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The Vaccine Thread


JennyD

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17 hours ago, SKL said:

I feel that there isn't enough incentive for this to be studied, since nobody stands to make money off of proving natural immunity.

I feel this is a huge hole when we're talking about vax mandates.  Where is the scientific justification for requiring 2 (maybe more, eventually) mRNA shots given to people who already have natural antibodies?

The NHS does, because being able to use natural infection saves it a lot of money it can use elsewhere. Especially if this turns out to be something requiring several vaccinations - if natural infection turns out to be something the NHS can treat as equivalent to one of those doses, then it could potentially save a lot of money each time there is a new wave.

 

Which may explain why natural immunity has already been studied, and why it has been found a significant number of people who had natural immunity revert to non-immune even within the 6-month period the NHS currently considers "immune" for COVID app purposes. Even Israel managed to get vaccines to go 6 months before losing immunity, and that was with spacing that would now be considered too close for optimal protection.

I do wonder if having mRNA for dose 1 (more effective in the short term) and something like OxfordAstrazeneca for dose 2 (early signs of being more effective in the medium term), 8-16 weeks apart, might turn out to be optimal for someone who's not had an infection (with the potential to skip one of the doses if an infection occurred in the appropriate window)? That's going to take quite a bit of research.

15 hours ago, ktgrok said:

I'm not sure I'm getting your distinction - you do mean actually got sick, or? You develop antibodies by it infecting you, and your body fighting back against that infection. 

A single dose of vaccine also generates antibodies, which is how the UK is on 92% of the population with antibodies. For comparison, that's about the same proportion who have antibodies against measles in the UK (almost all of which is through vaccination).

 

 

10 hours ago, frogger said:

Or were you again implying they lied? I mean, I'm pretty sure they couldn't foresee the future so I don't know what you expect from "them". Whoever you are including in "them". 

 

I still haven't figured out how the whole thing relates to my quote.

It seemed to have nothing to do with infection versus symptoms and damage to your body. 🤷

I think a lot of people heard "95% protection", "62/70/90% protection" and "66% protection" and assumed those headline figures were going to hold, based on their knowledge of stable viruses (or of percentages that are meant to hold until the next scheduled dose, in the case of flu). The concepts of waning immunity and vaccine evasion aren't taught in practical terms to most people until times like this, only maybe covered in the midst of a bunch of theory in high school-equivalent biology class.

It's rather hard to consider the possibility of waning immunity when it's only presented as a thing that happens in practise after immunity starts waning... (I get the feeling the journalists weren't told it was a practical risk rather than a theoretical one either, because not even the usually-responsible ones mentioned it).

And for the record, I had believed that places like the UK and USA could vaccinate hard enough and fast enough to at least create bubbles of safety within those countries (that would work much like New Zealand, where most of the time, most aspects of life are normal) while arrangements were made to vaccinate everywhere else.

Edited by ieta_cassiopeia
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Everybody's entitled to their own interpretation of vaccine efficacy, I guess. I keep seeing numbers like the ones below, and they're what I focus on. Sure I'd love to know with 100 percent certainty that I'll never get Covid (and thus never have to worry about long Covid), but that was never a realistic expectation. I find the numbers like the following very reassuring. They're from a local large hospital system (855 beds at the main hospital, another 650 or so beds at smaller satellite facilities) --

94 percent of the Covid patients in their hospitals are unvaccinated

96 percent of the Covid patients in their ICUs are unvaccinated

96 percent of the Covid patients on ventilators are unvaccinated

I see stats similar to those repeated over and over and they make me, as a fully vaxxed person, feel pretty darn safe.

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2 hours ago, Pawz4me said:

Everybody's entitled to their own interpretation of vaccine efficacy, I guess. I keep seeing numbers like the ones below, and they're what I focus on. Sure I'd love to know with 100 percent certainty that I'll never get Covid (and thus never have to worry about long Covid), but that was never a realistic expectation. I find the numbers like the following very reassuring. They're from a local large hospital system (855 beds at the main hospital, another 650 or so beds at smaller satellite facilities) --

94 percent of the Covid patients in their hospitals are unvaccinated

96 percent of the Covid patients in their ICUs are unvaccinated

96 percent of the Covid patients on ventilators are unvaccinated

I see stats similar to those repeated over and over and they make me, as a fully vaxxed person, feel pretty darn safe.

