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The Vaccine Thread


JennyD

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3 hours ago, Not_a_Number said:

I’ve actually thought about this a lot! You choose to get the vaccine but not COVID, and that feels really different.

I’ve struggled with that as regards some of the childhood vaccines for rare illnesses. I’ve done it differently at different times for different kids, but it does suck when your baby has a bad reaction to a vaccine for an illness you weren’t really concerned they were going to catch anyway. It feels 100% different with Covid to me, because at this point, the choices are to get the vaccine or get Covid. Unless someone is going to lock themselves down to avoid it, or has already had Covid, choosing not to get the vaccine is to choose to almost certainly get Covid instead at this point.  And with the way Delta is going, likely in the next few months. (I am increasingly worried about a new variant evolving that sets us back to the beginning based on this amount of transmission being allowed to continue. Every reproduction cycle increases that risk.)

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4 hours ago, KSera said:

I’ve struggled with that as regards some of the childhood vaccines for rare illnesses. I’ve done it differently at different times for different kids, but it does suck when your baby has a bad reaction to a vaccine for an illness you weren’t really concerned they were going to catch anyway. It feels 100% different with Covid to me, because at this point, the choices are to get the vaccine or get Covid. Unless someone is going to lock themselves down to avoid it, or has already had Covid, choosing not to get the vaccine is to choose to almost certainly get Covid instead at this point.  And with the way Delta is going, likely in the next few months. (I am increasingly worried about a new variant evolving that sets us back to the beginning based on this amount of transmission being allowed to continue. Every reproduction cycle increases that risk.)

I don't understand this line of thinking. I'm careful and use common sense. I wear an N95 mask (have been since the first whiff of Covid) and have lived a completely normal life with the exception of not eating indoors. I guess one might say I've been lucky? But I feel very comfortable. I've been working at my office, eating and socializing outside, shopping, attended an outdoor wedding, etc. How am I sure to get Covid? 

ETA: I suppose it's possible I might have had it, though no idea how, and if I did I was asymptomatic. But it's possible. 

Edited by whitestavern
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12 minutes ago, whitestavern said:

I don't understand this line of thinking. I'm careful and use common sense. I wear an N95 mask (have been since the first whiff of Covid) and have lived a completely normal life with the exception of not eating indoors. I guess one might say I've been lucky? But I feel very comfortable. I've been working at my office, eating and socializing outside, shopping, attended an outdoor wedding, etc. How am I sure to get Covid? 

ETA: I suppose it's possible I might have had it, though no idea how, and if I did I was asymptomatic. But it's possible. 

If you wear a well-fitted N-95 when you're indoors in public, then you are likely an exception. Most people aren't wearing masks at all, much less N-95s, and the N-95s I do see are so often not fitting well enough to be providing N95 level protection. Still, you will be far better protected than the vast majority of vaccinated people. Delta is looking to be far more contagious than previous variants, with much higher attack rates. Not having caught the original variant doesn't mean the same measures will hold up to Delta. That's why scientists are saying virtually everyone not protected from it by vaccine or previous illness will get it (I'm not the one who came up with that, I'm sharing the consensus of everything else I've read).

 

ETA: If everyone not vaccinated were using the same precautions you report, then this would be a totally different thing. That would be much more defensible.

Edited by KSera
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11 minutes ago, whitestavern said:

I don't understand this line of thinking. I'm careful and use common sense. I wear an N95 mask (have been since the first whiff of Covid) and have lived a completely normal life with the exception of not eating indoors. I guess one might say I've been lucky? But I feel very comfortable. I've been working at my office, eating and socializing outside, shopping, attended an outdoor wedding, etc. How am I sure to get Covid? 

ETA: I suppose it's possible I might have had it, though no idea how, and if I did I was asymptomatic. But it's possible. 

That might be a strategy that works for you, but given that N95's have been in short supply for much of the pandemic, it's not one that works for the country as a whole.  Vaccination is.  

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35 minutes ago, whitestavern said:

I don't understand this line of thinking. I'm careful and use common sense. I wear an N95 mask (have been since the first whiff of Covid) and have lived a completely normal life with the exception of not eating indoors. I guess one might say I've been lucky? But I feel very comfortable. I've been working at my office, eating and socializing outside, shopping, attended an outdoor wedding, etc. How am I sure to get Covid? 

ETA: I suppose it's possible I might have had it, though no idea how, and if I did I was asymptomatic. But it's possible. 

