Classism and COVID

[TravelingChris]

4 hours ago, MoyaPechal said:

My husband has to work in person because he deals with classified information. For our HCOL area, we are lower middle class. We and everyone we know in a similar financial situation are being very careful. The people I know who think covid is a hoax and masks are stupid are all affluent crunchy moms.

THat is who I observed in the  summer too.  

[TravelingChris]

4 hours ago, Corraleno said:

Clearly we hang out in different crowds, because everyone I know in the "poor" category feels the opposite  — thus demonstrating my point that this is more about one's political persuasion than it is about the "elitism" of people who work from home or get groceries delivered.

Actually I have seen nothing to do with political persuasion and wearing or not wearing masks.  I mean my governor and mayor are pro mask, my lt gov is anti mask and all of my family is pro-mask with 2 voting Dem and 4 voting R.  

[TravelingChris]

4 hours ago, Happy2BaMom said:

Well, you haven't spent any time on a Native American reservation then - which, BTW, are among the very poorest of the poor - in the US. Most of them have extremely stringent protocols and many are in complete lockdown. There's been a lot of strife in SD where the reservations have locked down to the point of not allowing outside traffic through the reservation, much to the chagrin of the SD governor.

 

And it was really stupid too.  We had to make about a 200 mile detour and because they had all these officials come to our car and talk to us, versus just letting us drive through, they actually could have been contaminated.  ( Neither of us had Covid then or now as far as we know- unless we both had asymptomatic at some point and we wear N95 masks).

[TravelingChris]

1 hour ago, Mrs Tiggywinkle said:

She seems to believe that there should just be a very skeleton crew of essential workers. For instance, I was selfish to stay working as a paramedic because if we rearranged some things I could be a SAHM right now. Instead I worked, caught Covid and subsequently exposed my children.

People should choose to live where there are services such as high speed internet and food delivery. 
She is not mentally ill or uneducated.  She simply believes that it is her choices that have landed her a highly privileged spot in life.

Polticially she’s extremely extremely liberal, to the point some liberal mutual friends think she’s nuts.

i try to think the best of people but sometimes you’ve just got to unfollow on FB.

I have found that there are nuts on this issue and on other issues that have no correlation to traditional conservative liberal ideologies.  

Andyes, I agree with you about blocking jerky people on the internet.  

[Bootsie]

2 hours ago, OH_Homeschooler said:

I guess I just don't understand having a beef with teachers getting a little extra right now when there are so many politicians, corporations, basically tons of entities who are benefiting from working class tax money every single day. I would say that teachers are much more "in this" than say, stockholders who benefited from large companies getting boosts from the Cares Act.

There may indeed be other situations in which I do not think it is fair that some are benefiting at the expense of others.  My comments were in relation to the idea that there are certain sectors of society that are disproportionately feeling the burden of COVID.  I have seen a huge burden at many different levels--among highly educated and those with much less education; among business owners and workers; among those who have had more work than ever before and those who are now out of work; those in professional positions and those who are in minimum wage jobs.  Every other employer that I am aware of locally is reducing pay, reducing benefits, reducing employees.  I do not see public school employees (some of which have had LESS work to do in recent months) being hurt more than others--in fact they have fared much better than many of those who are around them that are being taxed for them to receive this windfall.  I think with everyone around tightening their belts, cutting back, being extra careful it is not prudent for the school district to make these types of decisions.

[HS Mom in NC]

2 hours ago, Mrs Tiggywinkle said:

She seems to believe that there should just be a very skeleton crew of essential workers. For instance, I was selfish to stay working as a paramedic because if we rearranged some things I could be a SAHM right now. Instead I worked, caught Covid and subsequently exposed my children.

People should choose to live where there are services such as high speed internet and food delivery. 
She is not mentally ill or uneducated.  She simply believes that it is her choices that have landed her a highly privileged spot in life.

Polticially she’s extremely extremely liberal, to the point some liberal mutual friends think she’s nuts.

i try to think the best of people but sometimes you’ve just got to unfollow on FB.

Ok, she IS out of touch with other people's realities.

[Scarlett]

2 hours ago, Mrs Tiggywinkle said:

She seems to believe that there should just be a very skeleton crew of essential workers. For instance, I was selfish to stay working as a paramedic because if we rearranged some things I could be a SAHM right now. Instead I worked, caught Covid and subsequently exposed my children.

People should choose to live where there are services such as high speed internet and food delivery. 
She is not mentally ill or uneducated.  She simply believes that it is her choices that have landed her a highly privileged spot in life.

Polticially she’s extremely extremely liberal, to the point some liberal mutual friends think she’s nuts.

i try to think the best of people but sometimes you’ve just got to unfollow on FB.

Those are such person decisions,I am not sure why she thought it was her place to suggest that to you unless you are super close.  I honestly might THINK Mrs Tiggywinkle should become SAHM because of Covid and if I was close enough to you I might suggest it....but to rant on social media for everyone to see is just rude.  

