Classism and COVID

[Mrs Tiggywinkle]

Just now, Not_a_Number said:

Which of course means they could have a far worse case if they pick one up in a restaurant without any PPE 😕 . 

So far there are no local outbreaks traced to restaurants at all.  But they are also at 25% capacity, masking is mandatory except while eating, and you’re sat far apart from other people. I was chatting with the infection control doc the other day about a possible exposure I had last week and if I should be concerned(they said no because I should have antibodies and had proper PPE minus a gown) and he said personally he has more concerns about the air circulating through the vents in his apartment building than eating at a restaurant right now.  I think in different states where there isn’t a mask mandate and people are crowded the risk would be very different.

On the flip side, if I catch Covid a third time I’m giving up and becoming a hermit.  My whole body still hurts and I’m still dealing with other residual effects that are miserable.

[Not_a_Number]

Just now, Mrs Tiggywinkle said:

I was chatting with the infection control doc the other day about a possible exposure I had last week and if I should be concerned(they said no because I should have antibodies and had proper PPE minus a gown) and he said personally he has more concerns about the air circulating through the vents in his apartment building than eating at a restaurant right now.

So, as someone who does live in apartment buildings, lol... have there been any outbreaks in apartment buildings? I haven't seen anything. 

 

1 minute ago, Mrs Tiggywinkle said:

So far there are no local outbreaks traced to restaurants at all.  But they are also at 25% capacity, masking is mandatory except while eating, and you’re sat far apart from other people.

Interesting. Where are the outbreaks traced to? NY is, of course, still at fairly low positivity. It's not EVERYWHERE again... not yet. Positivity is going up, though. 

[Mrs Tiggywinkle]

7 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

So, as someone who does live in apartment buildings, lol... have there been any outbreaks in apartment buildings? I haven't seen anything. 

 

Interesting. Where are the outbreaks traced to? NY is, of course, still at fairly low positivity. It's not EVERYWHERE again... not yet. Positivity is going up, though. 

Workplace clusters, nursing homes, two weddings that were identified as clusters, and, mostly, small private gatherings such as baby showers, movie/game nights, people just hanging out together. Nursing homes are the biggest ones and also contribute to workplace clusters.  One nursing home in the county I work at has an 80% positive rate among residents. That county is also in the NY orange zone. 
Basically anyplace people are in contact for prolonged periods of time unmasked. The workplace clusters people were shown to be masked, but were in close proximity for hours. (I caught Covid in a workplace cluster. I can guarantee that unless we were sleeping everyone was masked.  And we all slept in separate rooms. The health department investigated because it was a cluster and basically said we don’t know; probably the air vents. However, we were all in reasonably close proximity, even masked, for the majority of 24 hours)

Edited December 2, 2020 by Mrs Tiggywinkle

[regentrude]

26 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

... and this is how I wound up not talking to a local homeschooling mom since March... because I did feel mad. It didn't do any good, though. 

no, anger does not do good. But it is a valid emotion, and I do not apologize for feeling angry. I can still be civil. But I have no obligation to feel not-angry.

Edited December 2, 2020 by regentrude

[catz]

This is kind of an aside, but this came out about the Minnesota Mayo Clinic a couple weeks ago.  900+ employees tested covid+ during a 2 week period in November.  93% of them were determined to have been exposed via community spread (as opposed to at work in a hospital/clinic)  Just because someone gets covid and works in a high risk job, does not mean that they  got it at work.  I find this really interesting actually and makes me wonder about choices being made outside of work and fatalism as someone else mentioned.  And can easily just be exposure at home - kids go to school, spouse stopped at a bar, etc.

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/more-900-mayo-clinic-staff-midwest-diagnosed-covid-19-past-n1248130

I certainly do think people can and are infected in apartment buildings.  I bought 2 air purifiers for my college student's apartment this fall and if I lived in a condo/apartment I would consider getting a set up like this.  There were known covid cases in his building.   

