The Vaccine Thread

[ieta_cassiopeia]

36 minutes ago, Lanny said:

The web site of the largest newspaper in Cali, Colombia (El Pais) has an article this morning 30 January 2021. They will begin vaccinating people in Colombia on 20

February 2021. They have purchased vaccines from 6 different companies. Of those 6, if I need to get vaccinated the one from Jansen (spelling?) which is a Johnson and Johnson company is the only one that only requires one injection. That would be my first choice. The one from Pfizer requires storage at -70 or -80 Celcius which I see as a logictical problem and the one from Astra/Zeneca (UK company) apparently has serious production issues and the EU is suing Astra/Zaneca for non-compliance.  If there is only one injection with the Jansen vaccination that will save time and discomfort and possibly one adverse reacttion and not 2.

Yes. J&J single-dose performed well enough that the UK government is considering granting it approval to be used as a vaccine in the UK. I thought of you when I heard that because I agree that a single-dose vaccine is a very good thing for anyone with concerns about how their body will react to the vaccine (or who just plain has logistical difficulties, which for a lot of people will be the case).

The OxfordAstrazeneca issue is true, and the UK and EU are having a row with the company (and each other) about what is to be done about it.  Without going into too many details (given this is meant to be a non-political forum), there is a difference of opinion about what the various stipulations in the contracts mean in terms of who gets priority over the remaining stock, as well as whether the contracts have thus far been met to an equal extent. It's all a mess really, though given the cause was a factory in Belgium getting its capacity upgraded in a way that temporarily reduced its production capability, it should get solved.

[ktgrok]

On 1/29/2021 at 3:12 AM, Corraleno said:

The selfishness and arrogance of these people is just breathtaking:

"A millionaire Canadian couple who secretly travelled to a remote community to receive a coronavirus vaccine meant for vulnerable and elderly Indigenous residents may now face jail sentences for breaking public health rules.

Casino executive Rodney Baker and his wife, Ekaterina Baker, an actor, were widely condemned after it emerged that they had chartered a plane to a remote community in the Yukon territory, where they posed as local motel employees to receive the vaccine.

They were fined C$2,300 (US$1,800) for violating Yukon’s Civil Emergency Measures Act, but community leaders argued that the penalty would be insignificant for the wealthy couple: Baker resigned from his position as a casino executive on Sunday but records show he made a C$45.9m profit on stock options over the past 13 months.

Amid growing outrage, the Yukon community services minister announced on Wednesday that the couple’s tickets had been stayed and they had been served with a notice to appear in court. If convicted, they could serve up to six months in jail.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/jan/28/canada-couple-covid-vaccine-indigenous-people-jail-time

What fries my grits about this is that these type of wealthy people are the MOST able to follow precautions and just STAY HOME. He makes more money in a year from stock options than I will make in a few lifetimes - he has ZERO need to go to work. He can afford to have all groceries delivered with zero contact - by a personal shopper. Same with anything else. Can afford to have all staff tested, etc. Can buy the best masks possible, arrange private medical care in an open air setting or buy crazy air filters, etc. Meanwhile, they are taking doses for people living likely in multigenerational situations, having to work, etc. 

17 hours ago, mommyoffive said:

U.S. likely to start COVID-19 vaccination in children by late spring or early summer - Fauci (msn.com)

U.S. likely to start COVID-19 vaccination in children by late spring or early summer - Fauci

 

I am so excited!!!  I thought this was going to take a lot longer.  

I'm betting this is the age 12 and up trial? I'm having a hard time imagining he means younger that soon, but I'd like to . 

[mommyoffive]

1 hour ago, ktgrok said:

What fries my grits about this is that these type of wealthy people are the MOST able to follow precautions and just STAY HOME. He makes more money in a year from stock options than I will make in a few lifetimes - he has ZERO need to go to work. He can afford to have all groceries delivered with zero contact - by a personal shopper. Same with anything else. Can afford to have all staff tested, etc. Can buy the best masks possible, arrange private medical care in an open air setting or buy crazy air filters, etc. Meanwhile, they are taking doses for people living likely in multigenerational situations, having to work, etc. 

I'm betting this is the age 12 and up trial? I'm having a hard time imagining he means younger that soon, but I'd like to . 

I would guess that is what he means too?  I watched the meeting and he didn't say more about specific ages just that they would go in de-escalating age.  

[Shoeless]

1st Moderna shot down. It's been a few hours, and so far the only side effect was bursting into tears from relief. 😭 I have a slight headache, but that could be from the ugly-crying. ;)

[TCB]

Just saw on the BBC that antivax protesters shut down a vaccination clinic at a stadium for an hour.

What is wrong with people?! They say they don’t want to be made to have a vaccine, fair enough, but then they prevent people who are making the free choice to get one!

Edited to try and add link but couldn’t work out how to do it.

