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The Vaccine Thread


JennyD

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Posted (edited)

Some of the data on long covid:

"A post-acute outpatient service established in Italy (hereby referred to as the post-acute COVID-19 Italian study)3 reported persistence of symptoms in 87.4% of 143 patients discharged from hospital who recovered from acute COVID-19 at a mean follow-up of 60 d from the onset of the first symptom. Fatigue (53.1%), dyspnea (43.4%), joint pain (27.3%) and chest pain (21.7%) were the most commonly reported symptoms, with 55% of patients continuing to experience three or more symptoms. A decline in quality of life, as measured by the EuroQol visual analog scale, was noted in 44.1% of patients in this study.

A study focused on 150 survivors of non-critical COVID-19 from France similarly reported persistence of symptoms in two-thirds of individuals at 60 d follow-up, with one-third reporting feeling worse than at the onset of acute COVID-19 (ref. 21).

Other studies, including in-person prospective follow-up studies of 110 survivors in the United Kingdom at 8–12 weeks after hospital admission22 and 277 survivors in Spain at 10–14 weeks after disease onset23, as well as survey studies of 100 COVID-19 survivors in the United Kingdom at 4–8 weeks post-discharge24, 183 individuals in the United States at 35 d post-discharge25 and 120 patients discharged from hospital in France, at 100 d following admission26, reported similar findings. Fatigue, dyspnea and psychological distress, such as post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD), anxiety, depression and concentration and sleep abnormalities, were noted in approximately 30% or more study participants at the time of follow-up.

In a prospective cohort study from Wuhan, China, long-term consequences of acute COVID-19 were evaluated by comprehensive in-person evaluation of 1,733 patients at 6 months from symptom onset (hereby referred to as the post-acute COVID-19 Chinese study)5. The study utilized survey questionnaires, physical examination, 6-min walk tests (6MWT) and blood tests and, in selected cases, pulmonary function tests (PFTs), high-resolution computed tomography of the chest and ultrasonography to evaluate post-acute COVID-19 end organ injury. A majority of the patients (76%) reported at least one symptom. Similar to other studies, fatigue/muscular weakness was the most commonly reported symptom (63%), followed by sleep difficulties (26%) and anxiety/depression (23%).

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41591-021-01283-z


US study looking at insurance claims for 2 million covid patients:

  • Of patients who had COVID-19, 23.2 percent had at least one post-COVID condition.

  • Post-COVID conditions were found to a greater extent in patients who had more severe cases of COVID-19, but also in a substantial share of patients whose cases lacked symptoms. Of patients who were hospitalized with COVID-19, the percentage that had a post-COVID condition was 50 percent; of patients who were symptomatic but not hospitalized, 27.5 percent; and of patients who were asymptomatic, 19 percent.

  • The five most common post-COVID conditions across all ages, in order from most to least common, were pain, breathing difficulties, hyperlipidemia, malaise and fatigue, and hypertension.

  • The ranking of the most common post-COVID conditions varied by age group. For example, in the pediatric population (0-18), pain and breathing difficulties were the top two conditions, as in the all-ages cohort, but intestinal issues, rather than hyperlipidemia, were the third most common.

  • Most of the post-COVID conditions that were evaluated were associated more with females than males. In the case of 12 conditions, however, males more commonly had the condition diagnosed than females. For example, of patients who had post-COVID cardiac inflammation, 52 percent were male and 48 percent female. By age, the largest share (25.4 percent) with this condition was found in a young cohortindividuals aged 19-29.

  • Of the four mental health conditions evaluated as post-COVID conditions, anxiety was associated with the highest percentage of patients after COVID-19 in all age groups. Depression was second, adjustment disorders third and tic disorders fourth.

