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The Vaccine Thread


JennyD

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For the record, I've been saying the same thing for months - that we may need a third dose like Hep B, but not boosters all the time. But not a single newspaper quoted me - badly or otherwise. I'm hurt 🙂

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2 hours ago, ktgrok said:

For the record, I've been saying the same thing for months - that we may need a third dose like Hep B, but not boosters all the time. But not a single newspaper quoted me - badly or otherwise. I'm hurt 🙂

Yup.  When I saw the headline, my first thought was, "FINALLY the CDC is catching up with @ktgrok!"

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2 hours ago, KSera said:

The CDC does keep making gaffes with what they say, but looking at this one, this appears to be more a case of a headline that says something different than the CDC director actually said. The CDC was explaining the way the initial doses close together act as a priming dose and the third shot later on acts as a booster, and looks to provide a much stronger immune response, which could allow it to last longer. 
 

‘In a separate interview Thursday on NBC's "TODAY," she cited other vaccines, like for hepatitis B, that require two primer shots, followed by a booster. She said scientists think the Covid vaccine may similarly provide long-term protection after three doses.

"We know we need a boost now and we will continue to follow the science, but I don't think it's a given that we will be doing this continuously," Walensky said on "TODAY."’

 

Im sure people will say this means they changed their mind if it turns out we need more than this third one, but she clearly said we will need to follow the science to see what happens (and I say that as someone who has been frequently frustrated by the way Walensky messages things)  

 

Good. I admit I could not get the article to open, so my original response was based on the headline. I did think about adding an aside that it could be the CDC or the news, but I got sidetracked while posting.

Darn news writers and headlines (rabble rabble, shakes fist)  Still not a good statement to make at this time, just a different source.

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19 hours ago, Katy said:

I wonder if this pandemic is going to radically shift American preferences regarding health care.  The pandemic is undeniably worst in poor red states where people are afraid of universal healthcare.  But many of them are dying, others are going to have long-haul symptoms and high inflammation for months.  Even without blood clotting issues from long-haul cases, inflammation is linked to diabetes, heart attacks, strokes, and all kinds of other issues including cancer. Those are all very expensive conditions.

Typically, these were already states with more restrictions on access to care and higher rates of poverty. There is a correlation to higher rates of T2D, cancer, and heart disease already in those populations.

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36 minutes ago, Longtime Lurker said:

Is there a non-video version of this?

Summary:  

1. The third dose is most effective after your immune system has had time to “digest” (my word) the first two doses so getting it early is less effective.  The eight month recommendation is based on the fact that the initial vaccines rolled out eight months ago, so to do it in an orderly fashion everyone should just get it eight months after their first.

2. This is different than the third doses given to immune-compromised people.  The third dose for most people is to ensure longevity of immunity, the third dose for immune-compromised people is to get them up to the immunity level the rest of us got with two doses, so they should get their third dose ASAP.

3. Getting unvaccinated people vaccinated will have a bigger impact on stopping spread than third doses. But the risk that offering thirds will cause unvaccinated people to think the vaccine doesn’t work isn’t a good reason to not do third doses. 
 

4. J&J roll-out was later than the initial Pfizer and Moderna roll-out and they’re still gathering/reviewing data on second shots.  By the time J&J recipients hit the eight month mark there will be a recommendation for them specifically.  

Edited by Danae
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Updated data from Oregon showing despite breakthroughs, people who are vaccinated have a dramatically lower rate of Covid. Last week, people who have not been vaccinated caught Covid at a rate six times higher than among those who are vaccinated. 
 

AF961979-03BA-4AE3-B665-ED920BB3CAD7.jpeg

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From NPR about booster shots:

"Any available vaccine should first go to people around the world who are at high risk of hospitalization and deaths, said Dr. Michael Ryan of the WHO. 'If we think about this in terms of an analogy, we're planning to hand out extra life jackets to people who already have life jackets, while we're leaving other people to drown without a single life jacket.'"

https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2021/08/18/1028941909/why-a-push-for-boosters-could-make-the-pandemic-even-worse

 

Susan in TX

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33 minutes ago, Susan in TX said:

From NPR about booster shots:

