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The Vaccine Thread


JennyD

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1 hour ago, JennyD said:

Yeah, there was some sort of deal that let them buy a whole bunch of doses earlier in exchange for the loads of data that the 4 big HMOs collect on the population.  Also they paid through the nose, much more than Europe or the US as I recall.

I doubt that they're getting data before the rest of the world, though.    I think the Israeli ministry of health is just less risk-averse than the FDA.

 

I think they are the data. That was the deal. They get vaccine early and in exchange they serve in a way as a test case. 
I am amazed how they sold this to their population. I can tell people in my ancestral country would have objected being what they would see as “test monkeys.” 

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4 minutes ago, Corraleno said:

I'm not sure where they would have gotten the 1/10th figure from. The trial protocol says they are testing 10/20/30 µg in all three age groups, down to 6 months.

Moderna is using much higher doses — they're testing 50/100 µg in ages 2-11 and 25/50/100 µg in 6 months to <2. (Those doses seem crazy high to me for babies and toddlers considering the extent of side effects in adults.)

ETA: I wonder if the person who wrote that article confused the adult doses of Pfizer & Moderna? Because 10 µg is 1/10th of the Moderna dose, but Moderna isn't testing that dose in any age.

I know I've seen the 1/10 figure in other articles as well -- I bet you're right that someone initially confused the Moderna/Pfizer doses and then it just gets picked up by other outlets.

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2 minutes ago, Roadrunner said:

I think they are the data. That was the deal. They get vaccine early and in exchange they serve in a way as a test case. 
I am amazed how they sold this to their population. I can tell people in my ancestral country would have objected being what they would see as “test monkeys.” 

In general, Israelis tend to be pretty enthusiastic about medical interventions and the culture puts a high value on improvisation, especially in emergencies.  

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The Pfizer dose that made it to phase 2/3 for the 5-11 years is the 10 micrograms.  The vaccine dosage for moderna is higher, but I'm not sure that corresponds to more mrna strands because they use different ingredients to, um, encapsulate it, I guess you could say.  It might be that there is more non-mrna material per microliter of moderna.  Or it could be that there really is more mrna; I just don't think we can say that is definitely the case based solely on volume.

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34 minutes ago, Syllieann said:

The Pfizer dose that made it to phase 2/3 for the 5-11 years is the 10 micrograms.  The vaccine dosage for moderna is higher, but I'm not sure that corresponds to more mrna strands because they use different ingredients to, um, encapsulate it, I guess you could say.  It might be that there is more non-mrna material per microliter of moderna.  Or it could be that there really is more mrna; I just don't think we can say that is definitely the case based solely on volume.

No, the figures of 30 & 100 μg represent the actual amount of mRNA, it's not the total volume of the vaccine dose. E.g. this is the description of Moderna from the European Medicines Agency:

"The finished product (also referred to in this report as mRNA-1273) is presented as a dispersion for injection containing 100 μg/0.5 mL dose of single-stranded, 5’ capped mRNA encoding full length SARS-CoV-2 Spike (S) protein as the active substance (referred to by the applicant as CX-024414), which is embedded in lipid nanoparticles (LNPs)."

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Vaccine passports for events to encourage vaccination among the young:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/jul/29/vaccine-passport-plan-intended-to-coax-young-to-have-jabs-says-raab

First jabs among the young in England (who became eligible later and often haven't progressed to second) is only around 60% I think, whereas for older adults full vaccination is close to 100%.

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5 minutes ago, JennyD said:

A relative in Israel texted me that he just reserved his third Pfizer shot for next week.  Apparently boosters were just approved for 60+.

 

Ooh. I hope this happens here soon. I’m getting worried about my in-laws.

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6 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

I’d like a booster myself, lol.

How are you guys doing? How’s your DS?

So far so good. He's annoyed because his fancy ghost pepper jerky he bought doesn't taste like it should - not spicy enough. That's the biggest complaint, lol. 

No fever, spO2 perfect, minor congestion that is normal for him. 