  • The odds of death 30 days or more after initial diagnosis with COVID-19 were 46 times higher for patients who were hospitalized with COVID-19 and discharged than patients who had not been hospitalized (odds ratio [OR]=46.020, 95 percent confidence interval [CI], 34.778-60.897, P<0.001). Of COVID-19 patients who were hospitalized and discharged, 0.5 percent died 30 days or more after their initial diagnosis.

https://s3.amazonaws.com/media2.fairhealth.org/whitepaper/asset/A Detailed Study of Patients with Long-Haul COVID--An Analysis of Private Healthcare Claims--A FAIR Health White Paper.pdf

UK study:
37.7% of 76,155 symptomatic people post COVID-19 experienced at least one symptom, while 14.8% experienced three or more symptoms, lasting 12 weeks or more... Almost a third of people 8,771/28,713 (30.5%) with at least one symptom lasting 12 weeks or more reported having had severe COVID-19 symptom [i.e. 2/3 had mild or moderate cases]
https://spiral.imperial.ac.uk/bitstream/10044/1/89844/9/REACT_long_covid_paper_final.pdf

Irish study:
"62% of patients did not feel back to full health and ... 47% of our cohort met the diagnostic criteria for fatigue, independent of initial severity of infection. This study highlights the persistence of ill health following SARS-CoV-2 infection that presents a serious burden to quality of life. The lack of association with infection severity highlights that this may be an issue for a large number of patients, and this should be used to inform management strategies for convalescent patients."  
https://www.thoracic.org/about/newsroom/post-covid-complications.pdf

Italian study on long covid in children:
"129 children diagnosed with COVID-19 between March and November, 2020 were enrolled (mean age of 11 4.4 years, 62 (48.1%) female). Subsequently, three developed Multisystem Inflammatory Syndrome (2.3%) and two myocarditis (1.6%). Patients were assessed on average 162.5 ± 113.7 days after COVID-19 microbiological diagnosis. 41.8% completely recovered, 35.7% had 1 or 2 symptoms and 22.5% had 3 or more. 52.7% had at least one symptom 120 days or more after diagnosis."
https://spiral.imperial.ac.uk/bitstream/10044/1/89844/9/REACT_long_covid_paper_final.pdf

Edited by Corraleno
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3 hours ago, whitestavern said:

One person in the trial did get viral myocarditis. I am not familiar at all with the difference, if any, between that and regular myocarditis. 

https://www.news-medical.net/news/20210705/Novavax-COVID-19-vaccine-demonstrates-7e9025-efficacy-against-SARS-CoV-2.aspx

myocarditis is just the term for heart inflammation. It can happen due to a virus, or other immune trigger. Sounds like that one was caused by a virus. 

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Vaccine Q for my mum. 

She's 4 weeks out from her second AZ shot. So she's 8 weeks from her first.

We are in the middle of a Delta outbreak. Should I encourage her to get her second dose early? 

Thankfully my dad has his second dose in a few days. 

Edited by Melissa Louise
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1 hour ago, Melissa Louise said:

Vaccine Q for my mum. 

She's 4 weeks out from her second AZ shot. So she's 8 weeks from her first.

We are in the middle of a Delta outbreak. Should I encourage her to get her second dose early? 

Thankfully my dad has his second dose in a few days. 

I see a lot of studies trying to figure this out. They all seem confounded to me by the fact that protection builds as time goes by, so is the second dose at 12 weeks better because of the interval, or because it's been 12 weeks total time for immunity to build? This abc article suggests 8 weeks is the sweet spot where you get to full immunity sooner, without sacrificing much efficacy: https://www.abc.net.au/news/health/2021-07-05/astrazeneca-vaccine-timing-doses/100259926

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2 hours ago, Melissa Louise said:

Vaccine Q for my mum. 

She's 4 weeks out from her second AZ shot. So she's 8 weeks from her first.

We are in the middle of a Delta outbreak. Should I encourage her to get her second dose early? 

Thankfully my dad has his second dose in a few days. 

8 weeks between shots is the current protocol for AZ here.

it’s a choice between pretty good immunity sooner (8 weeks between shots) vs maybe better immunity later (12 weeks between shots).  

