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33 minutes ago, Melissa Louise said:

Ugh, I just read Canada has paused their AZ rollout. So rude of the news to report on this the day after my vaccine. Hoping very much not to get a blood clot. 

Best wishes, as one AZ to another.  This side effect, if it is caused by the vaccine, is exceedingly rare.  Worth the tiny possible risk, to me.

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I’m getting the Pfizer vaccine on Monday! I’m prepping myself for some side effects, so am glad I’ll have a few days to recover before Christmas.

My health care provider called me today and said my turn has come to get the vaccine and I'd be able to get my first shot of Moderna on Monday. I literally broke into tears of joy.  Bill

My dd works at a grocery store and people have actually shared their positive test results as she's bagging their groceries, as in, "I tested positive 3 days ago." More than once.

Kind of related to some discussion upthread: Nate Silver posed a question on twitter yesterday that I thought was interesting. When we say 95% effective, is it that 5% of people won't develop immunity or that even if people develop antibodies there are some exposures that will break through that immunity anyway? I had assumed the former, but I realized I really have no idea. And that it's an important thing to know, since if it's the former it makes sense to do lots of testing for antibodies and give boosters to people who haven't developed them for whatever reason, whereas if it's the latter it makes more sense for everyone to continue taking more precautions longer. Or maybe it's a combination of the two? 

 

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22 minutes ago, kokotg said:

Kind of related to some discussion upthread: Nate Silver posed a question on twitter yesterday that I thought was interesting. When we say 95% effective, is it that 5% of people won't develop immunity or that even if people develop antibodies there are some exposures that will break through that immunity anyway? I had assumed the former, but I realized I really have no idea. And that it's an important thing to know, since if it's the former it makes sense to do lots of testing for antibodies and give boosters to people who haven't developed them for whatever reason, whereas if it's the latter it makes more sense for everyone to continue taking more precautions longer. Or maybe it's a combination of the two? 

 

I am curious about that too.  I heard on the news yesterday that they are now seeing that the protection is against contracting the virus. I think before we were being told it was to reduce the seriousness of the infection.

And also, heard this morning that long haulers who get the vaccine are reporting a lifting of their long term symptoms.

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Just now, Scarlett said:

And also, heard this morning that long haulers who get the vaccine are reporting a lifting of their long term symptoms.

I think I’ve now seen two examples of the opposite effect on the board, so it can apparently go either way 😕 .

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6 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

I think I’ve now seen two examples of the opposite effect on the board, so it can apparently go either way 😕 .

Yes the report I heard said it is about 40% seeing improvement. So clearly not conclusive.  

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7 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

I think I’ve now seen two examples of the opposite effect on the board, so it can apparently go either way 😕 .

Yeah they really don't know yet.  I think the theory is that if bits of the virus are hanging around and causing long haul symptoms then the vaccine could help get rid of the virus.    But if long haul symptoms are autoimmune in nature then not as sure if it will help or hurt. 

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1 hour ago, kokotg said:

Or maybe it's a combination of the two? 

I assume it's a combination. We know that some people don't develop immunity for even "one and done" illnesses like chicken pox. I know someone that would get chicken pox every time she was exposed. 

The good news is that the stats on serious illness are good, and the stats on death are excellent. I don't remember which rates are compared, but some of the stats on the Covid vaccines are better than we have for other vaccines. As hesitant as people are to rely totally on them for protection in a pandemic, they are very robust vaccines in the grand scheme of things.

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5 hours ago, Melissa Louise said:

Ugh, I just read Canada has paused their AZ rollout. So rude of the news to report on this the day after my vaccine. Hoping very much not to get a blood clot. 

(ETA:  I agree, Rude!! )

I think that's more about optics and politics and, as everyone's favourite pandemic phrase goes,  "an abundance of caution", than it is about real risk mitigation.

Nearly one million Canadians have had Covid (population 35 million).  1 in 35 (so far).

22 000 have died of it = 6 in 10 000 of all Canadians.

AZ is thought to cause a very rare specific type of blood clot at a rate of between 1 per million and one per 100 000.

One's chance of getting covid and getting very ill from it or having long-term effects from it are much higher than the risk of this rare complication - this is almost certainly true on a population level.

