The Vaccine Thread

[Syllieann]

8 minutes ago, RootAnn said:

Intended typo? 🙂

Yep

[KSera]

3 hours ago, TCB said:

I’m not sure her dr will have any meaningful information about it. I keep going back and forth because she heard loud ringing but it literally lasted several seconds only. 

Is it not normal to have that happen sometimes? All my life, I have that happen occasionally. I’ve always been under the assumption that everybody sometimes has that. Is that not the case? Isn’t that where the saying “are your ears ringing?” comes from?

[TCB]

9 minutes ago, KSera said:

Is it not normal to have that happen sometimes? All my life, I have that happen occasionally. I’ve always been under the assumption that everybody sometimes has that. Is that not the case? Isn’t that where the saying “are your ears ringing?” comes from?

It is normal I think but she did say it was extremely loud. Then there’s the fact that there’s so much being said about these vaccines that it’s hard to keep it all in perspective. I absolutely believe in scrutiny and want all the side effects to be known so people can make informed decisions. But social media seems to magnify certain things, even if they are relatively rare, or even just a normal occurrence in the population. It’s hard to sort through all the information and misinformation. It sometimes seems that there is almost an agenda in the way information about possible side effects is shared. People trying to justify their position I guess.

I should add that I absolutely think these vaccines, especially the mRNA ones, are very safe and effective. It’s a little more difficult to sort through things though, when thinking about a young person, with lower risks.

[Laura Corin]

6 hours ago, JennyD said:

In the last few weeks I have been to two different doctors, the dentist, and had a life insurance physical/interview.  All did some sort of Covid symptom screening, but -- to my utter bafflement -- none of them asked about my vaccine status.   If you're worried that patients might have covid, surely the #1 thing you'd want to know is if and when they've been vaccinated?

As vaccine efficacy is not 100 percent,  and people also lie - there's no official certification yet in Scotland  - the question wouldn't necessarily help my physio to assess his risk in treating each patient. 

[Doug4907]

Unfortunately, in Australia, people are behaving as if all danger has passed.  As I have said before nearly all Aussies are offered ONLY the AZ vaccine, so even those that have been vaccinated have little immunity to the Sth African and probably the Brazilian variants.  Our controlled borders, intensive contract tracing, and the occasional rapid, short lockdowns have served us well, but community fatigue with the virus news is telling on some.

Our states have done all the control in spite of the lead from our Federal government.

The  B.1.1.248 and the B.1.351 both have the same mutation.  Are they the same?

A question for you good people:  Do you have results from any study on the effectiveness of the AZ for the Brazilian variant, (B.1.1.248)?

[Doug4907]

😁  I just notice my status.  "Hive Mind Larvae"!  I guess you are labelling me a maggot?

I am just joking, and laughing.  Thank you for tolerating me.

Take care,

Doug

[ieta_cassiopeia]

18 hours ago, Not_a_Number said:

If you go by the totally ridiculous CFR of 20% from a year ago (which was OBVIOUSLY not the IFR back then, either), then I can see how it seems less risky now, lol. 

Whereas I always figured the IFR was about a percent and it still is, and that's what seems scary to me. (And for me personally the IFR is obviously much less. And that was obvious a year ago, too.) 

The IFR probably was higher then than now, but not necessarily double-figures percent, because viruses often get weaker as they mutate for increased transmissibility (turns out, viruses can't be good at everything at once due to overloading the virus' energy-stealing capacity, so if they are going to infect targets with less energy to steal, they have to remove some of their other elements).

 

The other complicating factor (that's beginning to be a factor again in some places) is hospital overloading. That causes deaths that are technically due to COVID-19 but actually due to healthcare that might have been taken for granted in other times in a given place not being available.

[ieta_cassiopeia]

12 hours ago, TCB said:

I haven’t kept up with this thread too well the last few days so can anyone tell me if there was any further info on the 1/3 of vaccinated people experiencing tinnitus?

My dd 17 is scheduled for her 2nd shot tomorrow. A few days after the first one she had a couple of seconds of very loud ringing in one ear. I would love to know more about this. I’m weighing up the pros and cons for her going ahead with it. She hasn’t gotten Covid this whole time so I would love her not to get it. Our whole family has been very careful to not pose a risk to vulnerable people so that is also a pro, with the information coming out about much reduced risk of transmission with vaccination. Also, my family lives overseas so all of us being vaccinated fully is likely to make travel easier. However, she is very low risk for serious complications of Covid, and has received one dose so I wonder if it would be better to wait on the second.

I would really appreciate any further information about this if anyone knows of any. I can’t remember who mentioned it, but maybe they have links.

1 in 14700 people have reported tinnitus (new or aggravated) after receiving Pfizer, Moderna or OxfordAstrazeneca in the UK (no mention of breakdowns between those vaccines) since vaccines for COVID-19 began to arrive.

1 in 7 reported tinnitus after receiving COVID-19 in the UK.

COVID-19 appears a bigger risk for tinnitus than any of the officially recommended preventative measures for it.

 

Also, it looks like OxfordAstrazeneca is effective against P.1 (Brazil), possibly has some of the additional mutations have more to do with the B.1.1.7 (Kent) variant which OxfordAstrazeneca is also successful at defending against, than the B.1.351 (South African) variant which OxfordAstrazeneca is famously not. Exact numbers for B.1.1.7/P.1, as well as the one I'm particularly worried about at this point (B.1.526 India) for which I've heard the dreaded words "partial vaccine escape", have not yet arrived.

