First, at this point, it appears it absolutely would lower transmission and lower the risk to everyone if everyone was vaccinated. I haven't seen any model that doesn't come to this conclusion. So, that's a big one. Besides that though, so many people are becoming very ill from covid due to not being vaccinated that our hospitals are not able to handle the strain. There are places in the US that are starting to ration care, and many, many places it's very hard to get emergency care. People have died as a result. Other people are having seriously life-imapacting surgeries delayed or cancelled because the hospital is too full with Covid patients to be able to do anything but immediately life saving surgeries. The impact on the health care workers who are dealing with all this is a third reason worth being upset about this. The impact on children who are losing parents because the parents have been misled into thinking the vaccine is some plot and they can "show the system" by refusing the vaccine, and instead they die, is another reason to be upset. There are just a lot of reasons to be extremely frustrated that people are actively refusing to get vaccinated, almost entirely for reasons that aren't even true.

[frogger]

3 hours ago, RootAnn said:

Let's engage in a short thought experiment. Let's say that by the end of this year, the US vaccinates 98% of our population through mandates. Some booster dosages have been given to the most vulnerable but not everyone in the general population.

Based on our expert Hive member's understanding, what is the expected outcome?

 

 

 

I can absolutely say that it seems certain people are implying (without explicitly saying it) that if "everyone" (including kids ages 5 & up) who can do so gets vaccinated, Covid will go away & we can all go back to normal. No one has actually said that, but the impression has been made.

I can see the righteous anger against anyone standing in the way of that (impossible) dream.

But that isn't actually possible. Even if it were possible to achieve 95+% vaccination levels (not including boosters) for six month olds & up in the US with the original covid vaccines, the rest of the world is still dealing with covid. Mutations are inevitable. The US isn't going to keep their borders closed to trade, tourists, or refugees. (I read that 200,000 people allegedly entered the US as undocumented immigrants just last month. So add that to regular traffic.) People will keep coming into the US carrying covid & since the current vaccines are not (and never were) 100% effective at keeping people from getting infected or transmitting covid, there will always be new strains of covid circulating, including probably at least one vaccine-resistant mutation. Add in waning immunity & increasing vaccine hesitancy, you are fighting a losing battle.

IMO, covid is here to stay no matter the percentage of US citizens fully vaccinated. Anyone telling you differently is trying to sell you something.

Since there is absolutely no way the US will reach a status of 95%+ of fully vaccinated (even if just adults), this thought experiment is moot. My point is that the anger against people who won't get vaccinated is pointless if that anger is based in thinking those people are keeping us from bring able to tamp down covid.

For those who want to get upset at me for this opinion, I will add that I have a vaccinated elderly mom who, except for recovering from her recent hip surgery, is in pretty good health. If she catches & dies from covid, the experts will chalk her death up to as an old person who would have died soon anyway. She could instead live 10-15 more years in good health. I don't like people dismissing the deaths of older fully vaccinated people with off-hand comments about how most fully vaccinated people who are dying are elderly or have underlying health conditions. Many or most of those people could have had many years of quality life left in them. Thus, I've given a lot of thought to the present, the last 18 months, and the future. My family, including my mom, are living life in a modified fashion now that we can live (or die) with longer-term. Life needs to be liveable. And being angry & depressed a lot of the time at what it looks like we are facing long-term isn't something we want tainting whatever time we have to live. That is our family's outlook. Your outlook will likely differ. I'm sharing what mine has determined recently after much study,  thought, discussion, & prayer.

I can't say what most people here think. I believe I definitely see it differently than many here.  My guess is that it is with us long term but who knows.

My frustration right now is people dying right now while waiting for care. Our local hospital is currently rationing care and deciding who gets care. People wait hours and hours in the parking lot with life threatening conditions. Our rural hospitals with very little capabilities are no longer able to transfer to our city hospitals.

Some of this is the fault of the unvaccinated and some is the bureaucratic nature of healthcare in this country. There would definitely be more capacity if their were a lot fewer Covid patients!

We have needed to increase capacity for over a decade but haven't bothered.

 

Every politician who isn't working towards increasing health care supply right now is completely worthless and ought to be voted out. 

Ideas that aren't completely researched and may be off base but I would be interested in learning more about are:

Figure out how to increase residencies pronto for doctors. This doesn't mean building new teaching hospitals but figuring how to make more positions available in a wider variety of hospitals. We have a back log of those with medical degrees who can't get residencies. 

Increase positions in both med schools and nursing schools. There are perfectly good 4.0 smart articulate students turned down all the time due to spacing issues. I realize this depends on location. 

Cut ridiculous restrictions and limit liabilities. Maybe a good Samaritan law for those who can care for people at home. My best friend's grandfather is trying to stay home and would get better care at home than an over run understaffed hospital but they are very restricted in what they can provide at home as a lot of things are supposed to be done under watch at a clinic. Better he gets nothing at all than get cared for by two licensed RN's who are family and are currently practicing! 🙄 Perhaps, if people had more freedom to care for their own health, hospitals would stand more of a chance.

ICC should mean if you get a doctor or business license in one state, it should be valid in all. 

I'm sure there is more.  I wish voter's would start demanding action and writing their representatives.

It isn't right in the meanwhile that someone who needs their lungs drained daily is now getting it a few times a week knowing this causes damage. That a person will die of an appendicitis because workers are scrambling around and who is going to pay much attention to the guy waiting for his turn in the parking lot with abdominal pain. The stroke victim that will never speak again. 