"Any available vaccine should first go to people around the world who are at high risk of hospitalization and deaths, said Dr. Michael Ryan of the WHO. 'If we think about this in terms of an analogy, we're planning to hand out extra life jackets to people who already have life jackets, while we're leaving other people to drown without a single life jacket.'"

https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2021/08/18/1028941909/why-a-push-for-boosters-could-make-the-pandemic-even-worse

 

Susan in TX

I definitely agree getting the world vaccinated is top priority. I’m glad the US is starting to get large numbers of doses sent out to other countries, and I’m really hoping some more production can be started on other continents.  As the story goes on to say, individuals refusing those booster doses isn’t the answer, though. That won’t do anything to help get those shots into unvaccinated arms. We have tons of doses in the US that can’t be sent elsewhere and would otherwise go to waste. The WHO’s message, and this goes for people in this country as well, is that the most important thing is to get everyone vaccinated initially with a two dose regimen, otherwise we all continue to be at risk.

"The problem is not enough people have been vaccinated. So our first priority is relatively simple: Get as many of the unvaccinated with two doses before you move beyond that."

The problem with a call for boosters, she said, is that the virus is primarily circulating in unvaccinated people — not in the fully vaccinated.

I do see a lot of people who are unvaccinated themselves making a point right now about the WHO not recommending third dose boosters, while leaving out that the reason for that is because of how important it is that everyone get their first two doses. It feels disingenuous in that context.

 

Edited by KSera
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1 hour ago, Danae said:

 

2. This is different than the third doses given to immune-compromised people.  The third dose for most people is to ensure longevity of immunity, the third dose for immune-compromised people is to get them up to the immunity level the rest of us got with two doses, so they should get their third dose ASAP.

 

Thank you so much for summarizing!

The above echoes what I've read from other sources. I'm assuming that in the absence of new/contradicting data that those of us who are immune compromised and getting third doses now will need boosters in eight months.

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19 hours ago, Danae said:

In every district whose policy I’m familiar with students with exemptions are required to stay out of the school building during active outbreaks of the disease(s) they are not vaccinated for.  They will be provided home-based education. And that goes back way before the internet, so it was mostly homework packets and visits from a teacher. 
 

That’s for their own protection and to help stop the outbreak.  

This has been protocol forever.  My kids don't have the Mumps vaccine, which they have a medical exemption for (after a severe reaction to the Measles alone vax, and now Mumps can only be gotten via the MMR, or they'd have gotten it... 😒).  But anyway, when we submitted their exemption paperwork at their universities, we were told in no uncertain terms that if there were a Mumps outbreak (and there have been some on college campuses), my kid would be sent home for the duration, and they'd have to figure out how to make up the work. 

This is not new information.  (not addressing this to you, Danae, rather a shout-out to all of those who seem to think that vaccine mandates, and the burden being on the UNvaccinated to stay out of public spaces during an outbreak, is somehow a new idea...)

Edited by Matryoshka
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23 hours ago, KSera said:

Right, but this goes both ways. It’s no more unfair for those who don’t want to be vaccinated than it is for those who don’t want to be at increased risk by being around those who aren’t vaccinated. They have to choose one way or the other to weight that risk; there is no neutral choice here that doesn’t infringe on anyone. Places that are mandating vaccines are weighting the choice in the direction that protects the most lives, rather than in the direction that risks them.

This. And I think the religious exemption should be discontinued. Public schools are secular institutions, and they should not be violating public health code by favoring religious status. Parents who have a deeply held belief against public school health code should put their children in the relevant religious school of choice. Medical exemptions are the accommodations they should make, not religious. 

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3 hours ago, Danae said:

Summary:  

1. The third dose is most effective after your immune system has had time to “digest” (my word) the first two doses so getting it early is less effective.  The eight month recommendation is based on the fact that the initial vaccines rolled out eight months ago, so to do it in an orderly fashion everyone should just get it eight months after their first.

2. This is different than the third doses given to immune-compromised people.  The third dose for most people is to ensure longevity of immunity, the third dose for immune-compromised people is to get them up to the immunity level the rest of us got with two doses, so they should get their third dose ASAP.

3. Getting unvaccinated people vaccinated will have a bigger impact on stopping spread than third doses. But the risk that offering thirds will cause unvaccinated people to think the vaccine doesn’t work isn’t a good reason to not do third doses. 
 