[mathnerd]

7 hours ago, MEmama said:

Thinking a little more on the idea of grocery delivery being regarded as “classist”: I would absolutely agree if delivery were only available for an additional cost, which would clearly affect some people more than others. If I had to pay for someone else to fetch my groceries for me, yeah, that would be deeply uncomfortable and I’d have a very difficult time participating in that system under any circumstances. But as it is, delivery is free. It is as available for a minimum wage earner as it is the millionaire. Now, I am in a position where I can afford to tip well so I do, but if I couldn’t, it isn’t necessary. Literally delivery is available to all, so I don’t think “classist” is the right term to be using.

What is true is the painful income disparity in this country, and obviously that is a very real issue. But that doesn’t stem from grocery delivery, that’s the result of decades of “governing” and doesn’t have anything to do with the subject here. I do think they need to be separated in order to have an honest conversation and brainstorm real solutions.

As an aside, when you say that grocery delivery is free, do you mean that every grocery store in your area offers free delivery? I only know of instacart that costs money and Amazon prime/Wholefoods ($35 minimum purchase). Are there any other services that are free?

[kokotg]

25 minutes ago, Bootsie said:

There may indeed be other situations in which I do not think it is fair that some are benefiting at the expense of others.  My comments were in relation to the idea that there are certain sectors of society that are disproportionately feeling the burden of COVID.  I have seen a huge burden at many different levels--among highly educated and those with much less education; among business owners and workers; among those who have had more work than ever before and those who are now out of work; those in professional positions and those who are in minimum wage jobs.  Every other employer that I am aware of locally is reducing pay, reducing benefits, reducing employees.  I do not see public school employees (some of which have had LESS work to do in recent months) being hurt more than others--in fact they have fared much better than many of those who are around them that are being taxed for them to receive this windfall.  I think with everyone around tightening their belts, cutting back, being extra careful it is not prudent for the school district to make these types of decisions.

They may well be thinking that this is a long term investment in teacher retention, and they're probably right. I think people are seriously underestimating the long term effects on recruitment and retention (already huge problems in education) the way teachers are being treated is going to have. I would NEVER encourage any of my kids to go into teaching after seeing how things have gone this year for my husband and other teachers (and that's not something I'd have said before this year). If he could afford to get out, he'd have already done it, as many of his co-workers have (leaving the remaining teachers with larger classes and more work, because long term subs are non-existent this year). And if by "less work to do" you're talking about online teaching, I can promise you that teaching online is not less work than teaching in person--particularly not this year. There are plenty of people who should be getting more money for the extra work and risk they've had to take on over the past few months; most of them aren't going to get it, and that sucks, but the blame doesn't lie with those few people who ARE getting a small gesture of appreciation. 

[MEmama]

5 minutes ago, mathnerd said:

As an aside, when you say that grocery delivery is free, do you mean that every grocery store in your area offers free delivery? I only know of instacart that costs money and Amazon prime/Wholefoods ($35 minimum purchase). Are there any other services that are free?

Idk, honestly. I only order delivery from one store. All shops around here offer free curbside, from groceries to pet supply shops to bookstores. 

I've already apologized for not including curbside as another free option available nearly everywhere. I guess I should always include a disclaimer that yes, there will *always* be exceptions. But I don’t think widely available services like these are classist, even if they aren't available to every.single.person. Very few services are. IIRC that was the conversation (sorry if I’m wrong—there have been a lot of threads to keep up with today!).

[mathnerd]

23 minutes ago, MEmama said:

Idk, honestly. I only order delivery from one store. All shops around here offer free curbside, from groceries to pet supply shops to bookstores. 

I've already apologized for not including curbside as another free option available nearly everywhere. I guess I should always include a disclaimer that yes, there will *always* be exceptions. But I don’t think widely available services like these are classist, even if they aren't available to every.single.person. Very few services are. IIRC that was the conversation (sorry if I’m wrong—there have been a lot of threads to keep up with today!).

No worries. I was just wondering if there was a free and fabulous delivery service that I had missed! The smaller stores like the ethnic markets (Indian, Asian) and small produce stores in my area are providing free delivery to the doorstep of customers within the same city and their prices are affordable to everyone. 

We have curbside pickup almost everywhere in my area (including Bestbuy, Home Depot, Target, Safeway, Nordstrom, Old Navy etc.).

I agree with you that the services that cost money like shipt and instacart are not classist and many older neighbors in my area use them because they don't want to enter any stores right now.

Edited December 4, 2020 by mathnerd

[HS Mom in NC]

I'm seeing nasty comments by Trumper ps parents on FB about teachers' unions "taking advantage" of COVID related policies so teacher don't have to do much work by teaching online.  I'm also hearing from several teacher friends and family members that their students are making nasty comments to them directly about teachers being lazy that appear to be echos of what the ps parents are saying to the students at home.

This is in addition to Trumpers on FB slandering the medical community about falsely counting COVID patients for financial gain.

I think they should repent before they reap what they sow and have fewer teachers and medical staff when they need them.

Most of my teacher friends and family and nasty Trumper ps parents are in PHX where the COL is skyrocketing but teaching salaries haven't been increasing proportionately. It's going to be a terrible problem soon.  One left to a lower COL area-imagine if more get fed up and do the same.

[Happy2BaMom]

1 hour ago, TravelingChris said:

And it was really stupid too.  We had to make about a 200 mile detour and because they had all these officials come to our car and talk to us, versus just letting us drive through, they actually could have been contaminated.  ( Neither of us had Covid then or now as far as we know- unless we both had asymptomatic at some point and we wear N95 masks).