[Not_a_Number]

1 minute ago, Mrs Tiggywinkle said:

Workplace clusters, nursing homes, two weddings that were identified as clusters, and, mostly, small private gatherings such as baby showers, movie/game nights, people just hanging out together. Nursing homes are the biggest ones and also contribute to workplace clusters.  One nursing home in the county I work at has an 80% positive rate among residents. That county is also in the NY orange zone. 
Basically anyplace people are in contact for prolonged periods of time unmasked. The workplace clusters people were shown to be masked, but were in close proximity for hours. 

Yeah, that certainly matches what I think of as risky situations -- together indoors for hours, even worse if no mask. 

[Not_a_Number]

Just now, FuzzyCatz said:

I certainly do think people can and are infected in apartment buildings.  I bought 2 air purifiers for my college student's apartment this fall and if I lived in a condo/apartment I would consider getting a set up like this.  There were known covid cases in his building.   

It's possible, but I haven't seen anything like that from any of the countries that trace clusters carefully. We're currently in a smallish building, and we were in a big building in NY, and we did have COVID in the building, but I don't think any neighbors caught it. 

Any outbreaks in apartment buildings you know about without people actually mingling? 

[Bootsie]

My university gave professors the choice of teaching in-person or online this semester.  I went back and forth over what was the "right" decision to make.  I don't enjoy teaching online as much, I do not think it is as effective, and the students at my university do not like it.  Teaching online does reduce my personal risk (and it is nice to teach barefoot).  The university was concerned about its financial situation if a large group of classes were online (and there are some broader accreditation issues).  Some classes cannot be taught online because of necessary lab equipment.  Some classes can more easily be transferred online.  My classes are somewhat middle of the road--not the easiest and not the most difficult.  So, what is the best decision, to teach online so that those who must teach in person, the janitorial staff, and others who must be in the buildings have lower risk?  Or, because I don't have high risk factors or small children at home who are homeschool, should I be one of the ones to volunteer to teach in person so that we have a critical mass of classes and the university can afford to continue to employ other people? But, DH is older and DS has some in-person classes, so how do I weigh risk to DH?  Because DS is already with the students does one more person in the household being exposed greatly increase risk to DH?  Decisions regarding what is most prudent to do personally and for your community can be complex.  

[Mrs Tiggywinkle]

4 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

It's possible, but I haven't seen anything like that from any of the countries that trace clusters carefully. We're currently in a smallish building, and we were in a big building in NY, and we did have COVID in the building, but I don't think any neighbors caught it. 

Any outbreaks in apartment buildings you know about without people actually mingling? 

https://www.albertahealthservices.ca/assets/info/ppih/if-ppih-covid-19-sag-transmission-in-condo-or-apartment-buildings-rapid-review.pdf
 

This theorizes wastewater as the source of transmission.  

[catz]

6 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

It's possible, but I haven't seen anything like that from any of the countries that trace clusters carefully. We're currently in a smallish building, and we were in a big building in NY, and we did have COVID in the building, but I don't think any neighbors caught it. 

Any outbreaks in apartment buildings you know about without people actually mingling? 

Oh no, I just think like college students mingle in hallways, don't think about not using the elevator, may be more "touchy" without thinking about it.  There were certainly cases on kid's campus where students weren't exactly sure where exposed living in  apartments with all online classes.   My kid masked in the hallways and washed hands on entry, him and his 2 covid conservative roomies got through the semester just fine.  I think plenty of people would think that short chat in the closed hall at close  range won't be an issue but it could potentially be an issue.  Or lingering in the mail room after the infected delivery person just spent 20 minutes loading packages.  

I did read about one case in NYC where a teen got it and the only place he had been in weeks was the laundry room in the basement of his apartment building.  Not in close range of anyone but his family.  

Edited December 2, 2020 by FuzzyCatz

[Not_a_Number]

Just now, FuzzyCatz said:

Oh no, I just think like college students mingle in hallways, don't think about not using the elevator, may be more "touchy" without thinking about it.  There were certainly cases on kid's campus where students weren't exactly sure where exposed living in  apartments with all online classes.   My kid masked in the hallways and washed hands on entry, him and his 2 covid conservative roomies got through the semester just fine.  I think plenty of people would think that short chat in the closed hall at close  range won't be an issue but it could potentially be an issue.  Or lingering in the mail room after the infected delivery person just spent 20 minutes loading packages.  

