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Thanks, all.  I’m trying to put on a supportive happy face for her, but it’s really a bummer.

We will try again as soon as we can get another appointment.  I’ll call this one a practice run.

I do think I will try harder for a drive up location for her, and that will help her anxiety.  

 

 

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I’m getting the Pfizer vaccine on Monday! I’m prepping myself for some side effects, so am glad I’ll have a few days to recover before Christmas.

My health care provider called me today and said my turn has come to get the vaccine and I'd be able to get my first shot of Moderna on Monday. I literally broke into tears of joy.  Bill

My dd works at a grocery store and people have actually shared their positive test results as she's bagging their groceries, as in, "I tested positive 3 days ago." More than once.

On 2/27/2021 at 3:09 PM, Kassia said:

Great news about your mom!  

So you wouldn't feel comfortable going in her home once she's fully vaccinated?  I'm asking because I'm really confused about risks in that case - my MIL is fully (as of last week) and I don't know what the next step is as far as seeing her if we are not vaccinated.  One benefit before this was having the best excuse not to see her!  

Our compromise when we saw my parents yesterday for the first time since this started was we masked indoors, but not outdoors unless right up against each other. So masked when reading my DD3 a book in her lap but not while we chatted spread out on the patio.  When we are all vaccinated (right now it is just my parents) we will drop the masks is my assumption. 

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The current CDC Morbidity and Mortality Weekly Report discusses 5 cases in a Kentucky nursing home where residents were reinfected in October after having had asymptomatic (3) or very mild (2) infections in July. All five had multiple negative PCR tests between outbreaks, so they believe these were all reinfections. The second infection was more severe in all five patients, and one died. 😞 

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8 minutes ago, Corraleno said:

The current CDC Morbidity and Mortality Weekly Report discusses 5 cases in a Kentucky nursing home where residents were reinfected in October after having had asymptomatic (3) or very mild (2) infections in July. All five had multiple negative PCR tests between outbreaks, so they believe these were all reinfections. The second infection was more severe in all five patients, and one died. 😞 

It looks as if they don't have an idea of variants, which  is a shame.

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10 hours ago, Laura Corin said:

This was ringing a bell for me of having read about this in the past and them having discovered it wasn’t a matter of the immune response in obese people, it’s that the standard needle length isn’t going deep enough to go into muscle instead of fat. I did a quick search and found this study verifying that: https://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/125/3/e508

I am thinking it’s likely the same needle size is used for everyone at these vaccine clinics? Though I don’t know. 

9 hours ago, Spryte said:

Quoting myself with an update: no shot. We got to the parking lot, and she had terrible GI issues and had to go home.  I think it’s an anxiety thing.

I’m so sad, and disappointed.  Hopefully someone else gets that shot.  

There are no appointments to reschedule her, so we are back to the waiting.  I could cry.

That’s so sad! I’m sorry. I hope you can get another soon and it goes much better. 

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20 minutes ago, Ausmumof3 said:

Yay!  Astra Zeneca is what many here will get so very glad to hear it works.

I'm not sure which of those two I'll get.  I'm not bothered.

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4 hours ago, kand said:

This was ringing a bell for me of having read about this in the past and them having discovered it wasn’t a matter of the immune response in obese people, it’s that the standard needle length isn’t going deep enough to go into muscle instead of fat. I did a quick search and found this study verifying that: https://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/125/3/e508

I am thinking it’s likely the same needle size is used for everyone at these vaccine clinics? Though I don’t know. 

That’s so sad! I’m sorry. I hope you can get another soon and it goes much better. 

Same needle for everyone at the clinics I've worked.

ETA: weight/BMI are not documented either.

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I wasn’t sure which thread to put this in. In response to some other posts about the concern of long-term side effects from the Covid vaccine, I got to wondering if there are any vaccines which of had side effects that took years to show up, rather than showing up soon after vaccination. I found this interesting article from CHOP addressing this very question. https://www.chop.edu/news/long-term-side-effects-covid-19-vaccine
 

The bottom line in it, is that vaccine side effects usually show up very quickly, and even in the cases of vaccines that have caused a delayed reaction, that reaction happened on the time scale of weeks later. I think 8 weeks is the longest. Certainly well within the timeframe that these vaccines have been studied. I know some people have concerns that maybe it would be different with the mRNA vaccines, but the article also explains how and why the mRNA in the vaccine does not stay in the body for long. It is broken down and eliminated soon after it has done it’s job.