So yes, I'm annoyed with the unvaccinated taking beds but I'm also very annoyed that more hasn't been done (I know some has but not enough) to increase health care worker supply. I can't say unvaccinated mask less crusaders are helping because more and more medical workers are quitting because they are fed up with people who don't care to be helpful in anyway. Some are quitting because vaccine mandates. 🙄 I'm very disappointed in our citizens. 

People need to be able to live. Children need an education. We can't just shut down until this all goes away. I very much agree with you that vaccines are probably not going to make this just all go away but I can also understand the frustration, especially for those who are not getting the treatment they need to live long term or if the lack of treatment will dramatically affect their future quality of life. It is understandable why people are angry.

 

Just my opinion. 😊

Don't know how to erase smiley. 

Edited September 18, 2021 by frogger

[Corraleno]

2 hours ago, RootAnn said:

My point is that the anger against people who won't get vaccinated is pointless if that anger is based in thinking those people are keeping us from bring able to tamp down covid.

Unvaccinated people ARE keeping us from being able to tamp covid down. I mean that is not even debatable — 85% of cases, 95% of hospitalizations, and 96% of deaths are unvaccinated. If everyone was vaccinated, then the case rate would be vastly lower and there would be very few covid patients clogging up hospitals and monopolizing resources. If everyone was vaccinated, then HCWs wouldn't be exhausted, angry, demoralized and quitting in droves, which is going to have severe consequences for the future of healthcare in this country. If everyone was vaccinated, then people who need those beds for other reasons wouldn't be dying in the ER or postponing critical surgery. If everyone was vaccinated, tens of thousands of children that have already lost, or will lose, one or both parents would not have their lives irreparably damaged. If everyone was vaccinated, schools wouldn't be shutting down for weeks at a time, with children sent home to quarantine and teachers dying.

There was an AMA on reddit today with many HCWs who deal directly with covid patients. They talked about not being able to sleep at night because they hear the alarms in their dreams and it constantly wakes them up. They talked about being harassed and yelled at by patients who don't want to believe what's happening and by family members demanding that patients be given treatments they saw on Facebook. One nurse said they have lost a huge percentage of their staff because they are so traumatized they just can't take it anymore — she said they have ICU rooms being used for storage because they can't staff them. One nurse said she throws up every morning before she goes to work because it's like walking into a war zone. Another said they had 13 deaths last week, of which 12 were covid patients and 11 were unvaccinated. They talked about how it feels to look into the terrified eyes of a patient who's about to be intubated knowing the odds of coming off the vent alive are in the single digits, and the emotional toll it takes to hold cell phones and iPads while sobbing families say goodbye. 

The idea that refusing to vaccinate is a "personal choice" that doesn't affect anyone else is a bald-faced lie. It's a "choice" that is causing PTSD in thousands of HCWs and exacerbating shortages that will have repercussions for decades to come. It's traumatizing children whose lives are forever changed because their parent(s) decided that giving the government a you're-not-the-boss-of-me middle finger was more important than being there to see them grow up. It's costing billions of dollars to treat people whose hospitalizations and deaths were almost entirely preventable, and it's going to result in long-term health problems for a significant percentage of those who survive it. It's selfish, it's based on lies and misinformation, and it's causing irreparable damage that this country may never recover from. Damn right people are mad about it.

 

[Pawz4me]

8 hours ago, RootAnn said:

Let's engage in a short thought experiment. Let's say that by the end of this year, the US vaccinates 98% of our population through mandates. Some booster dosages have been given to the most vulnerable but not everyone in the general population.

Based on our expert Hive member's understanding, what is the expected outcome?

 

 

 

I can absolutely say that it seems certain people are implying (without explicitly saying it) that if "everyone" (including kids ages 5 & up) who can do so gets vaccinated, Covid will go away & we can all go back to normal. No one has actually said that, but the impression has been made.

I can see the righteous anger against anyone standing in the way of that (impossible) dream.

But that isn't actually possible. Even if it were possible to achieve 95+% vaccination levels (not including boosters) for six month olds & up in the US with the original covid vaccines, the rest of the world is still dealing with covid. Mutations are inevitable. The US isn't going to keep their borders closed to trade, tourists, or refugees. (I read that 200,000 people allegedly entered the US as undocumented immigrants just last month. So add that to regular traffic.) People will keep coming into the US carrying covid & since the current vaccines are not (and never were) 100% effective at keeping people from getting infected or transmitting covid, there will always be new strains of covid circulating, including probably at least one vaccine-resistant mutation. Add in waning immunity & increasing vaccine hesitancy, you are fighting a losing battle.

IMO, covid is here to stay no matter the percentage of US citizens fully vaccinated. Anyone telling you differently is trying to sell you something.

Since there is absolutely no way the US will reach a status of 95%+ of fully vaccinated (even if just adults), this thought experiment is moot. My point is that the anger against people who won't get vaccinated is pointless if that anger is based in thinking those people are keeping us from bring able to tamp down covid.

