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The Vaccine Thread


JennyD

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2 hours ago, Syllieann said:

I saw this interesting article on "gargling science" yesterday.  Some of you may be interested in trying it or recommending it to others if we are looking at another school year without vaccines for under 12s.  I'm going to try it for my 8 and 10 yos.

https://www.medpagetoday.com/opinion/second-opinions/93731

What are you supposed to use to gargle?  The article says dilute PVI.  What is that? And what is it in?

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6 hours ago, FuzzyCatz said:

That's what I wonder.  As viruses become endemic I feel like we're less likely to have strong reactions to them (and/or their vaccines) and they will become more minor annoyances.  Obviously if you have immune system problems all bets are off.  But like very minor viruses can already be really rough the elderly or cancer patients doing strong chemo, etc.  

I'm watching the delta data closely and I'm not super alarmed by UK and Israel numbers at this time.  Our own local numbers are still better than last summer so as a vaccinated person I'm still feeling ok about our outdoor fun summer with a fully vaccinated house hold.  

I just got word my college student was potentially exposed on campus last week(he was there for a rehearsal).  The person was vaccinated and asymptomatic but tested positive.  I am assuming they had to test for another reason (work, campus requirements, travel, etc).  Given kid is fully vaxxed and the details he gave, it seems unlikely he was really directly exposed.  And given this was someone vaccinated and asymptomatic, their viral levels are probably low.  We are having him tested and having him hide in his room for a few days with his air purifier and his technology!.  If he tests negative, stays asymptomatic and we don't hear about any other spread from that event we'll release him later in the week.  GAH!  This is our first potential exposure and given conditions probably not a problem but still an annoyance.  My younger teen is doing some summer stuff that would be super devastating for her to need to drop the next 2-3 weeks.  They have truly brought joy back to the house and are safely done with vaccinated crews so they need to happen.  

I wish this was definitely likely to be true but it seems like for things like polio, smallpox etc this never really happened historically they just remained the horrible disease they’d started out as.  Maybe we will learn to live with them better by improving ventilation etc though.

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14 minutes ago, Syllieann said:

Thanks.  I wonder if I should get the nasal spray too?  This is what the dentists were using for awhile right?

 

the only one I find on Amazon says for kids 12 and up and adults.  Do you know of any kid good for kids under 12?

Edited by mommyoffive
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2 minutes ago, mommyoffive said:

Thanks.  I wonder if I should get the nasal spray too?  This is what the dentists were using for awhile right?

Our dentist has been having everyone rinse with Listerine Total Care Zero Alcohol. I remember because it's what I use at home.

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12 minutes ago, Ausmumof3 said:

I wish this was definitely likely to be true but it seems like for things like polio, smallpox etc this never really happened historically they just remained the horrible disease they’d started out as.  Maybe we will learn to live with them better by improving ventilation etc though.

We read about polio in DD9's virus book... apparently, people used to get it as babies, when it didn't have crippling effects. Then we cleaned the water, and people stopped getting it as babies, and it was much worse:

https://uh.edu/engines/epi1527.htm

There are all sorts of weird unpredictable stuff with diseases, sigh. And sometimes, things become "endemic but harmless" only after having killed off quite a lot of people. So it's not all so predictable... 

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11 minutes ago, Ausmumof3 said:

I wish this was definitely likely to be true but it seems like for things like polio, smallpox etc this never really happened historically they just remained the horrible disease they’d started out as.  Maybe we will learn to live with them better by improving ventilation etc though.

We'll see.  I have read a couple articles by scientists who speculated they may be similar to other coronaviruses that now cause some common colds where the immune response will continue building with exposure.  Those viruses were novel once too and may have been rough on immune systems early on.  Unfortunately, I don't have time to dig back right now.  Smallpox and polio immunity seems to work a little differently.  I think there is a lot we don't know yet about the immune system!  

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8 minutes ago, FuzzyCatz said:

We'll see.  I have read a couple articles by scientists who speculated they may be similar to other coronaviruses that now cause some common colds where the immune response will continue building with exposure.  Those viruses were novel once too and may have been rough on immune systems early on.  Unfortunately, I don't have time to dig back right now.  Smallpox and polio immunity seems to work a little differently.  I think there is a lot we don't know yet about the immune system!  

Yeah I have seen similar speculation but not a lot of proof.  The chicken coronavirus doesn’t seem to work like that it still knocks them out but chickens don’t have very good immune systems either and often have poor living conditions (and the chicken coronavirus is problematic from a vaccination perspective too because of the mutation rate).