Yes, we have similar figures, but I have several people I know who were vaccinated that have had "mild" cases of Covid that knocked them on their butt. Some did go to the hospital, though they were not admitted. And yeah, I wonder about long Covid for them.  Plus once again, so yeah, I am relatively safe, but giving it to my mom would be fatal.  Many people like me have vulnerable people in their lives.  Plus, the ones it tends to fail on her the older people, which is who this was supposed to protect in the first place.  GRR.

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11 minutes ago, TexasProud said:

Yes, we have similar figures, but I have several people I know who were vaccinated that have had "mild" cases of Covid that knocked them on their butt. Some did go to the hospital, though they were not admitted. And yeah, I wonder about long Covid for them.  Plus once again, so yeah, I am relatively safe, but giving it to my mom would be fatal.  Many people like me have vulnerable people in their lives.  Plus, the ones it tends to fail on her the older people, which is who this was supposed to protect in the first place.  GRR.

You might want to be careful who you speak to like that. Many of us have vulnerable people in our lives, or are ourselves vulnerable. FYI, my DH has stage IV cancer and I am on a strong immune suppressing medication for an AI disease.,

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2 hours ago, Pawz4me said:

You might want to be careful who you speak to like that. Many of us have vulnerable people in our lives, or are ourselves vulnerable. FYI, my DH has stage IV cancer and I am on a strong immune suppressing medication for an AI disease.,

Speak to like what?  How are you not concerned if you are vulnerable.  I am confused.

So sorry for your husband's diagnosis.  But doesn't that make him VERY VERY vulnerable/??  You cannot live a normal life, can you????

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Just now, TexasProud said:

Speak to like what?  How are you not concerned if you are vulnerable.  I am confused.

I am not NOT concerned. I'm pragmatic and realistic. The vaccines give pretty darn strong protection, even to those who are higher risk.

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2 hours ago, Pawz4me said:

I am not NOT concerned. I'm pragmatic and realistic. The vaccines give pretty darn strong protection, even to those who are higher risk.

I am glad you can be. I was already worried about killing people before this if I got it...

Praying the best for you.

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2 minutes ago, TexasProud said:

Speak to like what?  How are you not concerned if you are vulnerable.  I am confused.

So sorry for your husband's diagnosis.  But doesn't that make him VERY VERY vulnerable/??  You cannot live a normal life, can you????

Well, for us -- yes. We live relatively normally. But we're strong introverts, so in a way the pandemic has been a bit of a weird blessing in that it's allowed us an "out" for not attending events we hate. Our normal life even in non-pandemic times would probably look very, very locked down to many people. But in other ways we live much more normally than many on here, probably. I've shopped in person (masked, and at less busy times) throughout the pandemic. If we need to shop for other things in person we do. We've kept up with all medical appointments (which for us aren't optional, of course), dental appointments, optometrists, etc. Because we're diligent about masking, social distancing and are vaxxed there's never been any real reason for us to worry about causing others to get sick. For us dealing with very serious health issues has, I think, helped keep the pandemic in perspective. We use common sense but we don't freak out about it. We have other things that are much more "freak out worthy" than the pandemic.

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1 hour ago, TexasProud said:

 

I had the idea I would get the vaccine and I could live a normal life. I WANT A NORMAL LIFE.  I don't care if it is better than nothing. I don't care whether they lied or whether they didn't. Fact is, I want normalcy and expected the vaccine to give it to me.  Now, because I am taking care of my dying mom, ( thought it may take years...don't know yet), I will be isolated for the forseeable future. I am mad and disappointed.

I feel exactly the same way. There is nothing wrong or dumb about having had hope, and being angry that it didn't work out. I think a LOT of us feel that way. 

What people were reacting to was the idea that the anger should be directed at the scientists who made the vaccine, or at "people" for lying about it. Being angry at the situation, at Covid, at the pandemic, at people not doing their part - yes, absolutely. We all are. Accusing others of lyng about a vaccine, or purposely misleading everyone, that's what is not true or fair. And I don't think you did that. 