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I have a real concern that booster shots are going to be a hard sell. Especially if we are heading back to mandatory masking, I can see a lot of people figuring why bother vaccinating if they have to mask anyway.  Our vax rates hyper locally are about 30% of eligible adults where I live, with 50% of eligible adults where I work.  The on the fence people only vaxxed so they’d get away from wearing masks.  
 

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Just now, Mrs Tiggywinkle said:

I have a real concern that booster shots are going to be a hard sell. Especially if we are heading back to mandatory masking, I can see a lot of people figuring why bother vaccinating if they have to mask anyway.  Our vax rates hyper locally are about 30% of eligible adults where I live, with 50% of eligible adults where I work.  The on the fence people only vaxxed so they’d get away from wearing masks.  
 

Well, we are masking because without boosters we are having too many breakthrough cases, and more than that, because so many are not vaccinating. 

I think a 2 dose series should probably count as vaccinated, with optional boosters for those that want them, at this point. 

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18 minutes ago, JennyD said:

A relative in Israel texted me that he just reserved his third Pfizer shot for next week.  Apparently boosters were just approved for 60+.

 

Please happen here soon.  I heard something fast on the news last night (don't have an article on it) that said a 3rd shot gives 5 times protection for young people and 11 times for older people.  

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5 minutes ago, Mrs Tiggywinkle said:

I have a real concern that booster shots are going to be a hard sell. Especially if we are heading back to mandatory masking, I can see a lot of people figuring why bother vaccinating if they have to mask anyway.  Our vax rates hyper locally are about 30% of eligible adults where I live, with 50% of eligible adults where I work.  The on the fence people only vaxxed so they’d get away from wearing masks.  
 

Honestly, at this point I don’t care what other people do. I had worse side effects with the vaccine than most of this forum, and I still want a booster. Nothing I’ve read makes me want to get COVID unprotected. 

I hope people take the boosters. But if they don’t, that’s on them. 

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3 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

Honestly, at this point I don’t care what other people do. I had worse side effects with the vaccine than most of this forum, and I still want a booster. Nothing I’ve read makes me want to get COVID unprotected. 

I hope people take the boosters. But if they don’t, that’s on them. 

You say that now. But 6 months from now I can see the villifying start for those who reject the boosters.  The goalposts keep moving to avoid cultural condemination

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6 minutes ago, ktgrok said:

Well, we are masking because without boosters we are having too many breakthrough cases, and more than that, because so many are not vaccinating. 

I think a 2 dose series should probably count as vaccinated, with optional boosters for those that want them, at this point. 

Agree.  Let the people who want to get the booster get it.   I will be there as soon as they open.  I was hoping in Feb that as soon as I got my vaccine that would be the slow end of it.  Everyone would get them and we would be moving on.   Well that didn't play out because of people refusing to get the shot.  I want the booster and the kids vaccine.  I am all for mandates on this vaccine too.  IT isn't fair that we are being put back into this because people won't get a vaccine that they can get.  Mandates all the way.  In schools, work, planes, bars, whatever.  

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Just now, vonfirmath said:

You say that now. But 6 months from now I can see the villifying start for those who reject the boosters.  The goalposts keep moving to avoid cultural condemination

I mean, I'll assume people who don't take the boosters are on average making the wrong call, just like I do now with the vaccines. But what am I supposed to do? We're obviously not going to hit herd immunity, anyway, given vaccine resistance and also the fact that immunity wanes too quickly. 

So then it's every man and woman for themselves, and what people do is up to them. That's how I've always treated vaccines, anyway -- I know MANY homeschoolers who don't vaccinate, and while I tend to think that's a bad decision for most of them, I don't mind that much since my kids are vaxxed. I see myself going the same way for COVID. 

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3 minutes ago, vonfirmath said:

You say that now. But 6 months from now I can see the villifying start for those who reject the boosters.  The goalposts keep moving to avoid cultural condemination

Only if we have evidence that not getting a booster is driving up hospitalizations, etc. As of now, that is not what we are seeing. 