Edited May 10, 2021 by ieta_cassiopeia

[Not_a_Number]

2 hours ago, ieta_cassiopeia said:

The IFR probably was higher then than now, but not necessarily double-figures percent, because viruses often get weaker as they mutate for increased transmissibility (turns out, viruses can't be good at everything at once due to overloading the virus' energy-stealing capacity, so if they are going to infect targets with less energy to steal, they have to remove some of their other elements).

I know that this happens, but I haven't seen anyone actually observe this with this virus. So I wouldn't assume it. 

 

2 hours ago, ieta_cassiopeia said:

The other complicating factor (that's beginning to be a factor again in some places) is hospital overloading. That causes deaths that are technically due to COVID-19 but actually due to healthcare that might have been taken for granted in other times in a given place not being available.

Sure. That was happening before and is still happening now. 

[Pen]

On 5/8/2021 at 8:42 AM, ktgrok said:

If you are saying that it is not disproven that the spike protein produced by the body of a vaccinated person might be breathed out, then breathed back in by a different person, and then it cause infertility in that person. sure. It is also not disproven that getting the vaccine can make you reverse age and turn into benjamin button. But it is not a valid concern, either, given the bounds of science. 

If someone said they are not going to get vaccinated because they want to be sure it doesn't make their dog turn into a cat, and we haven't disproven that theory yet....well, I can be concerned about them, but I'm not going to take that concern seriously. 

There are a lot of concerns I truly do take seriously, especially autoimmune reactions. I am not one who says vaccines can't cause harm. But at some point the concerns are nonsensical. That a vaccinated person is going to transmit infertility to people around them falls into that category. 

I suggest you - or rather not u but perhaps someone  else who might someday read this and who is actually serious and concerned about potential problems rather than flippantly dismissive of anything that does not agree with their views - Look up syncytin and spike resemblance 

[Drama Llama]

6 minutes ago, Pen said:

I suggest you - or rather not u but perhaps someone  else who might someday read this and who is actually serious and concerned about potential problems rather than flippantly dismissive of anything that does not agree with their views - Look up syncytin and spike resemblance 

https://www.reuters.com/article/uk-factcheck-syncytin/fact-check-available-mrna-vaccines-do-not-target-syncytin-1-a-protein-vital-to-successful-pregnancies-idUSKBN2A42S7

 

 

Edited May 10, 2021 by ...
Broken link

[TCB]

5 hours ago, ieta_cassiopeia said:

1 in 14700 people have reported tinnitus (new or aggravated) after receiving Pfizer, Moderna or OxfordAstrazeneca in the UK (no mention of breakdowns between those vaccines) since vaccines for COVID-19 began to arrive.

1 in 7 reported tinnitus after receiving COVID-19 in the UK.

COVID-19 appears a bigger risk for tinnitus than any of the officially recommended preventative measures for it.

 

Also, it looks like OxfordAstrazeneca is effective against P.1 (Brazil), possibly has some of the additional mutations have more to do with the B.1.1.7 (Kent) variant which OxfordAstrazeneca is also successful at defending against, than the B.1.351 (South African) variant which OxfordAstrazeneca is famously not. Exact numbers for B.1.1.7/P.1, as well as the one I'm particularly worried about at this point (B.1.526 India) for which I've heard the dreaded words "partial vaccine escape", have not yet arrived.

Thank you so much for the links! I really appreciated reading some calm, no drama information.

[TCB]

41 minutes ago, ... said:

https://www.reuters.com/article/uk-factcheck-syncytin/fact-check-available-mrna-vaccines-do-not-target-syncytin-1-a-protein-vital-to-successful-pregnancies-idUSKBN2A42S7

 

 

Using your post as a jumping off point - even if it were true - which from what I’ve researched it does not appear to be - why would forming antibodies to the spike protein from the vaccine be a problem, but forming antibodies to the spike protein of the virus is not? It just seems illogical to me. It’s like wave after wave of illogical stuff is thrown out there, gets answered or refuted, simply slips out of the narrative and then the next thing is thrown out there. What is the point of doing this. 
I feel really frustrated by it all. By all means let’s look at real possible side effects and find out all we can. But this is like a certain part of the human race is working their butts off to deal with the virus and find answers, and another part is throwing out whatever obstacle they can to make it even harder. What is the motivation? I say again, I’m all for logical, real questioning, but it almost seems like an endless stream of attempted gotchas and to what end? 🤷‍♀️

[JennyD]

9 hours ago, Laura Corin said:

As vaccine efficacy is not 100 percent,  and people also lie - there's no official certification yet in Scotland  - the question wouldn't necessarily help my physio to assess his risk in treating each patient. 

Of course it's not 100%.  And people can lie, just like they can lie about about their symptoms.  But if you're going to use self-reported screening measures to evaluate risk, you should absolutely ask about vaccination status!  It's the most important risk factor there is.

 

Edited May 10, 2021 by JennyD

[Penelope]

17 hours ago, JennyD said:

In the last few weeks I have been to two different doctors, the dentist, and had a life insurance physical/interview.  All did some sort of Covid symptom screening, but -- to my utter bafflement -- none of them asked about my vaccine status.   If you're worried that patients might have covid, surely the #1 thing you'd want to know is if and when they've been vaccinated?