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2 hours ago, Pawz4me said:

Well, for us -- yes. We live relatively normally. But we're strong introverts, so in a way the pandemic has been a bit of a weird blessing in that it's allowed us an "out" for not attending events we hate. Our normal life even in non-pandemic times would probably look very, very locked down to many people. But in other ways we live much more normally than many on here, probably. I've shopped in person (masked, and at less busy times) throughout the pandemic. If we need to shop for other things in person we do. We've kept up with all medical appointments (which for us aren't optional, of course), dental appointments, optometrists, etc. Because we're diligent about masking, social distancing and are vaxxed there's never been any real reason for us to worry about causing others to get sick. For us dealing with very serious health issues has, I think, helped keep the pandemic in perspective. We use common sense but we don't freak out about it. We have other things that are much more "freak out worthy" than the pandemic.

Ah... ok. Well we travel overseas on mission trips, sing in choir, participate in musical theater, at church activities several times a week, sing in praise team.  It is all gone.  I was out of the house more than home before the pandemic.  The last time I was this isolated I had to be medicated for depression. 

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5 minutes ago, TexasProud said:

Ah... ok. Well we travel overseas on mission trips, sing in choir, participate in musical theater, at church activities several times a week, sing in praise team.  It is all gone.  I was out of the house more than home before the pandemic.  The last time I was this isolated I had to be medicated for depression. 

I feel tremendous sympathy for extroverts. I truly do.

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I actually think it’s pretty rational to get back to normal life if vaccinated!!! Yeah, it can knock you on your butt, but so can the flu. Life is a scary and unpredictable place in general. What I was personally avoiding was something that felt an order of magnitude scarier than other things I did. 

Plus, at this point I’m not worried about passing it around nearly as much, given that people can get vaccinated. 

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15 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

I actually think it’s pretty rational to get back to normal life if vaccinated!!! Yeah, it can knock you on your butt, but so can the flu. Life is a scary and unpredictable place in general. What I was personally avoiding was something that felt an order of magnitude scarier than other things I did. 

Plus, at this point I’m not worried about passing it around nearly as much, given that people can get vaccinated. 

Unfortunately, we know COVID-19 can have serious consequences even if the initial infection wasn't that bad (the 11.5% chance of new cardiovascular/psychiatric issue within 6 months of non-hospitalised known positive COVID didn't differentiate by vaccine and it will be a while before a version of the study that does becomes feasible). This still is an order of magnitude bigger threat than other things most people do until shown otherwise.

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Just now, mommyoffive said:

That is interesting, as it implies Moderna starts to wear off at some point between 8 and 12 months (8 months was the average for the "control" the "twice as likely" is being compared to). Subject to any potential issues with the study itself. This is a lot longer than Pfizer and somewhat longer than OxfordAstrazeneca.

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2 hours ago, TexasProud said:

I was so incredibly angry at this post. Didn't have time to respond yesterday as I had a paper due. Sorry. Guess I am one of the thousands of people who feel duped and betrayed.  AND THIS IS A JAWM. Please, please, please don't tell me again how stupid I am and how bad my education was or whatever. 

I had the idea I would get the vaccine and I could live a normal life. I WANT A NORMAL LIFE.  I don't care if it is better than nothing. I don't care whether they lied or whether they didn't. Fact is, I want normalcy and expected the vaccine to give it to me.  Now, because I am taking care of my dying mom, ( thought it may take years...don't know yet), I will be isolated for the forseeable future. I am mad and disappointed. Before Covid, in this situation, I would not have stopped my normal interactions. Because of Covid I have to. I thought the vaccine would prevent it.

I guess I am just stupid and gullible that I didn't understand it.  I guess I still would have gotten it, but I wouldn't have gotten my hopes up that I could have a life again. I may never have it back.  AGAIN. I cannot handle you telling me what else did I expect. How stupid I was for not understanding the science.  I am dumb, what  can I say.

You’re not stupid.  It’s complicated science.  
Frankly, this really was the messaging people were getting.  I gave hundreds, maybe even a thousand, vaccines.  People were so excited because they had been told it was our ticket back to a normal life.  The pamphlets we handed out definitely led people to believe that.  I think people needed optimism and the messaging was too optimistic, probably to convince people to get vaccinated.

My mom is vaccine hesitant for herself but is currently interviewing personal care aides for my grandmother and is insistent that they be vaccinated.  She has this idea that natural immunity is preferable.  I finally told her last night that even if she got vaccinated, she’ll still probably get Covid anyway.  She isn’t dumb, but the messaging, even subtly, was persistent that it was going to prevent Covid altogether, when it should have been preventing serious Covid.