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And the goalposts move when the data changes. 

When the vaccine was keeping people from getting infected and transmitting upwards of 90% of the time, yay. Now that we have Delta, and it is much less effective on that variant, ideas change. 

That's common sense. 

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Just now, Not_a_Number said:

I'm sure it will eventually, lol. Why wouldn't it?

Right now, it is unvaccinated people driving up hospitalization and ICU cases. If that changes, recommendations may change. 

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Just now, ktgrok said:

Right now, it is unvaccinated people driving up hospitalization and ICU cases. If that changes, recommendations may change. 

Since immunity vanes, I do think that in a while, "unvaccinated" will mean "someone who didn't get a shot within the last year." Like with flu shots. 

I can't say I'm happy about that, given how much I disliked the shot. But I'm hoping they iron out the dosing/spacing/etc. 

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5 minutes ago, Mrs Tiggywinkle said:

I have a real concern that booster shots are going to be a hard sell. Especially if we are heading back to mandatory masking, I can see a lot of people figuring why bother vaccinating if they have to mask anyway.  

I agree, but I want a booster when it's available anyway. I am not sure if I've ever had the flu, though I think DH had it 18 or so years ago. The shot may not be 100%, but most of the people I know who get the flu don't get the shot. I think at some point we'll have boosters that provide overlapping coverage like the flu shot, and people who get the boosters consistently like they do the flu shot will be unlikely to get Covid just like they are unlikely to get the flu. 

2 minutes ago, mommyoffive said:

Please happen here soon.  I heard something fast on the news last night (don't have an article on it) that said a 3rd shot gives 5 times protection for young people and 11 times for older people.  

That would be awesome! I am curious about the timing--if it's better to wait for waning immunity or just get a third shot as soon as it's available, or if that depends on what Delta and other variants are up to. I can see the recommendations varying by location and on timing of the first two shots. 

6 minutes ago, vonfirmath said:

You say that now. But 6 months from now I can see the villifying start for those who reject the boosters.  The goalposts keep moving to avoid cultural condemination

Well, I think it depends how long it takes to keep mutations from forming so rapidly and how long it takes to become as endemic as the flu. We still can have novel flu viruses with pandemic potential, but who knows how long it will take for coronavirus variants to settle into a seasonal pattern where loss of life and healthcare chaos isn't a possibility.

4 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

I mean, I'll assume people who don't take the boosters are on average making the wrong call, just like I do now with the vaccines. But what am I supposed to do? We're obviously not going to hit herd immunity, anyway, given vaccine resistance and also the fact that immunity wanes too quickly. 

So then it's every man and woman for themselves, and what people do is up to them. That's how I've always treated vaccines, anyway -- I know MANY homeschoolers who don't vaccinate, and while I tend to think that's a bad decision for most of them, I don't mind that much since my kids are vaxxed. I see myself going the same way for COVID. 

I agree, but the variant problem is driving me nuts. I am so annoyed that I did the right thing and am no longer as protected as I was just a few weeks ago because of delta. I am doing my own thing, but I will still be subject to tons of exposure from those who don't care. Ugh.

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Let's look at it another way. A way that doesn't point fingers and make our countrymen the enemy.


These countries that are struggling to get the vaccines to their populations ONCE? They don't have annual flu shots. They won't be able to keep up with every 6 months boosters. If vaccination is the only option, we are not getting out of this.

 

Edited by vonfirmath
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I wonder if we'll ultimately have trivalent and quadrivalent seasonal doses for covid, and if so, if those who get a first time shot, say, a year or two from now will end up getting original strains and new ones together?

 

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4 minutes ago, vonfirmath said:

Let's look at it another way. A way that doesn't point fingers and make our countrymen the enemy.


These countries that are struggling to get the vaccines to their populations ONCE? They don't have annual flu shots. They won't be able to keep up with every 6 months boosters. If vaccination is the only option, we are not getting out of this.

 

Well, we don't know that there will be boosters every 6 months. 