The life insurance interview was especially mystifying.  Several questions along the lines of, "In recent months, have you had substantial weight loss, chills, night sweats, or unexplained skin lesions?"  But no questions about whether I have been vaccinated against the #1 cause of death in the US RIGHT NOW.  I realize that insurance companies move slowly, but come on. 

2 hours ago, Pen said:

 

For life insurance, I’d guess it’s much more about long term risks. And going forward, Covid isn’t going to be as much of a problem. Maybe still an issue, but in the future not enough of one to merit it’s own large category of deaths.

Covid isn’t the #1 cause of death. It was #3 in 2020. I don’t know about early 2021, but it might be even further down by the end of 2021, since we have seen the worst of it already.

Total US deaths have been at or below the number of expected deaths since some time in March of this year, for some states earlier and a few a little later. Covid is a small fraction of those total deaths (from CDC website). 
 

As to why the doctor and dentist don’t ask, I guess because the relevant question is whether you have symptoms. If you do, you need a test, and it doesn’t matter whether you had the vaccine or not. One of the offices I go to still asks about whether I have traveled, just like they did last March when the question was really obliquely about China or Italy. That one I don’t get. 

Edited May 10, 2021 by Penelope

[Drama Llama]

1 hour ago, Penelope said:

 

Total US deaths have been at or below the number of expected deaths since some time in March of this year, for some states earlier and a few a little later. Covid is a small fraction of those total deaths (from CDC website). 

My understanding is that death statistics are reported over time.  It's too early to draw any conclusions from death statistics from March and April because the information collected is still incomplete.  

Hopefully, when the numbers settle they will be lower.  

[Laura Corin]

15 minutes ago, Dreamergal said:

Can someone please help with data about the  efficacy of the Astra Zeneca first and second doses ? How long after the first dose is there protection ? Full protection how long after the second dose ?

Thanks

Protection against symptomatic Covid, or against severe symptoms or death?

[ktgrok]

On 5/10/2021 at 9:44 AM, Pen said:

I suggest you - or rather not u but perhaps someone  else who might someday read this and who is actually serious and concerned about potential problems rather than flippantly dismissive of anything that does not agree with their views - Look up syncytin and spike resemblance 

I'm not flippantly dismissive - I DID look up the syncrytin claim....weeks (months?) ago when it first arose, and found it totally unfounded. I didn't dismiss it out of hand, I looked it up, read about it, and realized it wasn't actually something I needed to be concerned about. 

Some of these concerns were debunked a while ago. 

[Laura Corin]

11 minutes ago, Dreamergal said:

Everything if you can. How is it different with asymptomatic, severe and death percentage wise ?  Is it different with age, pre-existing conditions ? Does gender make a difference in efficacy ?

Keep hearing about deaths and positive cases among the vaccinated for Astra Zeneca.

Opinion | Barkha Dutt: I lost my father to covid-19 — and my faith in India’s government to protect our people - The Washington Post

This death because he had the first shot, was due to get the second shot  and became sick enough to need hospitalization and oxygenation. He was 84. I did not know vaccinated people could still get sick like needing hospitalization after a first dose. 

Anecdotally from friends in their 50s, one woman with two shots complete and had pre-existing conditions. Not sure how long after second shot. Another woman who got second shot and in two days tested positive, no pre-existing conditions and 50s. I asked and doctors in my family said taking the vaccine does not make a person test positive. Both had symptoms which they first thought as vaccine symptoms as it was close to the second shot. 

The government has posted quarantine notices on both their doors and asked them to isolate. COVID test was triggered because the government has someone come home and check temperature every day. If someone has a temp they come and test the family.  Their husbands who are both vaccinated tested negative.

 

This is the latest real world data about infections two weeks after the first jab.

https://www.reuters.com/world/asia-pacific/skorea-says-astrazeneca-pfizer-covid-19-vaccines-87-effective-after-first-shot-2021-05-05/

This is about deaths, but I  can't see how long after the doses for effectiveness. 

https://www.reuters.com/world/uk/english-data-shows-single-dose-az-covid-19-vaccine-gives-80-lower-risk-death-2021-05-10/

Eta very old people often have weakened immune systems which unfortunately don't build antibodies so well.

Edited May 11, 2021 by Laura Corin

[SKL]

Just wanted to say I personally know at least 2 people in India who were fully vaccinated and then got Covid, badly enough to be really sick.  (Ages - around 30 with pre-existing conditions; around 60 in good health.)  These are two biologically unrelated people in the same extended (immunized) family.  So far.

I have serious doubts about the effectiveness of whatever vaccines they are using there.  Anyone know if they have Pfizer/Moderna or will get them soon?

[ktgrok]

1 hour ago, SKL said:

Just wanted to say I personally know at least 2 people in India who were fully vaccinated and then got Covid, badly enough to be really sick.  (Ages - around 30 with pre-existing conditions; around 60 in good health.)  These are two biologically unrelated people in the same extended (immunized) family.  So far.

I have serious doubts about the effectiveness of whatever vaccines they are using there.  Anyone know if they have Pfizer/Moderna or will get them soon?

No, they have Astra Zeneca under a dfferent name, which is not effective against at least one of the variants, and another that at best is 80% effective. So we will be seeing breakthrough. The best they can do is hope to vaccinate as many as possible. 80% is decent coverage IF most of the people you are around are vaccinated as well. But if you are around a high viral load, you will see cases. 