4. J&J roll-out was later than the initial Pfizer and Moderna roll-out and they’re still gathering/reviewing data on second shots.  By the time J&J recipients hit the eight month mark there will be a recommendation for them specifically.  

Was there anything about third doses for people who have been vaccinated and have already had Covid? I got Covid earlier in the year and waited 5 months for my first vaccination (am now fully vax'ed). Wondering if the natural immunity would work similarly to that booster shot.

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Just now, importswim said:

Was there anything about third doses for people who have been vaccinated and have already had Covid? I got Covid earlier in the year and waited 5 months for my first vaccination (am now fully vax'ed). Wondering if the natural immunity would work similarly to that booster shot.

No.  It was a fairly short interview.

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2 minutes ago, importswim said:

Was there anything about third doses for people who have been vaccinated and have already had Covid? I got Covid earlier in the year and waited 5 months for my first vaccination (am now fully vax'ed). Wondering if the natural immunity would work similarly to that booster shot.

I saw something in the last couple days about people who had Covid and then got fully vaccinated may have particularly robust immunity. I will share if I can find it.

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If one is immune compromised, but not severely so (not a transplant patient, cancer patient, etc, but immune compromised due to chronic health issues and the meds needed for management), is it possible to get tested to see if the vaccine induced antibodies are present?  Which test is that? 
 

I don’t know where DS and I fall, we are both considered immune compromised, but not severely so.  I take corticosteroids every day. My conditions are considered very rare, so finding them on a list is impossible. I did not think we were eligible for a shot now, but waiting until Dec, our 8 month mark, makes me nervous as well.

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21 hours ago, SKL said:

Well again, FDA approval needs to come first before they can discriminate against kids who aren't vaccinated.

It's not like kids can avoid Delta even if everyone in the room is vaccinated.

That's all I'm waiting for is full FDA approval.

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42 minutes ago, Spryte said:

I don’t know where DS and I fall, we are both considered immune compromised, but not severely so.  My conditions are considered very rare, so finding them on a list is impossible. I did not think we were eligible for a shot now, but waiting until Dec, our 8 month mark, makes me nervous as well.

I think once full FDA approval is complete, doctors will be able to order off label for their patients who they believe should have them before the 8 month mark. That's what I'm hearing at least. That (FDA approval) is most likely to happen long before your 8 month mark in December.

4 minutes ago, lynn said:

That's all I'm waiting for is full FDA approval.

Fortunately, that looks very near. For what it's worth, the wait for that isn't due to them still waiting for more data to be complete; this is perhaps the most highly tested product to go through the approval process. It's that the approval process itself involves so much process and paper and red tape that it takes a long time to get through. Most everything else anyone takes that is FDA approved had far less data before approval than these vaccines do. I'm hopeful the approval will come through in the next month or so. I do think it's appropriate that they are doing the full process without cutting corners, even though it's frustrating that it means some people are not protected who would be if full approval was complete. Hopefully many people who are waiting will see that they are much safer with the vaccine than taking their chances with Delta, and will be protected in time.

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36 minutes ago, JennyD said:

 Some Canadian provinces are letting some 11yos get vaccinated with Pfizer. 

Interesting that apparently these decisions are made at the provincial level in Canada?

 

Some provinces have been doing that all along.   Ontario decided to follow suit this week.

Health care is a provincial responsibility in Canada.  It's administered and funded by the provinces, but must be within the framework of the federal Canada Health Act.  Provinces all interpret the CHA a little differently.

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49 minutes ago, JennyD said:

 Some Canadian provinces are letting some 11yos get vaccinated with Pfizer. 

Interesting that apparently these decisions are made at the provincial level in Canada?

 

 

10 minutes ago, wathe said:

Some provinces have been doing that all along.   Ontario decided to follow suit this week.

Health care is a provincial responsibility in Canada.  It's administered and funded by the provinces, but must be within the framework of the federal Canada Health Act.  Provinces all interpret the CHA a little differently.

Does anyone know if they are doing the 30 microgram adult dose or the 10 microgram kid dose?