Delta is much more contagious - what was previously unlikely to be long enough contact now is. And at some point, most people will not want to wear an N95 mask for all daily activities. Lord know I have no desire to do so in 90 degree heat with humidity so high the ground is steaming, you know? 

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1 hour ago, KSera said:

If you wear a well-fitted N-95 when you're indoors in public, then you are likely an exception. Most people aren't wearing masks at all, much less N-95s, and the N-95s I do see are so often not fitting well enough to be providing N95 level protection. Still, you will be far better protected than the vast majority of vaccinated people. Delta is looking to be far more contagious than previous variants, with much higher attack rates. Not having caught the original variant doesn't mean the same measures will hold up to Delta. That's why scientists are saying virtually everyone not protected from it by vaccine or previous illness will get it (I'm not the one who came up with that, I'm sharing the consensus of everything else I've read).

 

ETA: If everyone not vaccinated were using the same precautions you report, then this would be a totally different thing. That would be much more defensible.

Oh gosh, I hadn't heard that.    Gosh I wish I could get my younger 3 vaccinated now.  That kind of makes we want to lock down now.

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23 minutes ago, mommyoffive said:

Oh gosh, I hadn't heard that.    Gosh I wish I could get my younger 3 vaccinated now.  That kind of makes we want to lock down now.

I’m keeping mine out of public places and only visiting with other fully vaccinated families right now. I know it’s possible they could get it anyway with Delta so contagious, but at least I expect it would likely be okay if they do. Though, I know of several families now where the unvaccinated kid caught it first and then spread to the vaccinated family members. So far none of them with bad complications, though. Still, we will keep doing the best we can. Not locking down, but not taking them indoors in public, and only playing in person with their best friends, who come from fully vaccinated families who are similarly careful. (They only visited their friends outdoors before the vaccine was available.)

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12 minutes ago, KSera said:

I’m keeping mine out of public places and only visiting with other fully vaccinated families right now. I know it’s possible they could get it anyway with Delta so contagious, but at least I expect it would likely be okay if they do. Though, I know of several families now where the unvaccinated kid caught it first and then spread to the vaccinated family members. So far none of them with bad complications, though. Still, we will keep doing the best we can. Not locking down, but not taking them indoors in public, and only playing in person with their best friends, who come from fully vaccinated families who are similarly careful. (They only visited their friends outdoors before the vaccine was available.)

Sigh.  I know I should be doing that.  We lived like that until a week ago.  March 2020-May 2021 we didn't do anything in-person.  Dh went to work maybe 5 times.  2 of my kids did 2 weeks of in-person ballet to film two pieces.  Now playdates or anything.  We only saw family 2 times.     My kids were Ok.  Just ok.  They missed friends who they lost contact with after awhile.  We did things to try and make the best of it.  I feel like I screwed this all up.  We should have just been more open all last year like everyone was in are area.  And could have locked up now.

I was going to have them in tons of in-person things this summer.  But then I got spooked and just couldn't decide what was ok to do.  I am letting them play with the neighbor kids at the park. I am letting them do indoor ballet and gymnastics.  Risks yes.  But man they are just so happy doing it.  I want them to have some normal childhood experiences.  My ones at gymnastics have wanted to do it forever and are just so happy to have the chance to learn that right now.  We made the decision to do it before we saw the spike.  Our state was having lowish cases for a bit.  I know gymnastics isn't that important in a pandemic or playing at the park.  I know I should be not doing that right now.  But man did that affect me.  Not doing anything or seeing people really put into a bad mental health spot.  I have noticed the ways it has affected my kids too, more than just being sad about not seeing friends.   I need to make sure they are ok going forward in life.  So we are taking some risks.  Everyone is masked at gymnastics and ballet.   The playgrounds, no.  We are catching up on all medical apts that we didn't do since March 2020.  I am letting them go to some public places masked that are indoors.  It just feels like they sometimes need to do that to help them do normal things.  We went to the library one time for 20 mins or less early in the morning right after opening.  We have gone to the store but only the outdoor garden center.  I want them to not freak out in public situations since they haven't been in them in so long.  I did the two times that I was out in a public building.  Once to vote and to get vaccinated.   I do wish we had a pod of families for them to get together with that we new were being careful.  But we don't.  

They could easily get covid from the risks we are taking.  Or dh could bring it home from traveling that his work is now making him do.  