 

 

 

Edited January 31, 2021 by TCB

[Tenaj]

I know this was most probably coincidence but has there been any reports of kidney issues after the vaccine?   My mom received the Moderna first dose a week ago Friday. Over the weekend she began retaining fluid (gained 30-40 lbs) and ended up in ICU on Thursday.  They have determined she is in stage 4 renal failure.  This is a new thing for her so I'm just curious if this is a rare reaction.

 

 

[maize]

29 minutes ago, JanOH said:

I know this was most probably coincidence but has there been any reports of kidney issues after the vaccine?   My mom received the Moderna first dose a week ago Friday. Over the weekend she began retaining fluid (gained 30-40 lbs) and ended up in ICU on Thursday.  They have determined she is in stage 4 renal failure.  This is a new thing for her so I'm just curious if this is a rare reaction.

 

 

I am sorry your mom is going through this 😞

 

It isn't a reaction I have heard of. I did have a friend years ago who developed sudden kidney failure as a result of lupus, which is an autoimmune disease so it seems possible that a severe immune reaction could cause kidney failure. I don't know anything beyond that though.

Covid itself causes kidney failure in some, that has been my primary concern for my family member with chronic kidney disease.

[maize]

36 minutes ago, JanOH said:

 

 

 

Here is one review of vaccine associated kidney disease; it looks like it is rare but does sometimes happen:

 

https://www.sjkdt.org/article.asp?issn=1319-2442;year=2019;volume=30;issue=5;spage=1002;epage=1009;aulast=Patel

[popmom]

Apologies if this has been brought up already. There were some scientists in the EU concerned that the possibility of reproductive harm had not been ruled out regarding the vaccines. It had to do with a protein in the placenta. I understand that while no pregnant women were enrolled in the trials, several did become pregnant during. My question is what were/are the outcomes of those pregnancies? I can’t find anything that addresses that specifically. I can find plenty of theoretical ideas about why and how unlikely it is that the vaccine would cause problems with pregnancy, but no data saying x women became pregnant with x women going on to deliver healthy, full term infants. I’m looking for something along those lines.

 

Edited January 31, 2021 by popmom

[maize]

14 minutes ago, popmom said:

Apologies if this has been brought up already. There were some scientists in the EU concerned that the possibility of reproductive harm had not been ruled out regarding the vaccines. It had to do with a protein in the placenta. I understand that while no pregnant women were enrolled in the trials, several did become pregnant during. My question is what were/are the outcomes of those pregnancies? I can’t find anything that addresses that specifically. I can find plenty of theoretical ideas about why and how unlikely it is that the vaccine would cause problems with pregnancy, but no data saying x women became pregnant with x women going on to deliver healthy, full term infants. I’m looking for something along those lines.

 

I don't think the kind of data you are looking for will be available for awhile. The Pfizer stage three trial only started on July 27; any woman who became pregnant during the trial would not yet have reached full term.

 

We do have some evidence that pregnant women are at higher risk of severe illness and death from covid infection. Given that a viral infection has many more possible routes to cause harm to a pregnant woman or her fetus than a vaccine does, I believe that unless a woman who is pregnant or intends to become pregnant is very confident she can avoid infection (i.e. plans to quarantine herself and her household for the entire length of the pregnancy) getting vaccinated probably represents a lower risk than not getting vaccinated.

It's certainly not easy making decisions where data is severely limited. 

[maize]

Lots of pregnant women have already been vaccinated at this point, I know several healthcare workers for example who are pregnant and got the vaccine on the advice of their doctors. There will be more data on outcomes in the coming months but so far I don't see anything to make me concerned.

[Not_a_Number]

3 hours ago, JanOH said:

I know this was most probably coincidence but has there been any reports of kidney issues after the vaccine?   My mom received the Moderna first dose a week ago Friday. Over the weekend she began retaining fluid (gained 30-40 lbs) and ended up in ICU on Thursday.  They have determined she is in stage 4 renal failure.  This is a new thing for her so I'm just curious if this is a rare reaction.

 

 

Oh no 😞 . I’m really sorry to hear that. Please keep us updated.

[popmom]

1 minute ago, maize said:

Lots of pregnant women have already been vaccinated at this point, I know several healthcare workers for example who are pregnant and got the vaccine on the advice of their doctors. There will be more data on outcomes in the coming months but so far I don't see anything to make me concerned.

This is good to hear.

[mlktwins]

I am trying to catch up on all of this, but haven't been in a hurry since DH and I are not eligible yet.  My dad and my in-laws were eligible, but then our county ran out of vaccines.  Hard to keep track of what is going on anymore, but maybe they can get signed up soon.

But...and I am honestly not trying to make waves, I just have no one else really to talk to about this...is anyone concerned at all about getting the vaccine (either of the 2 being offered at the moment)?  How fast they came out, that people getting them now are really just a big trial, that Pfizer and Moderna will not be held labile for things that happen to people getting the shots, how long immunity really lasts, the new variants?  I have a relative, who works at a hospital, that is concerned about the new mRNA technology?  