Also, the vast majority of vaccines do prevent illnesses for most people.  Measles, mumps, rubella, tetnus—so when we hear vaccine, that’s what we think.  It should have been equated to the flu vaccine.

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27 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

I actually think it’s pretty rational to get back to normal life if vaccinated!!! Yeah, it can knock you on your butt, but so can the flu. Life is a scary and unpredictable place in general. What I was personally avoiding was something that felt an order of magnitude scarier than other things I did. 

Plus, at this point I’m not worried about passing it around nearly as much, given that people can get vaccinated. 

The consequences of a Covid infection are still a magnitude scarier to me than anything else. I have a vaccinated friend with long Covid. I don't wish that on anyone. 

I am still concerned about passing it on, since vaccination protection is not 100 percent, and the immune response is less strong in older folks who are more vulnerable. 

I am working a high exposure job, surrounded by a community where 60% are unvaccinated, with a positivity rate of 30%. That colors my risk assessment. 

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3 minutes ago, regentrude said:

The consequences of a Covid infection are still a magnitude scarier to me than anything else. I have a vaccinated friend with long Covid. I don't wish that on anyone. 
 

Ugh. Say more. I do worry a lot about long COVID, frankly, so if the chance of that is not low, that concerns me.

When had she been vaccinated and with which vaccine?
 

3 minutes ago, regentrude said:

I am still concerned about passing it on, since vaccination protection is not 100 percent, and the immune response is less strong in older folks who are more vulnerable. 

I know, but I also don’t know how long we can live like this for…

 

3 minutes ago, regentrude said:

I am working a high exposure job, surrounded by a community where 60% are unvaccinated, with a positivity rate of 30%. That colors my risk assessment. 

Yeah, that’s a different situation.

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18 minutes ago, ieta_cassiopeia said:

Unfortunately, we know COVID-19 can have serious consequences even if the initial infection wasn't that bad (the 11.5% chance of new cardiovascular/psychiatric issue within 6 months of non-hospitalised known positive COVID didn't differentiate by vaccine and it will be a while before a version of the study that does becomes feasible). This still is an order of magnitude bigger threat than other things most people do until shown otherwise.

I suppose I’m hoping that post-vaccine, all the risks shrink.

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43 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

I actually think it’s pretty rational to get back to normal life if vaccinated!!! Yeah, it can knock you on your butt, but so can the flu. Life is a scary and unpredictable place in general. What I was personally avoiding was something that felt an order of magnitude scarier than other things I did. 

Plus, at this point I’m not worried about passing it around nearly as much, given that people can get vaccinated. 

Right, but her mom is elderly, has health issues, etc so the vaccine is not as protective, and if she starts cancer treatment may be truly at risk. For her, going back to normal means potentially exposing her mom. I think it is absolutely understandable and rational why she feels she can't go back to high exposure things like singing in the choir, and understandable why she is upset by this. 

When someone is understandably upset and grieving and angry, hearing over and over "well, I am happy and back to normal" is probably not helpful. 

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Just now, ktgrok said:

Right, but her mom is elderly, has health issues, etc so the vaccine is not as protective, and if she starts cancer treatment may be truly at risk. For her, going back to normal means potentially exposing her mom. I think it is absolutely understandable and rational why she feels she can't go back to high exposure things like singing in the choir, and understandable why she is upset by this. 

When someone is understandably upset and grieving and angry, hearing over and over "well, I am happy and back to normal" is probably not helpful. 

I’m not happy and back to normal, lol. We’re totally hiding out because the kids aren’t vaxxed and because I want a booster.

But I do think that if she gets a booster when eligible, and when cases go down a bit, it’d be rational to go back to normal life. 

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Just now, Not_a_Number said:

I’m not happy and back to normal, lol. We’re totally hiding out because the kids aren’t vaxxed and because I want a booster.

But I do think that if she gets a booster when eligible, and when cases go down a bit, it’d be rational to go back to normal life. 

Right, but that's not NOW. She's in a horrid hot spot with cases out of control, not boostered, and having to help her mom who is dealing with metastatic cancer. Right now, she feels (rightly) that she can't go back to normal without risking her mother's life, and is upset by that. 