Hoping we get lucky for a little bit and cases drop and it was just a 4th of July increase.  

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8 minutes ago, mommyoffive said:

Sigh.  I know I should be doing that

I was just sharing what we are doing. I’m not saying that’s what everyone else should be doing. People like you, getting vaccinated and taking the precautions you’re taking aren’t the problem. It sounds like you’re being totally reasonable.

Edited by KSera
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I do think there are some people who are a lot less likely to get Covid than others.  I wish we knew more about this phenomenon.  It could help target many policies.

I used to think my kids and I were sure to get Covid sooner or later, but we did antibody tests and none of us had any.  I also know people who lived in the same house with people who had Covid, and they don't have antibodies.  (And that has happened to others on this board also.)  We just don't know exactly why.

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45 minutes ago, SKL said:

I do think there are some people who are a lot less likely to get Covid than others.  I wish we knew more about this phenomenon.  It could help target many policies.

I used to think my kids and I were sure to get Covid sooner or later, but we did antibody tests and none of us had any.  I also know people who lived in the same house with people who had Covid, and they don't have antibodies.  (And that has happened to others on this board also.)  We just don't know exactly why.

I agree. I wish there was more information put out. I read so much from the UK and Singapore and Israel and feel like our country isn't putting anything out. I think it's because they're afraid if they do, the people that feel like they're "safer" won't get the vaccine. But I think it's hurting not helping with the vaccine reluctance. 

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17 minutes ago, whitestavern said:

I agree. I wish there was more information put out. I read so much from the UK and Singapore and Israel and feel like our country isn't putting anything out. I think it's because they're afraid if they do, the people that feel like they're "safer" won't get the vaccine. But I think it's hurting not helping with the vaccine reluctance. 

US messaging has been, say whatever we think will make more people go get the vaccine. Doesn’t matter if it’s only partly true, the masses can’t be trusted with information and should only be told things that will make them act in the “appropriate” way.

Nope, I don’t like the way the US handles messaging.

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1 hour ago, whitestavern said:

I agree. I wish there was more information put out. I read so much from the UK and Singapore and Israel and feel like our country isn't putting anything out. I think it's because they're afraid if they do, the people that feel like they're "safer" won't get the vaccine. But I think it's hurting not helping with the vaccine reluctance. 

I think there are many political issues standing in the way of both collecting and releasing information. It seems ridiculous to me that an illness can have been so politicized. 

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7 hours ago, SKL said:

I do think there are some people who are a lot less likely to get Covid than others.  I wish we knew more about this phenomenon.  It could help target many policies.

I used to think my kids and I were sure to get Covid sooner or later, but we did antibody tests and none of us had any.  I also know people who lived in the same house with people who had Covid, and they don't have antibodies.  (And that has happened to others on this board also.)  We just don't know exactly why.

There is some very preliminary research on genetic differences that lead to people getting sicker but I don't know about natural pre-contact immunity.

5 hours ago, TCB said:

I think there are many political issues standing in the way of both collecting and releasing information. It seems ridiculous to me that an illness can have been so politicized. 

It's interesting the way that different aspects are politicised in different countries.  In the UK all the political parties have been supportive of vaccination, and anti-vaxx feelings are not that common.  Masks have also not been too political.

The rows have been about how and when to lock down, and whether those in power were following the rules they themselves promoted. 

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1 hour ago, mommyoffive said:

The answer to the headline is right there in the article:

Quote

children were not a priority.

Also, this sounds like utter nonsense to me:

Quote

"Somebody may ask, 'Gee, why don't you do them simultaneously?' Well, there's not that bandwidth. You just can't do too many trials simultaneously."

 

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18 hours ago, SKL said:

I do think there are some people who are a lot less likely to get Covid than others.  I wish we knew more about this phenomenon.  It could help target many policies.

I used to think my kids and I were sure to get Covid sooner or later, but we did antibody tests and none of us had any.  I also know people who lived in the same house with people who had Covid, and they don't have antibodies.  (And that has happened to others on this board also.)  We just don't know exactly why.

Yeah, although with new variants, delta especially, that seems less common. My neighbor did not get covid when his wife had it. They were sort of separated, so not living together but hung out together, cuddled, kissed, and watched movies together on the couch, per him. He did not get it. 

Months later, he caught Covid, likely from work. Delta has hit our state and it was just that much more contagious. 