I didn't say I thought it was smart, although obviously they believe the risk of having people access their reservation outweighs the benefits for those who wish to drive through.

My comment was merely a response to popmom, who was claiming poor people = anti-maskers.

Edited December 4, 2020 by Happy2BaMom

[Ausmumof3]

9 minutes ago, kand said:

 

I don't think anyone here thinks this way about people who have to be out for whatever reason, but there are some decisions that are not equal to other decisions. People who spout off about covid being a hoax and purposely throw big indoor gatherings just to show they can and just generally show no regard for the fact that people are suffering and dying due to this, and that their behavior is drawing this out and making it worse and making us need more restrictions in place to get things under control really aren't in a position where they are seeking grace, clearly. It's hard to feel grace for decisions someone is purposely making that endanger your life or that of those you love.

 

 

This is what I see as well. I hear high income mostly-white parents complain about shutdowns and schools being online, and they cite how we need to be thinking of minority and poor families suffering because of the lack of in person schooling or business shut downs, but then I see that especially minority families are MORE likely to want their kids to be in virtual school and to have unnecessary things closed, because they are the ones bearing the brunt of Covid. To be perfectly honest, I have felt since late Spring, that one of the turning points of many people wanting to throw everything back open was when it became clear that people of color were the people most at risk of death from Covid. I know that's an ugly thing to say, and I don't mean that people *wanted* minorities to get sick or die, I just mean that the concern about it seemed to evaporate for some people once it seemed like it was a risk to other people, but not to themself.

I agree, but I think this reason is being abused by some. I don't think mental health should be used as a reason to take no precautions at all, and especially not when people are using a very loose definition of mental health. I'm saying that as someone with a kid suffering from a particularly severe mental illness right now that is definitely made worse and harder to treat because of Covid. It makes me more sensitive to people abusing that reason, when we are dealing with something most people never will have to, and they think they should ignore covid regulations because their kid feels bummed out about their reduced social life or activities (Again, I'm agreeing that these things should absolutely be taken into account, I'm just saying that I see people abusing that and using it as an excuse to go way farther than necessary for mental health.)

 

Yeah I agree with that as well unfortunately 

[Ausmumof3]

42 minutes ago, Homeschool Mom in AZ said:

I'm seeing nasty comments by Trumper ps parents on FB about teachers' unions "taking advantage" of COVID related policies so teacher don't have to do much work by teaching online.  I'm also hearing from several teacher friends and family members that their students are making nasty comments to them directly about teachers being lazy that appear to be echos of what the ps parents are saying to the students at home.

This is in addition to Trumpers on FB slandering the medical community about falsely counting COVID patients for financial gain.

I think they should repent before they reap what they sow and have fewer teachers and medical staff when they need them.

Most of my teacher friends and family and nasty Trumper ps parents are in PHX where the COL is skyrocketing but teaching salaries haven't been increasing proportionately. It's going to be a terrible problem soon.  One left to a lower COL area-imagine if more get fed up and do the same.

I mean ... they could always homeschool if they don’t like it 😆

[Ausmumof3]

3 hours ago, Mrs Tiggywinkle said:

She seems to believe that there should just be a very skeleton crew of essential workers. For instance, I was selfish to stay working as a paramedic because if we rearranged some things I could be a SAHM right now. Instead I worked, caught Covid and subsequently exposed my children.

People should choose to live where there are services such as high speed internet and food delivery. 
She is not mentally ill or uneducated.  She simply believes that it is her choices that have landed her a highly privileged spot in life.

Polticially she’s extremely extremely liberal, to the point some liberal mutual friends think she’s nuts.

i try to think the best of people but sometimes you’ve just got to unfollow on FB.

Oh dear?  What did she expect would happen if someone in her house was injured and all the paramedics had stopped working?  People are strange sometimes.

[HS Mom in NC]

21 minutes ago, Ausmumof3 said:

I mean ... they could always homeschool if they don’t like it 😆

That's what I advise teachers to say when they tell me about those conversations or I say it to anyone trying to bend my ear about ps teachers. I use a really sympathetic tone of voice too and tell them very enthusiastically to contact me for homeschooling info.  It usually shuts them up.

[popmom]

57 minutes ago, Happy2BaMom said:

I didn't say I thought it was smart, although obviously they believe the risk of having people access their reservation outweighs the benefits for those who wish to drive through.

My comment was merely a response to popmom, who was claiming poor people = anti-maskers.

To be clear I wasn't not making that claim. I was sharing  my observations because, as has been mentioned by others, you definitely can't stereotype any one particular group --politically or socioeconomically-- as being anti mask mandate --or any other position that one might take relating to the pandemic.

[Bootsie]

1 hour ago, kokotg said:

They may well be thinking that this is a long term investment in teacher retention, and they're probably right. I think people are seriously underestimating the long term effects on recruitment and retention (already huge problems in education) the way teachers are being treated is going to have. I would NEVER encourage any of my kids to go into teaching after seeing how things have gone this year for my husband and other teachers (and that's not something I'd have said before this year). If he could afford to get out, he'd have already done it, as many of his co-workers have (leaving the remaining teachers with larger classes and more work, because long term subs are non-existent this year). And if by "less work to do" you're talking about online teaching, I can promise you that teaching online is not less work than teaching in person--particularly not this year. There are plenty of people who should be getting more money for the extra work and risk they've had to take on over the past few months; most of them aren't going to get it, and that sucks, but the blame doesn't lie with those few people who ARE getting a small gesture of appreciation. 