To reply back that going back to normal is rational probably feels like a slap in the face, or at least pretty dismissive. Because, for her, in her situation, it is NOT rational to go back to normal. And even you, with no cancer patient to care for, and with positivity a 10th of what she is dealing with, are not back to normal. So I'm not getting where 'back to normal" is rational? I mean...that's just not true, nor is it helpful to say, in her situation, you know?

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48 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

I actually think it’s pretty rational to get back to normal life if vaccinated!!! Yeah, it can knock you on your butt, but so can the flu. Life is a scary and unpredictable place in general. What I was personally avoiding was something that felt an order of magnitude scarier than other things I did.

Yes. From everything I'm reading the risk of getting Covid for a fully vaccinated person is about the same risk we have anytime we get in our car and drive somewhere. So . . I jump in the car to go grocery shopping w/o giving my risk of being in an accident a single thought. I could be in a minor fender bender (the equivalent of asymptomatic Covid or a "Covid cold") or I could be in a horrible accident that lands me in the ICU for a long time, or kills me (the equivalent of really bad Covid). Or I could be in an accident that leaves me permanently disabled (perhaps the equivalent of long Covid). But in any event -- the possibility of a bad car accident isn't a great enough risk that it keeps me from doing things that I need or really want to go and do.

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14 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

Ugh. Say more. I do worry a lot about long COVID, frankly, so if the chance of that is not low, that concerns me. When had she been vaccinated and with which vaccine?

I don't know. Some time this spring. She had Covid already last summer and was ill for several weeks. Now she's over a month past initial infection and needs a multi-hour nap after going to the mailbox. Was planning to move and had to cancel the lease because she's too weak.
This scares the crap out of me and makes it worth, to me, avoiding high risk situations like live performances in crowded indoor spaces full of unmasked people.

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28 minutes ago, Mrs Tiggywinkle said:

Also, the vast majority of vaccines do prevent illnesses for most people.  Measles, mumps, rubella, tetnus—so when we hear vaccine, that’s what we think.  It should have been equated to the flu vaccine.

Unfortunately, many people don't get the flu vaccine as it's perceived as not effectual enough to be worth the risks 😞 (I've been hospitalised with the flu vaccine, as has someone else in my social circle. If it had been billed as being like the flu vaccine, I probably would have skipped the vaccine due to equating it with a guaranteed hospital visit, and the other person definitely would have done so).

I was told recently the risk of COVID if vaccinated was like being a passenger in a car. Well, I'm careful who I ride with due to bad past experiences too...

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20 minutes ago, Pawz4me said:

Yes. From everything I'm reading the risk of getting Covid for a fully vaccinated person is about the same risk we have anytime we get in our car and drive somewhere

But that risk is an average over many people with very different behaviors. Most of us still take precautions to lower our personal driving risk: wear seat belts, don't text, don't drive intoxicated. Some people are even more careful and avoid driving overtired or in heavy rain.

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25 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

I’m not happy and back to normal, lol. We’re totally hiding out because the kids aren’t vaxxed and because I want a booster.

But I do think that if she gets a booster when eligible, and when cases go down a bit, it’d be rational to go back to normal life. 

Normal up to a point, yes.  Or assuming every individual your family interacts with is successfully vaccinated.

For many of us, we have loved ones who can't or won't be successfully vaccinated.  And no, we do not write off such people because they may think differently than we do.  I never wrote off my loved ones who smoke(d) or overeat/overate either.  I have watched them die.  But I haven't had to worry about being the trigger that caused their deaths.

So anyhoo.  My kids live as normal a life as they can, without interacting with elderly or at-risk people.  As for me, being an introvert, the only thing I really hate is not being able to see my folks without the fear of killing them.

If it weren't for Delta, I'd be less cautious.  Hopefully we'll eventually get to that point again.

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3 hours ago, TexasProud said:

I was so incredibly angry at this post. Didn't have time to respond yesterday as I had a paper due. Sorry. Guess I am one of the thousands of people who feel duped and betrayed.  AND THIS IS A JAWM. Please, please, please don't tell me again how stupid I am and how bad my education was or whatever. 

I had the idea I would get the vaccine and I could live a normal life. I WANT A NORMAL LIFE.  I don't care if it is better than nothing. I don't care whether they lied or whether they didn't. Fact is, I want normalcy and expected the vaccine to give it to me.  Now, because I am taking care of my dying mom, ( thought it may take years...don't know yet), I will be isolated for the forseeable future. I am mad and disappointed. Before Covid, in this situation, I would not have stopped my normal interactions. Because of Covid I have to. I thought the vaccine would prevent it.