For those who want to get upset at me for this opinion, I will add that I have a vaccinated elderly mom who, except for recovering from her recent hip surgery, is in pretty good health. If she catches & dies from covid, the experts will chalk her death up to as an old person who would have died soon anyway. She could instead live 10-15 more years in good health. I don't like people dismissing the deaths of older fully vaccinated people with off-hand comments about how most fully vaccinated people who are dying are elderly or have underlying health conditions. Many or most of those people could have had many years of quality life left in them. Thus, I've given a lot of thought to the present, the last 18 months, and the future. My family, including my mom, are living life in a modified fashion now that we can live (or die) with longer-term. Life needs to be liveable. And being angry & depressed a lot of the time at what it looks like we are facing long-term isn't something we want tainting whatever time we have to live. That is our family's outlook. Your outlook will likely differ. I'm sharing what mine has determined recently after much study,  thought, discussion, & prayer.

Pretty much what @Corralenosaid.

I have zero expectation that getting every American 5 and up vaccinated would eliminate Covid. That wouldn't be rational or realistic. I'm kind of flabbergasted that you (or anyone) has the impression that's what the push for vaccination implies.

I have every expectation that getting every American vaccinated would drastically reduce transmission, would eliminate hospital overcrowding and HCW burnout. Once transmission is lower, hospitalizations are lower, hospitals and HCW are no longer in crisis mode . . then we can all fairly safely get back to normal life.

Edited September 18, 2021 by Pawz4me

[pinball]

2 hours ago, Pawz4me said:

Pretty much what @Corralenosaid.

I have zero expectation that getting every American 5 and up vaccinated would eliminate Covid. That wouldn't be rational or realistic. I'm kind of flabbergasted that you (or anyone) has the impression that's what the push for vaccination implies.

I have every expectation that getting every American vaccinated would drastically reduce transmission, would eliminate hospital overcrowding and HCW burnout. Once transmission is lower, hospitalizations are lower, hospitals and HCW are no longer in crisis mode . . then we can all fairly safely get back to normal life.

IOW:

100% vaccination rate to flatten the curve

[Danae]

8 minutes ago, pinball said:

IOW:

100% vaccination rate to flatten the curve

Better than  “oh no, if we do everything possible to prevent people from dying of Covid some people will get sick anyway, so let’s do nothing instead.”

[chiguirre]

15 hours ago, BaseballandHockey said:

I am really confused by what I'm reading.  Is the FDA recommending this, the same as the FDA approving it?

My loved one is 91, second dose of Pfizer was 6 months and a few days ago.  He is adamant that he will get the third dose when it is his "turn" but he won't get it until then.  

So, can I say "it's approved for you!  Get in the car!  We're going to CVS" tomorrow morning?  Or is there another step?

I'd call your local CVS to see what they say. At my local Kroger there is a steady stream of elderly people getting a third shot every time I go to the pharmacy. 

[RootAnn]

2 hours ago, Pawz4me said:

I have zero expectation that getting every American 5 and up vaccinated would eliminate Covid. That wouldn't be rational or realistic. I'm kind of flabbergasted that you (or anyone) has the impression that's what the push for vaccination implies.

You're an expert then. That is not the implied messaging that many people believe. Just like the "get vaccinated & you can go back to normal life" belief that wasn't the message is causing people to feel mislead, the idea that the unvaccinated are keeping the US from being Covid-free is causing frustration and anger among vaccinated individuals.

@frogger I absolutely agree that the country needs to immediately increase space in health care training programs. We have been in a shortage position for a long time and have not increased training capacity as it should have been increased. 

[pinball]

10 minutes ago, Danae said:

Better than  “oh no, if we do everything possible to prevent people from dying of Covid some people will get sick anyway, so let’s do nothing instead.”

Hmmm….there is a name for this…oh, yeah…strawman 

[Not_a_Number]

1 minute ago, RootAnn said:

Just like the "get vaccinated & you can go back to normal life" belief that wasn't the message is causing people to feel mislead, the idea that the unvaccinated are keeping the US from being Covid-free is causing frustration and anger among vaccinated individuals.

I really don't remember anyone talking about the US being entirely COVID-free. People have been talking about it becoming endemic eventually for ages. I think there was a burst of serious enthusiasm when we were showing 95% efficacy rates (I don't blame people there!), but other than that, I remember pretty serious skepticism. 

[ktgrok]

2 minutes ago, RootAnn said:

the idea that the unvaccinated are keeping the US from being Covid-free is causing frustration and anger among vaccinated individuals.

 

They are not keeping us from being Covid free, but they are making things a heck of a lot worse. We could make this country a LOT LOT LOT safer for everyone if even just those who claim to follow a deity that said to pick up one's cross would stop whining about being bossed around and do what is right to protect "the least of these". 

[ScoutTN]

12 hours ago, RootAnn said:

Let's engage in a short thought experiment. Let's say that by the end of this year, the US vaccinates 98% of our population through mandates. Some booster dosages have been given to the most vulnerable but not everyone in the general population.

Based on our expert Hive member's understanding, what is the expected outcome?

 

 

 

I can absolutely say that it seems certain people are implying (without explicitly saying it) that if "everyone" (including kids ages 5 & up) who can do so gets vaccinated, Covid will go away & we can all go back to normal. No one has actually said that, but the impression has been made.

I can see the righteous anger against anyone standing in the way of that (impossible) dream.