I know that online teaching is not less work--I am a college professor doing it--with bigger classes and less pay than I was receiving last year.  But, I also know that there are some who are doing less because many of the parts of their job just aren't occurring right now or they are not doable in an online situation.  

As far as encouraging children not to go into teaching because of the conditions, I also hear that from my friends who are nurses, medical doctors, veterinarians, college professors, engineers, lawyers, small business owners, etc.  In fact, I know few people who say that they would encourage their children to go into the same career they did because they feel that the work conditions have declined so much since they made that choice.  

[Frances]

On 12/2/2020 at 12:04 PM, Melissa Louise said:

Being forced to manage and cope with risk, because you have no option but to work on-site through a pandemic, can desensitise a person to risk outside of work contexts, and this is perfectly explicable. 

Generally, there is a class split between those who can work from home, and those who can't. 

The message, to differentiate between work risk and other risk, best comes from peers in the same situation. Even then, it's going to feel unfair. 

I think there are some pretty strong exceptions to the class split you describe though. Lots of healthcare workers are very well paid. The professors at private colleges here are teaching in person. In our state government offices, it is generally the highest level managers who are in the office regularly along with a few lower paid personnel, such as people dealing with mail.

[Not_a_Number]

17 minutes ago, popmom said:

To be clear I wasn't not making that claim. I was sharing  my observations because, as has been mentioned by others, you definitely can't stereotype any one particular group --politically or socioeconomically-- as being anti mask mandate --or any other position that one might take relating to the pandemic.

I think there are polls that suggest there's a political divide, actually. From posts on this board, I also get the sense there's a strong geographical divide, and from what I've seen, blue areas do seem to mask up more -- that's the way the peer pressure goes on those areas. 

[kokotg]

19 minutes ago, Bootsie said:

I know that online teaching is not less work--I am a college professor doing it--with bigger classes and less pay than I was receiving last year.  But, I also know that there are some who are doing less because many of the parts of their job just aren't occurring right now or they are not doable in an online situation.  

As far as encouraging children not to go into teaching because of the conditions, I also hear that from my friends who are nurses, medical doctors, veterinarians, college professors, engineers, lawyers, small business owners, etc.  In fact, I know few people who say that they would encourage their children to go into the same career they did because they feel that the work conditions have declined so much since they made that choice.  

I think I'm particularly sensitive to arguments about the taxpayers at the moment because the taxpayers I see in my county are people like my next door neighbors who are throwing a big Christmas party with "masks and social distancing discouraged" while putting their kid on a bus to school every day (and working from home themselves). Or a kid my husband tutors who went to Universal Studios for her birthday and then flew to Mexico for vacation over Thanksgiving and then went back to school as soon as she got back. Those people don't deserve in person school at all, much less an assurance that their taxes won't go up to compensate teachers for the extra work and risk they're taking on this year (and, to be clear, there's been no mention of any kind of bonus for teachers here). It's possible I'm casting too wide of a net with my outrage 😉

[Frances]

On 12/2/2020 at 3:44 PM, Soror said:

I don't personally feel fatalistic about COVID but I have a greater understanding of the feeling. I really don't appreciate the namecalling either, all but one of my local friends think I'm WAY too worried about this, I don't talk to people about it. But I don't feel great about the elitism I'm seeing from some about how stupid others are that don't agree with your determination of risk because risk is not equal for everyone. The lower classes and HCW are already shouldering a disproportionate share of it. And there is all this talk of reducing personal risk but a lot of that reduction of risk comes with increasing the risk of others not so well off, having others shop for you and deliver things for you. So, it isn't all reducing risk but transferring it to others.

Having others shop for you does not always increase their risk. We’ve done curbside grocery pickup the entire time. The store we use is locally owned and their regular employees do the shopping. If anything, it might lower their risk because they get to spend more time outside loading groceries in cars and fewer people are coming into the store.

[Frances]

On 12/2/2020 at 3:51 PM, regentrude said:

yes and no. One single customer probably doesn't make a difference - but they have those jobs because there are now enough people who have groceries delivered. And they're spending extra time in the store shopping YOUR order.
It is ethically complicated and not clear cut. Would the person otherwise have no source of income? Would they have a more dangerous job and this one is actually safer?

It's the same difficult questions that come up in discussions about sweatshops and child labor: would it be better if those didn't exist but folks had no way to earn a living and would starve? what is the responsibility of the consumer here if there is no societal solution? Very tricky questions and no easy answers (please note that i am not saying grocery deliver = child labor! But it raises similar issues, IMO)

I think your example applies more to delivery services like Instacart as opposed to regular workers at a grocery store shopping orders and loading them into cars doing curbside pickup. I only see a reduction in risk in the latter case. They would be there working either way, but are now exposed to fewer customers coming into the store and also more of their job is now done outdoors. In the former, it’s likely an increased risk for the Instacart worker, but perhaps a reduction in risk for the regular store employees since fewer different people are coming into the store.