[Not_a_Number]

1 hour ago, SKL said:

Just wanted to say I personally know at least 2 people in India who were fully vaccinated and then got Covid, badly enough to be really sick.  (Ages - around 30 with pre-existing conditions; around 60 in good health.)  These are two biologically unrelated people in the same extended (immunized) family.  So far.

I have serious doubts about the effectiveness of whatever vaccines they are using there.  Anyone know if they have Pfizer/Moderna or will get them soon?

That sucks. That being said, it’s probably the case that they might have gotten even sicker without the vaccine... at least, assuming it’s at least protective against severe cases??

[Penelope]

It isn’t true that Astra Zeneca isn’t effective against variants. It may not totally stop infection because it may not fully  neutralize the virus, but that isn’t the same thing as ineffective. It can prevent severe illness and death. Nearly all of the T-cell epitopes are preserved, even against B1351. 

Edited May 12, 2021 by Penelope

[Penelope]

On 5/10/2021 at 1:19 PM, BaseballandHockey said:

My understanding is that death statistics are reported over time.  It's too early to draw any conclusions from death statistics from March and April because the information collected is still incomplete.  

Hopefully, when the numbers settle they will be lower.  

That’s true, it’s not final yet, just as some of the daily deaths reported are actually backfill and occurred on earlier days of weeks. But there has been an obvious, steady and hopeful downward trend. 

I understand why some people perceive that Covid is the #1 cause of death, but it never has been and is far from that now. It’s because the news outlets don’t pos daily and weekly  death counts for anything else, or regularly compare other deaths to world wars and other terrible events. 
Wouldn’t that be depressing, if they did? Not that we shouldn’t pay attention to Covid, but a little perspective is helpful. 

[Not_a_Number]

7 minutes ago, Penelope said:

I understand why some people perceive that Covid is the #1 cause of death, but it never has been and is far from that now. It’s because the news outlets don’t pos daily and weekly  death counts for anything else, or regularly compare other deaths to world wars and other terrible events. 
Wouldn’t that be depressing, if they did? Not that we shouldn’t pay attention to Covid, but a little perspective is helpful. 

I think it can temporarily be in a given place. It was the number one cause of death in NY for a few weeks.

Looking at the data, it is definitely one of the leading causes of death in 2020, right after cancer and heart disease.

[ktgrok]

40 minutes ago, Penelope said:

It isn’t true that Astra Zeneca isn’t effective against variants. It may not totally stop infection because it may not fully  neutralize the virus, but that isn’t the same thing as ineffective. It can prevent severe illness and death. Nearly all of the T-cell epitopes are preserved, even against B1351. 

I should have clarified - significantly less effective. If it is only 10% effective for mild and moderate illness I would not think it would be super effective against severe illness...but I don't have those numbers.

"Two doses of the AstraZeneca Covid-19 vaccine were found to have only a 10.4% efficacy against mild-to-moderate infections caused by the B.1.351 South Africa variant, according to a phase 1b-2 clinical trial published on Tuesday in the New England Journal of Medicine."

https://www.forbes.com/sites/williamhaseltine/2021/03/17/astrazeneca-vaccine-fails-to-protect-against-the-south-african-variant/?sh=79da95746526

[YaelAldrich]

Guess my 15 yo daughter is the first one here to get her vaccine!  My vaccine angel got her an appointment tonight at 8:30pm at Walgreens at 7:49pm.  We hauled tushy to get there.  

We got there and the pharmacist told us (and two other eager beaver parents with 15 year olds) she didn't know she could do the vaccination.  She called management while the White father next to me called corporate and my vaccine angel called another pharmacy.  After about 15 minutes both my friend and the pharmacist got the go ahead.  We were third in line!  

 

All done and good to go!

[frogger]

9 hours ago, Penelope said:

That’s true, it’s not final yet, just as some of the daily deaths reported are actually backfill and occurred on earlier days of weeks. But there has been an obvious, steady and hopeful downward trend. 

I understand why some people perceive that Covid is the #1 cause of death, but it never has been and is far from that now. It’s because the news outlets don’t pos daily and weekly  death counts for anything else, or regularly compare other deaths to world wars and other terrible events. 
Wouldn’t that be depressing, if they did? Not that we shouldn’t pay attention to Covid, but a little perspective is helpful. 

Can you imagine if heart disease and cancer were contagious? That would be crazy.

[Matryoshka]

10 hours ago, Penelope said:

I understand why some people perceive that Covid is the #1 cause of death, but it never has been and is far from that now. It’s because the news outlets don’t pos daily and weekly  death counts for anything else, or regularly compare other deaths to world wars and other terrible events. 
Wouldn’t that be depressing, if they did? Not that we shouldn’t pay attention to Covid, but a little perspective is helpful. 

Okay, here's some perspective.

US deaths in World War 1 (1917-18)  116,516 (58,258 per year) 

US deaths in World War 2 (1941-45)    405,399  (81,079 per year)

US deaths in Vietnam War (1965-75)   58,220  (5822 per year)

US deaths from Covid, in just ONE year   583,000  

Yep you're right.  Comparing this to deaths in world wars makes it look much better.  Thanks for the perspective.