Edited by Syllieann
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NYT is reporting that full FDA approval for the Pfizer vaccine may come as soon as Monday --

Quote

The Food and Drug Administration is pushing to approve Pfizer-BioNTech’s two-dose Covid-19 vaccine on Monday, further expediting an earlier timeline for licensing the shot, according to people familiar with the agency’s planning.

Regulators were working to finish the process by Friday but were still working through a substantial amount of paperwork and negotiation with the company. The people familiar with the planning, who were not authorized to speak publicly about it, cautioned that the approval might slide beyond Monday if some components of the review need more time.

An F.D.A. spokeswoman declined to comment.

 

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5 hours ago, Susan in TX said:

From NPR about booster shots:

"Any available vaccine should first go to people around the world who are at high risk of hospitalization and deaths, said Dr. Michael Ryan of the WHO. 'If we think about this in terms of an analogy, we're planning to hand out extra life jackets to people who already have life jackets, while we're leaving other people to drown without a single life jacket.'"

https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2021/08/18/1028941909/why-a-push-for-boosters-could-make-the-pandemic-even-worse

 

Susan in TX

Just wanted to add-on to this thought…

”This profound global inequity would not only be a humanitarian disaster, but also a significant long-term risk for Americans, as scientists agree that accelerating global vaccination is the only way to prevent the formation of deadly new variants.” 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2021/08/18/why-biden-administrations-recommendation-booster-shots-is-mistake/

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2 hours ago, KSera said:

I saw something in the last couple days about people who had Covid and then got fully vaccinated may have particularly robust immunity. I will share if I can find it.

The New England Journal of Medicine published a study a couple of days ago that was summarized a lot in the news, but it was about people who had been infected with the original SARS virus and were recently vaccinated with Pfizer. Unfortunately they did not see the same response in people who had been vaccinated after being infected with the current virus. From an article in Nature:

"People who were infected almost two decades ago with the virus that causes severe acute respiratory syndrome (SARS) generate a powerful antibody response after being vaccinated against COVID-19. ...  Eight vaccinated study participants, who had recovered from SARS almost two decades ago, produced very high levels of neutralizing antibodies against both viruses, even after just one dose of the vaccine. They also produced a broad spectrum of neutralizing antibodies against three SARS-CoV-2 variants of concern in the current pandemic — Alpha, Beta and Delta — and five bat and pangolin sarbecoviruses. No such potent and wide-ranging antibody response was observed in blood samples taken from fully vaccinated individuals, even those who had also had COVID-19." 

https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-02260-9#ref-CR1

However, there have been other studies indicating that people who'd previously had covid and were fully vaxed had much higher levels of antibodies compared to those who had covid but were not vaxed, and IIRC there was also a study a while ago (UK maybe?) that showed the combination of infection plus vaccination was better than just vaccination alone. So it's possible that having had covid would be equivalent to getting a 3rd vaccine dose, but I doubt there have been any studies on that yet.

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New Harris Poll indicates that "33% of millennials say they have cuts ties with somebody in their life over not getting vaccinated against COVID-19, compared with 30% of Gen Zers, 9% of Gen Xers and 7% of baby boomers. Of all four generations surveyed, millennials are the group most likely to have younger children who are unvaccinated, which could contribute to the divide as parents may be concerned about the safety of their kids... In addition, older Americans tend to have a higher COVID-19 vaccination rate, which could contribute to the survey’s generational divide. Older Americans may know fewer unvaccinated people as 90.1% of Americans 65 and older have received at least one dose of the vaccine, compared with 59.7% of the overall U.S. population"

https://www.marketwatch.com/story/americans-are-creating-their-own-vaccine-mandates-by-cutting-ties-with-the-unvaccinated-11629138467?siteid=yhoof2

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2 hours ago, Vintage81 said:

Just wanted to add-on to this thought…

”This profound global inequity would not only be a humanitarian disaster, but also a significant long-term risk for Americans, as scientists agree that accelerating global vaccination is the only way to prevent the formation of deadly new variants.” 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2021/08/18/why-biden-administrations-recommendation-booster-shots-is-mistake/

I agree it's imperative to get the world vaccinated in order to prevent the formation of even worse variants, and also just to prevent this from going on and on and from taking even more lives as it does so. Also again, that imperative applies also to the US, as deadly new variants can form within our population just as easily as in other countries with a lot of unvaccinated people. So I'm hoping everyone worried about this problem and about the problems it may cause on a global scale starts local with the first step they can take personally to help, by making sure they are fully vaccinated themself (usual caveats apply about as long as not medically contraindicated).