For instance, we vaccinate many things with a series of 3 or 4, but then don't need boosters for years if ever. 

Look at the Hep B vaccine, for instance. 

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10 minutes ago, kbutton said:

I agree, but the variant problem is driving me nuts. I am so annoyed that I did the right thing and am no longer as protected as I was just a few weeks ago because of delta. I am doing my own thing, but I will still be subject to tons of exposure from those who don't care. Ugh.

Same!

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12 minutes ago, vonfirmath said:

Let's look at it another way. A way that doesn't point fingers and make our countrymen the enemy.


These countries that are struggling to get the vaccines to their populations ONCE? They don't have annual flu shots. They won't be able to keep up with every 6 months boosters. If vaccination is the only option, we are not getting out of this.

 

Who are “we”? I agree that some poor countries will have more trouble than the US. But then they have all sorts of endemic diseases we do not.

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1 minute ago, vonfirmath said:

Let's look at it another way. A way that doesn't point fingers and make our countrymen the enemy.


These countries that are struggling to get the vaccines to their populations ONCE? They don't have annual flu shots. They won't be able to keep up with every 6 months boosters. If vaccination is the only option, we are not getting out of this.

If we had better uptake early on in combination with other precautions like masking (truly doing it, not letting it be up for grabs whether people do it), better contact tracing, etc., there would've been fewer opportunities for variants.

It's never been either/or, but I think there was, at one point, an opportunity for entire countries who do have vaccine access to bring it to a slow burn in their own countries, and then those countries aren't exporting it, and any imported strains have less fuel to burn through. 

This might not be a great analogy, but if people had kept numbers down while vaccinating, a country like the US could maybe be seen as having made a firebreak/controlled burn--a gap between us and the consequences, especially serious illness and death. But instead, we have kind of a firebreak, but it's not a great one--vegetation is coming back (vaccinated but Delta or some who had Covid but could get Delta). Parts of the area that was prepared will have a controlled burn, but we still have a really big area where no preparation has been made at all. That area is all ready to go up in flames (lots of death, long term complications), but worse yet, it's making the firebreaks/controlled burn area more susceptible to fires because of where it's placed. 

We didn't have to let so much dry tinder accumulate even if some parts of the world had no choice. Saying we can't control what happens in other countries denies what we can do here. We can determine to not feed the fire. 

I think someone already said this, but it might've been a different thread...if this were ebola on the loose, I think it would scare people straight.

 

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I will definitely get a booster.  But part of my job is talking to vaccine hesitant people, so anything that makes that worse is on high on my radar.  It’s not just “anti-vax” reasons that people give, but concern over side effects and taking time off work.  While they might sound crazy, I’m working with a low socioeconomic population and a day off work is a huge deal.  If you’ve known six people with Covid and all six were not really symptomatic or just had a cold, and the state paid them to stay home and quarantine, vs you’ve known 12 people who got the shot and had bad side effects and had to take off work and didn’t get paid, what are you going to do?  Then you hear that you have to mask anyway, even if vaccinated.  And then you might have to get a booster, and who knows how many boosters? How many more days off work and feeling sick is that?

I hear this over and over.  So I’m all about a booster if needed, but I also talk to people every work day who didn’t get vaccinated for these reasons, and I don’t have the answers.

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12 minutes ago, Mrs Tiggywinkle said:

I will definitely get a booster.  But part of my job is talking to vaccine hesitant people, so anything that makes that worse is on high on my radar.  It’s not just “anti-vax” reasons that people give, but concern over side effects and taking time off work.  While they might sound crazy, I’m working with a low socioeconomic population and a day off work is a huge deal.  If you’ve known six people with Covid and all six were not really symptomatic or just had a cold, and the state paid them to stay home and quarantine, vs you’ve known 12 people who got the shot and had bad side effects and had to take off work and didn’t get paid, what are you going to do?  Then you hear that you have to mask anyway, even if vaccinated.  And then you might have to get a booster, and who knows how many boosters? How many more days off work and feeling sick is that?