[Frances]

On 12/2/2020 at 4:37 PM, TCB said:

This is so bizarre to me because personal risk is not driving my behavior at all. I do not understand how health care workers cannot understand, or possibly care, that the higher the incidence of virus, whether they are at risk from it or not, the greater the risk to the vulnerable population. Also, whether it makes a lot of difference or not, I go to work but otherwise do not engage in risky behavior because I want to look at myself in the mirror at the end of this and know that I did my level best to lessen the problem not make it worse. 
 

ETA - I also find it incomprehensible that health care workers do not think that their example can make a difference in the community.

I don’t think it’s universally true that healthcare workers are the ones taking the most risks outside of work. There was a recent incidence in my state concerning a nurse that caused a huge public outcry and much condemnation from the hospital employer and coworkers.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/11/30/us/oregon-nurse-tiktok-mask.html

 

[Frances]

11 hours ago, Amy Gen said:

Another side of this coin is the perceived difference in how we, the public are asked to behave and how our some of our more fortunate “leaders” are behaving. 
 

I really do believe that everyone is doing what they think is best and everyone believes they never take risks that are not “absolutely necessary”. The problem is that your necessary might not look necessary to me and the other way around.
 

This becomes an issue when we find out that our governor and mayors are going out to fancy dinners and parties and vacations while they threaten more “drastic” lockdowns and implore the public to stay at home. 
 

Their words say “We are all in this together.” But their actions say, “If you filthy peasants would stay home, my dinner at the French Laundry would be much more enjoyable.” 
 

 

While I agree with you that is completely unacceptable for leaders to say one thing and do another, I can’t remotely agree with you that everyone is doing what they think is best and everyone believes they never take risks that are not absolutely necessary. Misinformation, disinformation, and propaganda surrounding covid is widespread and very real. Some not only choose to not change any behavior at all, but purposely do things to increase risk for themselves and others.

[Frances]

8 hours ago, popmom said:

My point is that every single person I know that would fall into the poor category is vehemently anti mask, hangs out with friends, does all the things that Correlano hates. Her comment demonstrates her privilege. 

I’d say it’s exactly the opposite for the poor people I know personally. They include cleaners, low level healthcare workers, and retirees living off only SS, among others. Maybe it’s regional.

[Amy Gen]

I have an acquaintance who is a high school history teacher. In September he said that any teacher who didn’t want to return to school in person was too “self absorbed” to be an educator. 
 
He is so friggin’n privileged that his kid is getting a new bed this week. His parents are paying for it. He may be in his 50s now, but his parents still pay for his kids’ swim team and braces, and college and vacations. 
 

Uh oh. Now he is sick and his family thinks it is so sad that we don’t want to get exposed to his family until he gets a negative test or no longer has symptoms. 
 

I guess that makes self absorbed. 

[popmom]

2 minutes ago, Frances said:

I’d say it’s exactly the opposite for the poor people I know personally. They include cleaners, low level healthcare workers, and retirees living off only SS, among others. Maybe it’s regional.

I wonder if gender makes a difference. Most of my personal acquaintances that are low income or poor are men. At least those are the ones I have the most contact with.

[Frances]

Just now, popmom said:

I wonder if gender makes a difference. Most of my personal acquaintances that are low income or poor are men. At least those are the ones I have the most contact with.

It could be, mine are primarily women.

[popmom]

11 minutes ago, kand said:

That’s a correlation though, and doesn’t mean that them being poor is what makes them believe/behave the way they do. (And also I lol’ed at the idea that “hanging out with friends” is something Correlano hates. I know that’s not what you meant, but the wording is inflammatory in a way that made me laugh.)

I totally agree with you that it's a correlation. Not even that. Just my personal observation.

Maybe I should have said "unmasked gatherings with friends at restaurants". lol Is that less inflammatory? Lord. That was inflammatory?? I mean come on---there is a lot of anger toward people who do such things, no? I mean I think it's fair to say that if you believe that such gatherings are dangerous, then you would hate it. Not the people personally--the act of gathering.

I don't think Correlano hates getting together with her friends. 😉

 

Edited December 4, 2020 by popmom

[Bootsie]

1 hour ago, kokotg said:

I think I'm particularly sensitive to arguments about the taxpayers at the moment because the taxpayers I see in my county are people like my next door neighbors who are throwing a big Christmas party with "masks and social distancing discouraged" while putting their kid on a bus to school every day (and working from home themselves). Or a kid my husband tutors who went to Universal Studios for her birthday and then flew to Mexico for vacation over Thanksgiving and then went back to school as soon as she got back. Those people don't deserve in person school at all, much less an assurance that their taxes won't go up to compensate teachers for the extra work and risk they're taking on this year (and, to be clear, there's been no mention of any kind of bonus for teachers here). It's possible I'm casting too wide of a net with my outrage 😉

I am sorry that those around you are making those types of decisions.  Unfortunately, not only does it increase the risk for school teachers, it increases the risk for flight attendants, airport screeners, nurses, doctors, dentists, grocery workers, pharmacists, and many others around them.  

[kokotg]

3 hours ago, Choirfarm3 said:

Now, I'll bet the reason they were doing this was to get them to stay. They are doing whatever they can to keep subs and teachers. Many districts in our area are upping the pay for subs. They have to. They can't find them. Several districts around me closed because too many teachers were gone and no subs.  I could sub, but it just isn't worth it to me for the health risk, and I don't need the money.