I guess I am just stupid and gullible that I didn't understand it.  I guess I still would have gotten it, but I wouldn't have gotten my hopes up that I could have a life again. I may never have it back.  AGAIN. I cannot handle you telling me what else did I expect. How stupid I was for not understanding the science.  I am dumb, what  can I say.

I am sorry that you are stuck in this terrible situation. 😥 It is for people like you that I am angry and frustrated. People spreading lies and misinformation are what is overwhelming our hospitals and putting you and your mom more at risk. It is disappointing and I'm disappointed alongside of you. 

If you aren't actively trying to get people to not vaccinate then you aren't the target. We all don't know a lot of things. No human can be an expert at everything so you should not feel bad. I know nothing about the politics of Liberia, zip, zero. That doesn't mean I'm stupid.

The problem comes when people start arguing and spreading misinformation because  they don't understand something. Then they are hurting people like you and your mom and that makes me angry. 

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7 minutes ago, SKL said:

Why didn't Pfizer and Moderna know before this that the vaxes would wear off?  Haven't they been studying it for over a year now?

The EUAs were granted well before the year was done, and it was only under Delta that there was enough wear for a loss of performance to become apparent. Also, the original idea was to vaccinate fast enough to beat the vaccine-escaping mutation (which would have rendered the whole question moot). It turns out that this is a trouble once partial vaccine escape (which Delta is known to do) enters the picture; it can be difficult to differentiate between the partial vaccine escape and potential waning of immunity.

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5 minutes ago, SKL said:

Normal up to a point, yes.  Or assuming every individual your family interacts with is successfully vaccinated.

For many of us, we have loved ones who can't or won't be successfully vaccinated.  And no, we do not write off such people because they may think differently than we do.  I never wrote off my loved ones who smoke(d) or overeat/overate either.  I have watched them die.  But I haven't had to worry about being the trigger that caused their deaths.

So anyhoo.  My kids live as normal a life as they can, without interacting with elderly or at-risk people.  As for me, being an introvert, the only thing I really hate is not being able to see my folks without the fear of killing them.

If it weren't for Delta, I'd be less cautious.  Hopefully we'll eventually get to that point again.

It sucks that you don’t feel safe seeing your folks. If they are not vaxxed, would they be willing to mask with an N95? Just to humor you? Outside? I’m sure you’ve already looked at those options. It just stinks to hear that you still feel you can’t see them.

FWIW, I do see our elderly, ill parents. I mask. They may or may not mask (due to illness), but they are at least vaccinated. That’s the best I can do, and CDC/their docs say it’s fine. I get it if you aren’t comfortable with that, though.

I have a new appreciation for the effects of masking, after spending seven hours with a coughing, vomiting, unmasked positive woman within four - ten feet. She was not masked, but mine worked. I’m negative.

Also, you said something about quarantining when vaccinated. If vaxxed, you don’t need to quarantine, though I think CDC rec is that you test at 3-5 days and mask indoors for 14. I did recently quarantine after my exposure, but it was to protect a vulnerable, high risk, unvaxxed loved one. Plus, my exposure was … intense. Everyone in your household is vaxxed, so not the same worry. 

 

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1 minute ago, ieta_cassiopeia said:

The EUAs were granted well before the year was done, and it was only under Delta that there was enough wear for a loss of performance to become apparent. Also, the original idea was to vaccinate fast enough to beat the vaccine-escaping mutation (which would have rendered the whole question moot). It turns out that this is a trouble once partial vaccine escape (which Delta is known to do) enters the picture; it can be difficult to differentiate between the partial vaccine escape and potential waning of immunity.

I'm not just talking since the EUAs, I'm talking since they started studying the vaxes in order to get to the EUA.  There's been plenty of time for it to become apparent that effectiveness wanes - if they were looking, which they should have been.  I mean, now, we're told we are idiots if we didn't expect effectiveness to wane by 8mos.  Well if I'm an idiot, what does that say about the specialists whose life work is to study and report on these things?

Or did they actually know about this and choose not to inform people?