I did read about one case in NYC where a teen got it and the only place he had been in weeks was the laundry room in the basement of his apartment building.  

Ah, yeah, I agree that buildings involve more mingling! 

I just looked it up and it looks like apartment spread is VERY rare. There were a few cases in China and Hong Kong involving faulty plumbing, but it seems unlikely to be a big issue in the US. (And even there, those cases seem much rarer than other kinds of spread -- so many people live in apartment buildings there!) 

[Soror]

I don't personally feel fatalistic about COVID but I have a greater understanding of the feeling. I really don't appreciate the namecalling either, all but one of my local friends think I'm WAY too worried about this, I don't talk to people about it. But I don't feel great about the elitism I'm seeing from some about how stupid others are that don't agree with your determination of risk because risk is not equal for everyone. The lower classes and HCW are already shouldering a disproportionate share of it. And there is all this talk of reducing personal risk but a lot of that reduction of risk comes with increasing the risk of others not so well off, having others shop for you and deliver things for you. So, it isn't all reducing risk but transferring it to others.

[Not_a_Number]

6 minutes ago, Mrs Tiggywinkle said:

https://www.albertahealthservices.ca/assets/info/ppih/if-ppih-covid-19-sag-transmission-in-condo-or-apartment-buildings-rapid-review.pdf
 

This theorizes wastewater as the source of transmission.  

Ah, thanks -- I didn't see the Calgary one! 

It still seems MUCH rarer than picking it up elsewhere. Like, yes, there are case studies, but given how many people live in apartments the world over, the denominator of that fraction is huge. 

[Not_a_Number]

Just now, Soror said:

And there is all this talk of reducing personal risk but a lot of that reduction of risk comes with increasing the risk of others not so well off, having others shop for you and deliver things for you.

Is the worker who is delivering my groceries actually worse off from me ordering them? Because I don't see how. Since I don't go to the store, they don't have to share air with me, and they'd have this job whether I ordered the groceries or not. 

[Not_a_Number]

Just now, Thatboyofmine said:

If people are out at a restaurant, they are also choosing to be out in public, as are we.  Hopefully they keep their masks on at other places, as do we.   And the people in the industries that my family works in are also choosing to go out in public.    Two of their businesses are very public places that deal with all types of people who have chosen to be there.    

I unfortunately don't have much faith in masks when it comes to prolonged interactions. 

We do try to support restaurants by getting takeout. It's a tough time for restaurants, for sure 😞 . 

[regentrude]

6 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

Is the worker who is delivering my groceries actually worse off from me ordering them? Because I don't see how. Since I don't go to the store, they don't have to share air with me, and they'd have this job whether I ordered the groceries or not. 

yes and no. One single customer probably doesn't make a difference - but they have those jobs because there are now enough people who have groceries delivered. And they're spending extra time in the store shopping YOUR order.
It is ethically complicated and not clear cut. Would the person otherwise have no source of income? Would they have a more dangerous job and this one is actually safer?

It's the same difficult questions that come up in discussions about sweatshops and child labor: would it be better if those didn't exist but folks had no way to earn a living and would starve? what is the responsibility of the consumer here if there is no societal solution? Very tricky questions and no easy answers (please note that i am not saying grocery deliver = child labor! But it raises similar issues, IMO)

Edited December 2, 2020 by regentrude

[Not_a_Number]

Just now, regentrude said:

yes and no. One single customer probably doesn't make a difference - but they have those jobs because there are now enough people who have groceries delivered. It is ethically complicated and not clear cut. Would the person otherwise have no source of income? Would they have a more dangerous job and this one is actually safer?

It's the same difficult questions that come up in discussions about sweatshops and child labor: would it be better if those folks had no way to earn a living? what is the responsibility of the consumer here? Very tricky questions and no easy answers

I guess it doesn't seem like a worse job than the other public-facing jobs. I do have groceries delivered, and I don't feel bad about it. I can see the icky part of it, though, but I don't think me going to the store would be better. 