[ieta_cassiopeia]

The India variant now has a solid foothold in mainland Britain. A lot of people have been vaccinated with OxfordAstrazeneca (which, considering there is partial vaccine escape for that specific variant, is a problem), but a lot of others have been vaccinated with Pfizer (including most of the over-80s not in care homes, for sheer distribution reasons). It would not surprise me if the reopening stage due for next week turns out to be quite short.

 

Apparently, adults are more likely to have mild/moderate side effects if they mix vaccine doses (e.g. OxfordAstrazeneca dose #1 and Pfizer dose #2) than if they have two of the same type (regardless of the type of vaccine involved).

[klmama]

On 5/10/2021 at 3:45 AM, ieta_cassiopeia said:

1 in 14700 people have reported tinnitus (new or aggravated) after receiving Pfizer, Moderna or OxfordAstrazeneca in the UK (no mention of breakdowns between those vaccines) since vaccines for COVID-19 began to arrive.

1 in 7 reported tinnitus after receiving COVID-19 in the UK.

COVID-19 appears a bigger risk for tinnitus than any of the officially recommended preventative measures for it.

I called my ENT's office to set up an appointment for tinnitus/hearing eval, and they asked if onset corresponded with a viral infection or vaccination.  That's new since the last time I went. Tinnitus and hearing loss may not be on the list of side effects commonly discussed here in the US, but they should be.  It's frustrating to have to count on UK info to get a clearer picture.

Edited May 13, 2021 by klmama

[Laura Corin]

1 hour ago, ieta_cassiopeia said:

The India variant now has a solid foothold in mainland Britain. A lot of people have been vaccinated with OxfordAstrazeneca (which, considering there is partial vaccine escape for that specific variant, is a problem), but a lot of others have been vaccinated with Pfizer (including most of the over-80s not in care homes, for sheer distribution reasons). It would not surprise me if the reopening stage due for next week turns out to be quite short.

 

Apparently, adults are more likely to have mild/moderate side effects if they mix vaccine doses (e.g. OxfordAstrazeneca dose #1 and Pfizer dose #2) than if they have two of the same type (regardless of the type of vaccine involved).

Yes. I can't see the opening up continuing for long. I can also see mix and match happening for people who have had one AZ but not the second.

[ScoutTN]

On 5/8/2021 at 9:12 PM, lynn said:

We know more about transmission.  No longer have to go directionally in grocery stores.  No longer feel he need to wipe down groceries with Clorox wipes.  Stores here are selling excess sanitizer and masks for next to nothing.  No longer need to text the doctors office when you arrive and wait outside until your room is ready.  Signs  changed from masks required to masks recommended.  Festivals and races are taking place.  No longer get taking temperatures when you enter buildings. Libraries are fully open again.

Some of those protocols are still in place here. Masks required in my city, orthodontist, dentist and several docs still have everyone wait in the car, still taking temps to enter many schools and other facilities.

[ktgrok]

On 5/10/2021 at 4:45 AM, ieta_cassiopeia said:

1 in 7 reported tinnitus after receiving COVID-19 in the UK.

 

To clarify - that stat was for the Covid 19 illness, not the vaccine. Making instance of tinnitus MUCH MUCH MUCH higher than with the vaccine. 1 in 14,700 vs 1 in 7.

I think maybe that is what you were trying to point out, but the wording of "receiving" makes it look like you mean the vaccine rather than the illness.

From the link:

Professor Kevin Munro and PhD researcher Ibrahim Almufarrij found 56 studies that identified an association between Covid-19 and auditory and vestibular problems. They pooled data from 24 of the studies to estimate that the prevalence of hearing loss was 7.6%, tinnitus was 14.8% and vertigo was 7.2%. 

Edited May 13, 2021 by ktgrok

[ieta_cassiopeia]

5 minutes ago, ktgrok said:

To clarify - that stat was for the Covid 19 illness, not the vaccine. Making instance of tinnitus MUCH MUCH MUCH higher than with the vaccine. 1 in 14,700 vs 1 in 7.

I think maybe that is what you were trying to point out, but the wording of "receiving" makes it look like you mean the vaccine rather than the illness.

Given I stated "1 in 14700 people have reported tinnitus (new or aggravated) after receiving Pfizer, Moderna or OxfordAstrazeneca in the UK" immediately above the "1 in 7" stat you quoted, it didn't occur to me that anyone would read the 1 in 14700 and 1 in 7 stats as being for the same event. (Especially since none of the vaccines includes live COVID-19 virus).

[ktgrok]

15 minutes ago, ieta_cassiopeia said:

Given I stated "1 in 14700 people have reported tinnitus (new or aggravated) after receiving Pfizer, Moderna or OxfordAstrazeneca in the UK" immediately above the "1 in 7" stat you quoted, it didn't occur to me that anyone would read the 1 in 14700 and 1 in 7 stats as being for the same event. (Especially since none of the vaccines includes live COVID-19 virus).

I didn't think you meant it as the same, but when I first read it, I did think so - that it was two differnt studies but both about vaccine because of the word "received". Just clarifying - in case others are speed reading or not caffeinated yet 🙂

[Penelope]

15 hours ago, Matryoshka said:

Okay, here's some perspective.

US deaths in World War 1 (1917-18)  116,516 (58,258 per year) 

US deaths in World War 2 (1941-45)    405,399  (81,079 per year)

US deaths in Vietnam War (1965-75)   58,220  (5822 per year)

US deaths from Covid, in just ONE year   583,000  

Yep you're right.  Comparing this to deaths in world wars makes it look much better.  Thanks for the perspective.