Given your national situation, I think I would opt for pretty good immunity sooner.

 

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20 hours ago, mommyoffive said:

Too funny.  I love that we can disagree and still find something we can agree on.  


🙂
It might be that if full and transparent information were readily available we would end up agreeing more in general

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Ugh, vaccinated (Moderna) dh just got a positive rapid test.  He's had a fever since Weds and I've had him totally isolated (bc I didn't want him to give it to the kids who were going to go to camp this next week.)  He had a negative rapid Wed, the positive today. Ugh.ugh.ugh.  It's crazy bc we are in a high vax area with low case numbers,  and he is definitely careful (still double masks at the grocery store.)  Maybe the PCR will come back negative.....

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32 minutes ago, freesia said:

Ugh, vaccinated (Moderna) dh just got a positive rapid test.  He's had a fever since Weds and I've had him totally isolated (bc I didn't want him to give it to the kids who were going to go to camp this next week.)  He had a negative rapid Wed, the positive today. Ugh.ugh.ugh.  It's crazy bc we are in a high vax area with low case numbers,  and he is definitely careful (still double masks at the grocery store.)  Maybe the PCR will come back negative.....

Oh wow.  That sucks so bad.  I am so sorry.  It makes me so worried about things when I hear things like that.   I hope that he feels better soon and that everyone else can avoid it.    

Edited by mommyoffive
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38 minutes ago, freesia said:

Ugh, vaccinated (Moderna) dh just got a positive rapid test.  He's had a fever since Weds and I've had him totally isolated (bc I didn't want him to give it to the kids who were going to go to camp this next week.)  He had a negative rapid Wed, the positive today. Ugh.ugh.ugh.  It's crazy bc we are in a high vax area with low case numbers,  and he is definitely careful (still double masks at the grocery store.)  Maybe the PCR will come back negative.....

Oh, crud! That is not good news at all. does he know anyone who currently has it? I’ll be hoping for you guys that it was a false positive and the PCR comes back negative.

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1 hour ago, Mona said:


mhmm 

all the Greek letters at least through lambda are in use for “variants” supposed to be circulating... 

I guess Epsilon is there in calif and I think iota or maybe kappa in New York...

 

Lambda supposed to be significantly sweeping South America and has reached UK

 

i have not heard from mu or nu ... 

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23 minutes ago, KSera said:

Oh, crud! That is not good news at all. does he know anyone who currently has it? I’ll be hoping for you guys that it was a false positive and the PCR comes back negative.

No, no one. It’s mystifying. 

Dd’s camp, which is camp postponed from last year, was able to push her to another week—but she’ll miss camp with her friends.  Luckily she makes friends easily. I just really wanted her to go with these other girls as they’ve been waiting so long for this ( since we registered in Nov 2019)

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6 minutes ago, Pen said:

all the Greek letters at least through lambda are in use for “variants” supposed to be circulating... 

If people would get vaccinated, we wouldn't have so many variants circulating, and we wouldn't have ten thousand people dying of Covid every month, and increasing by the day.

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1 hour ago, Mona said:

Epsilon has been around for almost a year. It has the same L452R mutation as Delta, which helps it evade antibodies (the NY variant, Iota, has this mutation as well). But it doesn't seem to be outcompeting Delta, which is now the dominant strain in CA, as well as the US. Epsilon helped drive the big spike in CA last fall & winter, and then Alpha dominated in April/May, and now Delta is starting to push cases back up in CA. 

Lambda (Peru) has two mutations in common with Delta, and although it seems to be more infectious than either Gamma (Brazil) or Alpha, I haven't seen any reports so far that it is worse than Delta.

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2 hours ago, freesia said:

Ugh, vaccinated (Moderna) dh just got a positive rapid test.  He's had a fever since Weds and I've had him totally isolated (bc I didn't want him to give it to the kids who were going to go to camp this next week.)  He had a negative rapid Wed, the positive today. Ugh.ugh.ugh.  It's crazy bc we are in a high vax area with low case numbers,  and he is definitely careful (still double masks at the grocery store.)  Maybe the PCR will come back negative.....

