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The Vaccine Thread


JennyD

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On 8/7/2021 at 7:16 PM, Corraleno said:

Mamtani is a stock analyst, though, he may have said that simply based on the positive news about Novavax's booster trial. If they won't even be ready to submit an EUA application until the end of the year, when not only Pfizer but likely Moderna and possibly even J&J, have full approval, I don't know what their odds are for getting an EUA at that point.

Maybe if they could prove that a Novavax booster had better results than the Pfizer or Moderna ones? But the data Pfizer released recently on their booster trials showed numbers as good or better than Novavax, so I don't know if that's likely either. My guess is that Novavax will have to wait until they have enough data to apply for full approval, and then depending on where things stand in the US at that point w/regard to cases, variants, % vaxed, etc., they may or may not even get an "expedited" approval process like Pfizer did. Maybe they can get their flu/covid shot approved for fall 2022?

I suspect if the EU or UK have given Novovax EUA status by that point, the USA might be more inclined to follow suit.

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20 hours ago, mommyoffive said:

A friend texted about this today.  His dd just finished college on rotc and he is madder than all get out about this.  He says he's not going to let them do that, etc.  Says it's his hill to die on.  The more I think about it the madder I get.  It was ok for them to pay for her college and fine for her to work in a safe job on the base, but not a vaccine that's already been given safely to millions of people!  What if she got deployed?  Is it ok for her to be in enemy territory where she could be severely injured or killed?  What are the possible long term consequences of that?  But she can't be expected to take a vaccine that will prevent having our troops being stricken down, ugh.  You don't sign up for the military and then expect 100% personal autonomy, wtf?  Sorry, done ranting.

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45 minutes ago, Syllieann said:

A friend texted about this today.  His dd just finished college on rotc and he is madder than all get out about this.  He says he's not going to let them do that, etc.  Says it's his hill to die on.  The more I think about it the madder I get.  It was ok for them to pay for her college and fine for her to work in a safe job on the base, but not a vaccine that's already been given safely to millions of people!  What if she got deployed?  Is it ok for her to be in enemy territory where she could be severely injured or killed?  What are the possible long term consequences of that?  But she can't be expected to take a vaccine that will prevent having our troops being stricken down, ugh.  You don't sign up for the military and then expect 100% personal autonomy, wtf?  Sorry, done ranting.

I agree completely. You join, and basically the military owns you for the duration of the contract. Don't like it! Don't join. They have always required a ton of vaccines due to international travel, less than hygienic living conditions. This is not news. And they do have the legal right to change things during the duration of the contract. It is disingenuous to join the "big bad gubmint" military force in order to get free tuition and room and board in the ROTC dorms, and then turn around and winge about that same government having the audacity to require a new vaccine to protect the troops or the civilians the troops come in contact with, etc. Doesn't do us a hell of a lot of good to have covid ravaging national guard bases when the next big natural disaster hits or overwhelming V.A.hospitals.

Ugh.

Edited by Faith-manor
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18 minutes ago, Syllieann said:

A friend texted about this today.  His dd just finished college on rotc and he is madder than all get out about this.  He says he's not going to let them do that, etc.  Says it's his hill to die on.  The more I think about it the madder I get.  It was ok for them to pay for her college and fine for her to work in a safe job on the base, but not a vaccine that's already been given safely to millions of people!  What if she got deployed?  Is it ok for her to be in enemy territory where she could be severely injured or killed?  What are the possible long term consequences of that?  But she can't be expected to take a vaccine that will prevent having our troops being stricken down, ugh.  You don't sign up for the military and then expect 100% personal autonomy, wtf?  Sorry, done ranting.

Not to mention that his DD is an adult and gets to make her own decision. So what difference does it make if it's his hill to die on? Good grief. He needs to grow up.

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Is Moderna vaccine better against Delta than Pfizer's?   with the full pdf of the study https://www.nj.com/coronavirus/2021/08/is-modernas-covid-vaccine-better-against-delta-than-pfizers-researchers-weigh-in.html (preprint) 

To note: "Finally, while we did observe a recent reduction in vaccine effectiveness in July, we did not analyze the risk of infection relative to the date of vaccination. The reduced effectiveness could be due to waning immunity over time, the dynamic landscape of SARS-CoV-2 variants, or other factors that were not considered here.

😖 

 

Edited by melmichigan
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5 minutes ago, mommyoffive said:

Thank you for sharing! This really made my day. My mom (the one who had a lobe of her lung removed, and has serious COPD) and dad (hx of heart disease) both had Moderna. My mom in particular we've been SO worried about. She has to leave the house for physical therapy for her shattered shoulder, so can't totally stay home. Plus other doctor appointments. In florida. Seeing this relieved a bit of stress for. me. 