That isn’t what I said. 

I said, no one is comparing the deaths caused by smoking each year, or the deaths from any other cause, to 9/11 or a war. The comparisons to wars with Covid just never made sense to me anyway. It’s fairly meaningless, done for attention, headlines and clicks. Apples to oranges, deaths of entire generations of young men from violence compared to an infectious disease that hits every age and sex, skewing older. How about comparison to other pandemics? 
 

Sure, Covid is plenty bad. It’s the worst plague of our generation (let’s hope it’s the worst). 

 

 

 

Edited May 13, 2021 by Penelope

[Penelope]

On 5/12/2021 at 1:25 PM, ktgrok said:

I should have clarified - significantly less effective. If it is only 10% effective for mild and moderate illness I would not think it would be super effective against severe illness...but I don't have those numbers.

"Two doses of the AstraZeneca Covid-19 vaccine were found to have only a 10.4% efficacy against mild-to-moderate infections caused by the B.1.351 South Africa variant, according to a phase 1b-2 clinical trial published on Tuesday in the New England Journal of Medicine."

https://www.forbes.com/sites/williamhaseltine/2021/03/17/astrazeneca-vaccine-fails-to-protect-against-the-south-african-variant/?sh=79da95746526

Yeah, that study looks like bad news, no doubt about it. What I read is the idea that this was a very small study, that there is real world data that looks better, and that there are other suggestions that AZ would have some benefit against this variant.
 

There are lab studies on T cells, and there was one study that showed that one dose of AZ after natural infection was superior against B.1.351 compared to two doses of Pfizer in people without previous infection. (To me, that could also just mean that natural infection is better than any vaccine against certain variants, because it gives immunity to more parts of the virus than vaccines do, but I’ve seen this study promoted as suggestive that AZ must have some benefit). 
 

I shouldn’t have said it’s wrong to say it’s ineffective, because it all depends on how “effective” is defined. 

It’s odd that Johnson and Johnson was over 50% effective in South Africa in their trial, but AZ would be worse than that even though it’s a similar vaccine. Maybe it is, but I wonder why that would be. 

Edited May 13, 2021 by Penelope

[Penelope]

16 hours ago, frogger said:

Can you imagine if heart disease and cancer were contagious? That would be crazy.

Digression, but since you brought it up.

Some cancers are caused by viruses that are contagious (HPV), or made highly likely by previous viral infection (HIV, Hepatitis viruses). 
 

And some think some other health conditions might be. 🙂

https://nationalpost.com/health/heart-disease-contagious-study-suggests-non-communicable-diseases-might-be-spread-through-gut-bacteria

But I think that some of these health problems are contagious in a different sort of way that doesn’t warrant the same sort of control measures as those for an infectious disease, but maybe some careful thought and attention. Heart disease is largely a lifestyle disease, and many cancers are affected by lifestyle, so there is an element of social contagion when we talk about behaviors and risk factors for these diseases. 
 

https://www.webmd.com/diet/news/20070725/is-obesity-contagious#1

Social determinants of health: 

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2015/08/150804093926.htm

https://www.heart.org/en/news/2020/12/03/heart-disease-stroke-more-deadly-in-socially-vulnerable-counties

And social isolation is a well-known risk factor for some diseases. 
https://www.indiawest.com/news/global_indian/social-isolation-during-pandemic-can-lead-to-heart-disease-stroke-and-depression-says-indian-american/article_7ee51af8-b1ae-11ea-9419-9b89742c635f.html

[Matryoshka]

56 minutes ago, Penelope said:

That isn’t what I said. 

I said, no one is comparing the deaths caused by smoking each year, or the deaths from any other cause, to 9/11 or a war. The comparisons to wars with Covid just never made sense to me anyway. It’s fairly meaningless, done for attention, headlines and clicks. Apples to oranges, deaths of entire generations of young men from violence compared to an infectious disease that hits every age and sex, skewing older. How about comparison to other pandemics? 
 

Sure, Covid is plenty bad. It’s the worst plague of our generation (let’s hope it’s the worst). 
 

Uh, I literally highlighted the part in your original comment where you said no one was comparing it to deaths from world wars, so you most certainly did say that.  That wasn't my idea of a reasonable comparison.  Comparisons to all non-contagious things (accidents, smoking, heart disease, cancer) are also stupid, imho, so I'm also confused as to why you're saying 'no one's comparing those!'

As to your new bolded part, the worst pandemic of modern times was the influenza pandemic of 1918.  It killed 675,000 in the US over two years - and there was no vaccine, nor antibiotics to quell secondary infections.    If we didn't have antibiotics or hadn't come up with a vaccine so fast, this disease would have killed at least that many already - that third wave was already taking off when the vaccines finally started flattening things here.   In countries where the vaccine hasn't rolled out and/or there's a collapse of the health infrastructure this thing is still far from over.

Yes, the bubonic plague was worse.  The various European diseases that devastated the Native American population was worse.  What are you trying to say with this?   That because those were worse, we should just all settle down?  

[Penelope]

On 5/12/2021 at 1:00 PM, Penelope said:

 

I understand why some people perceive that Covid is the #1 cause of death, but it never has been and is far from that now. It’s because the news outlets don’t pos daily and weekly  death counts for anything else, or regularly compare other deaths to world wars and other terrible events. 
Wouldn’t that be depressing, if they did? Not that we shouldn’t pay attention to Covid, but a little perspective is helpful. 