For perspective, birth control pills increase risk of blood clotting (venous thromboembolism) 3-5 fold - absolute numbers 0.06 per 100-pill-years (or 6 per 10 000 women on the pill per year), from a baseline risk of about 0.01- 0.02per 100 women per year, or 1-2 per 10 000 w-p-y).  These are clotting risks that millions of women accept.

Pregnancy increases clotting risk a lot more than birth control pills do:  Pregnancy is 0.2 per 100 woman-years (20 per 10 000).  Postpartum 0.6 per 100 w-y or (65 per 10 000)

So BCP's can be seen as an example of accepting a small risk to avoid a bigger  risk.   Similar to covid vax, though with covid vax the risks are much, much lower for an arguably bigger payoff.

 

 

 

Edited by wathe
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3 minutes ago, wathe said:

I think that's more about optics and politics and, as everyone's favourite pandemic phrase goes,  "an abundance of caution", than it is about real risk mitigation.

Nearly one million Canadians have had Covid (population 35 million).  1 in 35 (so far).

22 000 have died of it = 6 in 10 000 of all Canadians.

AZ is thought to cause a very rare specific type of blood clot at a rate of between 1 per million and one per 100 000.

One's chance of getting covid and getting very ill from it or having long-term effects from it are much higher than the risk of this rare complication - this is almost certainly true on a population level.

For perspective, birth control pills increase risk of blood clotting (venous thromboembolism) 3-5 fold - absolute numbers 0.06 per 100-pill-years (or 6 per 10 000 women on the pill per year), from a baseline risk of about 0.01- 0.02per 100 p-y, or 1-2 per 10 000 p-y).  These are clotting risks that millions of women accept.

Pregnancy increases clotting risk a lot more than birth control pills do:  Pregnancy is 0.2 per 100 woman-years (20 per 10 000).  Postpartum 0.6 per 100 w-y or (65 per 10 000)

So BCP's can be seen as an example of accepting a small risk to avoid a bigger  risk.   Similar to covid vax, though with covid vax the risks are much, much lower for an arguably bigger payoff.

ETA: if my under 55 family members were offered a dose of AZ today (instead of waiting until eligibility in JULY) they would take it, no hesitation.

 

 

 

ETA: if my under 55 family members were offered a dose of AZ today (instead of waiting until eligibility in JULY) they would take it, no hesitation.

Edited by wathe
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24 minutes ago, kbutton said:

I assume it's a combination. We know that some people don't develop immunity for even "one and done" illnesses like chicken pox. I know someone that would get chicken pox every time she was exposed. 

The good news is that the stats on serious illness are good, and the stats on death are excellent. I don't remember which rates are compared, but some of the stats on the Covid vaccines are better than we have for other vaccines. As hesitant as people are to rely totally on them for protection in a pandemic, they are very robust vaccines in the grand scheme of things.

Yeah, on a population-wide level it probably doesn't matter much since 95% is so good. On a personal level, though, I definitely want to know if I have antibodies (my NP offered to test for me when I was in for blood work 9 days post shot #1, but no luck yet. I'll check again a couple of weeks after #2).

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To add clarity to the Canadian situation:

We've suspended AZ only for those under 55.

My province just opened its 70+ tier yesterday.  The only under 70's getting vaxxed are special at-risk populations.

Most of our vaccine is going into 70+ year old arms anyway.  So suspending AZ for under 55's doesn't make a lot of practical difference in our role-out; it was a politically easy decision to make.

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20 minutes ago, kokotg said:

Yeah, on a population-wide level it probably doesn't matter much since 95% is so good. On a personal level, though, I definitely want to know if I have antibodies (my NP offered to test for me when I was in for blood work 9 days post shot #1, but no luck yet. I'll check again a couple of weeks after #2).

Hopefully they are looking at the right thing.

My understanding is that the mRNA vaccines do not produce antibodies that look like you have actually caught COVID-19.  But they still protect against the disease.  So I'm more than a month past my 2nd vaccination but I gave blood and am still coming back negative antibodies. It doesn't mean the vaccine didn't take.

 

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5 minutes ago, vonfirmath said:

Hopefully they are looking at the right thing.

My understanding is that the mRNA vaccines do not produce antibodies that look like you have actually caught COVID-19.  But they still protect against the disease.  So I'm more than a month past my 2nd vaccination but I gave blood and am still coming back negative antibodies. It doesn't mean the vaccine didn't take.