But that isn't actually possible. Even if it were possible to achieve 95+% vaccination levels (not including boosters) for six month olds & up in the US with the original covid vaccines, the rest of the world is still dealing with covid. Mutations are inevitable. The US isn't going to keep their borders closed to trade, tourists, or refugees. (I read that 200,000 people allegedly entered the US as undocumented immigrants just last month. So add that to regular traffic.) People will keep coming into the US carrying covid & since the current vaccines are not (and never were) 100% effective at keeping people from getting infected or transmitting covid, there will always be new strains of covid circulating, including probably at least one vaccine-resistant mutation. Add in waning immunity & increasing vaccine hesitancy, you are fighting a losing battle.

IMO, covid is here to stay no matter the percentage of US citizens fully vaccinated. Anyone telling you differently is trying to sell you something.

Since there is absolutely no way the US will reach a status of 95%+ of fully vaccinated (even if just adults), this thought experiment is moot. My point is that the anger against people who won't get vaccinated is pointless if that anger is based in thinking those people are keeping us from bring able to tamp down covid.

For those who want to get upset at me for this opinion, I will add that I have a vaccinated elderly mom who, except for recovering from her recent hip surgery, is in pretty good health. If she catches & dies from covid, the experts will chalk her death up to as an old person who would have died soon anyway. She could instead live 10-15 more years in good health. I don't like people dismissing the deaths of older fully vaccinated people with off-hand comments about how most fully vaccinated people who are dying are elderly or have underlying health conditions. Many or most of those people could have had many years of quality life left in them. Thus, I've given a lot of thought to the present, the last 18 months, and the future. My family, including my mom, are living life in a modified fashion now that we can live (or die) with longer-term. Life needs to be liveable. And being angry & depressed a lot of the time at what it looks like we are facing long-term isn't something we want tainting whatever time we have to live. That is our family's outlook. Your outlook will likely differ. I'm sharing what mine has determined recently after much study,  thought, discussion, & prayer.

But fewer people would die or get long covid and healthcare systems would not be overwhelmed.

That is a reachable goal. Low vax rates are making the current situation a crisis, making it far worse than it needs to be.

Edited September 18, 2021 by ScoutTN

[Danae]

29 minutes ago, pinball said:

Hmmm….there is a name for this…oh, yeah…strawman 

It’s actually the intentional use of a straw man to illustrate a straw man!

 

No one thinks we’re going to eliminate the Covid virus in the next few years, even with buy-in from 100% of the population.  But “we’re going to have to learn to live with it” does not mean we have to just get accustomed to current infection and death rates.  

[chiguirre]

40 minutes ago, RootAnn said:

You're an expert then. That is not the implied messaging that many people believe. Just like the "get vaccinated & you can go back to normal life" belief that wasn't the message is causing people to feel mislead, the idea that the unvaccinated are keeping the US from being Covid-free is causing frustration and anger among vaccinated individuals.

 

Vaccinated people don't have a belief or an idea that the unvaccinated are keeping us from being Covid-free. We have facts on the ground that our local hospitals are overwhelmed, that vaccinated people have died of treatable conditions because of that overwhelm and that the vast majority of that overwhelm is caused by unvaccinated Covid patients.

If the unvaccinated would stay home and take feed store Ivermectin and gargle full strength Betadine, our hospitals wouldn't be overflowing. I feel that if you believed that doctors were lying about Covid, vaccines and effective treatments, you should be consistent and contact America's Frontline Doctors when you are having shortness of breath.

ETA: My local hospitals are overwhelmed by patients coming in from rural areas while local residents are mostly masking up. Our vaccination rate is much better than the surrounding areas. Yet, our local freestanding hospital ERs are shut down because they've pulled all their staff into their main hospitals. That's what's got people angry.

 

Edited September 18, 2021 by chiguirre

[Drama Llama]

. . . 

Edited October 26, 2021 by BaseballandHockey

[pinball]

2 minutes ago, Danae said:

It’s actually the intentional use of a straw man to illustrate a straw man!

 

No one thinks we’re going to eliminate the Covid virus in the next few years, even with buy-in from 100% of the population.  But “we’re going to have to learn to live with it” does not mean we have to just get accustomed to current infection and death rates.  

Maybe you should re-read what I quoted, esp her last paragraph. LOL

And I did not write anything like what you are saying. SMH
 

 

[ktgrok]

6 minutes ago, BaseballandHockey said:

CVS isn't who I'd have trouble convincing.  Pop is. 

Maybe bring it up with his doctor? If he doctor advised a booster would he feel okay getting it then?

[Drama Llama]

. . . 

Edited October 26, 2021 by BaseballandHockey

[Jaybee]

Yesterday, I stopped by the nearby Walgreen's to ask about boosters. The pharmacist I talked with was quite adamant that they would not be giving third doses more widely than immunocompromised until official approval was given. (I am over 60 but not 65, and have Type 2 diabetes. I also have a person in my wider family that I am trying to protect for a specific reason.) She said that when it became official, it would be on the news, and then they would be swamped. I am also in a low vaccination area, so that surprised me a bit. Anyway, she seemed a little like she had been asked that question a few too many times, and was taking a hard line. So just because you want it, doesn't necessarily mean you will be able to get it.

[frogger]

You know @RootAnne , I really fight hating these people. It is really hard not to. Just being honest.  Some of them are my family, my neighbors. I know being combative will not win them over. But it is HARD. It is hard not to just think they are down right evil, at times the thought demon possessed comes across my mind.  I know many are just brainwashed. They weren't like this 10 years ago. I'm sad for my community.  