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2 minutes ago, ktgrok said:

Thank you for sharing! This really made my day. My mom (the one who had a lobe of her lung removed, and has serious COPD) and dad (hx of heart disease) both had Moderna. My mom in particular we've been SO worried about. She has to leave the house for physical therapy for her shattered shoulder, so can't totally stay home. Plus other doctor appointments. In florida. Seeing this relieved a bit of stress for. me. 

Can your mom get a booster with the new recs? 

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I really wish there was reliable info on which vaccines the people who have the breakthrough cases received -- even if it is only for the hospitalized cases.

I wonder if it does come out that Moderna is slightly better at protecting against breakthrough if they will be able to determine why-- 4 weeks between shots vs 3? Higher amount in each shot? Or the actual "formula"?

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8 minutes ago, RootAnn said:

I really wish there was reliable info on which vaccines the people who have the breakthrough cases received -- even if it is only for the hospitalized cases.

I wonder if it does come out that Moderna is slightly better at protecting against breakthrough if they will be able to determine why-- 4 weeks between shots vs 3? Higher amount in each shot? Or the actual "formula"?

I think it's more likely to be the much higher dose (100 µg vs 30) vs the slightly longer interval, because one of the studies on the efficacy of 1 dose of the different vaccines found that Moderna's 1 dose efficacy was higher than Pfizer's.

ETA: I wonder if the higher initial dose is also why Moderna's booster had much less effect than Pfizer's?

Edited by Corraleno
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2 minutes ago, Corraleno said:

I think it's more likely to be the much higher dose (100 µg vs 30) vs the slightly longer interval, because one of the studies on the efficacy of 1 dose of the different vaccines found that Moderna's 1 dose efficacy was higher than Pfizer's.

ETA: I wonder if the higher initial dose is also why Moderna's booster had much less effect than Pfizer's?

I recall in the clinical trial data, when I was still between doses for my Moderna, seeing that after two weeks out from the first Moderna, the efficacy was already very close to the two dose number. I can’t recall the exact number anymore. I would expect overtime though, the efficacy of having had only one shot would fade faster than with two.

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Does anyone know the Modern a dose that made it to phase 2/3 for 5-11 year olds?  I'm wondering if it's higher than the adult Pfizer dose?

NM, found it, 50 micrograms.  That certainly makes it tempting to lie about how old your 11 year old is to get vaccinated before school starts.   https://madison.com/wsj/news/local/health-med-fit/moderna-covid-19-vaccine-study-for-children-under-12-starting-at-uw-health/article_47103605-d395-55a2-9785-1c01c470c125.html

Edited by Syllieann
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https://julieroys.com/florida-megachurch-covid-vaccine-clinic/?fbclid=IwAR0W4KohgSqNhCaJP_zFFClOdl_D-R9Z5newbWLy9hfaWQJYzz8V9ylEifo

A church in FL had quite a few people willing to get vaccinated explicitly because the church encouraged it. Sounds like quite a few congregants are black Americans who were leery of past exploitation. I am glad the church made this move!

 

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2 hours ago, Syllieann said:

Does anyone know the Modern a dose that made it to phase 2/3 for 5-11 year olds?  I'm wondering if it's higher than the adult Pfizer dose?

NM, found it, 50 micrograms.  That certainly makes it tempting to lie about how old your 11 year old is to get vaccinated before school starts.   https://madison.com/wsj/news/local/health-med-fit/moderna-covid-19-vaccine-study-for-children-under-12-starting-at-uw-health/article_47103605-d395-55a2-9785-1c01c470c125.html

YOu still can't get a Moderna shot for 12-17 right???

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22 minutes ago, mommyoffive said:

YOu still can't get a Moderna shot for 12-17 right???

No, you can't.  I just meant that if Modern a thinks 50 micrograms is good enough to test on a few thousand 5-11 year olds, it makes the Pfizer dose for 12 year olds seem like it would be fine with plenty of margin.  I don't have an eleven year old or a child going to school, so it doesn't change my life.  But if I did, I would be a little ticked at health care professionals saying the 11 year olds shouldn't lie and get the Pfizer before heading back to school "because we don't know if the dosage would be too high for them."

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1 minute ago, mommyoffive said:

Why would you do that vs maybe Pfizer coming soon?

If it comes soon, it comes soon. I have no idea how soon it's coming. I'd rather be in a trial in September than wait for December and wait for COVID to catch up to us while we wait. 

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2 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

If it comes soon, it comes soon. I have no idea how soon it's coming. I'd rather be in a trial in September than wait for December and wait for COVID to catch up to us while we wait. 