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2 hours ago, kand said:

The bottom line in it, is that vaccine side effects usually show up very quickly, and even in the cases of vaccines that have caused a delayed reaction, that reaction happened on the time scale of weeks later. I think 8 weeks is the longest.

I heard an interview with the vaccine scientist Paul Offit in which he said that same thing -- side effects show up in the first 6 weeks, max.  I was surprised to hear that, but as I've learned more about how vaccines actually work in the body it makes sense.  (He did note that side effects that appear quickly can of course have long-lasting consequences.)

 

 

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I am increasingly worried about the seeming lack of urgency in testing these vaccines in children.  The most optimistic timeline seems to be availability for 12+ by early fall, then under 12 in early 2022.

If every US adult who wants a vaccine can get one by May or June, however, I have to imagine that any vestigial mitigation efforts are finished by summertime.  So presumably the virus just runs rampant in children for another nine months while we wait for these vaccines to be tested?  It seems implausible that elementary school-aged children are going to be masking and distancing while the adult population rushes back to karaoke bars.

 I realize that children rarely get seriously ill from this virus, but I am really not comfortable just blowing this off as 'just another virus' for my elementary schooler quite yet.  I am optimistic that the vaccines will reduce transmission enough that those of us who have been vaccinated will be able to safely resume some outside activities come fall without worrying too much about bringing the virus home to DS10, but nothing is going to look even vaguely like 'normal' until all 5 of us have been vaccinated.

I keep reading that the standard practice is to test one age group, then drop down to test a younger group, and so on.  That seems like a good and ethical plan IF we were not in the middle of a pandemic.   As it stands, a large percentage of children is almost certainly going to contract the virus between summer 2021 and early 2022.  So, I don't know, maybe some out-of-the-box thinking here might be in order?  

 

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5 minutes ago, JennyD said:

I am increasingly worried about the seeming lack of urgency in testing these vaccines in children.  The most optimistic timeline seems to be availability for 12+ by early fall, then under 12 in early 2022.

If every US adult who wants a vaccine can get one by May or June, however, I have to imagine that any vestigial mitigation efforts are finished by summertime.  So presumably the virus just runs rampant in children for another nine months while we wait for these vaccines to be tested?  It seems implausible that elementary school-aged children are going to be masking and distancing while the adult population rushes back to karaoke bars.

 I realize that children rarely get seriously ill from this virus, but I am really not comfortable just blowing this off as 'just another virus' for my elementary schooler quite yet.  I am optimistic that the vaccines will reduce transmission enough that those of us who have been vaccinated will be able to safely resume some outside activities come fall without worrying too much about bringing the virus home to DS10, but nothing is going to look even vaguely like 'normal' until all 5 of us have been vaccinated.

I keep reading that the standard practice is to test one age group, then drop down to test a younger group, and so on.  That seems like a good and ethical plan IF we were not in the middle of a pandemic.   As it stands, a large percentage of children is almost certainly going to contract the virus between summer 2021 and early 2022.  So, I don't know, maybe some out-of-the-box thinking here might be in order?  

 

I've also read something, not sure if it's a valid concern, that says that if the virus is primarily spreading in children, it's likely that any new variants that spread widely will be those that spread more easily in children.  That's a scary thought.  

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14 minutes ago, JennyD said:

I realize that children rarely get seriously ill from this virus, but I am really not comfortable just blowing this off as 'just another virus' for my elementary schooler quite yet.  I am optimistic that the vaccines will reduce transmission enough that those of us who have been vaccinated will be able to safely resume some outside activities come fall without worrying too much about bringing the virus home to DS10, but nothing is going to look even vaguely like 'normal' until all 5 of us have been vaccinated.