Again, I really am not trying to stir the pot.  But...these are concerns of mine and I am overweight and probably would not do well if I got the virus.  I'm not anti-vax by any means as we (my teenage boys too) are all up to date on our shots and we get flu shot every year.

[Not_a_Number]

5 minutes ago, mlktwins said:

I am trying to catch up on all of this, but haven't been in a hurry since DH and I are not eligible yet.  My dad and my in-laws were eligible, but then our county ran out of vaccines.  Hard to keep track of what is going on anymore, but maybe they can get signed up soon.

But...and I am honestly not trying to make waves, I just have no one else really to talk to about this...is anyone concerned at all about getting the vaccine (either of the 2 being offered at the moment)?  How fast they came out, that people getting them now are really just a big trial, that Pfizer and Moderna will not be held labile for things that happen to people getting the shots, how long immunity really lasts, the new variants?  I have a relative, who works at a hospital, that is concerned about the new mRNA technology?  
 

This isn’t my favorite speed for vaccine development and observation, but I’m vastly less worried about the vaccine than the virus.

 

 

Quote

Again, I really am not trying to stir the pot.  But...these are concerns of mine and I am overweight and probably would not do well if I got the virus.  I'm not anti-vax by any means as we (my teenage boys too) are all up to date on our shots and we get flu shot every year.

To put it in perspective, it’s not that there are no risks with the vaccine... but for everyone of the age group on here, worrying about the vaccine is like spending a lot of time holding an umbrella while you walk under buildings to prevent a brick from falling on your head, but also choosing to drive drunk. Basically, it’s not that there’s no risk, but the risk is order of magnitudes smaller. You COULD be unlucky with the vaccine. You really could. Some people are. But your chances are better in the vaxxed group.

Edited January 31, 2021 by Not_a_Number

[Drama Llama]

DH got his first vaccination on 1/19, and is scheduled for a second dose in February.  

He's been on leave from work since the beginning of December 2019, first family/medical leave, and now bereavement leave.  Financially, it would be really good to have him back at work, and he's getting to the point where I think it's a good idea for his mental health as well. He works in a job where he interacts with unmasked members of the public, including people within 6 feet, and people who can not be expected to wear masks, and may have times when he also needs to be unmasked. So, he's definitely high risk for exposure to the virus. 

Given all that, I'd love more clarity on what people are whether people with the vaccine spread.  It seems like we don't know.   I would really like for my kids to still see their great grandfather, who will hopefully be vaccinated soon.  But if they spend time with him, is that safe for him, even after the vaccine?  If he spends time with them, and then with my SIL who is pregnant and doesn't plan to get the vaccine till the baby is born, or with my 8 year old niece with asthma is it safe for them?  

Plus, I'm still sorting out what I think the risks are for the family.  I've got hypertension (bad) but it's relatively well controlled with meds (good) and will probably get a vaccine soon because of my job (great), my 13 year old has asthma (bad), but it's almost 100% allergic (good), and he's otherwise very healthy.  My 10 year old has no medical needs, but having lost a 10 year old to a condition that has a lot in common with covid, I worry about him too. 

I feel like I need more information on how to guide our interactions, and make safe decisions.  What are other people deciding?

[Not_a_Number]

3 minutes ago, BaseballandHockey said:

Given all that, I'd love more clarity on what people are whether people with the vaccine spread.  It seems like we don't know.   I would really like for my kids to still see their great grandfather, who will hopefully be vaccinated soon.  But if they spend time with him, is that safe for him, even after the vaccine?  If he spends time with them, and then with my SIL who is pregnant and doesn't plan to get the vaccine till the baby is born, or with my 8 year old niece with asthma is it safe for them?  

I don't think we know about spread yet, unfortunately 😞 . 

 

3 minutes ago, BaseballandHockey said:

Plus, I'm still sorting out what I think the risks are for the family.  I've got hypertension (bad) but it's relatively well controlled with meds (good) and will probably get a vaccine soon because of my job (great), my 13 year old has asthma (bad), but it's almost 100% allergic (good), and he's otherwise very healthy.  My 10 year old has no medical needs, but having lost a 10 year old to a condition that has a lot in common with covid, I worry about him too. 

I think kids are generally not high risk for serious complications, even if there are some risk factors. 

 

3 minutes ago, BaseballandHockey said:

I feel like I need more information on how to guide our interactions, and make safe decisions.  What are other people deciding?

I'm currently trying to watch Israel's data to see what's going to happen there. I expect they'll know things soon. 

[JennyD]

55 minutes ago, mlktwins said:

is anyone concerned at all about getting the vaccine (either of the 2 being offered at the moment)?  How fast they came out, that people getting them now are really just a big trial, that Pfizer and Moderna will not be held labile for things that happen to people getting the shots, how long immunity really lasts, the new variants? 