But if you got in the trial it lasts 14 months.  If you don't get a real shot and then Pfizer comes out what can you do at that point? 

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2 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

If it comes soon, it comes soon. I have no idea how soon it's coming. I'd rather be in a trial in September than wait for December and wait for COVID to catch up to us while we wait. 

But what if she ends up in the placebo group for 6 months before you're unblinded?  I'd rather wait 4 months for Pfizer and at least know.

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1 minute ago, mommyoffive said:

But if you got in the trial it lasts 14 months.  If you don't get a real shot and then Pfizer comes out what can you do at that point? 

Hm. Is it actually 14 months until a shot? It's possible I didn't think this through, lol. 

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8 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

Hm. Is it actually 14 months until a shot? It's possible I didn't think this through, lol. 

I am not sure if you wait that long.  It sounds like the whole trial is that long.

 

Participation in the KidCOVE Study lasts approximately 14 months and includes phone calls, telemedicine visits, and up to seven visits to the study site.

  • Your child will be given two injections in the upper arm – about 28 days apart. Your child has a chance of receiving either the mRNA-1273 study vaccine or the placebo. By using a placebo, medical researchers are able to understand if the study vaccine is effective in preventing COVID-19.

  • You and your child will be asked to return to the study site up to six times depending on their enrollment assignment.

  • You and your child will have two telemedicine visits with the study doctor after each injection, and then monthly after that to monitor for COVID-19 symptoms. During these phone calls, the study doctor and medical staff will check how your child is feeling and ask for updates on their health.

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Just now, mommyoffive said:

I am not sure if you wait that long.  It sounds like the whole trial is that long.

 

Participation in the KidCOVE Study lasts approximately 14 months and includes phone calls, telemedicine visits, and up to seven visits to the study site.

  • Your child will be given two injections in the upper arm – about 28 days apart. Your child has a chance of receiving either the mRNA-1273 study vaccine or the placebo. By using a placebo, medical researchers are able to understand if the study vaccine is effective in preventing COVID-19.

  • You and your child will be asked to return to the study site up to six times depending on their enrollment assignment.

  • You and your child will have two telemedicine visits with the study doctor after each injection, and then monthly after that to monitor for COVID-19 symptoms. During these phone calls, the study doctor and medical staff will check how your child is feeling and ask for updates on their health.

I've been looking, and I can't find info on when one could actually get the vaccine. 

The thing that was kind of swaying me towards trying a trial was that most kids will get the vaccine. 3/4 kids will get the vaccine... that means the chance of both my kids getting the vaccine would actually be above 1/2, assuming it's random (and I hope it is.) 

But waiting 14 months wouldn't be worth it. 

 

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59 minutes ago, Syllieann said:

No, you can't.  I just meant that if Modern a thinks 50 micrograms is good enough to test on a few thousand 5-11 year olds, it makes the Pfizer dose for 12 year olds seem like it would be fine with plenty of margin.  I don't have an eleven year old or a child going to school, so it doesn't change my life.  But if I did, I would be a little ticked at health care professionals saying the 11 year olds shouldn't lie and get the Pfizer before heading back to school "because we don't know if the dosage would be too high for them."

I'm trying to be patient, waiting for dd11 to be able to be vaccinated.  She will be the last one and I will feel like we don't have to be locked down quite so tightly.

The frustrating thing here is that dd11 are nearly the same size, but dd13 was able to be vaccinated...

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Vaccine hesitant groups by education level are PhDs, less than high school, and some college according to a study conducted by researchers from Carnegie Mellon University and the University of Pittsburgh. 

https://www.upmc.com/media/news/072621-king-mejia-vaccine-hesitancy

https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.07.20.21260795v1.full-text

Racially, the hesitant are likely to be native American, multi-racial, or black (top 3). 

Region-wise, Mountain, Midwest, and South are all pretty much tied.

And by Trump vote share, the highest quartile. 

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So, DH’s hospital has finally announced mandatory vaccines.  He fully expects at least 20% to quit before the deadline.  They are already so mad over management conditions.  Some of those staff members would be fairly irreplaceable.  

Edited by Sdel
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7 hours ago, Corraleno said:

I think it's more likely to be the much higher dose (100 µg vs 30) vs the slightly longer interval, because one of the studies on the efficacy of 1 dose of the different vaccines found that Moderna's 1 dose efficacy was higher than Pfizer's.

ETA: I wonder if the higher initial dose is also why Moderna's booster had much less effect than Pfizer's?