 

I  wondered about that, but my mom goes to the same NP and hers came back positive for antibodies (no reason to suspect she's ever had covid), and the NP herself had the same experience. I assumed it was a different test, but then when I saw the actual lab results there was no indication that it was.

ETA: different test from the one to test for antibodies post covid, that is

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1 hour ago, kand said:

There are a bunch of links out there about this, but basically yes, the antibody test to see if you have had Covid test for something different than the antibodies produced in response to the vaccine: https://www.local10.com/health/2021/03/17/confusion-over-covid-19-antibody-testing-and-vaccines/

Okay, I went and looked at the lab results again after reading that, and it looks like she did order the "spike test" they reference. There are a bunch of letters that mean nothing to me, but then it says, "This assay detects antibodies against SARS-CoV-2 spike protein including the receptor binding domain (RBD)."

ETA: so when I said there was no indication it was a different test I guess what I should have said was, "I have no idea what I'm looking at when I read the lab results" 😂

Edited by kokotg
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15 hours ago, Melissa Louise said:

Ugh, I just read Canada has paused their AZ rollout. So rude of the news to report on this the day after my vaccine. Hoping very much not to get a blood clot. 

The report said to look out for headaches between day four and twenty but it’s very treatable if caught early and also so rare.  I think you’ll be ok.

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15 hours ago, Melissa Louise said:

Ugh, I just read Canada has paused their AZ rollout. So rude of the news to report on this the day after my vaccine. Hoping very much not to get a blood clot. 

Paused on under 55. So in my province being offered in the large urban areas for those between 55-65, weighting risk factor of blood clot from Covid much greater than risk of blood clot from AZ.

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Came to report this to so excited.  Hopeful ODD can get her shot before starting High school- we start relatively late here.  MDD will be in that group to but she will still be doing university model so less worry.  That will just leave the tiny tot.  

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Has anyone seen information on the vaccine and liver function?  As I’ve mentioned before I recently suffered drug induced liver injury (most likely from antibiotics).  They have postponed my second shot by a week, for more recovery, but I’m interested in seeing any research.  Anyone recall anything?

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45 minutes ago, Spryte said:

Has anyone seen information on the vaccine and liver function?  As I’ve mentioned before I recently suffered drug induced liver injury (most likely from antibiotics).  They have postponed my second shot by a week, for more recovery, but I’m interested in seeing any research.  Anyone recall anything?

I'm interested, too.  I don't have anywhere near the issues you do but I have had elevated liver enzymes for quite a while.  

 

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45 minutes ago, Spryte said:

Has anyone seen information on the vaccine and liver function?  As I’ve mentioned before I recently suffered drug induced liver injury (most likely from antibiotics).  They have postponed my second shot by a week, for more recovery, but I’m interested in seeing any research.  Anyone recall anything?

Found these - some on vaccination in general, one on Covid specifically. Basically, liver disease may mean you don't get as good of protection from a vaccine, but i've seen nothing that indicates it would be dangerous. 

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/23250700/

https://britishlivertrust.org.uk/update-for-people-with-liver-disease-on-the-covid-19-vaccine/

https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/adults/rec-vac/health-conditions/liver-disease.html

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49 minutes ago, Spryte said:

Has anyone seen information on the vaccine and liver function?  As I’ve mentioned before I recently suffered drug induced liver injury (most likely from antibiotics).  They have postponed my second shot by a week, for more recovery, but I’m interested in seeing any research.  Anyone recall anything?

I haven't seen any info, but FWIW--DH has elevated liver enzymes due to the cancer medications he's on. That's been going on for four years now, with various levels of elevation and even occasionally dipping down into the upper levels of normal. His oncologist strongly encouraged him to get the Covid vaccine ASAP. 

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1 hour ago, Spryte said:

Has anyone seen information on the vaccine and liver function?  As I’ve mentioned before I recently suffered drug induced liver injury (most likely from antibiotics).  They have postponed my second shot by a week, for more recovery, but I’m interested in seeing any research.  Anyone recall anything?