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3 hours ago, ieta_cassiopeia said:

A single dose of vaccine also generates antibodies, which is how the UK is on 92% of the population with antibodies. For comparison, that's about the same proportion who have antibodies against measles in the UK (almost all of which is through vaccination).

 

Either its not the same antibodies as the disease or my vaccine did nothing

I've given blood several times since being vaccinated (Twice) and they used to test for antibodies (up until the end of July) and those never showed up for me.

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2 minutes ago, SKL said:

I'm not just talking since the EUAs, I'm talking since they started studying the vaxes in order to get to the EUA.  There's been plenty of time for it to become apparent that effectiveness wanes - if they were looking, which they should have been.  I mean, now, we're told we are idiots if we didn't expect effectiveness to wane by 8mos.  Well if I'm an idiot, what does that say about the specialists whose life work is to study and report on these things?

Or did they actually know about this and choose not to inform people?

Both delta and the large waves that followed changed the data and trajectory.  When it's not circulating in high numbers, waning efficacy is much less of an apparent issue.

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4 minutes ago, Spryte said:

It sucks that you don’t feel safe seeing your folks. If they are not vaxxed, would they be willing to mask with an N95? Just to humor you? Outside? I’m sure you’ve already looked at those options. It just stinks to hear that you still feel you can’t see them.

FWIW, I do see our elderly, ill parents. I mask. They may or may not mask (due to illness), but they are at least vaccinated. That’s the best I can do, and CDC/their docs say it’s fine. I get it if you aren’t comfortable with that, though.

I have a new appreciation for the effects of masking, after spending seven hours with a coughing, vomiting, unmasked positive woman within four - ten feet. She was not masked, but mine worked. I’m negative.

Also, you said something about quarantining when vaccinated. If vaxxed, you don’t need to quarantine, though I think CDC rec is that you test at 3-5 days and mask indoors for 14. I did recently quarantine after my exposure, but it was to protect a vulnerable, high risk, unvaxxed loved one. Plus, my exposure was … intense. Everyone in your household is vaxxed, so not the same worry.

I know we don't need to quarantine, but certain pockets of public opinion (including on this board) believe differently.  Who knows what the CDC will say tomorrow or the next day.

[As an aside about the unmasked positive woman, to be fair, it would not be realistic for her to mask if she was coughing and vomiting.  Sorry you went through that though.  And I'm glad you are negative.  Is your mom also negative?]

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13 minutes ago, FuzzyCatz said:

Both delta and the large waves that followed changed the data and trajectory.  When it's not circulating in high numbers, waning efficacy is much less of an apparent issue.

It was still circulating in pretty high numbers until May or June of 2021.

[sorry I previously typed 2020 ... typo]

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1 minute ago, SKL said:

It was still circulating in pretty high numbers until May or June of 2020.

Well that also wasn't delta.  

Our local numbers in May/June weren't anywhere near infection levels in Dec-Feb.  Or like Florida's in August.  

 

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4 minutes ago, SKL said:

It was still circulating in pretty high numbers until May or June of 2020.

I'm not sure the vaccine was far enough along to really know anything that early in the pandemic. It's still a miracle we HAVE A vaccine (And multiple. I'm still hoping Novavax will be approved in the US)

 

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3 minutes ago, FuzzyCatz said:

Well that also wasn't delta.  

Our local numbers in May/June weren't anywhere near infection levels in Dec-Feb.  Or like Florida's in August. 

I'm not talking about Delta, I'm talking about waning effectiveness, which is a different issue.

Are you saying testing/study of a vax is not possible unless the case rates are like they were last winter?  If that was the case then how did they develop the vax in the first place?  There was enough information if they were looking for it.

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6 minutes ago, vonfirmath said:

I'm not sure the vaccine was far enough along to really know anything that early in the pandemic. It's still a miracle we HAVE A vaccine (And multiple. I'm still hoping Novavax will be approved in the US)

 

Sorry I meant 2021.  Off to edit.

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7 minutes ago, FuzzyCatz said:

Well that also wasn't delta.  

Our local numbers in May/June weren't anywhere near infection levels in Dec-Feb.  Or like Florida's in August.  

 

Sorry I meant 2021, not 2020.  I have edited that.

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1 hour ago, ktgrok said:

Right, but that's not NOW. She's in a horrid hot spot with cases out of control, not boostered, and having to help her mom who is dealing with metastatic cancer. Right now, she feels (rightly) that she can't go back to normal without risking her mother's life, and is upset by that. 