Oh no 😞 . I hope the PCR comes back negative!! Keep us updated. 

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On 7/9/2021 at 8:28 PM, whitestavern said:

One person in the trial did get viral myocarditis. I am not familiar at all with the difference, if any, between that and regular myocarditis. 

https://www.news-medical.net/news/20210705/Novavax-COVID-19-vaccine-demonstrates-7e9025-efficacy-against-SARS-CoV-2.aspx

It's a type of myocarditis - there are others (I'm not sure the study specified the other options and their incidence),

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20 hours ago, freesia said:

Ugh, vaccinated (Moderna) dh just got a positive rapid test.  He's had a fever since Weds and I've had him totally isolated (bc I didn't want him to give it to the kids who were going to go to camp this next week.)  He had a negative rapid Wed, the positive today. Ugh.ugh.ugh.  It's crazy bc we are in a high vax area with low case numbers,  and he is definitely careful (still double masks at the grocery store.)  Maybe the PCR will come back negative.....

Oh no! That’s terrible! How is he feeling today?

When will he get the results of the PCR test? 

It was so smart of you to immediately isolate him from the rest of the family. Hopefully, no one else will catch whatever he has (and obviously I hope it’s not Covid!) 

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29 minutes ago, Catwoman said:

Oh no! That’s terrible! How is he feeling today?

When will he get the results of the PCR test? 

It was so smart of you to immediately isolate him from the rest of the family. Hopefully, no one else will catch whatever he has (and obviously I hope it’s not Covid!) 

We are still waiting on the test results.  His fever is finally under control and staying down between doses. Still no other symptoms. Nothing respiratory at all.

I isolated him bc I thought it was just a virus but I didn’t want anything to interfere with camp. I am so glad I did.  

I am hoping that if it is covid that it’s true vaccinated people are less likely to spread it. And that I am less likely to get it bc I am vaccinated.   I am masking and washing each time I drop off food .  

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On 7/10/2021 at 1:41 PM, wathe said:

8 weeks between shots is the current protocol for AZ here.

it’s a choice between pretty good immunity sooner (8 weeks between shots) vs maybe better immunity later (12 weeks between shots).  

Given your national situation, I think I would opt for pretty good immunity sooner.

 

She's calling her GP today to move her spot forward. She's almost at 9 weeks now, so I felt comfortable giving this advice. Ty.

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I don’t know if this question belongs here or a separate thread. I’m seeing politicians and certain major US networks making a big, concerted push lately to prevent people from getting vaccinated, and I’m wondering if anyone who agrees with that can explain what the reason is for that. I don’t understand what the end game is. How do people who feel that way rationalize the thousands of unvaccinated dying every week from Covid when the vaccinated are not? I’m asking these questions sincerely, because I really can’t understand what the thinking is and understanding that seems the first step. I’m honestly totally baffled (and dismayed). 

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Was just asking my dh what he thought the answer to this might be, and I did have one thought come to mind that I hadn’t considered, but it’s political and seems just too downright sinister. It’s the only one I can come up with so far, though. 

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Can anyone point me toward anything recent on vaccine and heart issues particularly Astra Zeneca but anything really?  I can search so don’t worry if it’s going to take much time but just thought someone might know what’s recent advice.
 

 

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2 hours ago, Ausmumof3 said:

Can anyone point me toward anything recent on vaccine and heart issues particularly Astra Zeneca but anything really?  I can search so don’t worry if it’s going to take much time but just thought someone might know what’s recent advice.
 

 

I’m pretty certain I saw something on the BBC news page a couple of days ago stating there was a link to myocarditis with the mRNA vaccines but not with Astra Zeneca or J&J.

 

ETA Sorry I tried to find it so I could link but I couldn’t so I may be wrong about where I saw it.