Speaking only for myself:

(1) I am not at all concerned by how quickly the vaccines were developed.  The actual science behind them was decades in the making, and the core reason why they were able to be tested so much faster than is typical is because in the middle of a catastrophic pandemic phase 3 trials -- in which you vaccinate half the people then wait to see who gets sick -- get to their preset endpoints (X sick people in the control group) in months rather than years.  

(2) It's totally fair to describe us all as being in a trial, and I am quite sure that there will be some as-yet-unknown rare side effects of these vaccines.  All things being equal I would MUCH rather take a vaccine that has been around for years than one that is brand-new.  But significant medium-term (and potentially long-term) side effects of covid do not seem rare at all, and so I am way more afraid of the virus than I am about the vaccine.

(If I had to put money down on it, I would bet that in the coming years we are going to learn that these mRNA vaccines are actually quite a bit safer than our current vaccine technologies, but of course we don't know that yet.)

(3) I am extremely bothered by the lack of corporate liability, and I am even more bothered by the fact that taxpayers are paying for the development of these vaccines while the intellectual property is owned by the pharmaceutical companies, and don't get me started about stock holdings and conflicts of interests.  I have a lot of opinions about corporate oversight and its relationship to a healthy democracy, actually.  None of them change my feelings about the vaccines themselves, however.   

(4) Scientists seem to be fairly optimistic about the duration of immunity generally, and everything I have read so far suggests that the vaccines reliably provoke more robust immunity than natural infection, so I would again prefer the vaccine to potentially catching the virus.

(5) I am super worried about these variants and am concerned by the preliminary signs that the vaccines we have will not be as effective against these variants as they have been shown to be against (in the words of one scientist i read) 'coronavirus classic.'   I desperately hope that we can speed up our vaccination program enough to get ahead of this problem.  But again, the vaccines obviously offer quite a lot of protection, and even a less-effective vaccine is dramatically better than a totally naive immune system.

So, in conclusion, while i agree with you that there is a lot to worry about generally, I myself would crawl over broken glass to get vaccinated tomorrow if I could.

Edited January 31, 2021 by JennyD

[JennyD]

11 minutes ago, BaseballandHockey said:

Given all that, I'd love more clarity on what people are whether people with the vaccine spread.  It seems like we don't know.   I would really like for my kids to still see their great grandfather, who will hopefully be vaccinated soon.  But if they spend time with him, is that safe for him, even after the vaccine?  If he spends time with them, and then with my SIL who is pregnant and doesn't plan to get the vaccine till the baby is born, or with my 8 year old niece with asthma is it safe for them?  

I have been following this obsessively and from what i can tell so far, things look promising but we don't really know anything for sure yet.  Here is a pretty good summary, I think,  

My parents just got their second dose and desperately want to pod with us.  My dad has continued going to the gym throughout the pandemic, though, while we are totally isolated, so I have been adamant about only seeing them outside and with masks.  IF the vaccine really does drive down transmission risks AND my parents don't increase their own exposure, though, I would be willing to lighten up on this.  But then with these new variants ... I don't know.  

[wathe]

1 hour ago, mlktwins said:

I am trying to catch up on all of this, but haven't been in a hurry since DH and I are not eligible yet.  My dad and my in-laws were eligible, but then our county ran out of vaccines.  Hard to keep track of what is going on anymore, but maybe they can get signed up soon.

But...and I am honestly not trying to make waves, I just have no one else really to talk to about this...is anyone concerned at all about getting the vaccine (either of the 2 being offered at the moment)?  How fast they came out, that people getting them now are really just a big trial, that Pfizer and Moderna will not be held labile for things that happen to people getting the shots, how long immunity really lasts, the new variants?  I have a relative, who works at a hospital, that is concerned about the new mRNA technology?  

Again, I really am not trying to stir the pot.  But...these are concerns of mine and I am overweight and probably would not do well if I got the virus.  I'm not anti-vax by any means as we (my teenage boys too) are all up to date on our shots and we get flu shot every year.

I think it helps to frame it as choosing between risks of the vaccine and risks of the virus.  Because it's only a matter of time before we are all exposed - lockdown forever isn't sustainable.  The  current state of evidence suggests that the vaccine is much less risky than the virus.

[wathe]

Double post, sorry.

Edited January 31, 2021 by wathe

[mlktwins]

6 minutes ago, wathe said:

Double post, sorry.

I was gonna joke that I heard you the first time 🤣🤣!!!

 

[TCB]

1 hour ago, mlktwins said:

I am trying to catch up on all of this, but haven't been in a hurry since DH and I are not eligible yet.  My dad and my in-laws were eligible, but then our county ran out of vaccines.  Hard to keep track of what is going on anymore, but maybe they can get signed up soon.