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10 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

We read about polio in DD9's virus book... apparently, people used to get it as babies, when it didn't have crippling effects. Then we cleaned the water, and people stopped getting it as babies, and it was much worse:

https://uh.edu/engines/epi1527.htm

There are all sorts of weird unpredictable stuff with diseases, sigh. And sometimes, things become "endemic but harmless" only after having killed off quite a lot of people. So it's not all so predictable... 

wow fascinating!  I didn’t know that.  External/lifestyle factors have a pretty fascinating interaction with burden of disease hey.  Or at least fascinating when you’re reading about it not living it 😕

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24 minutes ago, mommyoffive said:

Thanks.  I wonder if I should get the nasal spray too?  This is what the dentists were using for awhile right?

 

the only one I find on Amazon says for kids 12 and up and adults.  Do you know of any kid good for kids under 12?

I think I'm just going to ask our ped if the 0.5% is ok.  I'm pretty confident my kids can spit it all out, but things might be iffy with a 5 or 6 year old.  Otherwise, we will probably do the listerine.  I'm not going to do the nasal spray because I think they will resist and kids have very small sinuses compared to adults.

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11 minutes ago, FuzzyCatz said:

We'll see.  I have read a couple articles by scientists who speculated they may be similar to other coronaviruses that now cause some common colds where the immune response will continue building with exposure.  Those viruses were novel once too and may have been rough on immune systems early on.  Unfortunately, I don't have time to dig back right now.  Smallpox and polio immunity seems to work a little differently.  I think there is a lot we don't know yet about the immune system!  

Fingers crossed, I guess. On the other hand, I feel a bit worried about generalizing. 

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1 minute ago, Ausmumof3 said:

wow fascinating!  I didn’t know that.  External/lifestyle factors have a pretty fascinating interaction with burden of disease hey.  Or at least fascinating when you’re reading about it not living it 😕

I do prefer it as history instead of my life, lol. 

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7 hours ago, Syllieann said:

I saw this interesting article on "gargling science" yesterday.  Some of you may be interested in trying it or recommending it to others if we are looking at another school year without vaccines for under 12s.  I'm going to try it for my 8 and 10 yos.

https://www.medpagetoday.com/opinion/second-opinions/93731

Yep. My dad worked in the pharmaceutical industry and after researching antibiotics, made all of us kids gargle with water, sometimes salt water, after brushing our teeth. (He was not anti-antibiotic but knew they should be used judiciously even back in the 1960s.)

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3 hours ago, KSera said:

As far as I’m seeing just from the few studies I’ve read, water works just as well as using PVI: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/16242593/

The article mentions that and actually links to this study as the starting point for the new info they've gotten since covid started.  Then it goes on and includes this 2021 https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamaotolaryngology/fullarticle/2775984

as support for pvi over some of the other options.  It does cause some issues with TSH if using frequently without an off time, which is probably why they are suggesting dilute pvi.

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5 hours ago, Not_a_Number said:

We read about polio in DD9's virus book... apparently, people used to get it as babies, when it didn't have crippling effects. Then we cleaned the water, and people stopped getting it as babies, and it was much worse:

https://uh.edu/engines/epi1527.htm

I wonder though how many of the enormous number of small children who 'just died' before clean water were killed by polio.  There would not have been individual analyses.

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6 hours ago, Laura Corin said:

I wonder though how many of the enormous number of small children who 'just died' before clean water were killed by polio.  There would not have been individual analyses.

I would guess they have some evidence this wasn’t common. 

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, mommyoffive said:

There is hardly any info in that link.  Did they do trials on kids there already?  Do they not do trials??

I haven't seen any other info elsewhere either -- I saw one Hebrew-language report but it said essentially the same thing.

AFAIK, the Israeli Ministry of Health generally follows the recommendations of the US FDA  when authorizing pharmaceuticals, although of course they aren't legally required to do so under domestic statute.  I'm quite sure that they haven't been running separate trials for the pediatric Pfizer vaccine.  My guess is that the MOH simply made its own cost-benefit analysis for this population based on the data they -- and we -- already have available.  

Israel actually did the same thing with ages 12-15 -- immunized a couple of hundred medically fragile teens before the vaccine was approved for that age group in the U. I don't remember if they did that before or after Pfizer officially released its results.

One interesting question is what dose these children will be receiving.  If I had to guess, I'd bet that they will be using the stepped-down doses that Pfizer decided on in phase 1 of the pediatric trials, but who knows.

 

Edited by JennyD
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3 minutes ago, JennyD said:

I haven't seen any other info elsewhere either -- I saw one Hebrew-language report but it said essentially the same thing.

AFAIK, the Israeli Ministry of Health generally follows the recommendations of the US FDA  when authorizing pharmaceuticals, although of course they aren't legally required to do so under domestic statute.  I'm quite sure that they haven't been running separate trials for the pediatric Pfizer vaccine.  My guess is that the MOH simply made its own cost-benefit analysis for this population based on the data they -- and we -- already have available.  

Israel actually did the same thing with ages 12-15 -- immunized a couple of hundred medically fragile teens before the US FDA approved it.  I don't remember if they did that before or after Pfizer officially submitted its results.