To reply back that going back to normal is rational probably feels like a slap in the face, or at least pretty dismissive. Because, for her, in her situation, it is NOT rational to go back to normal. And even you, with no cancer patient to care for, and with positivity a 10th of what she is dealing with, are not back to normal. So I'm not getting where 'back to normal" is rational? I mean...that's just not true, nor is it helpful to say, in her situation, you know?

I have no clue. Is it irrational? I think she should get a booster ASAP and then take care of her mental health, because it does matter. We aren’t going to be able to get risk to anywhere near zero. We just aren’t.

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12 minutes ago, SKL said:

I'm not talking about Delta, I'm talking about waning effectiveness, which is a different issue.

Are you saying testing/study of a vax is not possible unless the case rates are like they were last winter?  If that was the case then how did they develop the vax in the first place?  There was enough information if they were looking for it.

Well viral levels are MUCH higher with delta which does seem to make a difference.  So yes, I think they were studying it all along but I can also see why this became really apparent when Delta changed the trajectory.  Part of what makes vaccines affect is just getting infection rates down.  Like any numbers of us right now could be walking around vulnerable to polio, but it's not circulating widely so it's not going to be an issue for most of us.  

I absolutely agree we should be studying  and collecting and analyzing more data on the regular.  We are relying on other countries some that are doing a  much better job that this.   But that is a science funding issue.  

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8 minutes ago, FuzzyCatz said:

Well viral levels are MUCH higher with delta which does seem to make a difference.  So yes, I think they were studying it all along but I can also see why this became really apparent when Delta changed the trajectory.  Part of what makes vaccines affect is just getting infection rates down.  Like any numbers of us right now could be walking around vulnerable to polio, but it's not circulating widely so it's not going to be an issue for most of us.  

I absolutely agree we should be studying  and collecting and analyzing more data on the regular.  We are relying on other countries some that are doing a  much better job that this.   But that is a science funding issue.  

1) I'm not sure who you mean by "we" when you say we should be studying etc.  The makers and marketers of these vaxes, and those in public health recommending them, should be doing this.  Was/is this not an actual requirement to get FDA approval?

2) There isn't money for this?  How much money have Pfizer and Moderna recieved between the funding of the study and the selling of the vaxes?

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30 minutes ago, SKL said:

I'm not talking about Delta, I'm talking about waning effectiveness, which is a differen

They can't KNOW how the long term effectiveness would have been against the original strain because it no longer circulates. It has mutated into delta.

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22 minutes ago, SKL said:

I know we don't need to quarantine, but certain pockets of public opinion (including on this board) believe differently.  Who knows what the CDC will say tomorrow or the next day.

[As an aside about the unmasked positive woman, to be fair, it would not be realistic for her to mask if she was coughing and vomiting.  Sorry you went through that though.  And I'm glad you are negative.  Is your mom also negative?]

Oh, absolutely, the sick woman could not possibly have masked. I think most of us felt only sympathy for her, no anger or frustration at her for not masking. The hospital could have separated her, perhaps, but there was nowhere to put her - the Covid waiting room had overflowed. It was chaos.

My mom is tested daily - still negative. Whew.

It gives me more faith in masking, that’s for sure. She and I both had on N95s, which we wore because we knew we might encounter Covid patients. Her masking wasn’t perfect - she pulled it out a few times (she was in pain, understandable).

I would have followed CDC guidelines to the letter, if not for unvaxxed DD. And the modified quarantine was primarily at home, to protect her. I still had to go to the hospital daily - I spoke to the docs and they okayed it first, based on CDC guidelines. Masked and hand sanitized, but still daily trips to the hospital despite the exposure. I just figured that everyone I encounter there had had the opportunity to get vaxxed, unlike DD.

Sharing all that about the quarantine because I don’t want anyone thinking that I’d expect that from anyone else. I did it for my DD, who has health issues and isn’t vaxxed yet. If the whole family was vaccinated, my actions would be different, and I don’t expect anyone else to do more than follow the CDC guidelines. No judgment here.

 

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1 minute ago, regentrude said:

They can't KNOW how the long term effectiveness would have been against the original strain because it no longer circulates. It has mutated into delta.

This happened well over 8 months into the studies though.

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