I'm still having a hard time with the study not taking into account when these breakthrough infections occurred in relation to vaccination.  Most people vaccinated early were vaccinated with Pfizer.  If immunity is waning, as they are stating in other countries, it would make sense that it would impact Pfizer more than Moderna.

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4 hours ago, Syllieann said:

No, you can't.  I just meant that if Modern a thinks 50 micrograms is good enough to test on a few thousand 5-11 year olds, it makes the Pfizer dose for 12 year olds seem like it would be fine with plenty of margin.  I don't have an eleven year old or a child going to school, so it doesn't change my life.  But if I did, I would be a little ticked at health care professionals saying the 11 year olds shouldn't lie and get the Pfizer before heading back to school "because we don't know if the dosage would be too high for them."

Yeah, I'm a little annoyed about this too. DD is 11 and 9 months old. I thought about lying about her age during the summer so she could be fully vaxxed by the time school started (yesterday). I decided against it. I'm too much of a rule follower, I guess. But now I'm regretting it. DD's school is in major COVID denial. Hardly any kids or teachers wear masks and there is no social distancing. DD is really glad to be back in school so I don't want to pull her out. But I think it's inevitable that she is exposed and I'd feel so much more comfortable if she was vaccinated. 

But no, not vaccinated because of a few months. 

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1 hour ago, Sdel said:

So, DH’s hospital has finally announced mandatory vaccines.  He fully expects at least 20% to quit before the deadline.  They are already so mad over management conditions.  Some of those staff members would be fairly irreplaceable.  

We'll see. Only 150 people were terminated by Houston Methodist when they imposed a vaccine mandate out of about 25K employees. 

I'm always sympathetic to healthcare workers. It's a tough job and many hospitals have done a terrible job during this pandemic. They've punished employees for speaking out about inadequate PPE, forced people to work overtime, etc. 

But it's not an unreasonable request that hospital employees be vaccinated for COVID. Other vaccinations are required. 

 

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1 minute ago, Ordinary Shoes said:

We'll see. Only 150 people were terminated by Houston Methodist when they imposed a vaccine mandate out of about 25K employees. 

I’m not going to get into the reasons…but yes, I think they will.

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10 hours ago, RootAnn said:

Vaccine hesitant groups by education level are PhDs, less than high school, and some college according to a study conducted by researchers from Carnegie Mellon University and the University of Pittsburgh. 

https://www.upmc.com/media/news/072621-king-mejia-vaccine-hesitancy

https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.07.20.21260795v1.full-text

Racially, the hesitant are likely to be native American, multi-racial, or black (top 3). 

Region-wise, Mountain, Midwest, and South are all pretty much tied.

And by Trump vote share, the highest quartile. 

I'm not sure why how all the regions are tied. I guess I need to read the whole thing to figure out how he collected data but the northeast (Connecticut, Vermont, Mass. etc) and southern states (Mississippi, Alabama, Florida, Louisiana) have drastically different vaccination rates and it isn't because availability. How does that fit with regions are tied?

Are they saying they are similar if you account for difference in voting and education levels?

 

I should more of it I guess but it is after midnight.

Edited by frogger
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4 hours ago, frogger said:

northeast (Connecticut, Vermont, Mass. etc) and southern states (Mississippi, Alabama, Florida, Louisiana) have drastically different vaccination rates

Yes. The Northeast and Pacific regions have lower vaccine hesitancy than the Midwest, South, & Mountain regions according to the survey.

I've simplified the data. But this is percent of vaccine hesitancy by US Region in May (from the survey,):

Midwest 18.1%

South 19.2%

Pacific. 12.1%

Mountain. 17.9%

Northeast. 12.6%

Territories 12.0%

https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.07.20.21260795v1.full.pdf+html

Edited by RootAnn
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FDA authorizes third dose of Pfizer, Moderna shots for immunocompromised (msn.com)

The broadened EUAs specifically permit solid-organ transplant patients or people with other conditions "that are considered to have an equivalent level of immunocompromise" to access additional doses, the agency said in a press release.

"After a thorough review of the available data, the FDA determined that this small, vulnerable group may benefit from a third dose of the Pfizer-BioNTech or Moderna Vaccines,” acting Commissioner Janet Woodcock said in a statement.

Woodcock emphasized that people whose immune systems are not compromised — the vast majority of Americans — do not need additional vaccine doses.

It does not apply to recipients of Johnson & Johnson's single-dose vaccine, though federal officials believe that very few immunocompromised people got that shot given the timing of its rollout compared to when many of those patients were allowed to get inoculated during the late-winter vaccination campaign.

"The strong recommendation would be to stay with the shot that you" initially received when getting an additional dose, Anthony Fauci, President Joe Biden's chief medical adviser, said Thursday.