Edited by TCB
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2 hours ago, Ausmumof3 said:

Can anyone point me toward anything recent on vaccine and heart issues particularly Astra Zeneca but anything really?  I can search so don’t worry if it’s going to take much time but just thought someone might know what’s recent advice.
 

 

I think the link TCB's referring to is the European Medical Agency research I linked to (via BBC) earlier.

Statistics summary:
Myocarditis risk for Pfizer = 2 per million
Myocarditis risk for Moderna = 1 per million
Myocarditis risk for OxfordAstrazeneca and Janssen (either version) = no cases directly linked to vaccine
Novovax/Bhatia Bharat/others = not tested in this research

 

Basically, it's a small risk if you have no pre-existing factors for myocarditis - but if you do have risk factors (especially if you are advising young men with risk factors), steering towards OxfordAstrazeneca/Janssen/an alternative may be wise.

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20 minutes ago, ieta_cassiopeia said:

I think the link TCB's referring to is the European Medical Agency research I linked to (via BBC) earlier.

Statistics summary:
Myocarditis risk for Pfizer = 2 per million
Myocarditis risk for Moderna = 1 per million
Myocarditis risk for OxfordAstrazeneca and Janssen (either version) = no cases directly linked to vaccine
Novovax/Bhatia Bharat/others = not tested in this research

 

Basically, it's a small risk if you have no pre-existing factors for myocarditis - but if you do have risk factors (especially if you are advising young men with risk factors), steering towards OxfordAstrazeneca/Janssen/an alternative may be wise.

Ok thanks perfect that’s what I wanted to know.

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16 minutes ago, mommyoffive said:

Ugh, dh and I were just discussing the possibility of attending a family member's outdoor wedding in western Missouri.  We are both fully vax and I thought between that and being outdoors it would be ok.  Hmm...

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4 minutes ago, Syllieann said:

Ugh, dh and I were just discussing the possibility of attending a family member's outdoor wedding in western Missouri.  We are both fully vax and I thought between that and being outdoors it would be ok.  Hmm...

Yeah it really bothers me that maybe that isn't ok.  UGH.  I was feeling good about being fully vaccinated and doing things outdoors around people with no mask.

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26 minutes ago, mommyoffive said:

As always with these outdoor transmission events, I wish there was more in formation. Were these six people inside together at some point? How closely did they interact? These are answers I really wish we had. because if the six of them went out for drinks before the wedding, that’s an entirely different thing than the level of concern I would have if they were six people who didn’t know each other and only shared the same outdoor air space.

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5 minutes ago, mommyoffive said:

“It’s not surprising to find these types of adverse events associated with vaccination,” said Dr. Luciana Borio, a former acting chief scientist at the F.D.A. under President Barack Obama. The data collected so far by the F.D.A., she added, suggested that the vaccine’s benefits “continue to vastly outweigh the risks.”

I appreciate this slightly nuanced messaging (the benefits outweigh the risks) much more than the blanket "safe and effective" mantra. 

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3 minutes ago, KSera said:

As always with these outdoor transmission events, I wish there was more in formation. Were these six people inside together at some point? How closely did they interact? These are answers I really wish we had. because if the six of them went out for drinks before the wedding, that’s an entirely different thing than the level of concern I would have if they were six people who didn’t know each other and only shared the same outdoor air space.

I agree that we need more information to make personal risk decisions based on this.  Outside often doesn't really mean outside.  Could mean in a tent, could mean shared indoor washrooms where people went to get out of the heat etc.  

It is useful from a public health point of view  though - lots of outside activities were banned during lockdown here because public health knows that these sorts of activities tend to not be strictly outdoors, and that they do lead to some transmission for all the reasons KSera listed above.

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6 minutes ago, wathe said:

I agree that we need more information to make personal risk decisions based on this.  Outside often doesn't really mean outside.  Could mean in a tent, could mean shared indoor washrooms where people went to get out of the heat etc.  

It is useful from a public health point of view  though - lots of outside activities were banned during lockdown here because public health knows that these sorts of activities tend to not be strictly outdoors, and that they do lead to some transmission for all the reasons KSera listed above.