 

I started typing a description of how my assembly woman treated the Chief of Staff and a co worker but realized it would be best to just link it.  I don't think you want to watch our whole assembly meeting but if you go to the 44 minute marker and watch 10 minutes you can see how vile these people are toward doctor's, the ones who will save their life if needed. A few minutes earlier she questioned why they get 5 whole minutes to speak rather than the 90 seconds despite the fact there is many in the room that the speaker represents.

The clown man behind the doctor's is some kind of strange protestor. They march around town in a strange procession. It is very odd to protest doing what the gov't tells you to when there is no declaration of emergency, no mask mandate, no restrictions. They are protesting stuff that doesn't exist. There are times where masks will get you glares, stares, and angry comments. Private business owners can't require masks because this particular subset of people are combative and don't believe in private property rights, which of course, isn't anything like old conservative values.

RootAnn- many of these people come in and are abusive to the very doctors who treat them as is there family on the outside. If you kept listening past the 10 minutes in that video you will here the doctor testify to that. 

 

It is hard not to see these people as the enemy, traitors to their country and community causing harm to all those about them. My mom won't get a vaccine but she also isn't around many people and cancelled a sewing thing because she happened to be a contact, even though it was a week away even though she didn't get sick. That is very different than these very combative crazies who don't care about others. It is not just that they personally choose to not get the vaccine, they have brainwashed other people to do so too. My younger (but still middle aged) brother has Down Syndrome which makes him very high risk, but my parents are guardians and refuse to allow him to get the vaccine. These liars may very well kill my brother. My brother does not have the cognitive abilities to fight for his rights. I'm actually going to tell him to ask his doctor but really he will obey my parents. 

Edited September 18, 2021 by frogger

[SeaConquest]

Let's just compare California, Texas, and Florida. All states in the Southern part of our country with large populations and warm climates. One of these states, however, looks nothing like the other two re Covid. I wonder why that could be? Could it be a Democratic governor who pushed for mandatory vaccinations, mask mandates, and policies in line with what the scientists recommended at the time? California has now become one of only 3 states to escape the "high transmission" category, along with Vermont and Connecticut. 

https://sfist.com/2021/09/14/california-becomes-one-of-only-three-states-to-exit-the-cdcs/

Vaccines are not a panacea, but they were a major reason why:

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/09/16/us/california-covid-cases.html

And looking at our ridiculous recall election, it was driven by the unvaccinated:

https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2021-09-15/california-recall-results-newsom-coronavirus-vaccination-rates

So yeah, I am screaming mad that these selfish people have not only perpetuated the pandemic, broken our healthcare system, and caused PTSD to my colleagues at work, they cost us nearly $300 million in paying for an unnecessary election. Money that could have been spent on the numerous other serious issues in our state -- e.g., homelessness and the housing crisis, treatment for the opiate epidemic that I see every.single.day at work (perpetuated in part by Congress -- watch the incredible documentary, the Crime of the Century on HBO), etc.

Yes, he ate at the French Laundry, which was terrible optics and a poor decision. I am not going to defend that at all. He also did some stupid things like temporarily shutting down beaches and outdoor rec/parks in the beginning when we didn't know how Covid was spread. But, overall, IMO he gets very good marks in his handling of the pandemic, has saved countless lives, and has invested a ton of money in small business programs, rent relief, vaccination subsidies, state stimulus payments, etc. Far more than any other state due to our extraordinary budget surplus during a time when other states have struggled economically.

And yes, California is losing population. That's a good thing. We cannot sustain our population. We don't have enough housing. We don't have enough water. There is too much traffic and not enough public transportation. So, people are using too many fossil fuels to commute too far of a distance in order to find some place to live, which pushes them too close to animal habitats and dangerous fire areas. And climate change is just going to make all of this worse. People don't want to hear it, but we need people to leave California, and every time I hear about some disgruntled anti-vaxxer moving to Texas for "medical freedom," I personally say, "Thank you, Jesus!" And I'm a Jew. Vaya con Dios. 

[Spy Car]

Smallpox, Polio, Measles, Mumps, Rubella, Pertussis, Diphtheria, Tetanus....

Bill

 

[Corraleno]

2 hours ago, frogger said:

It is hard not to see these people as the enemy, traitors to their country and community causing harm to all those about them. My mom won't get a vaccine but she also isn't around many people and cancelled a sewing thing because she happened to be a contact, even though it was a week away even though she didn't get sick. That is very different than these very combative crazies who don't care about others. It is not just that they personally choose to not get the vaccine, they have brainwashed other people to do so too. My younger (but still middle aged) brother has Down Syndrome which makes him very high risk, but my parents are guardians and refuse to allow him to get the vaccine. These liars may very well kill my brother. My brother does not have the cognitive abilities to fight for his rights. I'm actually going to tell him to ask his doctor but really he will obey my parents. 

So many of these rabid anti-vaxxers who have been spewing lies and propaganda since the pandemic began are suddenly sooo confused and upset when they find out the hard way that covid is not a hoax, that "I Have an Immune System" frame on their profile pic has not protected them, and it's too late to get a vaccine once you're hospitalized. The same pattern happens over and over: months of posting memes comparing mandates to the holocaust, calling Fauci a murderer, claiming vaccines are killing far more people than covid, doctors are killing patients to get the "government covid bonus," blah blah blah, and then comes the post saying "Damn, looks like I got the 'rona, but I'll be fine," followed a few days later by a hospital selfie saying "Whoa, this covid shit is no joke!" — after a year of posting memes they thought were hilarious while 660,000 other people died.