But...and I am honestly not trying to make waves, I just have no one else really to talk to about this...is anyone concerned at all about getting the vaccine (either of the 2 being offered at the moment)?  How fast they came out, that people getting them now are really just a big trial, that Pfizer and Moderna will not be held labile for things that happen to people getting the shots, how long immunity really lasts, the new variants?  I have a relative, who works at a hospital, that is concerned about the new mRNA technology?  

Again, I really am not trying to stir the pot.  But...these are concerns of mine and I am overweight and probably would not do well if I got the virus.  I'm not anti-vax by any means as we (my teenage boys too) are all up to date on our shots and we get flu shot every year.

I was pretty unsure and concerned about all the things you mentioned until I really started looking into it. Although I’m a HCW, my research made me realize how little I knew about the whole subject, and I suspect there are a number of other HCWs in that position. 
I got a lot of good information listening to the TWIV podcast. Also there is a dr on FB, who goes by the name ZDoggMD, who has several videos that explain the mRNA vaccines very well.

I’ve had the 2 Pfizer shots and I feel that they are safe. We don’t have very long term data about this particular mRNA vaccine, but the technology has been in development for some time. 
It just also makes sense to me that there are unlikely to be huge safety issues, especially when compared to getting Covid. When you get an RNA virus it enters your cell nucleus and hijacks your DNA to reproduce viruses. The mRNA in the vaccine doesn’t enter the nucleus but stays in the cytoplasm, and codes for only the spike protein, not the whole virus, so to me it makes sense that it should be less dangerous.

 

ETA - I’ve thought about it further and I’m not 100% sure the Sars-Cov-2 virus enters the cell nucleus - I think some RNA viruses do and some don’t.

Edited January 31, 2021 by TCB
Clarify something

[ktgrok]

Keep in mind that the main reason for the speed is that rather than waiting until after the trials to begin production, they went ahead and risked starting production while waiting for trial results. So two things happened at once, not that one was skipped. 

[ktgrok]

As for kids...we don't know. We do have studies showing vascular changes/damage - even in kids without significantly serious symptoms. So a kid can LOOK like they didn't get very sick and are now fine, but have vascular damage and we don't know how long that will last, what it will mean as far as future risk of cardiovascular problems, etc. 

[Not_a_Number]

7 minutes ago, TCB said:

The mRNA in the vaccine doesn’t enter the nucleus but stays in the cytoplasm, and codes for only the spike protein, not the whole virus, so to me it makes sense that it should be less dangerous

Ah, right, it would, wouldn't it? Since that's the whole point of mRNA: it's coding for a protein that the factories in your cell make. 

[Not_a_Number]

19 minutes ago, TCB said:

ETA - I’ve thought about it further and I’m not 100% sure the Sars-Cov-2 virus enters the cell nucleus - I think some RNA viruses do and some don’t.

We could look this up, I'm sure 😄 . 

I've been reading about viruses with DD8 for all of last year. (Right now, our science work is a graphic novel about DNA!) So I'm suddenly quite well-informed on viruses. 

DD8 asked to study viruses back in November of 2019. Also, she asked to be a virus for Purim, in an ill-fated costume that shall never be worn 😉 . We were apparently ahead of our time... 

Edited January 31, 2021 by Not_a_Number

[TCB]

3 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

We could look this up, I'm sure 😄 . 

I've been reading about viruses with DD8 for all of last year. (Right now, our science work is a graphic novel about DNA!) So I'm suddenly quite well-informed on viruses. 

DD8 asked to study viruses back in December. Also, she asked to be a virus for Purim, in an ill-fated costume that shall never be worn 😉 . We were apparently ahead of our time... 

I would keep an eye on her interests as she seems to be good at predicting the future lol!

[Not_a_Number]

2 minutes ago, TCB said:

I would keep an eye on her interests as she seems to be good at predicting the future lol!

I know, right?? 

Look, she was just about coronavirus last year 😛. I showed the picture to a friend in March, before things had gone totally topsy-turvy in NYC but after people were worried, and she told me to stick a crown on her and call her COVID... 

ETA: you can even see our virus book in the background!! 

Edited January 31, 2021 by Not_a_Number

[Drama Llama]

5 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

We could look this up, I'm sure 😄 . 

I've been reading about viruses with DD8 for all of last year. (Right now, our science work is a graphic novel about DNA!) So I'm suddenly quite well-informed on viruses. 

DD8 asked to study viruses back in November of 2019. Also, she asked to be a virus for Purim, in an ill-fated costume that shall never be worn 😉 . We were apparently ahead of our time... 

Maybe next time you could convince her to study winning lottery numbers?

I'd be happy to proof read any of her work on that topic.  I wouldn't even charge you. 