 

There are no subs, and we're not to the worst of it yet (more and more covid everywhere, and cold and flu season on top of it); my husband was out sick for a couple of days a few weeks ago. He taught from home (while using up his sick days) while teachers from other departments took turns giving up planning periods and lunch to cover his classes. Two teachers just in his department took long term leave this year because they didn't feel safe being in person. There are no subs, so their classes got split up and shuffled around to other teachers. He knows teachers at other schools who've looked for other jobs while teaching this year and quit as soon as they could find something. And every day I see angry parents on social media telling teachers to "just quit" if they're not happy with how covid is being handled. They REALLY need to be careful what they wish for. If every teacher who wanted to quit right now, schools would be paying a whole lot more than what a one time bonus costs to try to staff schools again. 

[Danae]

43 minutes ago, kokotg said:

There are no subs, and we're not to the worst of it yet (more and more covid everywhere, and cold and flu season on top of it); my husband was out sick for a couple of days a few weeks ago. He taught from home (while using up his sick days) while teachers from other departments took turns giving up planning periods and lunch to cover his classes. Two teachers just in his department took long term leave this year because they didn't feel safe being in person. There are no subs, so their classes got split up and shuffled around to other teachers. He knows teachers at other schools who've looked for other jobs while teaching this year and quit as soon as they could find something. And every day I see angry parents on social media telling teachers to "just quit" if they're not happy with how covid is being handled. They REALLY need to be careful what they wish for. If every teacher who wanted to quit right now, schools would be paying a whole lot more than what a one time bonus costs to try to staff schools again. 

Re: the bolded, I keep hearing this and how are districts getting away with this?  If you’re working you should not be using up a sick day and if you’re using a sick day you should not have to be working.  What nonsense is this!?

[Bootsie]

5 hours ago, Choirfarm3 said:

I saw your later post that as a college prof you know about online teaching, so this doesn't make sense to me. My friends teaching in public school were teaching live and online classes at the same time. Much more work.

Now, I'll bet the reason they were doing this was to get them to stay. They are doing whatever they can to keep subs and teachers. Many districts in our area are upping the pay for subs. They have to. They can't find them. Several districts around me closed because too many teachers were gone and no subs.  I could sub, but it just isn't worth it to me for the health risk, and I don't need the money.

The teacher shortage is about to be really, really bad. We already had shortages before Covid. But most teachers I know, that probably would have taught a few more years are going to take early retirement. I honestly don't know who is going to fill those slots. The district is just wanting to survive and get people to teach or stay and teach. This isn't reckless spending. This is survival for school districts. 

Another district in my area announced yesterday that it was doing something similar--again no mention of a teacher shortage or retaining teachers.  This district is doing $2000 for employees that were working since before Oct 1 and $1000 for employees hired since Oct 1.  It extends to all employees, including bus drivers, who were not working (but who were getting paid) for several months early on in the pandemic because no one was riding a bus.  Therefore, I find it difficult to see how this is really about a teacher shortage.  Again, there has been no mention of a teacher shortage in my area (there has been talk of administrators acting as substitute teachers if needed); in fact, the concern in my area has been huge drops in public school enrollment.  

[kokotg]

38 minutes ago, Danae said:

Re: the bolded, I keep hearing this and how are districts getting away with this?  If you’re working you should not be using up a sick day and if you’re using a sick day you should not have to be working.  What nonsense is this!?

He didn't HAVE to work, but he did both because it was better for his students and put less of a burden on the people who were having to fill in for him. And he was well enough to work...he stayed home because he had a cough that was probably allergies (and it was; he had a negative covid test), but you can't just stay at work coughing this year even if it's probably nothing...another big problem for staffing.

[Danae]

3 hours ago, kokotg said:

He didn't HAVE to work, but he did both because it was better for his students and put less of a burden on the people who were having to fill in for him. And he was well enough to work...he stayed home because he had a cough that was probably allergies (and it was; he had a negative covid test), but you can't just stay at work coughing this year even if it's probably nothing...another big problem for staffing.

So he was working and shouldn’t have had to use a sick day.  

 

 

[mom2scouts]

18 hours ago, Homeschool Mom in AZ said:

That's what I advise teachers to say when they tell me about those conversations or I say it to anyone trying to bend my ear about ps teachers. I use a really sympathetic tone of voice too and tell them very enthusiastically to contact me for homeschooling info.  It usually shuts them up.

The teachers in my area wouldn't dare suggest homeschooling to people complaining. Not if they want to keep jobs. Our teachers are very well paid, especially in our low cost of living area. Our schools are funded by per student money and so many of the people complaining about virtual school *have* pulled their kids to homeschool. Many of them are saying they plan to continue homeshooling. My DIL applied for a local teaching job last year and she was in a pool of over 30 people for one open position, so we don't exactly have a teacher shortage. 

Edited December 4, 2020 by mom2scouts

[HS Mom in NC]

11 minutes ago, mom2scouts said:

My DIL applied for a local teaching job last year and she was in a pool of over 30 people for one open position, so we don't exactly have a teacher shortage. 