 

2 hours ago, Matryoshka said:

Uh, I literally highlighted the part in your original comment where you said no one was comparing it to deaths from world wars, so you most certainly did say that.  That wasn't my idea of a reasonable comparison.  Comparisons to all non-contagious things (accidents, smoking, heart disease, cancer) are also stupid, imho, so I'm also confused as to why you're saying 'no one's comparing those!'

As to your new bolded part, the worst pandemic of modern times was the influenza pandemic of 1918.  It killed 675,000 in the US over two years - and there was no vaccine, nor antibiotics to quell secondary infections.    If we didn't have antibiotics or hadn't come up with a vaccine so fast, this disease would have killed at least that many already - that third wave was already taking off when the vaccines finally started flattening things here.   In countries where the vaccine hasn't rolled out and/or there's a collapse of the health infrastructure this thing is still far from over.

Yes, the bubonic plague was worse.  The various European diseases that devastated the Native American population was worse.  What are you trying to say with this?   That because those were worse, we should just all settle down?  

You misread my post. I said that no one was comparing deaths from other causes to world wars, as was done ad nauseum with Covid. Maybe you didn’t happen to see all those headlines after every Covid death milestone that was passed, but that is what I was referring to.

Proportional to population, I believe the 1918 pandemic was worse, but as you say, that isn’t a great comparison, either, because we did not have the same level of health care then, and data collection may not have been as good then. Covid would have been worse back then, and although the age difference in those stricken is profound compared with 1918 flu, more young people would probably have died from Covid back then, too. 
 

I think you are reading things into my post, and you keep stating I said things when I actually repeatedly said the opposite. 

Message boards are funny. Threads are long, and we pick up on things from particular posts without following the thread within the thread. Originally I was answering a post that said Covid is the number one cause of death, and then, why a lot of people might have that perception. That’s all. If I thought we should all settle down and that Covid doesn’t matter, I probably wouldn’t still be reading about vaccinations and infections and posting on threads like this. 😆 
But I don’t know why it should be offensive to say that if you just look at the numbers, it isn’t currently the top concern the average person should have for their health, either. One concern among others. 

 

 

Edited May 13, 2021 by Penelope

[Matryoshka]

1 minute ago, Penelope said:

But I don’t know why it should be offensive to say that if you just look at the numbers, it isn’t currently the top concern the average person should have for their health, either. One concern among others. 

The top two causes of death, as you say, are heart disease and cancer.  No, I am not even remotely concerned about those slow-moving lifestyle and genetic diseases compared to picking up a contagious disease spread through the air that can kill within a week or two.  Not even a little.

[Laura Corin]

BBC News - Covid vaccines have saved 11,700 lives and 33,000 hospital admissions
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-57102422

The one-shot estimates are interesting. 

Edited May 14, 2021 by Laura Corin

[Doug4907]

12 hours ago, Penelope said:

Yeah, that study looks like bad news, no doubt about it. What I read is the idea that this was a very small study, that there is real world data that looks better, and that there are other suggestions that AZ would have some benefit against this variant.
 

There are lab studies on T cells, and there was one study that showed that one dose of AZ after natural infection was superior against B.1.351 compared to two doses of Pfizer in people without previous infection. (To me, that could also just mean that natural infection is better than any vaccine against certain variants, because it gives immunity to more parts of the virus than vaccines do, but I’ve seen this study promoted as suggestive that AZ must have some benefit). 
 

I shouldn’t have said it’s wrong to say it’s ineffective, because it all depends on how “effective” is defined. 

It’s odd that Johnson and Johnson was over 50% effective in South Africa in their trial, but AZ would be worse than that even though it’s a similar vaccine. Maybe it is, but I wonder why that would be. 

Yes Penelope, it is bad news for Australians who only have access to the AZ vaccine, because of a gov decision.

For clarity, the Sth African research research, which was a small sample, showed that the AZ vaccine had no beneficial effect in preventing mild to moderate infection from the B.1.351 variant.  The study was not relevant to severe infection only because in the total study there were no severe infections.  ref: https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa2102214

A similar article https://www.news-medical.net/news/20210321/ChAdOx1-nCoV-19-vaccine-does-not-protect-against-South-African-SARS-CoV-2-variant.aspx , comments "The results of a double-blind, randomized, multisite placebo-controlled trial that was conducted in South Africa show that Oxford’s ChAdOx1 nCoV19 (AZD1222) vaccine has no efficacy against the B.1.351 variant in preventing mild-to-moderate coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID19), and shows reduced
neutralization properties of developed antibodies."

Though it is a small-scale study it is particularly alarming to me, as the Aus gov prevents me accessing any alternative vaccine, I am old, have weak lungs, and a simple cold virus inevitably lands me in hospital for two weeks on oxygen, sometimes in a critical condition.  At home, I live connected to an oxygen concentrator.  I have never smoked (anything); I have asbestosis.

Just like the UK variant, the Sth African variant has spread to numerous countries.  In Aus it is regularly detected in citizens returning from overseas, however our strict quarantining has so far stopped that variant from being locally transmitted.  But like the US and elsewhere the controls are slowly being lifted.  There has been zero mention of the risk by our Gov-employed medical representatives.