[Drama Llama]

1 hour ago, JennyD said:

I have been following this obsessively and from what i can tell so far, things look promising but we don't really know anything for sure yet.  Here is a pretty good summary, I think,  

My parents just got their second dose and desperately want to pod with us.  My dad has continued going to the gym throughout the pandemic, though, while we are totally isolated, so I have been adamant about only seeing them outside and with masks.  IF the vaccine really does drive down transmission risks AND my parents don't increase their own exposure, though, I would be willing to lighten up on this.  But then with these new variants ... I don't know.  

Thank you!  That article is helpful, although not reassuring. 

For example, for AZ it says that there was a 59% reduction in asymptomatic covid, but that means there's still a 41% chance of getting it asymptomatically?  For someone in a high exposure job that seems like a high risk to me.  

How are health care workers thinking about the risk to their families.  @wathe and @TCB any thoughts?

[Laura Corin]

28 minutes ago, ktgrok said:

Keep in mind that the main reason for the speed is that rather than waiting until after the trials to begin production, they went ahead and risked starting production while waiting for trial results. So two things happened at once, not that one was skipped. 

The way I  heard the vaccine process described - the normal process is like driving through heavy traffic across a big city. This process had a police escort and all the lights on green. The route was just the same, all the junctions were cleared,  but the usual time wasters  - lack of money, corporate and governmental unwillingness to risk putting money into facilities early, etc - were removed.

[TCB]

5 minutes ago, BaseballandHockey said:

How are health care workers thinking about the risk to their families.  @wathe and @TCB any thoughts?

Not sure if I am understanding but do you mean the risk of passing on Covid to our families because of possible asymptomatic transmissible infection once you have been vaccinated?

If so, I am waiting for the data, but continue to be very careful, as I was before having the vaccination. I would not want to be around any unvaccinated vulnerable person, relative or otherwise, without being very careful, until we have good data.

I guess, theoretically, the fact that my dh and I are vaccinated could pose a greater threat of infection to our daughters. We are all being very careful in our day to day lives, though, so I don’t feel a huge increase in worry. Neither of my dds appear to be high risk though.

[Drama Llama]

1 minute ago, TCB said:

Not sure if I am understanding but do you mean the risk of passing on Covid to our families because of possible asymptomatic transmissible infection once you have been vaccinated?

If so, I am waiting for the data, but continue to be very careful, as I was before having the vaccination. I would not want to be around any unvaccinated vulnerable person, relative or otherwise, without being very careful, until we have good data.

I guess, theoretically, the fact that my dh and I are vaccinated could pose a greater threat of infection to our daughters. We are all being very careful in our day to day lives, though, so I don’t feel a huge increase in worry. Neither of my dds appear to be high risk though.

So, we pod my in laws, which includes four high risk people.   One of those people, my GFIL would be particularly hard to stop seeing, but he is also not going to want to stop seeing the other high risk people, two of whom won't be vaccinated for quite a while.  

If DH goes back to work, the chances he'll be exposed are high.  Maybe higher than if he worked in a medical setting, just because he's got so much less control.  We can stop DH from seeing the high risk people directly, but stopping my kids from seeing them would be very very hard.  My GFIL is really struggling with grief, and my kids are huge comfort to him.  He eats better if they sit and eat with them, for example, and if we isolate from them, then my kids aren't seeing any adults who aren't completely messed up by grief.  That doesn't seem healthy.  So, I'm just trying to sort it out.  

I know that there are health care providers who take precautions to prevent them from passing the virus to their families.  I'm wondering what those precautions are, and how well they work. We took a lot of precautions when we were going back and forth to PICU, but the risk benefit calculations were different then.

[Drama Llama]

14 minutes ago, TCB said:

Not sure if I am understanding but do you mean the risk of passing on Covid to our families because of possible asymptomatic transmissible infection once you have been vaccinated?

If so, I am waiting for the data, but continue to be very careful, as I was before having the vaccination. I would not want to be around any unvaccinated vulnerable person, relative or otherwise, without being very careful, until we have good data.

I guess, theoretically, the fact that my dh and I are vaccinated could pose a greater threat of infection to our daughters. We are all being very careful in our day to day lives, though, so I don’t feel a huge increase in worry. Neither of my dds appear to be high risk though.

To be clear.   It's not that I think that vaccinated is a greater threat than unvaccinated in your situation.  I think that DH vaccinated and working face to face with unmasked members of the public, might be a great risk than unvaccinated DH who isn't working and hasn't gone anywhere in months.  

[Not_a_Number]

1 minute ago, BaseballandHockey said:

I know that there are health care providers who take precautions to prevent them from passing the virus to their families.  I'm wondering what those precautions are, and how well they work. We took a lot of precautions when we were going back and forth to PICU, but the risk benefit calculations were different then.

I think they have better control, though. But yeah, I've heard of people who make sure to strip off before they see anyone, and wash all their outdoor stuff, and lots of things. Your DH could do that... but he can't switch masks with every shift, you know? The biggest thing he could do is probably try not to catch it himself. So, getting a good mask, keeping it on all day, using hand sanitizer, not touching his face, etc. 