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10 hours ago, Danae said:

Summary:  

1. The third dose is most effective after your immune system has had time to “digest” (my word) the first two doses so getting it early is less effective.  The eight month recommendation is based on the fact that the initial vaccines rolled out eight months ago, so to do it in an orderly fashion everyone should just get it eight months after their first.

2. This is different than the third doses given to immune-compromised people.  The third dose for most people is to ensure longevity of immunity, the third dose for immune-compromised people is to get them up to the immunity level the rest of us got with two doses, so they should get their third dose ASAP.

3. Getting unvaccinated people vaccinated will have a bigger impact on stopping spread than third doses. But the risk that offering thirds will cause unvaccinated people to think the vaccine doesn’t work isn’t a good reason to not do third doses. 
 

4. J&J roll-out was later than the initial Pfizer and Moderna roll-out and they’re still gathering/reviewing data on second shots.  By the time J&J recipients hit the eight month mark there will be a recommendation for them specifically.  

Thanks!

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on the subject of creating new variants...

In minutes from its July 7 meeting, SAGE scientists wrote that "the combination of high prevalence and high levels of vaccination creates the conditions in which an immune escape variant is most likely to emerge." It said at the time that "the likelihood of this happening is unknown, but such a variant would present a significant risk both in the UK and internationally."

https://www.cnn.com/2021/08/01/health/uk-scientists-covid-variant-beat-vaccines-intl/

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7 minutes ago, mommyoffive said:

Does anyone think this will impact the kid vaccine at all?

Someone posted upthread a post from a doctor saying that the doctors can use it off label for younger kids, but I haven't seen that anywhere else despite searching.  I did find one place (low quality source like a blog or sonething) where someone said they can only use it off-label for 12+.  I haven't been able to find any other information.  It's also unclear if off-label use can have the dose adjusted.

Edited by Syllieann
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9 hours ago, Syllieann said:

 

Does anyone know if they are doing the 30 microgram adult dose or the 10 microgram kid dose?

Full 30 mic dose.  We are treating those who turn 12 by Dec 31 as 12-year-olds.

It makes sense in our province, as the school age cut-off is Dec 31.  So this way all children entering grade 7 (by age) will be eligible for their first dose before school starts after Labour Day.  Rather than just 2/3 of the class.

Edited by wathe
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7 hours ago, wathe said:

Full 30 mic dose.  We are treating those who turn 12 by Dec 31 as 12-year-olds.

It makes sense in our province, as the school age cut-off is Dec 31.  So this way all children entering grade 7 (by age) will be eligible for their first dose before school starts after Labour Day.  Rather than just 2/3 of the class.

I'm actually a bit concerned about this - my 11 yr old will be 12 in beginning of Feb. She will get 1/3 the dose she'd get if we waited a few more months. 

But on the other hand, she's WAY smaller than me, so it makes sense she'd get a lower dose than me. She is under 90lbs, I think only around 80. 

 

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12 minutes ago, ktgrok said:

I'm actually a bit concerned about this - my 11 yr old will be 12 in beginning of Feb. She will get 1/3 the dose she'd get if we waited a few more months. 

But on the other hand, she's WAY smaller than me, so it makes sense she'd get a lower dose than me. She is under 90lbs, I think only around 80. 

 

If it makes you feel better, my 14yr old is under 80lbs and had minimal side effects. She had a sore arm for about 24hrs and that's all. 

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7 hours ago, wathe said:

Full 30 mic dose.  We are treating those who turn 12 by Dec 31 as 12-year-olds.

It makes sense in our province, as the school age cut-off is Dec 31.  So this way all children entering grade 7 (by age) will be eligible for their first dose before school starts after Labour Day.  Rather than just 2/3 of the class.

I think this makes sense.  I mean, as far as our bodies work, age really doesn't mean anything in this context.

Dd13 is small for her age (under 5th percentile in height and weight), yet we had no trouble having her vaccinated.  I'm sure that nearly all 12 year olds would be just fine with the same dosage.