Agreed. I have an 8 year old child who is very high risk for Covid complications due to medical issues. We’re able to get his older brother (16) vaccinated as well as ourselves, but neither he nor his middle siblings are able to get vaccinated, obviously. The child in question is being homeschooled this year, but he would really be better served in school because of his profound disability. I have a feeling it won’t be safe to send him back next year, either. :( 

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3 hours ago, JennyD said:

I keep reading that the standard practice is to test one age group, then drop down to test a younger group, and so on.  That seems like a good and ethical plan IF we were not in the middle of a pandemic.   As it stands, a large percentage of children is almost certainly going to contract the virus between summer 2021 and early 2022.  So, I don't know, maybe some out-of-the-box thinking here might be in order?  

 

On the other hand, if a vaccine regime that works and is safe for adults proves to either be ineffective, or unsafe, for children, it's an even bigger problem to give it to children in the middle of a pandemic than otherwise.

The testing is necessary, even if the slow pace is frustrating. (Though there's also the point that a lot of places may well have a vaccine with approval for children before all the adults in those places that want vaccine have received it. Having a pediatric vaccine approved today is only going to change things if enough vaccine exists in an area for children to get doses in the first place).

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1 hour ago, ieta_cassiopeia said:

On the other hand, if a vaccine regime that works and is safe for adults proves to either be ineffective, or unsafe, for children, it's an even bigger problem to give it to children in the middle of a pandemic than otherwise.

The testing is necessary, even if the slow pace is frustrating. (Though there's also the point that a lot of places may well have a vaccine with approval for children before all the adults in those places that want vaccine have received it. Having a pediatric vaccine approved today is only going to change things if enough vaccine exists in an area for children to get doses in the first place).

I think she meant more that we could be testing on various age groups at once at this point. 

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15 hours ago, JennyD said:

I keep reading that the standard practice is to test one age group, then drop down to test a younger group, and so on.  That seems like a good and ethical plan IF we were not in the middle of a pandemic.   As it stands, a large percentage of children is almost certainly going to contract the virus between summer 2021 and early 2022.  So, I don't know, maybe some out-of-the-box thinking here might be in order?  

 

PArt of the problem is getting parents to allow their children to be part of testing group. They had problems getting the 12-17 age group to sign up. It will be even harder for the younger group. I thought about signing up my 13 year old (he didn't want to do it). I'm uninterested in signing up my 9 year old.

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12 hours ago, ktgrok said:

I think she meant more that we could be testing on various age groups at once at this point. 

Yes.  Or at least discussing the possibility.  Or, if that's really not scientifically responsible, maybe figuring out an actual public health strategy for children in the coming months.  Because in the United States, I think we are essentially going to be looking at uncontrolled spread among children in between the time when every adult who wants a vaccine can get one (i.e. summer 2021) and the time when vaccines are available for children.   If the virus is truly not dangerous to children, maybe this isn't a big deal, in which case, there will be minimal demand for a vaccine anyway.  

I would just  like for us once in the history of this crisis to actually get ahead of an obvious and looming problem, you know?

1 hour ago, vonfirmath said:

PArt of the problem is getting parents to allow their children to be part of testing group. They had problems getting the 12-17 age group to sign up. It will be even harder for the younger group. I thought about signing up my 13 year old (he didn't want to do it). I'm uninterested in signing up my 9 year old.

Yes, i read that Moderna had trouble recruiting for its adolescent study.   I just signed up my 10yo for a child study planned here -- I really hope he gets picked to participate.

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My 17yo does not want the vaccine. He thinks he is invincible. Since he was exposed a couple of times and didn't get it (as far as we know), he "knows" he won't get it. Because he will be 18 soon, we don't feel comfortable forcing the issue, and we won't. But it is concerning. He has a hidden underlying condition that could make things worse if he gets it, and he knows that. It is possible (probable) that he has listened too much to the popular local idea that it's NBD, etc. Thankfully, the others in our present household will be glad to get it when their groups come up.

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Part of that, though, was that the study sites were very geographically limited. My teen would have signed up, happily, had there been a single site close enough to not require an overnight stay and a long drive. And I am in a city with a top pediatric research hospital which has been a pioneer in using mRNA cancer treatments, so we definitely have the facilities locally to do a branch of such a study. 