What part of the country are you in? Is it true of all positions (advanced high school maths and sciences) too? Does this area have AP classes for high school students?

[mom2scouts]

1 minute ago, Homeschool Mom in AZ said:

What part of the country are you in? Is it true of all positions (advanced high school maths and sciences) too? Does this area have AP classes for high school students?

I'm in the Midwest/Great Lakes area. Yes, there are 14 AP classes. My oldest was an AP Scholar. I think he passed five AP tests. Our math and science teachers are probably the best teachers in the school and the chemistry teacher inspired one of my children to become a scientist. Another teacher was a former chemical engineer, but realized she wanted to be around people more and became a high school teacher. Open positions are usually filled immediately and class sizes are about 20, but that's after they closed an elementary school a few years ago due to declining enrollment,

[mom2scouts]

18 minutes ago, Choirfarm3 said:

Yes, of course they want to teach there. Rural schools or inner city schools are desperate.  And most of those are filled with minority students!

I personally know three teachers who left there to go to inner city schools. One even drives a significant distance to a high school for high risk students. 

Oh, and you're wrong about it being an example of "classism". EVERY single one of the schools in our district is a Title 1 school.

Edited December 4, 2020 by mom2scouts

[Bootsie]

39 minutes ago, Choirfarm3 said:

https://www.dallasnews.com/opinion/editorials/2020/11/04/is-texas-on-the-verge-of-a-pandemic-induced-teacher-shortage/

 

Interestingly this article does not have anything specific to Texas and any indication that there is a teacher shortage.  It is an opinion piece that says there "may be" because of a national survey of teachers.  If you look at data, many school districts in Texas are complaining about significant drops in enrollment--fewer students to teach--rather than a shortage of teachers.  (short-term subs are a different story right now, but that is a totally different issue)

[vonfirmath]

8 hours ago, Bootsie said:

Interestingly this article does not have anything specific to Texas and any indication that there is a teacher shortage.  It is an opinion piece that says there "may be" because of a national survey of teachers.  If you look at data, many school districts in Texas are complaining about significant drops in enrollment--fewer students to teach--rather than a shortage of teachers.  (short-term subs are a different story right now, but that is a totally different issue)

Short-term subs were a problem LAST year -- before the lockdown

My daughter's teacher stopped showing up to school February 14, 2020 and she has not seen him since. They had one or two day subs. They had one particular sub for a week. They had days they were split up and put into other teachers classes due to not having a sub. But they didn't have a steady teacher for a MONTH until they left for Spring Break (And then never came back -- but over Spring Break they were split up and assigned to different permanent teachers so at least they weren't in substitute classes anymore)

 

[kokotg]

We can tell our local anecdotes all we want, but there's actual data about teacher shortages that predates covid: https://www.epi.org/publication/the-teacher-shortage-is-real-large-and-growing-and-worse-than-we-thought-the-first-report-in-the-perfect-storm-in-the-teacher-labor-market-series/

I mean, it makes sense, right? Teachers--particularly in math and science--are compensated poorly for the level of education they have (more than half of public school teachers hold a masters degree). So if you want to attract highly qualified teachers there has to be something attractive about the job other than the pay. Given that more than 40% of new teachers leave the profession within 5 years, it seems that schools weren't doing a great job with that even before covid. Throw risking your life or health into the mix of low pay, seas of bureaucracy to wade through, not enough respect, and long hours, and it's no wonder so many teachers are looking to get out. The satisfaction of helping kids learn coupled with a long summer break (if you don't have to work through it to make ends meet) can only go so far. 

Incidentally, DH's superintendent confirmed it in his cheerful end of the week e-mail yesterday: in addition to cancelling step increases this year, there will be no one time bonuses. 

[Bootsie]

52 minutes ago, kokotg said:

We can tell our local anecdotes all we want, but there's actual data about teacher shortages that predates covid: https://www.epi.org/publication/the-teacher-shortage-is-real-large-and-growing-and-worse-than-we-thought-the-first-report-in-the-perfect-storm-in-the-teacher-labor-market-series/

I mean, it makes sense, right? Teachers--particularly in math and science--are compensated poorly for the level of education they have (more than half of public school teachers hold a masters degree). So if you want to attract highly qualified teachers there has to be something attractive about the job other than the pay. Given that more than 40% of new teachers leave the profession within 5 years, it seems that schools weren't doing a great job with that even before covid. Throw risking your life or health into the mix of low pay, seas of bureaucracy to wade through, not enough respect, and long hours, and it's no wonder so many teachers are looking to get out. The satisfaction of helping kids learn coupled with a long summer break (if you don't have to work through it to make ends meet) can only go so far. 

Incidentally, DH's superintendent confirmed it in his cheerful end of the week e-mail yesterday: in addition to cancelling step increases this year, there will be no one time bonuses. 

The data in the article you link does not provide evidence that a teacher shortage exists.  The data it provides shows teacher supply larger than teacher demand (actually a SURPLUS) at the time the article was written.  They are predicting that there will be a shortage.  We would need to look at more recent data to see what has happened to know if there is teacher shortage.

 

Even then, teacher shortages are highly localized.  A school district that does not have a teacher shortages (but has a student shortage) paying bonuses to all employees does nothing to address an issue of a teacher shortage in another area. of the country.