All those posts about how they're "lions not sheep," all that bravado and bullshit about how they'd rather die free than submit to the tyranny of mask and vax mandates suddenly evaporates when they realize they are in fact about to "die free." Next comes the tearful prayer request as things go downhill, followed by a post from a spouse, sibling, or friend saying that so-&-so lost their battle with covid, and it was all so sudden and unexpected and unfair. Oh, and here's the GoFundMe because the wife and kids this "lion" left behind are gonna be broke and homeless soon.

Some of these people remain unrepentant to the end, some realize too late that they've made a terrible mistake and want to warn others not to be stupid, and some are just really really confused. This one really got to me, because you can see the dawning realization that everything he believed was a lie, and there's no way to go back and do it over. He died a few days after this post. 

 

Edited September 18, 2021 by Corraleno

[ScoutTN]

3 hours ago, ktgrok said:

They are not keeping us from being Covid free, but they are making things a heck of a lot worse. We could make this country a LOT LOT LOT safer for everyone if even just those who claim to follow a deity that said to pick up one's cross would stop whining about being bossed around and do what is right to protect "the least of these". 

Amen!

[TCB]

It’s interesting to me that some people are so concerned about possible  long term effects of the vaccines but completely unconcerned about possible long term effects of the virus. This is old news, I know, but it struck me forcibly just now.

[SeaConquest]

2 minutes ago, TCB said:

It’s interesting to me that some people are so concerned about possible  long term effects of the vaccines but completely unconcerned about possible long term effects of the virus. This is old news, I know, but it struck me forcibly just now.

They also don't trust big pharma, scientists, and physicians re the vaccine, but they trust all of the above re monoclonal antibodies and saving their lives when they are gasping for air. The whole thing is just nonsensical.  

[TCB]

7 minutes ago, SeaConquest said:

They also don't trust big pharma, scientists, and physicians re the vaccine, but they trust all of the above re monoclonal antibodies and saving their lives when they are gasping for air. The whole thing is just nonsensical.  

Yes very little of it makes any sense at all.

[Pawz4me]

22 minutes ago, SeaConquest said:

They also don't trust big pharma, scientists, and physicians re the vaccine, but they trust all of the above re monoclonal antibodies and saving their lives when they are gasping for air. The whole thing is just nonsensical.  

Nor do they seem to care that the monoclonal antibodies were tested on cells from fetal tissue. They can't take a vaccine that used fetal cells in development, but the monoclonal antibodies are fine. 

I don't know how people deal with that much cognitive dissonance.

[Corraleno]

2 minutes ago, SeaConquest said:

They also don't trust big pharma, scientists, and physicians re the vaccine, but they trust all of the above re monoclonal antibodies and saving their lives when they are gasping for air. The whole thing is just nonsensical.  

And yet monoclonal antibodies are still "experimental" and under EUA, while Pfizer is fully approved, and both of them used fetal cell lines in testing (along with most other medications these folk have been taking for years without caring how they were tested). 

A lot of anti-vaxxers also believe that their odds of dying from the vaccine are higher than dying of covid. There's a widespread claim that of the hundreds of thousands of covid deaths, less than 10K actually died "of" covid and the rest died of something else and just happened to also have covid when they died. Combine that with claims that the government is hiding the "truth" that tens of thousands of people have died from the vaccine, and people literally think the vaccine is more dangerous than the disease — and if they do get the disease they assume that of course they will be in the group that only has mild symptoms, no matter how many comorbidities they have. And then when they or a loved one ends up seriously ill or dying, it's like they've suddenly been transported to a parallel universe and their brains cannot compute how they can possibly be dying of a disease that hardly kills anyone.

 

 

[ktgrok]

I can't help but wonder if a particular fundamentalist approach to the Bible, where inconsistencies are denied and said to be not inconsistent, and certain influential preachers who teach things inconsistent with the Bible, has made a certain subset of people more likely to ignore inconsistent logic in general? Like, you just learn to accept the cognitive dissonance?

(not saying this about all Christians, or all those who take the bible literally, etc...but y'all know what I mean.)

[frogger]

Just now, ktgrok said:

I can't help but wonder if a particular fundamentalist approach to the Bible, where inconsistencies are denied and said to be not inconsistent, and certain influential preachers who teach things inconsistent with the Bible, has made a certain subset of people more likely to ignore inconsistent logic in general? Like, you just learn to accept the cognitive dissonance?

(not saying this about all Christians, or all those who take the bible literally, etc...but y'all know what I mean.)

Honestly, I'm tired of assuming it is all evangelicals though there is certainly a segment struggling with it for sure. No denial there. For some, church is a social club.

I think there are a large number of cultural Christians where Christianity is American like apple pie but the majority of people I know that are like this never set foot in a church and never read the Bible and some hate organized religion. The only reason that they might say they are Christian is because they aren't Hindu or Muslim or Atheist and don't know the term agnostic. 

That is my personal experience at least. 

 

[ktgrok]

Just now, frogger said:

Honestly, I'm tired of assuming it is all evangelicals though there is certainly a segment struggling with it for sure. No denial there. For some, church is a social club.