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Moderna was able to fill all the slots for it's adolescent study group. I had considered signing my 12 year old up for it when it was open, but it sounded like it was going to involve a lot of blood draws to check antibody levels, and he would have freaked out about that. 

I could have sworn I read that another vax maker just started enrolling for kids under 12, but I can't find the article now. I'll look later on. 

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My state is opening the vax priorities to pregnant women.

This concerns me.  Nobody knows the effects on developing humans.  Well, I guess it's not my issue, but does anyone else find this concerning?

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1 hour ago, SKL said:

does anyone else find this concerning?

No.  I am delighted that my state is also prioritizing pregnant women (and those in their households).   The risks associated with contracting Covid while pregnant seem to be much higher than any as-yet theoretical risk of the vaccine.  

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1 hour ago, SKL said:

My state is opening the vax priorities to pregnant women.

This concerns me.  Nobody knows the effects on developing humans.  Well, I guess it's not my issue, but does anyone else find this concerning?

I've made the decision to have my kid take an experimental med.  We didn't know the effect the medication would have on his developing body.  But we did know the effect his disease was having, and so we decided to take a gamble.

I see this vaccine in the same way.  We have lots of reasons to believe that the vaccine will be safe, based on other vaccines, and on the way mRNA works in people's bodies.  But the truth is that we don't really know.  However, we do know the impact that covid is having on pregnant women, and we do know that it's leading to outcomes like prenatal birth, prenatal oxygen deprivation, and maternal/child death.  The chances that the impact of the vaccine will be worse than are are very very low.  If I was pregnant, I would take the gamble, and I'd be glad that the FDA and state governments were giving me the option to make that choice for my own child and my own body.  

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I think we need an emergency authorization for at risk children.

I am comfortable letting my healthy kids encounter the virus. 
 

I think we are going to end up having to have a booster every year. 

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1 minute ago, Roadrunner said:

I am comfortable letting my healthy kids encounter the virus. 

I wish I felt that way. What I feel is that we have no clue what the long term outcomes for kids are. It's too new a virus. 

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10 hours ago, Dmmetler said:

Part of that, though, was that the study sites were very geographically limited. My teen would have signed up, happily, had there been a single site close enough to not require an overnight stay and a long drive. And I am in a city with a top pediatric research hospital which has been a pioneer in using mRNA cancer treatments, so we definitely have the facilities locally to do a branch of such a study. 

Same issue here. My oldest will be 12 in a few weeks, and I wish I could give him the choice of participating in a research study. I'm not sure what he would choose - he doesn't like shots and blood draws, but that might actually make it feel like a bigger sacrifice and therefore a greater contribution to the effort. But at this point we don't have that option because when last I looked there were no testing facilities within a 2-3 hour drive.

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Florida now has pharmacies and Walmart giving the vaccine to all preK-12 teachers regardless of age. The state run sites are not, they are basing it on age but the private places doing it decided to prioritize teachers. My sister got vaccinated! I'm so glad, she has asthma as does one of her kids. (she's a principal of a highschool)

 

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On 3/3/2021 at 4:23 PM, JennyD said:

 It seems implausible that elementary school-aged children are going to be masking and distancing while the adult population rushes back to karaoke bars.

 

I have never been to a karaoke bar and have always refused to play along when people had those karaoke machines at parties.

After a year of being at home....

I AM SO READY TO GO TO A KARAOKE BAR!! SIGN ME UP!

(agreeing about the testing on kids, though - hopefully that timeline can be moved up... but in the meantime, I'm gonna be at the karaoke bar in my imagination just waiting for the day to go in person and shock the socks off my entire family)

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6 hours ago, Laura Corin said:

ooh - perceived scarcity makes people more likely to buy something, (hello toilet paper) so maybe scarcity of vaccines will make people more likely to get one! I like that idea. 

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6 hours ago, Laura Corin said:

Whatever makes people get the vaccine I am all for.  I hope there are more FOMO things for people to make them get it.   Like they don't have to quarantine if they are exposed.  Getting into indoor events.  Getting to travel to other countries or on a cruise.  Only thing it needs to not have a backlash against people who can't get the the vaccine, like kids. 