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17 hours ago, whitestavern said:

I agree. I wish there was more information put out. I read so much from the UK and Singapore and Israel and feel like our country isn't putting anything out. I think it's because they're afraid if they do, the people that feel like they're "safer" won't get the vaccine. But I think it's hurting not helping with the vaccine reluctance. 

I doubt anything the government puts out is going to affect the vaccine hesitancy. It's way too political right now. 

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3 hours ago, mommyoffive said:

I actually think that article would be great for those with vaccine concerns to read.  It shows that none of this is just being rushed through and they want to make sure they do it right and that nothing’s going to show up when released wide scale that’s unexpected. Reading that should be very reassuring to those who are afraid it’s not being properly tested. 
 

For all the people who are really worried about  kids being vaccinated and claim that as their main concern, the best thing adults could do would be to make sure every adult possible is vaxed, that way we are protecting kids. If every adult was vaccinated, kids would be much safer too (not the least of which would be due to not watching their family members die of this preventable disease and being able to return to normal life and activities because the adults were protecting them). 

1 hour ago, Not_a_Number said:

I doubt anything the government puts out is going to affect the vaccine hesitancy. It's way too political right now. 

Agree. It’s unfortunately to the point where I think it’s better for the government NOT to try to improve vaccine uptake, because I think a sizable proportion of those not vaccinated are automatically going to do the opposite of whatever the current administration says 😕. The airwaves are full of people making the vaccine a political plot of some kind. Fortunately, those at highest risk, the elderly, have tended to have enough self-preservation instinct to choose to stay safe rather than to align with their politics. 

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21 hours ago, KSera said:

I’m keeping mine out of public places and only visiting with other fully vaccinated families right now. I know it’s possible they could get it anyway with Delta so contagious, but at least I expect it would likely be okay if they do. Though, I know of several families now where the unvaccinated kid caught it first and then spread to the vaccinated family members. So far none of them with bad complications, though. Still, we will keep doing the best we can. Not locking down, but not taking them indoors in public, and only playing in person with their best friends, who come from fully vaccinated families who are similarly careful. (They only visited their friends outdoors before the vaccine was available.)

This is how we are doing things, too.  Our unvaccinated DD’s BFF is vaccinated though, so we have allowed sleepovers and maskless play inside.  BFF comes here, because her little brother is not vaxxed. He does come over occasionally to hang out, but they mostly play outside and wear masks if he comes in. If we did not have those friends … I’d have to resort to something else for DD, even riskier.

We aren’t taking DD into store, etc, no classes this summer (such a bummer), mostly just to medical stuff. Though we did take her into a very exciting bakery (for her - it’s free of the top 8 allergens, her first time being able to order anything!)… everyone was masked, take out only.  
 

 

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We were locked down pretty hard from March 2020-June 2021. Not quite as hard as some folks here, but way harder than anyone I know in person.  But now all four of us are vaccinated.  And I'm worried about Delta, but I feel like we have to take some risks.  I'm doing a day treatment mental health program to make some much needed psych med changes.  My kids are doing some small group visits with other vaccinated teen friends.  We're catching up on some medical appointments.  We saw family for the first time in two years.  I don't think I can keep my kids out of school another year.  My oldest will be a senior next year and has had some pretty major mental health issues, and there is no way they can go from full virtual life to college.  My youngest one, if we were actually homeschooling, would probably be fine, but our relationship doesn't work homeschooling, and she has not learned anything from virtual school in the last year and a half.  That's a massive academic hit, and we cannot sustain another year of it.  

I don't know that it's the right choice.  I feel like we've tried to do the right things, the safe things for so danged long, and I know viruses don't care, but there are real costs to being locked down indefinitely as well.  

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4 minutes ago, Terabith said:

We were locked down pretty hard from March 2020-June 2021. Not quite as hard as some folks here, but way harder than anyone I know in person.  But now all four of us are vaccinated.  And I'm worried about Delta, but I feel like we have to take some risks.  I'm doing a day treatment mental health program to make some much needed psych med changes.  My kids are doing some small group visits with other vaccinated teen friends.  We're catching up on some medical appointments.  We saw family for the first time in two years.  I don't think I can keep my kids out of school another year.  My oldest will be a senior next year and has had some pretty major mental health issues, and there is no way they can go from full virtual life to college.  My youngest one, if we were actually homeschooling, would probably be fine, but our relationship doesn't work homeschooling, and she has not learned anything from virtual school in the last year and a half.  That's a massive academic hit, and we cannot sustain another year of it.  