I hear this over and over.  So I’m all about a booster if needed, but I also talk to people every work day who didn’t get vaccinated for these reasons, and I don’t have the answers.

The people not vaccinating for these reasons, are actually the most reachable. I think we should do whatever we can to help people in that situation be able to be vaccinated. I’ve thought from the beginning of vaccination that we need to be providing employers and employees with a way to compensate for any missed time due to vaccine side effects. That’s a doable thing to accomplish. For most of the people I’m hearing on the news who have just lost unvaccinated family members to Covid and are pleading with people to get the vaccine though, that hasn’t been the reason. Most of them say they were duped into thinking that Covid was no big deal and the vaccine was dangerous and now they regret it.

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17 minutes ago, Mrs Tiggywinkle said:

I will definitely get a booster.  But part of my job is talking to vaccine hesitant people, so anything that makes that worse is on high on my radar.  It’s not just “anti-vax” reasons that people give, but concern over side effects and taking time off work.  While they might sound crazy, I’m working with a low socioeconomic population and a day off work is a huge deal.  If you’ve known six people with Covid and all six were not really symptomatic or just had a cold, and the state paid them to stay home and quarantine, vs you’ve known 12 people who got the shot and had bad side effects and had to take off work and didn’t get paid, what are you going to do?  Then you hear that you have to mask anyway, even if vaccinated.  And then you might have to get a booster, and who knows how many boosters? How many more days off work and feeling sick is that?

I hear this over and over.  So I’m all about a booster if needed, but I also talk to people every work day who didn’t get vaccinated for these reasons, and I don’t have the answers.

I’m impressed people are managing to know no one who had serious COVID. I almost wonder if this is due to people’s decisions not to talk about it. I mean, we’re in the protected class who could huddle at home and distance, and we STILL know enough scary stories to worry.

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2 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

I’m impressed people are managing to know no one who had serious COVID. I almost wonder if this is due to people’s decisions not to talk about it. I mean, we’re in the protected class who could huddle at home and distance, and we STILL know enough scary stories to worry.

DH's stepdad has long covid but refuses to admit it.  He can't be on his feet more than half an hour and has blood clots all over his lungs.  He presents it as just getting older, doctors aren't sure, etc.  Dh's aunt died of pneumonia that was secondary to covid.  A certain segment of the family says she died of pneumonia.  Full stop.

I think everyone knows someone who has had problems from it, but they might not know that they know someone with problems from it.

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6 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

I’m impressed people are managing to know no one who had serious COVID. I almost wonder if this is due to people’s decisions not to talk about it. I mean, we’re in the protected class who could huddle at home and distance, and we STILL know enough scary stories to worry.

We had few deaths locally and never really reached ICU capacity due to Covid(we have recently because of other things though).  Most people here don’t know anyone who had a serious case of Covid.  There is the vaccine hesitant who don’t think Covid is a big deal or simply don’t vaccinate, but I don’t think they are going to change their mind at this point.

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Just now, Mrs Tiggywinkle said:

We had few deaths locally and never really reached ICU capacity due to Covid(we have recently because of other things though).  Most people here don’t know anyone who had a serious case of Covid.  There is the vaccine hesitant who don’t think Covid is a big deal or simply don’t vaccinate, but I don’t think they are going to change their mind at this point.

It's too bad that this run of luck could very well end with Delta 😕 . I hope it doesn't. 

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3 minutes ago, Syllieann said:

DH's stepdad has long covid but refuses to admit it.  He can't be on his feet more than half an hour and has blood clots all over his lungs.  He presents it as just getting older, doctors aren't sure, etc.  Dh's aunt died of pneumonia that was secondary to covid.  A certain segment of the family says she died of pneumonia.  Full stop.

I think everyone knows someone who has had problems from it, but they might not know that they know someone with problems from it.

Thanks for confirming. I've been wondering if that's going on.