[wathe]

24 minutes ago, BaseballandHockey said:

Thank you!  That article is helpful, although not reassuring. 

For example, for AZ it says that there was a 59% reduction in asymptomatic covid, but that means there's still a 41% chance of getting it asymptomatically?  For someone in a high exposure job that seems like a high risk to me.  

How are health care workers thinking about the risk to their families.  @wathe and @TCB any thoughts?

I'm still not fully vaccinated.  We've have a national supply failure, and my second dose remains in limbo.

That said, I haven't changed my behaviour at work, home, or in the community, and I still won't change my behaviour once fully vaccinated.  At work I'm wrapped up tight in PPE and diligent about IPAC process.  At home, I don't do anything special - separating myself from my family is not sustainable, and the harms of longterm separation outweigh the risks, I think.  as for community, I am locked-down as tightly as anyone else; Groceries twice a month and necessary medical appointments, and walks in the neighbourhood. 

I don't think I will change my behaviour until community transmission is negligible.  And that won't be for a long time.

[Not_a_Number]

1 minute ago, wathe said:

I don't think I will change my behaviour until community transmission is negligible.  And that won't be for a long time.

I'm not a healthcare worker, but I imagine that's true for me, too. 

[Not_a_Number]

By the way, I've been paying attention to the Bloomberg vaccine map, and the US is doing better that almost anywhere else for vaccinating. Any idea what we did right here? Did we allow the vaccines earlier? Is there something else going on? 

[Drama Llama]

2 minutes ago, wathe said:

I'm still not fully vaccinated.  We've have a national supply failure, and my second dose remains in limbo.

That said, I haven't changed my behaviour at work, home, or in the community, and I still won't change my behaviour once fully vaccinated.  At work I'm wrapped up tight in PPE and diligent about IPAC process.  At home, I don't do anything special - separating myself from my family is not sustainable, and the harms of longterm separation outweigh the risks, I think.  as for community, I am locked-down as tightly as anyone else; Groceries twice a month and necessary medical appointments, and walks in the neighbourhood. 

I don't think I will change my behaviour until community transmission is negligible.  And that won't be for a long time.

So, our question is about if we make this major change in behavior, sending DH back to work.  We'd need to build new routines around that. 

 

[wathe]

6 minutes ago, BaseballandHockey said:

So, we pod my in laws, which includes four high risk people.   One of those people, my GFIL would be particularly hard to stop seeing, but he is also not going to want to stop seeing the other high risk people, two of whom won't be vaccinated for quite a while.  

If DH goes back to work, the chances he'll be exposed are high.  Maybe higher than if he worked in a medical setting, just because he's got so much less control.  We can stop DH from seeing the high risk people directly, but stopping my kids from seeing them would be very very hard.  My GFIL is really struggling with grief, and my kids are huge comfort to him.  He eats better if they sit and eat with them, for example, and if we isolate from them, then my kids aren't seeing any adults who aren't completely messed up by grief.  That doesn't seem healthy.  So, I'm just trying to sort it out.  

I know that there are health care providers who take precautions to prevent them from passing the virus to their families.  I'm wondering what those precautions are, and how well they work. We took a lot of precautions when we were going back and forth to PICU, but the risk benefit calculations were different then.

Short of living somewhere else and not seeing your family (which is not sustainable for years for most of us), I don't think is is much you can do.  If you are sharing a home, and interacting with your family, they are going to be exposed.  If I get covid, then they will be likely to get it too.

I put my energy into not catching it in the first place. 

(Well, common-sense things like hand-washing are obvious.  I wear scrubs that stay at work, so I'm not bringing home on my clothes.  I've stopped showering after work, and just wash face and hands instead (everything else, including hair, is under clothing or PPE while working)

[wathe]

17 minutes ago, BaseballandHockey said:

To be clear.   It's not that I think that vaccinated is a greater threat than unvaccinated in your situation.  I think that DH vaccinated and working face to face with unmasked members of the public, might be a great risk than unvaccinated DH who isn't working and hasn't gone anywhere in months.  

Absolutely yes.  During current conditions where community spread is rampant, yes, working face-to-face with the public while unmasked is risky, even when vaccinated, I think.  I don't think I would do that.  And short of sending DH to live somewhere else and have no contact with family, I don't think that there is any home mitigation strategy that will really work.

I'm curious to know what sort of job would require unmasked exposure to the public.  No need to answer that.

[Not_a_Number]

2 minutes ago, wathe said:

I'm curious to know what sort of job would require unmasked exposure to the public.  No need to answer that.

Well, he's not unmasked. Other people are. 

[wathe]

Just now, Not_a_Number said:

Well, he's not unmasked. Other people are. 

I misunderstood, then.  That changes the risk assessment.