 

“Apart from the immunocompromised, we do not believe that others — elderly or not elderly — who are not immunocompromised need a vaccine right at this moment," Fauci said. "But this is a dynamic process — the data will be evaluated.”

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1 hour ago, mommyoffive said:

Back in March, after haunting websites trying to find available vaccines, my reaction to securing Moderna for dh and myself was something along the lines of "whew, got jabs, and they're nearly as good as Pfizer." Now, I'm feeling lucky we got Moderna. Wish the kids had been able to, also, though I'm not discounting Pfizer's protection.

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17 hours ago, RootAnn said:

Vaccine hesitant groups by education level are PhDs, less than high school, and some college according to a study conducted by researchers from Carnegie Mellon University and the University of Pittsburgh. 

https://www.upmc.com/media/news/072621-king-mejia-vaccine-hesitancy

https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.07.20.21260795v1.full-text

Racially, the hesitant are likely to be native American, multi-racial, or black (top 3). 

Region-wise, Mountain, Midwest, and South are all pretty much tied.

And by Trump vote share, the highest quartile. 

This study might be proof that Facebook surveys on things like this really don’t give good data, I’m thinking. I went looking at it because you said they list Native Americans as one of the top three most hesitant groups, which is at direct odds with what I’ve read. Despite obstacles, Native Americans have the nation’s highest COVID-19 vaccination rate (just realized this is a brand new article, and I’ve been reading the same thing for months, so it hasn’t changed). 

If they have an error this big, I expect it might the rest of their data as well. 
 

I’m actually formulating a research idea that even a high school student could do. It would be possible to run some surveys on FB about things that there are good, peer reviewed studies about, and then compare FB data to the peer reviewed data. Would be interesting. 

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45 minutes ago, Innisfree said:

Back in March, after haunting websites trying to find available vaccines, my reaction to securing Moderna for dh and myself was something along the lines of "whew, got jabs, and they're nearly as good as Pfizer." Now, I'm feeling lucky we got Moderna. Wish the kids had been able to, also, though I'm not discounting Pfizer's protection.

100% same for me.  I was wanting Pfizer back in the day.  I so wish the kids have gotten Moderna too.   Do you know why Moderna still doesn't have the 12-17 shot out yet?  

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51 minutes ago, Innisfree said:

Back in March, after haunting websites trying to find available vaccines, my reaction to securing Moderna for dh and myself was something along the lines of "whew, got jabs, and they're nearly as good as Pfizer." Now, I'm feeling lucky we got Moderna. Wish the kids had been able to, also, though I'm not discounting Pfizer's protection.

Same, Initially I thought the order I would want them in would be J&J, Phizer, Moderna. The shine came off J & J before I could get it and we couldn't get into the health department that had Phizer. Dh and I got Moderna and now I'm glad. All my kids and my extended family all got Phizer. It is only dh and I that had Moderna and I was jealous. Shows what I know, no matter all my reading and researching.

I also said I didn't want to go to Walmart for my shot because everything at Walmart is always all messed up and I said I didn't trust them to keep it at the right temp, etc. But it was Walmart that we got into easily and quickly and they did a good job with the whole process both times. 

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2 hours ago, RootAnn said:

Yes. The Northeast and Pacific regions have lower vaccine hesitancy than the Midwest, South, & Mountain regions according to the survey.

I've simplified the data. But this is percent of vaccine hesitancy by US Region in May (from the survey,):

Midwest 18.1%

South 19.2%

Pacific. 12.1%

Mountain. 17.9%

Northeast. 12.6%

Territories 12.0%

https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.07.20.21260795v1.full.pdf+html

I guess what I'm wondering is why Alabama has a vaccination rates in the 30's if only 19.2% are vaccine hesitant. It doesn't pass the sniff test. I need to read it more carefully but I'm off to teach my kids Algebra. I realize there are a lot of variables. Are they counting ineligible kids in the vaccination rates? I'm sure there are more kids in rural areas than the a highrise studio in NY for example but it is hard for me to make the case that 20% hesitancy and 35% currently vaccinated add up in any meaningful way.  

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5 minutes ago, frogger said:

I guess what I'm wondering is why Alabama has a vaccination rates in the 30's if only 19.2% are vaccine hesitant. It doesn't pass the sniff test. I need to read it more carefully but I'm off to teach my kids Algebra. I realize there are a lot of variables. Are they counting ineligible kids in the vaccination rates? I'm sure there are more kids in rural areas than the a highrise studio in NY for example but it is hard for me to make the case that 20% hesitancy and 35% currently vaccinated add up in any meaningful way.  

NY has plenty of kids, as far as I know. 

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