I think there are a large number of cultural Christians where Christianity is American like apple pie but the majority of people I know that are like this never set foot in a church and never read the Bible and some hate organized religion. The only reason that they might say they are Christian is because they aren't Hindu or Muslim or Atheist and don't know the term agnostic. 

That is my personal experience at least. 

 

Oh, I don't think it is all Evangelicals. I have a group of uber crunchy granola types locally that think essential oils and coffee enemas will cure everything and they very much are not Christian. But maybe the essential oil MLMs trained them to ignore facts, lol. 

[frogger]

4 minutes ago, ktgrok said:

Oh, I don't think it is all Evangelicals. I have a group of uber crunchy granola types locally that think essential oils and coffee enemas will cure everything and they very much are not Christian. But maybe the essential oil MLMs trained them to ignore facts, lol. 

I realized that "all evangelicals"  needs tone of voice. My brain was saying "all of these people are not Evangelicals"  but it could also mean "the entire group of Evangelicals are part of these people." 

Language can be strange. Perhaps I need a Venn diagram. Either is true I suppose. 

Edited September 18, 2021 by frogger

[Drama Llama]

. . . 

Edited October 26, 2021 by BaseballandHockey

[Danae]

24 minutes ago, ktgrok said:

I can't help but wonder if a particular fundamentalist approach to the Bible, where inconsistencies are denied and said to be not inconsistent, and certain influential preachers who teach things inconsistent with the Bible, has made a certain subset of people more likely to ignore inconsistent logic in general? Like, you just learn to accept the cognitive dissonance?

(not saying this about all Christians, or all those who take the bible literally, etc...but y'all know what I mean.)

I think it's more direct than that.  The anti-evolution crusade has been training generations of people to believe that the scientific establishment is built on lies and is explicitly anti-Christian.  Once you're all-in on that basic world view "overwhelming evidence" and "scientific consensus" are not convincing. 

 

Edit:  OR what BaseballandHockey said. 

Edited September 18, 2021 by Danae

[Pawz4me]

23 minutes ago, ktgrok said:

I can't help but wonder if a particular fundamentalist approach to the Bible, where inconsistencies are denied and said to be not inconsistent, and certain influential preachers who teach things inconsistent with the Bible, has made a certain subset of people more likely to ignore inconsistent logic in general? Like, you just learn to accept the cognitive dissonance?

(not saying this about all Christians, or all those who take the bible literally, etc...but y'all know what I mean.)

I think you could be right. It correlates with what I see among the people I know who are anti-vaccine and believe Covid is (mostly) an overblown hoax. And all of them are people who claim to be devout evangelical Christians. 

[frogger]

1 hour ago, Pawz4me said:

Nor do they seem to care that the monoclonal antibodies were tested on cells from fetal tissue. They can't take a vaccine that used fetal cells in development, but the monoclonal antibodies are fine. 

I don't know how people deal with that much cognitive dissonance.

Honestly, I didn't know that.

[RootAnn]

So, in Moderna's recent study about waning immunity, they recorded 162 breakthrough cases among their 14,746 fully vaccinated trial participants (median time of 13 months since first dose) & 88 out of 11,431 participants who received their first dose 8 months ago (median). These were cases found between July 1st & August 27th if I am reading the news release correctly. (I can't find the actual study on the medrxiv server.)

Can someone help me do the math on what those would be on a case rate per 100,000 per seven days? They convert to "cases per 1000 person-years" (incidence rate) which makes no sense to me since my local covid dashboard is per 100,000 population (prevalence rate) for the last seven days.

Edited September 18, 2021 by RootAnn
Added terms

[Danae]

33 minutes ago, RootAnn said:

So, in Moderna's recent study about waning immunity, they recorded 162 breakthrough cases among their 14,746 fully vaccinated trial participants (median time of 13 months since first dose) & 88 out of 11,431 participants who received their first dose 8 months ago (median). These were cases found between July 1st & August 27th if I am reading the news release correctly. (I can't find the actual study on the medrxiv server.)

Can someone help me do the math on what those would be on a case rate per 100,000 per seven days? They convert to "cases per 1000 person-years" (incidence rate) which makes no sense to me since my local covid dashboard is per 100,000 population (prevalence rate) for the last seven days.

Never mind.  Math error.

 

Edited September 18, 2021 by Danae

[RootAnn]

32 minutes ago, Danae said:

Never mind.  Math error.

After looking some things up online, I don't know if I can compare them with some math calculations. But if anyone knows, please speak up!

[BronzeTurtle]

Can someone help me out...if the FDA looked at all the science and decided boosters weren't needed at this time for anyone not at high risk, why would we not follow the science on this? If they are not looking at data, what is the impetus behind their decision? I'm looking at a bunch of studies that show high efficacy against severe disease, hospitalization, and death even months out during delta, both here and abroad.

Also, is anyone wary of side effects of a third shot that's not being recommended by the US FDA? Kind of like what effect might it have on your body to cause that inflammation again so soon after the last time? I had an awful time with my 2nd dose and everything seems to indicate that I won't get severely ill with that even if antibodies have waned. I don't know if the inflammation was damaging at all as I just rode it out, but how would I know a 3rd dose is good for me? 

Or that if a bunch of people do this, we won't have any good data left because who knows who has had 3 shots or 2 in the reporting? How do they track this if people are getting 3rd shots on the down low?