Guidance document from UHN, one of my nearest tertiary care centers

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14 hours ago, mommyoffive said:

In some ways I think the most important news in that article is that Pfizer is ready to file for full approval, which I assume the FDA will want to process as expeditiously as possible. Hopefully that may alleviate some of the hesitancy, although obviously FDA approval isn't going to convince everyone. But at least the refusers will no longer have the excuse that it's "only an EUA and not full approval." I assume that Moderna is not far behind, and J&J should be there within a month or two. Once the vaccines have full FDA approval, colleges are absolutely within their rights to require it for attendance, just like they require other vaccines. 

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This is probably a stupid question, but I'm going to ask anyway.  Are we going to be locked into the type of vaccine we had (Pfizer, Moderna, J & J) with regards to the booster shots?  We are getting Pfizer next week so would we only be able to take a Pfizer booster?

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I'll be fully vaccinated mid-April, so effectiveness will be lessening right around the start of the new school year (eek). Are we assuming we'll all get boosters in the fall?

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8 minutes ago, Kanin said:

I'll be fully vaccinated mid-April, so effectiveness will be lessening right around the start of the new school year (eek). Are we assuming we'll all get boosters in the fall?

I hope so! 

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8 minutes ago, Kanin said:

I'll be fully vaccinated mid-April, so effectiveness will be lessening right around the start of the new school year (eek). Are we assuming we'll all get boosters in the fall?

Do we know effectiveness wanes then?

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I read the article but not any study. My understanding is they know 6 months is still 90+% effective. In three more months, they'll know how effective it is at 9 months. In six months [from now] they'll have a one year number, etc.

Three months ago, they were able to say "After 3 months, it is still effective." I think the jury is still out [on long-term effectiveness].

I suspect booster shots will be most important for the fight against variants & to protect the most vulnerable.

Edited by RootAnn
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38 minutes ago, Kanin said:

I'll be fully vaccinated mid-April, so effectiveness will be lessening right around the start of the new school year (eek). Are we assuming we'll all get boosters in the fall?

It's at least 6 months, not only 6 months. They just don't have the data beyond that yet...will take more time. 6 months is the furthest out they have data on so far. 

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1 hour ago, mlktwins said:

This is probably a stupid question, but I'm going to ask anyway.  Are we going to be locked into the type of vaccine we had (Pfizer, Moderna, J & J) with regards to the booster shots?  We are getting Pfizer next week so would we only be able to take a Pfizer booster?

On current data, the initial course of two should be the same vaccine. Trials are happening right now to see if mix and match might produce a better immune response.

It's possible that boosters might need to be of a different vaccine - the side effects might increase with a third mRNA jab, and there's concern that a third adenovirus vaccine dose might lead to the immune system to start reacting to the vector rather than to the Coronavirus element.

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31 minutes ago, RootAnn said:

I read the article but not any study. My understanding is they know 6 months is still 90+% effective. In three more months, they'll know how effective it is at 9 months. In six months [from now] they'll have a one year number, etc.

Three months ago, they were able to say "After 3 months, it is still effective." I think the jury is still out [on long-term effectiveness].

I suspect booster shots will be most important for the fight against variants & to protect the most vulnerable.

Oh, right. My brain was only running on ONE cup of coffee - not sufficient! 

I read an article that said the antibodies were so high at 6 months, they're hopeful the immunity may even last for years. That would be wonderful!

Feeling happier this morning than I have in a while. 

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1 hour ago, Kanin said:

I'll be fully vaccinated mid-April, so effectiveness will be lessening right around the start of the new school year (eek). Are we assuming we'll all get boosters in the fall?

I'm assuming the six-month effectiveness statement is because that is how far out we are from the testing, not that it will necessarily start diminishing at that time. They just don't have data for further out than that. I could be wrong...

ETA: Sorry, I hadn't read further where several others had already stated this.

Edited by Jaybee
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DH and I got dates for our first vaccine dose. It is a site with either Pfizer or Moderna. Finally !  I felt so stupid later, but felt emotional getting the text/email. It's real and it's happening.

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15 minutes ago, Dreamergal said:

DH and I got dates for our first vaccine dose. It is a site with either Pfizer or Moderna. Finally !  I felt so stupid later, but felt emotional getting the text/email. It's real and it's happening.

I know how you feel!  For me, though, it felt a bit unreal up until I got the shot (last Tuesday).  It  is very exciting.  I'm so glad you'll get to visit your family overseas!

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