I don't know that it's the right choice.  I feel like we've tried to do the right things, the safe things for so danged long, and I know viruses don't care, but there are real costs to being locked down indefinitely as well.  

I think that for those fully vaccinated it makes all sorts of sense to start doing things, especially with other vaccinated folks. 

I think the harder burden is on those with kids who can't be vaccinated yet. Different calculation, and I am SO eager for a vaccine for kids. 

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Just now, ktgrok said:

I think that for those fully vaccinated it makes all sorts of sense to start doing things, especially with other vaccinated folks. 

I think the harder burden is on those with kids who can't be vaccinated yet. Different calculation, and I am SO eager for a vaccine for kids. 

Oh, absolutely!!!!  I think my calculus would be different if my kids were unvaccinated, for sure!  

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2 hours ago, mommyoffive said:

The UK data in that article shows full vaccination only providing 85% efficacy against hospitalization with Delta, which is significantly lower than they were reporting before. I think the last figures I saw from the UK were 88% protection against symptomatic infection, and ~95% against hospitalization, but maybe those stats included a mix of Delta and Alpha? 85% efficacy against hospitalization seems more in line with the stats from Israel and Singapore that showed 64-69% efficacy against infection. And that's not good news, no matter how people try to spin it.

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5 hours ago, mommyoffive said:

I'm not done reading, but already have some confusion. Mostly from this

image.thumb.png.787f3298be67ece897176fe78ad1baa9.png

How is it that the age range of breakthrough cases was 40-74, but the median age of patients who died was 82?

Second, this chart:

image.thumb.png.d92ab592d4d2af279affd81c485d343b.png

Do they mean that 20% of the breakthrough cases were people who died of something other than Covid and had no Covid symptoms, but they happened to test positive for Covid around the time of death?

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30 minutes ago, KSera said:

I'm not done reading, but already have some confusion. Mostly from this

image.thumb.png.787f3298be67ece897176fe78ad1baa9.png

How is it that the age range of breakthrough cases was 40-74, but the median age of patients who died was 82?

Second, this chart:

image.thumb.png.d92ab592d4d2af279affd81c485d343b.png

Do they mean that 20% of the breakthrough cases were people who died of something other than Covid and had no Covid symptoms, but they happened to test positive for Covid around the time of death?

I might be missing some context but the median age of breakthrough cases was 58. These are people who could have just had a sore throat or whatever. Only 10% of that group was hospitalized. I see nothing about death regarding this group.

 

The median age of the people who actually died was 82.

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56 minutes ago, KSera said:

How is it that the age range of breakthrough cases was 40-74, but the median age of patients who died was 82?

40-74 is the interquartile range, it means that 50% of patients fell into that range, and 58 was the median age of the whole group. The interquartile range of those who died was 71-89 with a median of 82. 

Edited by Corraleno
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3 hours ago, Corraleno said:

40-74 is the interquartile range, it means that 50% of patients fell into that range, and 58 was the median age of the whole group. The interquartile range of those who died was 71-89 with a median of 82. 

Thank you 🤦‍♀️. I should have seen the link to read the actual paper. Now it makes sense. 

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12 hours ago, Corraleno said:

The UK data in that article shows full vaccination only providing 85% efficacy against hospitalization with Delta, which is significantly lower than they were reporting before. I think the last figures I saw from the UK were 88% protection against symptomatic infection, and ~95% against hospitalization, but maybe those stats included a mix of Delta and Alpha? 85% efficacy against hospitalization seems more in line with the stats from Israel and Singapore that showed 64-69% efficacy against infection. And that's not good news, no matter how people try to spin it.

Where are you getting that number? I’m skimming, so maybe I missed something.

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On 7/16/2021 at 3:30 PM, mommyoffive said:

I’m quoting this post because I got to the PHE report from there.

Am I reading this right? From PHE report https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/1001358/Variants_of_Concern_VOC_Technical_Briefing_18.pdf

Secondary attack rates, both in household and out of household, are now very similar on the whole for Alpha and Beta, keeping in mind that the Alpha data is from January-June and Delta is more recent. 

Table 6.

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2 minutes ago, Penelope said:

I’m quoting this post because I got to the PHE report from there.

Am I reading this right? From PHE report https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/1001358/Variants_of_Concern_VOC_Technical_Briefing_18.pdf

Secondary attack rates, both in household and out of household, are now very similar on the whole for Alpha and Beta, keeping in mind that the Alpha data is from January-June and Delta is more recent. 