[Happy2BaMom]

4 hours ago, Soror said:

I see anger at people doing various risky activities but little acknowledgement that the risk so many have no choice in that is making it possible for so many to stay at home. 

Hmmm, I don't see this at all. I've never heard or read anything that people are being judged for working.

 Did 40 million people have to travel over Thanksgiving for work? What about the weddings & funerals (those held w/o regard for any safety precautions) & coops & community gatherings (including protests) & play dates & vacations & parties & it's-all-overblown, etc?

From my corner of the world, the anger has never been about people working. It's about all the unnecessary get-togethers, etc, plus all the mocking, downplaying, etc.

 

Edited December 3, 2020 by Happy2BaMom

[QueenCat]

44 minutes ago, Bootsie said:

But many of the taxpayers funding this are ALSO working more than their normal and receiving pay cuts.  

It's about having teachers in the classroom instead of long-term subs and mid-year hires to fill vacancies. Around here, it's an issue. A small reward can sometimes help. 

[MEmama]

33 minutes ago, Soror said:

 And there is all this talk of reducing personal risk but a lot of that reduction of risk comes with increasing the risk of others not so well off, having others shop for you and deliver things for you. So, it isn't all reducing risk but transferring it to others.

When grocery delivery became available to our town (we were isolating at home at the time because DS had COVID), I struggled mightily with this question. And at first I did feel guilty/ uncomfortable ordering delivery—was I just deflecting potential risk to myself onto someone else? Or is it safer for that worker to have fewer customers in the store? 
 

Ultimately I decided fewer people in public=less exposure for everyone. While at first I wondered if delivery was classist, or smacks of elitism, I realized that I don’t know the workers economic status nor they mine. They aren’t guaranteed to be different at all. I do tip very well, though, for the few services we ask of others (grocery delivery, take out). Those are hard jobs, pandemic or no. 

[prairiewindmomma]

I’m seeing a bit of fatalism and risk normalization in the health care workers I know also. It reminds me of soldiers coming back from war zones—risky behavior because their analysis has been skewed by their circumstances.

 

[TCB]

1 hour ago, Mrs Tiggywinkle said:

I honestly think this is a fascinating topic and am really interested in all the replies.

Essential workers are hands down the least isolated people I personally know.  Part of it is just fatigue, part of it is fatalism of being consistently exposed anyway; and some, especially with the ER doctors and nurses I know, have done a risk-benefit analysis.  One ER doctor officiated a wedding where there were about a hundred guests.  No pictures showed anyone masked(I was not invited; the couple were coworkers).  We’re good enough friends that I asked, because he’s doing everything like eating out and everything. He said he’d considered the risk analysis; he has no vulnerable family members and his patient care time is limited and with so much PPE it’s not considered an exposure for anyone.  This is the prevalent attitude of a lot of people I personally know.  The local government keeps putting out PSA’s about small groups in homes driving the spread, but people have decided that their chances of getting it and being seriously ill is so low that they aren’t concerned.

 It’s a risk-benefit analysis. These people have decided that their risk, and the people they are around, is low enough to have weddings and card games. 

This is so bizarre to me because personal risk is not driving my behavior at all. I do not understand how health care workers cannot understand, or possibly care, that the higher the incidence of virus, whether they are at risk from it or not, the greater the risk to the vulnerable population. Also, whether it makes a lot of difference or not, I go to work but otherwise do not engage in risky behavior because I want to look at myself in the mirror at the end of this and know that I did my level best to lessen the problem not make it worse. 
 

ETA - I also find it incomprehensible that health care workers do not think that their example can make a difference in the community.

Edited December 3, 2020 by TCB

[mathnerd]

4 hours ago, Soror said:

I see anger at people doing various risky activities but little acknowledgement that the risk so many have no choice in that is making it possible for so many to stay at home. 

Risky behavior is not the same as the behavior of essential workers who are risking their lives to do their jobs. If you mix those two concepts up in your mind, then, the anger seems very elitist.