There were 92 people in an open air tent, but there were two patient 0s who had traveled from India, so I would think they were staying at a relative's house, thus increasing risk of transmission.  I agree that more details would help.

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Update:the clinac didn’t send out the PCR test bc the rapid was positive. So, we will never know. Looks like he will remain isolated until Saturday and unvaccinated dd will stay quarantined. His fever has broken. Still no other symptoms besides a slight headache. Everyone else remains healthy. 

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56 minutes ago, mommyoffive said:

Now that I’ve read the preprint, the headline from Business Insider appears untrue. One of the Pfizer recipients was hospitalized:

Patient 1, who received the Pfizer BNT162b2 vaccine developed severe symptoms and was admitted to Baylor St. Luke’s hospital for monoclonal antibody infusion treatment (Regeneron Pharmaceuticals Inc.) on ten days after the wedding.”

One Covaxin recipient died. It sounds like the two travelers from India were likely infected before their vaccine took full effect; they traveled day 10 after vaccination. 

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6 minutes ago, freesia said:

Update:the clinac didn’t send out the PCR test bc the rapid was positive. So, we will never know. Looks like he will remain isolated until Saturday and unvaccinated dd will stay quarantined. His fever has broken. Still no other symptoms besides a slight headache. Everyone else remains healthy. 

I’m glad at least everyone is doing fine, but that seems ridiculous to me that they didn’t send the PCR in so you know whether quarantine is necessary. 

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1 hour ago, KSera said:

Now that I’ve read the preprint, the headline from Business Insider appears untrue. One of the Pfizer recipients was hospitalized:

Patient 1, who received the Pfizer BNT162b2 vaccine developed severe symptoms and was admitted to Baylor St. Luke’s hospital for monoclonal antibody infusion treatment (Regeneron Pharmaceuticals Inc.) on ten days after the wedding.”

One Covaxin recipient died. It sounds like the two travelers from India were likely infected before their vaccine took full effect; they traveled day 10 after vaccination. 

The headline is bizarre. O n the actual page with the Business Insider article it says "...didn't die," but the link says "...didn't get very sick."  I wonder if they changed it.

Where are you seeing the bit about covaxin being 10 days before travel? I can't find that.

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2 hours ago, KSera said:

As always with these outdoor transmission events, I wish there was more in formation. Were these six people inside together at some point? How closely did they interact? These are answers I really wish we had. because if the six of them went out for drinks before the wedding, that’s an entirely different thing than the level of concern I would have if they were six people who didn’t know each other and only shared the same outdoor air space.

I agree! There are so many factors that would make an outdoor wedding different (and potentially closer and longer contact) than other outdoor situations. 

Wedding receptions generally last for several hours, and the people may have been sitting around the same table inside a tent for long periods of time. Also, there is usually a lot of hugging and dancing at wedding receptions, which would mean more close contact. Then, there is the consideration that people would be speaking very loudly so they could hear each other over the music. Also, the guests were probably all sharing the same indoor bathroom facilities, and we don’t know if they were together at bars, restaurants, hotels, or inside relatives’ homes in addition to attending the wedding together.

I hate these news stories where we are only given part of the story, and of course, the part we are told is the part that sounds the scariest.

Edited by Catwoman
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6 minutes ago, mommyoffive said:

That's going t cause a public health sh*tstorm here, since our current national strategy officially involves mixing:  AZ people first dose are getting mRNA for second dose, and mRNA first dose  people are getting mixed courses of Pfizer / Moderna, depending which is available at the time of their second dose.

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It's also going to make my mass vax clinic shift this week very not fun.  We'll likely have Moderna for second doses (because that's what there's lots of in the country right now), and patients are likely to have had Pfizer for first doses (because that's what there was lots of at the time).  There's already anti-Moderna bias here to start with.  This will make it even worse.