Table 6.

I don’t have time to read it yet, but did they look specifically at secondary attack rates in unvaccinated households? Because I would expect secondary attack rates to be way down if they were similarly contagious, since the older adults on households are likely to be vaccinated. Right now, a lot of outbreaks in UK are starting in schools and childcare and then coming home. They aren’t going to transmit much to the vaccinated people in the household. If they appear similar, that would suggest to me that Delta is much more transmissible. 

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On 7/9/2021 at 11:23 AM, Penelope said:

I think this is right, just from what I hear and read. 

We will probably have other variants. By the fall, we might not be seeing Delta anymore, it could just as well be another one with some combination of these similar mutations. 

I agree with you; I think more people will get vaccinated before the end of the year. I do think a few people were are off by the talk of boosters and when cases were down when they became eligible, they thought they might just as well wait for the first doses. There is a certain logic to that, I guess. 

I don’t how any of us here can say that when the scientists aren’t even sure.

I learn so much from this podcast, but this episode was particularly good and pertains to this discussion. https://www.microbe.tv/twiv/twiv-777/ 

The first hour is most of the content.
 

It talks about the concept of viral fitness vs transmissibility as the title says, and how the public conversation about transmissibility of variants is very muddled and inaccurate, but so much more.
There is a lot about vaccination, B and T cells, the differences between Covid and influenza vaccines and what they do, why most people should not need boosters with the current VOC (something said not only here, but many other experts), and an interesting note about flu vaccination and the debate over whether we should vaccinate children for flu only with an inactivated vaccine like FluMist, since other flu vaccines do not produce T cell responses and immune memory. (This is something I have wondered about for a long time). 
 

I plan to listen again, but other interesting points that I’ve heard before, elsewhere:

-assays for neutralization (in all the variant neutralization studies, for example) are not standardized for this virus among labs. So you can’t directly compare all the different studies you see.

-antibody assays are not standardized either. Different countries use different ones with different measurements.

-and this one is huge- we don’t have a correlate of protection for this virus the way we do for influenza. With influenza, when antibodies go below a certain level, you will get infections. We don’t know what this is for this virus, they are learning as they go. But flu vaccines don’t induce good T cell responses the way the Covid vaccines do. T cells protect from severe disease, which changes the whole picture, and they go into this a lot more.

 

Unless they changed FluMIst, it was a live vaccine, which is why no one in my family could get one- to protect my dd2 and me.

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As to messaging for getting people to take vaccines, my dh remarked that all the news stories or ads that keep showing repeated shots of people getting the vaccinations in their arms probably do not help get needle phobics in.  I mean, I saw one segment last week that must have shown about 10-12 needles being stuck in people.  Doesn't bother myself or my husband, but I can't see it helping vaccine resistance.

Then the whole CDC and whoever continuing telling us how we the vaccines we have now may not be good enough- again over and over and over again.  That can't help vaccine- resistance either.

 

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3 hours ago, TravelingChris said:

Then the whole CDC and whoever continuing telling us how we the vaccines we have now may not be good enough- again over and over and over again.  That can't help vaccine- resistance either.

 

This is my guess for why the studies from Israel and Singapore are being swept under the rug and the focus is now just on hospitalizations.  Less people will want a vaccine that isn't as effective.

I will add that I like the way some of the cruise lines are getting around the vaccine restrictions sailing out of Florida.  Good for them!  ETA: that came out wrong.  I was trying to give credit to the lines that are doing everything they can to protect passengers while following the law against vaccine passports.

Edited by melmichigan
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9 minutes ago, regentrude said:

Until the next outbreak on a cruise ship which is the perfect incubator for a highly communicable disease. That can't possibly be good for business.

I was giving them credit for finding ways to cut down on risk while not "technically" violating the ridiculous law aimed at preventing them from prohibiting non-vaccinated passengers, things like requiring insurance and testing fees, restricting areas of the ship like restaurants, casinos, and such to vaccinated passengers only, and requiring vaccines for certain ports. Things that are an attempt to limit non-vaccinated passengers and still within the letters of the law.

https://www.businessinsider.com/cruise-lines-floridas-vaccine-passport-ban-workaround-causes-unvaccinated-difficulties-2021-7

 

Edited by melmichigan
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3 minutes ago, melmichigan said:

I was giving them credit for finding ways to cut down on risk while not "technically" violating the ridiculous law aimed at preventing them from prohibiting non-vaccinated passengers, things like requiring insurance and testing fees, restricting areas of the ship like restaurants, casinos, and such to vaccinated passengers only, and requiring vaccines for certain ports. 🤷‍♀️  Things that are an attempt to limit non-vaccinated passengers and still within the letters of the law.