One interesting question is what dose these children will be receiving.  If I had to guess, I'd bet that they will be using the stepped-down doses that Pfizer decided on in phase 1 of the pediatric trials, but who knows.

 

I wonder if they got preliminary Pfizer data? They had a very close deal with Pfizer, right?

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Just now, Not_a_Number said:

I wonder if they got preliminary Pfizer data? They had a very close deal with Pfizer, right?

Yeah, there was some sort of deal that let them buy a whole bunch of doses earlier in exchange for the loads of data that the 4 big HMOs collect on the population.  Also they paid through the nose, much more than Europe or the US as I recall.

I doubt that they're getting data before the rest of the world, though.    I think the Israeli ministry of health is just less risk-averse than the FDA.

 

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15 minutes ago, JennyD said:

I haven't seen any other info elsewhere either -- I saw one Hebrew-language report but it said essentially the same thing.

AFAIK, the Israeli Ministry of Health generally follows the recommendations of the US FDA  when authorizing pharmaceuticals, although of course they aren't legally required to do so under domestic statute.  I'm quite sure that they haven't been running separate trials for the pediatric Pfizer vaccine.  My guess is that the MOH simply made its own cost-benefit analysis for this population based on the data they -- and we -- already have available.  

Israel actually did the same thing with ages 12-15 -- immunized a couple of hundred medically fragile teens before the vaccine was approved for that age group in the U. I don't remember if they did that before or after Pfizer officially released its results.

One interesting question is what dose these children will be receiving.  If I had to guess, I'd bet that they will be using the stepped-down doses that Pfizer decided on in phase 1 of the pediatric trials, but who knows.

 

I always get excited and hope that it means something good for us here.  That things are moving faster or something like that.

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8 minutes ago, JennyD said:

Yeah, there was some sort of deal that let them buy a whole bunch of doses earlier in exchange for the loads of data that the 4 big HMOs collect on the population.  Also they paid through the nose, much more than Europe or the US as I recall.

I doubt that they're getting data before the rest of the world, though.    I think the Israeli ministry of health is just less risk-averse than the FDA.

 

I dunno. If they are still working together closely… 

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Posted (edited)
2 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

I dunno. If they are still working together closely… 

Maybe.  I do strongly suspect that if the promised September-ish results from Pfizer are good Israel will just go ahead and approve it for kids; they won't wait around for the FDA.  

Edited by JennyD
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32 minutes ago, JennyD said:

One interesting question is what dose these children will be receiving.  If I had to guess, I'd bet that they will be using the stepped-down doses that Pfizer decided on in phase 1 of the pediatric trials, but who knows.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/israel-to-start-vaccinating-kids-aged-5-11-who-have-severe-background-illnesses/

This says children will get 1/3 of the adult dose

Edited by Corraleno
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2 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

Is that what Pfizer is testing as well?

Yes, I believe they're testing 1/3 adult dose in 5-11 and then 1/10 in younger groups (not sure how far down in age).

 

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24 minutes ago, JennyD said:

Oh so I was wrong.  I know I read about a 1/10 dose being tested (e.g., here) but it looks as though that is inaccurate reporting?

 

I'm not sure where they would have gotten the 1/10th figure from. The trial protocol says they are testing 10/20/30 µg in all three age groups, down to 6 months.

Moderna is using much higher doses — they're testing 50/100 µg in ages 2-11 and 25/50/100 µg in 6 months to <2. (Those doses seem crazy high to me for babies and toddlers considering the extent of side effects in adults.)

ETA: I wonder if the person who wrote that article confused the adult doses of Pfizer & Moderna? Because 10 µg is 1/10th of the Moderna dose, but Moderna isn't testing that dose in any age.

Edited by Corraleno
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1 hour ago, JennyD said:

Yeah, there was some sort of deal that let them buy a whole bunch of doses earlier in exchange for the loads of data that the 4 big HMOs collect on the population.  Also they paid through the nose, much more than Europe or the US as I recall.

I doubt that they're getting data before the rest of the world, though.    I think the Israeli ministry of health is just less risk-averse than the FDA.

 

I think they are the data. That was the deal. They get vaccine early and in exchange they serve in a way as a test case. 
I am amazed how they sold this to their population. I can tell people in my ancestral country would have objected being what they would see as “test monkeys.” 

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4 minutes ago, Corraleno said:

I'm not sure where they would have gotten the 1/10th figure from. The trial protocol says they are testing 10/20/30 µg in all three age groups, down to 6 months.

Moderna is using much higher doses — they're testing 50/100 µg in ages 2-11 and 25/50/100 µg in 6 months to <2. (Those doses seem crazy high to me for babies and toddlers considering the extent of side effects in adults.)