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25 minutes ago, mommyoffive said:

As is common, I think the headline and story over states what she actually said. Here’s her full quote:

“There are people who are thinking about mixing and matching. We receive a lot of queries from people who say they have taken one [dose] and are planning to take another one (doses). It’s a little bit of a dangerous trend here. We are in a data-free, evidence-free zone as far as mix and match,” Swaminathan said in an online briefing earlier in the day.

“There is limited data on mix and match. There are studies going on, we need to wait for that. Maybe it will be a very good approach. But, at the moment we only have data on the Oxford-AstraZeneca vaccine, followed by Pfizer. It will be a chaotic situation in countries if citizens start deciding when and who will be taking a second, a third and a fourth dose,” she said.

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1 hour ago, KSera said:

As is common, I think the headline and story over states what she actually said. Here’s her full quote:

“There are people who are thinking about mixing and matching. We receive a lot of queries from people who say they have taken one [dose] and are planning to take another one (doses). It’s a little bit of a dangerous trend here. We are in a data-free, evidence-free zone as far as mix and match,” Swaminathan said in an online briefing earlier in the day.

“There is limited data on mix and match. There are studies going on, we need to wait for that. Maybe it will be a very good approach. But, at the moment we only have data on the Oxford-AstraZeneca vaccine, followed by Pfizer. It will be a chaotic situation in countries if citizens start deciding when and who will be taking a second, a third and a fourth dose,” she said.

I saw that.  Most people don't read beyond the headline, unfortunately.  

This WHO announcement is going to increase vaccine hesitancy here, and undermine public confidence.  Mixed dosing was already a tough sell, and this will make it ever so much worse.  More people are going to decline their second dose* and hold out for their preferred vaccine.  We can't afford delays in getting the population fully vaccinated ('cause Delta), and this is going to contribute to delays.

*Background on the Canadian situation for those who don't know:  We've had no end of supply difficulties.  Public health wanted to get as many people a first dose as quickly as possible (which made very good public health sense in vaccine-scarce conditions), so the dosing interval was extended to 16 weeks second doses weren't held back - the entire supply was administered for first doses as soon as possible.  We've had mostly Pfizer available since January (sources from Europe), and very little Moderna (sourced from USA, who had export bans), and lots of Pfizer in April and May when eligibility really opened up, so most people got Pfizer for their first dose.  Now we have a shortage of Pfizer, but plentiful Moderna.  And with delta breathing down our necks, public health has shortened the dosing interval back down to 4 weeks and endorsed a mixed-dosing regiment for mRNA vaccines, which also makes very good sense from a public health/population point of view.  So most people who got Pfizer for their first dose are now being provided with Moderna for their second dose.  And many of them are not happy about it.  Most accept it, but a small number decline and walk out.  I do about 60 - 80 shots per shift.  On Moderna days, I get grumbling/eye-roll/sigh from about half, and between 1 and 5 who decline and walk out.

There is also a weird anti-Moderna bias here, even for first doses, that defies logic.  Pfizer was the only one we had for a long time, so it's what people are used to hearing about and have somehow internalized that it's the original and the best, and that Moderna is some sort of knock-off brand.  Which makes no sense, of course. 

Edited by wathe
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3 minutes ago, wathe said:

There is also a weird anti-Moderna bias here, even for first doses, that defies logic.  Pfizer was the only one we had for a long time, so it's what people are used to hearing about and have somehow internalized that it's the original and the best, and that Moderna is some sort of knock-off brand.  Which makes no sense, of course. 

That has long been the case in the US as well. It's a weird thing. I think Pfizer has been in the news more often with various study results and they have more of a "name brand" recognition for people. Some people don't seem to care that Moderna performs essentially just the same from what we have seen so far, to the point that the two get lumped together in a lot of studies. Moderna does seem to have slightly higher incidence of some of the annoying post-vaccine effects, but those typically last for one day, so I can't see making the decision based on that. Moderna needs to publish some good news soon so that Pfizer isn't the one dominating the good vaccine news.

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