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re annual COVID boosters

13 hours ago, Roadrunner said:

I think we need an emergency authorization for at risk children.

I am comfortable letting my healthy kids encounter the virus. 
 

I think we are going to end up having to have a booster every year. 

Perhaps so. And: here's my arm.  If that is what it takes to haul ourselves out from this miasma, Dayenu.

There've been a lot of lessons in the last year. Among them: Americans have very, very, very little endurance.  There have been REAL hardships and loss, and I am not referring to that. More the kvetching about inconveniences: not being able to get preferred % of milk, or to go to the nail salon, or that the price of chicken increased, or constraints on preferred vacations.

So we might have to get an annual booster. Shrug.

 

re teachers' eligibility

13 hours ago, ktgrok said:

Florida now has pharmacies and Walmart giving the vaccine to all preK-12 teachers regardless of age. The state run sites are not, they are basing it on age but the private places doing it decided to prioritize teachers. My sister got vaccinated! I'm so glad, she has asthma as does one of her kids. (she's a principal of a highschool)

This is due to Biden's decision earlier this week to use the federal pharmacy partnership program -- which has its own vaccine allocation, parallel but separate from the states' allocation -- to prioritize teachers whether or not the states are doing so. 

Until this decision, the pharmacies have followed whatever the state guidelines were. But starting next week, ALL participating pharmacies in ALL states will provide vaccine to public and private K-12 teachers.

(The communication of this, and the implications, seems to have been uneven thus far. It didn't affect CT since teachers already were eligible under state guidelines. But in my area it affects MA and NY, and the word seems not to have gotten out very well. If you are or know a teacher in any state, spread the word: sign up now for Walgreen / Walmart / CVS portals -- you have to do each one separately, and start trolling for appointments as of midnight on Sunday.)

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As much as I know the elderly need the vaccines, if we are going to keep teachers from quitting, this was the right call. Especially since kids won't be vaccinated for who knows how long. The grocery check out person will at least be in contact mostly with other adults, who are hopefuly going to be vaccinated in a few months. Teachers will be the ones left dealing with a totally unvaccinated population. 

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On 3/4/2021 at 3:10 AM, ktgrok said:

I think she meant more that we could be testing on various age groups at once at this point. 

I don't think the law allows that in all places; the younger the child, the more risks there are, especially when dosing modifications for teenagers are yet to be established.

(Edited as I realied from reading some other responses that American law does allow this).

Edited by ieta_cassiopeia
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Good thread on twitter re: J&J: 

I have a couple of concerns about J&J--one is whether it prevents long term covid effects, given how often those are seen with mild disease. The other is whether it's less effective at preventing transmission to unvaccinated people than the others (it seems like it would be given that it's less effective at preventing symptomatic illness at all, but I don't know if there's any official word on it). In Georgia the governor has said that all of our J&J supply will be reserved for teachers, and honestly, this seems like the WORST population to vaccinate with J&J, given that they'll be in contact with tons and tons of unvaccinated people in the short to medium term. There are the transmission concerns and also the fact that even mild illness wreaks havoc on schools because of staffing issues. And, yeah, also the fact--as this twitter thread points out--that how hard TPTB are pushing it as being just as good kind of smells like "you don't need to wear a mask!" from back in the spring, and it erodes trust.

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I think I'd have been inclined to reserve the J&J for people who were likely to have problems with making it to two appointments (that being its main strength over the other options the USA has approved), if I was going to reserve it for any particular population at all.

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1 hour ago, ktgrok said:

As much as I know the elderly need the vaccines, if we are going to keep teachers from quitting, this was the right call. Especially since kids won't be vaccinated for who knows how long. The grocery check out person will at least be in contact mostly with other adults, who are hopefuly going to be vaccinated in a few months. Teachers will be the ones left dealing with a totally unvaccinated population. 

Grocery store check out people are dealing with thousands and thousands of different customers day in and out including children who come super close to them during checkout. 
And unlike other privileged employees who have been sitting home since March (as in CA) and throwing demands, grocery employees (many with preexisting conditions) have been on their feet and in person working every single day of this pandemic. They also have families and I bet many are medically vulnerable.