I still think that working face-to-face with unmasked members of the public, even while vaccinated, is likely risker that staying at home unvaccinated.  But the risk is less.  If masked properly (real medical mask) and wearing eye-protection, then probably acceptable level of risk.  But still riskier than staying at home unvaccinated.

 

[maize]

10 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

Well, he's not unmasked. Other people are. 

Can he wear N95 masks? If I remember correctly you have a store of them.

 

 (You meaning Baseball)

Edited January 31, 2021 by maize

[Not_a_Number]

3 minutes ago, wathe said:

I misunderstood, then.  That changes the risk assessment.

I still think that working face-to-face with unmasked members of the public, even while vaccinated, is likely risker that staying at home unvaccinated.  But the risk is less.  If masked properly (real medical mask) and wearing eye-protection, then probably acceptable level of risk.  But still riskier than staying at home unvaccinated.

 

No, I think I was wrong 😕 . Sorry. I was the one who misunderstood.

Edited January 31, 2021 by Not_a_Number

[TCB]

42 minutes ago, BaseballandHockey said:

So, we pod my in laws, which includes four high risk people.   One of those people, my GFIL would be particularly hard to stop seeing, but he is also not going to want to stop seeing the other high risk people, two of whom won't be vaccinated for quite a while.  

If DH goes back to work, the chances he'll be exposed are high.  Maybe higher than if he worked in a medical setting, just because he's got so much less control.  We can stop DH from seeing the high risk people directly, but stopping my kids from seeing them would be very very hard.  My GFIL is really struggling with grief, and my kids are huge comfort to him.  He eats better if they sit and eat with them, for example, and if we isolate from them, then my kids aren't seeing any adults who aren't completely messed up by grief.  That doesn't seem healthy.  So, I'm just trying to sort it out.  

I know that there are health care providers who take precautions to prevent them from passing the virus to their families.  I'm wondering what those precautions are, and how well they work. We took a lot of precautions when we were going back and forth to PICU, but the risk benefit calculations were different then.

It is a really difficult thing to negotiate and I can see that there are many things you need to take into account in your situation.

The biggest thing I do to protect my family is be as careful as I possibly can to not catch Covid. I am meticulous with PPE at work. I always wear my surgical mask the entire shift, except very short periods of eating and drinking. I haven’t eaten in the break room since March. I stand up at the counter in the galley kitchen area which is open on both sides to eat quickly, and I make sure there isn’t anyone else there. I change into and out of  my “covid” shoes before going in from my car, and leave them in my car. I shower as soon as I get home from work and wash all clothes straight away. I was more cautious at first, but it isn’t sustainable, as Wathe said, and I don’t think necessary.

[wathe]

34 minutes ago, TCB said:

It is a really difficult thing to negotiate and I can see that there are many things you need to take into account in your situation.

The biggest thing I do to protect my family is be as careful as I possibly can to not catch Covid. I am meticulous with PPE at work. I always wear my surgical mask the entire shift, except very short periods of eating and drinking. I haven’t eaten in the break room since March. I stand up at the counter in the galley kitchen area which is open on both sides to eat quickly, and I make sure there isn’t anyone else there. I change into and out of  my “covid” shoes before going in from my car, and leave them in my car. I shower as soon as I get home from work and wash all clothes straight away. I was more cautious at first, but it isn’t sustainable, as Wathe said, and I don’t think necessary.

Agreed.  My mask is on my face at all times. Breakrooms are dangerous, IME.   I have adapted to working up to 10 hours without eating or drinking.  (If I must eat or drink, I use a room that's empty, and shut the door.  And scarf food and chug water as quickly as possible.  Not healthy, I know.)

[JennyD]

Interesting and cautiously optimistic threads about Israeli results here and here. 

Edited January 31, 2021 by JennyD

[Frances]

3 hours ago, TCB said:

It is a really difficult thing to negotiate and I can see that there are many things you need to take into account in your situation.

The biggest thing I do to protect my family is be as careful as I possibly can to not catch Covid. I am meticulous with PPE at work. I always wear my surgical mask the entire shift, except very short periods of eating and drinking. I haven’t eaten in the break room since March. I stand up at the counter in the galley kitchen area which is open on both sides to eat quickly, and I make sure there isn’t anyone else there. I change into and out of  my “covid” shoes before going in from my car, and leave them in my car. I shower as soon as I get home from work and wash all clothes straight away. I was more cautious at first, but it isn’t sustainable, as Wathe said, and I don’t think necessary.

This is very similar to what my husband, also a HCW does, but he is fortunate to be able to walk to work, so no car involved. When the weather was nice, he was eating outside, but most days now that is not very feasible. But he doesn’t eat in communal areas nor does he eat any of the donated food that is often sitting around, not so much because he is worried about the food itself, but just people gathered around it eating with masks off and touching communal things. He walks home on his meal break and picks up the food bag I prep and leave on our porch for him.

Edited February 1, 2021 by Frances