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25 minutes ago, Paige said:

If it makes you feel better, my 14yr old is under 80lbs and had minimal side effects. She had a sore arm for about 24hrs and that's all. 

I'm more worried that she's going to get vaccinated before turning 12, as we want to vaccinate as soon as it is approved (hearing October maybe). So she will get the 10mcg instead of the 30mcg dose she'd get if it was a few months later and she was already 12. So hoping it is "enough" but I guess if bigger 10 yr olds get that does, it probably is enough. 

and likely they will get a booster at some point...and by then she'd be 12. 

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12 minutes ago, ktgrok said:

I'm more worried that she's going to get vaccinated before turning 12, as we want to vaccinate as soon as it is approved (hearing October maybe). So she will get the 10mcg instead of the 30mcg dose she'd get if it was a few months later and she was already 12. So hoping it is "enough" but I guess if bigger 10 yr olds get that does, it probably is enough. 

and likely they will get a booster at some point...and by then she'd be 12. 

I was thinking about this for my 10 year old too.  I'd rather she get the adult dose or the larger Moderna dose, but my 8 year old boy I definitely want getting the 10 micrograms to limit myocarditis risk.  Hopefully this is something doctors can decide to do for some older kids once the full approval comes through for Pfizer.

Edited by Syllieann
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45 minutes ago, mommyoffive said:

For those who don’t click through:

“Importantly, for the young people who do [experience it after vaccination], most cases are mild, and individuals recover often on their own or with minimal treatment,” a joint statement co-signed by the Department of Health and Human Services, American Heart Association, and 16 others said. “In addition, we know that myocarditis and pericarditis are much more common if you get COVID-19, and the risks to the heart from COVID-19 infection can be more severe.”

 

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9 minutes ago, KSera said:

For those who don’t click through:

“Importantly, for the young people who do [experience it after vaccination], most cases are mild, and individuals recover often on their own or with minimal treatment,” a joint statement co-signed by the Department of Health and Human Services, American Heart Association, and 16 others said. “In addition, we know that myocarditis and pericarditis are much more common if you get COVID-19, and the risks to the heart from COVID-19 infection can be more severe.”

 

And also that this is really only for young males.  Notably, 2.5 times the risk of Pfizer which is not too far off from the dosage difference. Makes sense.  My remaining unvaccinated boy will get Pfizer.

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2 hours ago, Junie said:

I think this makes sense.  I mean, as far as our bodies work, age really doesn't mean anything in this context.

Dd13 is small for her age (under 5th percentile in height and weight), yet we had no trouble having her vaccinated.  I'm sure that nearly all 12 year olds would be just fine with the same dosage.

Yes.   For most vaccines, paediatric (even babies) and adult doses are the same.  For some (shingles, hep), the adult dose is higher (to accommodate for poorer immune response in adults), And for others, the adult dose is actually lower  (Pertussis, dipheria boosters - to minimize immune-mediated side-effects more common adults, who already have some immunity).   

Really, an 11 year old's immune system isn't meaningfully less mature than a 12 year olds.  The age cut-off is somewhat arbitrary.

There is no such thing as 10 mic dosing here.  I don' think that dose has been approved for anyone, anywhere yet?

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39 minutes ago, WildflowerMom said:

Y’all!!!!  My ds20 is getting his first dose of MODERNA tomorrow!!!!!!!!   I’ve begged and begged and finally he said yes!!!!!!!   🙌🏽🙌🏽🙌🏽🙌🏽🙌🏽🙌🏽🙌🏽🙌🏽🙌🏽🙌🏽

I completely understand this.  I was so happy when my college kids decided to get vaccinated.

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1 hour ago, WildflowerMom said:

Y’all!!!!  My ds20 is getting his first dose of MODERNA tomorrow!!!!!!!!   I’ve begged and begged and finally he said yes!!!!!!!   🙌🏽🙌🏽🙌🏽🙌🏽🙌🏽🙌🏽🙌🏽🙌🏽🙌🏽🙌🏽

So happy for you.  I'm waiting impatiently on my 24 year old ds.  He's the only one eligible in our family who hasn't had the vaccine.  I really don't know why. . . I'm afraid to ask because he does have a church family that has a large, vocal anti-vaccine component.  

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