How does the 40% of new teachers leaving the profession within 5 years compare to other industries and professions?  Didn't the teachers know what the salary was going to be when they entered the profession?  If so, then pay being the motivating factor for leaving would not make sense.  If you look at the statistics, you also find that the highest attrition is from teachers who did not take a traditional route to teaching and have alternative and emergency certifications.  So, people who had not planned to be or intended to be leave the profession in high numbers; the highly qualified people are much less likely to leave the profession.  

I am not convinced that the pay, in my area, is out of line with other jobs (I realize that may not be the case in other areas of the country).  I see that teachers make more money in my area than firefighters (and we have places where firefighters are required to have a college degree); the firefighters are risking their lives, work more hours per year, have to deal with many kinds of people, have to maintain physical conditioning, have to complete continuing education, etc.   I also know many community college instructors and college professors, with at least a masters and often a PhD, who make less than their public school counterparts, teaching more students without the same support staff surrounding them, having to pay for parking (which I know for some runs over $500 per month) which I don't know any public school teachers having to do. 

[kokotg]

8 minutes ago, Bootsie said:

 

I am not convinced that the pay, in my area, is out of line with other jobs (I realize that may not be the case in other areas of the country).  I see that teachers make more money in my area than firefighters (and we have places where firefighters are required to have a college degree); the firefighters are risking their lives, work more hours per year, have to deal with many kinds of people, have to maintain physical conditioning, have to complete continuing education, etc.   I also know many community college instructors and college professors, with at least a masters and often a PhD, who make less than their public school counterparts, teaching more students without the same support staff surrounding them, having to pay for parking (which I know for some runs over $500 per month) which I don't know any public school teachers having to do. 

Firefighting is certainly another profession I'd put in the "you have to be doing it for something besides the money" category. Community college professors are woefully underpaid. I talk about teaching because I have a personal connection with it; I'm not implying that teachers are in a unique situation with regard to the pandemic or to being in an undervalued profession. 

[Not_a_Number]

11 minutes ago, kokotg said:

Firefighting is certainly another profession I'd put in the "you have to be doing it for something besides the money" category. Community college professors are woefully underpaid. I talk about teaching because I have a personal connection with it; I'm not implying that teachers are in a unique situation with regard to the pandemic or to being in an undervalued profession. 

I love teaching and I can't imagine becoming a school teacher. I would say that this suggests that something is out of whack... teaching really is one of the things I most enjoy, but the work environment and the compensation just aren't worth it for someone with my qualifications. 

[Bootsie]

1 hour ago, kokotg said:

Firefighting is certainly another profession I'd put in the "you have to be doing it for something besides the money" category. Community college professors are woefully underpaid. I talk about teaching because I have a personal connection with it; I'm not implying that teachers are in a unique situation with regard to the pandemic or to being in an undervalued profession. 

Yes, there are many professions and people who are being impacted.  Almost everyone I know is either working under more stressful working conditions, has more risk, is working working hours, is receiving less pay, or is in a situation with much reduced work and pay.  I see those impacts across educational levels, socioeconomic classes, and professions.  It is happening to people in the medical profession, in education, in retail, in manufacturing... 

What I am seeing more than one demographic being disproportionately harmed is people seeing the impact of the pandemic from their own lens and not understanding why other people are impacted differently or make other decisions.  

My local newspaper has an article today on the disproportionate impact of COVID on Hispanics.  The article states that 30% of the county is Hispanic and 26% of the diagnosis in the county are Hispanic.  It then goes on to hypothesize why Hispanics are more likely to be diagnosed with COVID, stating that it is because their jobs are less likely to be able to done remotely.  I reread the article and checked their numbers.  Their numbers point to lower rate among Hispanics, not higher???  Then, they do not provide any indication that Hispanics are more likely to work in jobs that can't be done remotely.  Are Hispanics overly represented as teachers? lab techs? dentists? firefighters? EMS? Nurses? Surgeons? hairdressers?  I have not seen anything that really looks across jobs and has shown that there is a significant difference across socio economic or racial groups.  Perhaps there is a difference, but most of the articles that I have seen that promote that idea are drawing conclusions with no data and making leaps in logic.  

 

 

[Frances]

2 hours ago, kokotg said:

Firefighting is certainly another profession I'd put in the "you have to be doing it for something besides the money" category. Community college professors are woefully underpaid. I talk about teaching because I have a personal connection with it; I'm not implying that teachers are in a unique situation with regard to the pandemic or to being in an undervalued profession. 

I’d have to disagree about firefighting, at least where I live. Here they are highly sought after, very competitive jobs to get as they are highly compensated with excellent benefits including early retirement and since they work 24 hour shifts, have significant time off.

[kokotg]

1 minute ago, Frances said:

I’d have to disagree about firefighting, at least where I live. Here they are highly sought after, very competitive jobs to get as they are highly compensated with excellent benefits including early retirement and since they work 24 hour shifts, have significant time off.

I'm not sure it's really possible to pay firefighters what they deserve. I have a very high opinion of firefighters. Early retirement is a nice perk, but it's also such a physically demanding job that you really have to either retire or move into a more administrative position as you get older I would think. But decent benefits that give you something like the safety net that used to be more common across the board is one nice thing about most government jobs. Assuming the money for pensions is actually still there in a few decades...