I know that even in our protected family, DH's great-uncle died, and DH has coworkers he doesn't know closely who have long COVID. I also definitely know people who had mild cases: one toddler, our babysitter, the great-uncle's wife, a dad in a local homeschooling family... obviously, both possibilities are around. But given our personal sample, I'd be surprised if anyone living in an area where COVID has at any point been rampant doesn't know someone who's had a bad case. 

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5 minutes ago, Mrs Tiggywinkle said:

Most people here don’t know anyone who had a serious case of Covid.

I'm still stuck on the fact that even if people don't know someone personally who did, can't they look at the numbers in the US and across the world, and come to the conclusion that it clearly is a very big deal for a very large number of people, and that it just appears they have been lucky so far to not know someone? Why does it have to be someone they know personally?

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Just now, KSera said:

I'm still stuck on the fact that even if people don't know someone personally who did, can't they look at the numbers in the US and across the world, and come to the conclusion that it clearly is a very big deal for a very large number of people, and that it just appears they have been lucky so far to not know someone? Why does it have to be someone they know personally?

I mean, I kind of get this, psychologically. I was totally feeling a completely unreasonable sense of security back when COVID was serious in Italy but not serious here. I'm not really sure why, to be honest -- it just somehow didn't affect my life enough for me to think about it. 

Now, it's true that it's been 1.5 years since then and people ought to know better 😛 . But I bet the psychology is similar. 

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Posted (edited)
20 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

 I mean, we’re in the protected class who could huddle at home and distance, and we STILL know enough scary stories to worry.

Same.  Back in March 2020 my MIL sent me some thing from an epidemiologist who said "you will know people who die from this," and I thought it was a ridiculous exaggeration.  Nope.  I think of that email often.

 

Edited by JennyD
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People are dressing in disguise for COVID-19 vaccines, Missouri doctor says (msn.com)

 

The effectiveness of Pfizer’s COVID-19 shot can drop to 83.7% within four to six months after getting the second dose of its vaccine. This is the latest indication that vaccine-induced immunity to the virus can wane and some kind of boost may be necessary in the future.

New research published Wednesday as a preprint indicates that the Pfizer Inc. PFE, -0.62% shot provides 96.2% protection for the first two months, 90.1% effectiveness between the second and fourth months, and between 83.7% of protection for the fourth, fifth, and six months. 

“We will need a booster eight to 12 months from the second dose,” Pfizer CEO Albert Bourla said Wednesday, according to a FactSet transcript of the company’s second-quarter earnings call. 

 

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1 hour ago, KSera said:

I'm still stuck on the fact that even if people don't know someone personally who did, can't they look at the numbers in the US and across the world, and come to the conclusion that it clearly is a very big deal for a very large number of people, and that it just appears they have been lucky so far to not know someone? Why does it have to be someone they know personally?

A lot of people don’t watch the news or read newspapers or news articles online. They are not scientifically literate and don’t pay a lot of attention to nationwide statistics.  This is a large part of the population that I work with through the county health department. We are talking about a county where the median individual income is $28,000 a year and only 25% have a bachelor’s degree or higher according the US Census bureau.  They know their neighbors, coworkers and maybe church members.   There’s many people who are minorities or of ethnicities that generally do not trust the government and are suspicious of some white woman encouraging them to get vaccinated.

Getting people vaccinated is an uphill battle but we’re almost at 50 percent of eligible adults. 

Edited by Mrs Tiggywinkle
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1 minute ago, Mrs Tiggywinkle said:

A lot of people don’t watch the news or read newspapers or news articles online. They are not scientifically literate and don’t pay a lot of attention to nationwide statistics.  This is a large part of the population that I work with through the county health department. We are talking about a county where the median individual income is $28,000 a year and only 25% have a bachelor’s degree or higher according the US Census bureau.  They know their neighbors, coworkers and maybe church members.   Getting people vaccinated is an uphill battle but we’re almost at 50 percent of eligible adults. 

Yup. 

When my neighbor got it I brought soup and mentioned how contagious Delta was. He'd never heard of it. This was only a few weeks ago - Delta was all over the news everywhere. but he gets his news from facebook memes and sketchy youtube videos. 

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