I can say with total confidence that if the fda hadn't given the EUA back whenever that was (December?) I wouldn't have tried to go out and get it on my own regardless of what other countries were doing. 

I guess, why do we think the fda wouldn't approve this if the science supports third doses for everyone? Did they say at the meeting? Are those notes publicly available? Is it a committee decision or just one person decides?

[ktgrok]

2 minutes ago, BronzeTurtle said:

Can someone help me out...if the FDA looked at all the science and decided boosters weren't needed at this time for anyone not at high risk, why would we not follow the science on this? If they are not looking at data, what is the impetus behind their decision? I'm looking at a bunch of studies that show high efficacy against severe disease, hospitalization, and death even months out during delta, both here and abroad.

Also, is anyone wary of side effects of a third shot that's not being recommended by the US FDA? Kind of like what effect might it have on your body to cause that inflammation again so soon after the last time? I had an awful time with my 2nd dose and everything seems to indicate that I won't get severely ill with that even if antibodies have waned. I don't know if the inflammation was damaging at all as I just rode it out, but how would I know a 3rd dose is good for me? 

Or that if a bunch of people do this, we won't have any good data left because who knows who has had 3 shots or 2 in the reporting? How do they track this if people are getting 3rd shots on the down low?

I can say with total confidence that if the fda hadn't given the EUA back whenever that was (December?) I wouldn't have tried to go out and get it on my own regardless of what other countries were doing. 

I guess, why do we think the fda wouldn't approve this if the science supports third doses for everyone? Did they say at the meeting? Are those notes publicly available? Is it a committee decision or just one person decides?

It isn't that the science doesn't support that a third dose gives better protection. It does, clearly. The question is, how much extra protection is worth the expense and bad press of doing a booster. 

Also, some people are not at high risk themselves, but are working with or living with people that ARE high risk, or not vaccinated, etc. Or can't afford to take 2 weeks off of work if they test positive or get sick with Covid. For them, preventing infection, not just hospitalization, is important, just from a financial point of view. 

For me, I have a high risk family member, VERY high risk, and if I can get a booster to lessen the chance of me giving it to her, that would make me happy. She will get a booster, but at her age we don't know how well any vaccine is going to work, so having those in close contact with her also be boostered is a good idea. 

[Not_a_Number]

6 minutes ago, BronzeTurtle said:

I'm looking at a bunch of studies that show high efficacy against severe disease, hospitalization, and death even months out during delta, both here and abroad.

High, but very definitely dropping. Israeli data is the best we have, I think, since they did such an excellent job vaccinating back in the winter. Here's the paper: 

https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.08.24.21262423v1.full-text

Pertinent quotes: 

Quote

A similar pattern is obtained when analyzing severe disease for the older (60+) group (Figure 4), in which vaccination periods are defined as full months due to small group size. The rate of severe cases for people aged 60 or older who were fully vaccinated in January is 0.29 for 1000 persons, and is reduced to 0.23, 0.15, and 0.10 for those who were fully vaccinated in February, March, and April-May, respectively.

Quote

The efficacy of the vaccine against severe disease for the 60+ age group also decreases; from 91% to 86% between those vaccinated four months to those vaccinated six months before the study. The corresponding efficacies for the 40-59 age group are 98% and 94%.

I have no idea how I'm supposed to look at these numbers and not worry about what's going to happen later! There's drastic waning and we're in the middle of a wave of highly contagious disease. 

Edited September 18, 2021 by Not_a_Number

[Spy Car]

The question is whether high (but waning) protection against hospitalization and death is the "gold standard" for the Covid vaccine, especially when a significant portion of the population is not approved due to their age and parents don't want to become disease vectors to their children (and others).

A focus sole on hospitalization and death also ignores reasonable concerns about Long Covid.

Bill

[kbutton]

4 hours ago, Danae said:

I think it's more direct than that.  The anti-evolution crusade has been training generations of people to believe that the scientific establishment is built on lies and is explicitly anti-Christian.  Once you're all-in on that basic world view "overwhelming evidence" and "scientific consensus" are not convincing. 

This is a (growing and belligerent) subset of creationists, and I do think that you might have hit it right on the head. As a creationist, I am as exasperated by them as everyone else, and I have not been slow to call out my utter frustration with the white evangelical crowd that is the demographic I belong to. 

I think there has been a shift in recent years toward this, and I don't know why some people gravitate toward it.

[Spy Car]

7 minutes ago, kbutton said:

This is a (growing and belligerent) subset of creationists, and I do think that you might have hit it right on the head. As a creationist, I am as exasperated by them as everyone else, and I have not been slow to call out my utter frustration with the white evangelical crowd that is the demographic I belong to. 

I think there has been a shift in recent years toward this, and I don't know why some people gravitate toward it.

Do you remember when Rebecca Keller, the author of the homeschool oriented Science 4 Kids, got caught out admitting that she sought to undermine belief in science as a way to advance creationism (and that she was doing it stealthily)?

It is a strategy.

Bill

[kbutton]

2 minutes ago, Spy Car said:

Do you remember when Rebecca Keller, the author of the homeschool oriented Science 4 Kids, got caught out admitting that she sought to undermine belief in science as a way to advance creationism (and that she was doing it stealthily)?

It is a strategy.

Bill

No, I don't remember that. :-(