Pen, anyone, are there better studies of AZ and 351?

Take care everyone,

Doug

[pinball]

On 5/13/2021 at 12:11 AM, Matryoshka said:

Okay, here's some perspective.

US deaths in World War 1 (1917-18)  116,516 (58,258 per year) 

US deaths in World War 2 (1941-45)    405,399  (81,079 per year)

US deaths in Vietnam War (1965-75)   58,220  (5822 per year)

US deaths from Covid, in just ONE year   583,000  

Yep you're right.  Comparing this to deaths in world wars makes it look much better.  Thanks for the perspective.

United States in ww ii

For US deaths in WW II, I am assuming you took a KIA number and divided by 5.

that is really not accurate. We lost approximately 350 merchant marines in 1940 and 1941, and about 2400 people in Pearl Harbor. This was before war was declared, technically. 

So then after, Pearl Harbor, formal war was declared in dec 41.

VJ day was 8/15/45 but formal surrender 9/2/45 (6 years 1 day after Hitler invaded Poland)

in effect, U.S. was in war for approx. 3 years 8 months... so that KIA number per year is higher than what you got.

i didn’t look at your other war numbers

 

 

[Lucy the Valiant]

Excellent news continuing to emerge for durability of immunity following natural infection showing as strong (or stronger) than vaccine (in this case Pfizer). 

Prior SARS-CoV-2 infection and Pfizer-BioNTech’s COVID-19 vaccine provide similar immunity

 

[Matryoshka]

3 hours ago, pinball said:

United States in ww ii

For US deaths in WW II, I am assuming you took a KIA number and divided by 5.

that is really not accurate. We lost approximately 350 merchant marines in 1940 and 1941, and about 2400 people in Pearl Harbor. This was before war was declared, technically. 

So then after, Pearl Harbor, formal war was declared in dec 41.

VJ day was 8/15/45 but formal surrender 9/2/45 (6 years 1 day after Hitler invaded Poland)

in effect, U.S. was in war for approx. 3 years 8 months... so that KIA number per year is higher than what you got.

i didn’t look at your other war numbers

No, that's not the combat death number; that's only about half of that number (2K something) No idea if it includes Pearl Harbor, but I have no idea how a few thousand more deaths changes a comparison thats off by year by an order of magnitude and anyway apples/oranges (again, not my idea to throw these numbers in the mix, responding to another poster implying we don't compare these... like if we did it would make the Covid numbers less startling). 

My point was: it doesn't, and it's a silly comparison anyway (which to answer the poster who asked is why no one is making it).  Ballpark numbers are fine to make that point.

[pinball]

57 minutes ago, Matryoshka said:

No, that's not the combat death number; that's only about half of that number (2K something) No idea if it includes Pearl Harbor, but I have no idea how a few thousand more deaths changes a comparison thats off by year by an order of magnitude and anyway apples/oranges (again, not my idea to throw these numbers in the mix, responding to another poster implying we don't compare these... like if we did it would make the Covid numbers less startling). 

My point was: it doesn't, and it's a silly comparison anyway (which to answer the poster who asked is why no one is making it).  Ballpark numbers are fine to make that point.

MY point is that we did not fight in the Second World War for 5 years. 

Since you wrote “409355 (81079 per year)” I am assuming you divided 409355 by 5. 

Whether you use battle deaths OR battle deaths plus other deaths in service,  the US only fought from Dec 1941 to Aug 1945, plus like I said some deaths from merchant mariners before Dec 41...

3 years 8 months-ISH

[Pen]

On 5/10/2021 at 7:42 AM, TCB said:

Using your post as a jumping off point - even if it were true - which from what I’ve researched it does not appear to be - why would forming antibodies to the spike protein from the vaccine be a problem, but forming antibodies to the spike protein of the virus is not? It just seems illogical to me. It’s like wave after wave of illogical stuff is thrown out there, gets answered or refuted, simply slips out of the narrative and then the next thing is thrown out there. What is the point of doing this. 
I feel really frustrated by it all. By all means let’s look at real possible side effects and find out all we can. But this is like a certain part of the human race is working their butts off to deal with the virus and find answers, and another part is throwing out whatever obstacle they can to make it even harder. What is the motivation? I say again, I’m all for logical, real questioning, but it almost seems like an endless stream of attempted gotchas and to what end? 🤷‍♀️

This sounds almost like a genuine logical, real question itself? 

 

Send me a PM if you are actually open to a different view than your own.

 

 

[gardenmom5]

On 5/9/2021 at 3:34 PM, JennyD said:

In the last few weeks I have been to two different doctors, the dentist, and had a life insurance physical/interview.  All did some sort of Covid symptom screening, but -- to my utter bafflement -- none of them asked about my vaccine status.   If you're worried that patients might have covid, surely the #1 thing you'd want to know is if and when they've been vaccinated?

The life insurance interview was especially mystifying.  Several questions along the lines of, "In recent months, have you had substantial weight loss, chills, night sweats, or unexplained skin lesions?"  But no questions about whether I have been vaccinated against the #1 cause of death in the US RIGHT NOW.  I realize that insurance companies move slowly, but come on. 

You can still get covid even if you're fully vaccinated.   If so, recovery is usually much faster, and symptoms are less.  Since you can still get it - it makes sense they would ask about symptoms.

and people can have an active covid infection, and not have any symptoms.  (a couple friends right now.)