Gotcha. Sorry I misunderstood.

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17 hours ago, TravelingChris said:

As to messaging for getting people to take vaccines, my dh remarked that all the news stories or ads that keep showing repeated shots of people getting the vaccinations in their arms probably do not help get needle phobics in.  I mean, I saw one segment last week that must have shown about 10-12 needles being stuck in people.  Doesn't bother myself or my husband, but I can't see it helping vaccine resistance.

Then the whole CDC and whoever continuing telling us how we the vaccines we have now may not be good enough- again over and over and over again.  That can't help vaccine- resistance either.

 

I agree - more upbeat messaging would be good, about protecting the community or grandma or kids maybe... no more needles! I’m not needle phobic but even I turn away when it’s on TV.

I also think focusing on a good %vaccinated goal... whatever that would be... would be good - “Look, 80% vaccination would be great protection for grandma and the kids, and we wouldn’t need masks anymore, but we’re currently at 65.3% so mask up!”

A goal + update on where we are towards the goal would be good. Right now I don’t think people know what the goal is or how close we are to meeting it. 
“As many vaccinated as possible” is too vague.

I watch SkyNews (British) sometimes because it comes free on my TV. I like it a lot because every hour or so, something comes on the screen saying what % of the population in each area is vaccinated. It’s very matter-of-fact.

I would like to see, too, updates about new cases, hospitalizations, and deaths, comparing vaccinated to unvaccinated people, on the TV/FB ads/whatever. Many people will think it’s made up I suppose, but hopefully some would take it to heart. 

 

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17 hours ago, melmichigan said:

I was giving them credit for finding ways to cut down on risk while not "technically" violating the ridiculous law aimed at preventing them from prohibiting non-vaccinated passengers, things like requiring insurance and testing fees, restricting areas of the ship like restaurants, casinos, and such to vaccinated passengers only, and requiring vaccines for certain ports. Things that are an attempt to limit non-vaccinated passengers and still within the letters of the law.

https://www.businessinsider.com/cruise-lines-floridas-vaccine-passport-ban-workaround-causes-unvaccinated-difficulties-2021-7

 

What I also noticed is that a lot of the "vaccinated only" things are stuff that tend to be adults only or at least are preferred by adults vs families, so it seems like the experience isn't going to be altered much for anyone but unvaccinated adults without kids. I do hope there is a medical waiver available, although if you are unable to be vaccinated, I think a cruise might be a poor choice. The ports are likely to be out of the hands of the ship. I can hardly blame countries for not wanting a bunch of unvaccinated people coming in and potentially spreading different strains!

 

 

I think that adding limits is reasonable when the Governor has tied the hands of businesses. I've seen some colleges do similar things, where vaccination is not required, but there are restrictions for unvaccinated compared to vaccinated. I do think it might be easier to enforce on a ship, though. 

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18 hours ago, melmichigan said:

I was giving them credit for finding ways to cut down on risk while not "technically" violating the ridiculous law aimed at preventing them from prohibiting non-vaccinated passengers, things like requiring insurance and testing fees, restricting areas of the ship like restaurants, casinos, and such to vaccinated passengers only, and requiring vaccines for certain ports. Things that are an attempt to limit non-vaccinated passengers and still within the letters of the law.

https://www.businessinsider.com/cruise-lines-floridas-vaccine-passport-ban-workaround-causes-unvaccinated-difficulties-2021-7

 

The 11th court circuit struck down the state laws against cruise companies being forced to not follow CDC recommendations. That was brought by Norwegian Cruise Lines which was suing Florida.  I expect it to be going to US Supreme Court.

 

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1 hour ago, melmichigan said:

They are about 90% double vaccinated for ages 70+.  As the vaccination rate increases you would expect them to become a higher percentage of the hospitalized cases because 85% effective is not 100% effective.  We would need to know the ages of the people hospitalized to suss out how effective the vaccine is from those numbers, but I think the takeaway is that vaccination is helping prevent hospitalization in a significant way.  One would expect it to be even more effective against icu hospitalization and death.

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