ETA: I wonder if the person who wrote that article confused the adult doses of Pfizer & Moderna? Because 10 µg is 1/10th of the Moderna dose, but Moderna isn't testing that dose in any age.

I know I've seen the 1/10 figure in other articles as well -- I bet you're right that someone initially confused the Moderna/Pfizer doses and then it just gets picked up by other outlets.

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2 minutes ago, Roadrunner said:

I think they are the data. That was the deal. They get vaccine early and in exchange they serve in a way as a test case. 
I am amazed how they sold this to their population. I can tell people in my ancestral country would have objected being what they would see as “test monkeys.” 

In general, Israelis tend to be pretty enthusiastic about medical interventions and the culture puts a high value on improvisation, especially in emergencies.  

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The Pfizer dose that made it to phase 2/3 for the 5-11 years is the 10 micrograms.  The vaccine dosage for moderna is higher, but I'm not sure that corresponds to more mrna strands because they use different ingredients to, um, encapsulate it, I guess you could say.  It might be that there is more non-mrna material per microliter of moderna.  Or it could be that there really is more mrna; I just don't think we can say that is definitely the case based solely on volume.

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34 minutes ago, Syllieann said:

The Pfizer dose that made it to phase 2/3 for the 5-11 years is the 10 micrograms.  The vaccine dosage for moderna is higher, but I'm not sure that corresponds to more mrna strands because they use different ingredients to, um, encapsulate it, I guess you could say.  It might be that there is more non-mrna material per microliter of moderna.  Or it could be that there really is more mrna; I just don't think we can say that is definitely the case based solely on volume.

No, the figures of 30 & 100 μg represent the actual amount of mRNA, it's not the total volume of the vaccine dose. E.g. this is the description of Moderna from the European Medicines Agency:

"The finished product (also referred to in this report as mRNA-1273) is presented as a dispersion for injection containing 100 μg/0.5 mL dose of single-stranded, 5’ capped mRNA encoding full length SARS-CoV-2 Spike (S) protein as the active substance (referred to by the applicant as CX-024414), which is embedded in lipid nanoparticles (LNPs)."

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Vaccine passports for events to encourage vaccination among the young:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/jul/29/vaccine-passport-plan-intended-to-coax-young-to-have-jabs-says-raab

First jabs among the young in England (who became eligible later and often haven't progressed to second) is only around 60% I think, whereas for older adults full vaccination is close to 100%.

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5 minutes ago, JennyD said:

A relative in Israel texted me that he just reserved his third Pfizer shot for next week.  Apparently boosters were just approved for 60+.

 

Ooh. I hope this happens here soon. I’m getting worried about my in-laws.

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6 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

I’d like a booster myself, lol.

How are you guys doing? How’s your DS?

So far so good. He's annoyed because his fancy ghost pepper jerky he bought doesn't taste like it should - not spicy enough. That's the biggest complaint, lol. 

No fever, spO2 perfect, minor congestion that is normal for him. 

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I have a real concern that booster shots are going to be a hard sell. Especially if we are heading back to mandatory masking, I can see a lot of people figuring why bother vaccinating if they have to mask anyway.  Our vax rates hyper locally are about 30% of eligible adults where I live, with 50% of eligible adults where I work.  The on the fence people only vaxxed so they’d get away from wearing masks.  
 

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Just now, Mrs Tiggywinkle said:

I have a real concern that booster shots are going to be a hard sell. Especially if we are heading back to mandatory masking, I can see a lot of people figuring why bother vaccinating if they have to mask anyway.  Our vax rates hyper locally are about 30% of eligible adults where I live, with 50% of eligible adults where I work.  The on the fence people only vaxxed so they’d get away from wearing masks.  
 

Well, we are masking because without boosters we are having too many breakthrough cases, and more than that, because so many are not vaccinating. 

I think a 2 dose series should probably count as vaccinated, with optional boosters for those that want them, at this point. 

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18 minutes ago, JennyD said:

A relative in Israel texted me that he just reserved his third Pfizer shot for next week.  Apparently boosters were just approved for 60+.

 

Please happen here soon.  I heard something fast on the news last night (don't have an article on it) that said a 3rd shot gives 5 times protection for young people and 11 times for older people.  

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5 minutes ago, Mrs Tiggywinkle said:

I have a real concern that booster shots are going to be a hard sell. Especially if we are heading back to mandatory masking, I can see a lot of people figuring why bother vaccinating if they have to mask anyway.  Our vax rates hyper locally are about 30% of eligible adults where I live, with 50% of eligible adults where I work.  The on the fence people only vaxxed so they’d get away from wearing masks.  
 

Honestly, at this point I don’t care what other people do. I had worse side effects with the vaccine than most of this forum, and I still want a booster. Nothing I’ve read makes me want to get COVID unprotected. 

I hope people take the boosters. But if they don’t, that’s on them. 

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