I am done with this teacher adoration. 

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2 hours ago, Pam in CT said:

re annual COVID boosters

Perhaps so. And: here's my arm.  If that is what it takes to haul ourselves out from this miasma, Dayenu.

There've been a lot of lessons in the last year. Among them: Americans have very, very, very little endurance.  There have been REAL hardships and loss, and I am not referring to that. More the kvetching about inconveniences: not being able to get preferred % of milk, or to go to the nail salon, or that the price of chicken increased, or constraints on preferred vacations.

So we might have to get an annual booster. Shrug.

 

re teachers' eligibility

This is due to Biden's decision earlier this week to use the federal pharmacy partnership program -- which has its own vaccine allocation, parallel but separate from the states' allocation -- to prioritize teachers whether or not the states are doing so. 

Until this decision, the pharmacies have followed whatever the state guidelines were. But starting next week, ALL participating pharmacies in ALL states will provide vaccine to public and private K-12 teachers.

(The communication of this, and the implications, seems to have been uneven thus far. It didn't affect CT since teachers already were eligible under state guidelines. But in my area it affects MA and NY, and the word seems not to have gotten out very well. If you are or know a teacher in any state, spread the word: sign up now for Walgreen / Walmart / CVS portals -- you have to do each one separately, and start trolling for appointments as of midnight on Sunday.)

I think there is an unrealistic expectation among people that the pandemic will just end. Period. I think we need to figure out a way to live with this as we fight. We need a shift in thinking. There is enough data now to be able to resume life with modifications - install filters, improve air circulation, UV disinfect large concert halls, continue masking, using booster shots..... Instead I see our children’s orchestra just sitting and waiting for this pandemic to magically disappear. Our CC will be online again next Fall. We could have fundraisers to improve ventilation, created smaller groups, moved some things outside.... everybody is paralyzed here. 

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re "re-entry" challenges

2 minutes ago, Roadrunner said:

I think there is an unrealistic expectation among people that the pandemic will just end. Period. I think we need to figure out a way to live with this as we fight. We need a shift in thinking. There is enough data now to be able to resume life with modifications - install filters, improve air circulation, UV disinfect large concert halls, continue masking, using booster shots..... Instead I see our children’s orchestra just sitting and waiting for this pandemic to magically disappear. Our CC will be online again next Fall. We could have fundraisers to improve ventilation, created smaller groups, moved some things outside.... everybody is paralyzed here. 

I agree.  My extended family is *already* grappling with the phased aspect of re-entry -- the octogenarians are fully vaccinated; a handful of the middle-aged cohort is partially or fully vaccinated if their jobs have given them priority; and the younger generation is not.

So is it time for a full-family celebration of my youngest's high school graduation this spring (as we did for her siblings)? If not, can the subset who lives within 30-40 minutes meet up for an outdoor dining dinner? Can I stay over at my mother's apartment?  Can she stay here if my unvaccinated kids are home?  And even if I could convince *myself* that there's a line somewhere in that zone of uncertainty that *I'm* reasonably comfortable with... my aunt or my daughter will, inevitably, draw the line in a somewhat different place. We'd gotten pretty good at managing through the earlier stages of this. But now the lines are shifting week to week.

 

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1 hour ago, Roadrunner said:

Grocery store check out people are dealing with thousands and thousands of different customers day in and out including children who come super close to them during checkout. 
And unlike other privileged employees who have been sitting home since March (as in CA) and throwing demands, grocery employees (many with preexisting conditions) have been on their feet and in person working every single day of this pandemic. They also have families and I bet many are medically vulnerable.

I am done with this teacher adoration. 

Teachers in Florida where ktgrok is and in Georgia where I am and in many, many other places have been working in person since late summer/early fall. In much of my state, they've been doing it with no mask requirements and very few students wearing masks. The incidence rate for teachers in the counties with no mask mandates near me has often been as much as 8 or 9 times as high as for the general population of those counties. I certainly think grocery store employees should also be prioritized, but I am done with people pretending like there aren't many, many teachers who are and long have been at increased risk.

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