I am angry at the people who are doing things that are a risk to society. I am on several professional groups and meet several people on Zoom every day for various discussions and in the past 10 days, people have mentioned booking flights and vacations to Hawaii and Florida (good rates apparently!), going skiing at Tahoe (cannot give up annual tradition even during a pandemic), visiting extended family indoors for Thanksgiving, going to Vegas, playdates, driving to a neighboring state to get their hair styled (ours are closed)  etc etc. That is risky behavior. Totally non-essential. Our County Health Officer is asking people to stay indoors and there might be SIP orders soon and these people are exhibiting risky behavior with blatant disregard for public health.

Every time I see an essential worker, I remember to thank them for their service: be it the checkout person at costco, our mailman, Amazon delivery person, my 24 year old niece with a PhD in neuroscience who works in a lab on a Covid vaccine, our local nursery lady who is struggling to keep her business afloat. All of them are essential workers and I know that they have no choice and I appreciate their service. They are risking their lives to keep us all chugging along, but, doing their jobs is not the same as behaving in a way that creates unnecessary risks to the entire society.

[mathnerd]

22 minutes ago, MEmama said:

Ultimately I decided fewer people in public=less exposure for everyone. 

During a raging pandemic, this is the Golden Rule.

[Xahm]

The whole thing is hard, and there are so many decisions and such balancing. My husband is a police officer and for the first several months, he wasn't even allowed to mask at work. Now he can, and does, but he still is going in and out of homes, riding with people in his car, etc. He doesn't tell me if people have spat at him, but it happens. Some people have definitely tried to avoid arrest by coughing and claiming Covid. So, we're at pretty high risk of him getting it, but low risk of complications due to age and overall health. For each activity, I feel like I'm weighing so many factors. For example, my parents still come over. They are in pretty good health and have decided that they are happy to take on the risk. I'm not stopping them because they are educated, informed people who have decided they want to be part of family life. At the same time, my 90 year old Granddad is a different story. I go to his house when he needs help with something, but we both mask, and if the kids have to come, too, they play outside. Other things I'm much more conflicted by. I'm allowing my oldest 2 to go on vacation with my husband's parents. I don't think the trip is a good idea, but the in laws were going to go anyway, and I don't think having the kids there will increase risk overall. In fact, they will probably be doing more outdoor activities because of the kids. I still don't feel good about it, but I also wouldn't feel good keeping them home. They will be staying home for 2 weeks after they get back, and they are very mask-compliant and will guilt their grandparents into complying. I hesitate to admit that I'm allowing this, and if I'm judged for it I get that, but I want to illustrate the thinking of some of us who make crazy decisions. All that said, we mask and all my kids know what "give people their space" means. We don't go to things where we will be in closed areas for significant periods of time. We have been judged both for being way too strict and way too lax. It hurts and it's hard. I'm praying for vaccines to make a big difference soon, and I filled out the vaccine study questionnaire again and this time they are looking for my demographic, so maybe I can make a positive impact that way. 

[prairiewindmomma]

Back on OP’s original point, I have seen more of a regional/partisan divide on masking than a class divide. Where I live, most people mask. The city has signs up, schools are closed (buildings never opened this year), and there is just general acceptance that masking is what one does when one goes in public. We have some village idiot exceptions—include some health care workers—but the culture on a whole is mask compliance.

I saw my family in a different region this summer, and it was completely different. People didn’t mask in stores. Life was relatively normal. Schools opened this fall. School has continued even though students and staff are sick and they can’t find enough substitutes, so they combine classes. They have half the population of my area, and now have double the cases. For a time they were sending cases out of state—on three hour ambulance rides because local hospitals were full—and now those states are full up too.

Both locations have grocery store workers, nurses, amazon delivery people, factory workers, plumbers, etc.  The difference is in personal activities. Restaurants are closed here to public dining. Restaurants there are open. Stores here are limited to 50% capacity. Stores there are not. Social gatherings here still happen for some families, but it is not the norm. My doctor friend there just sent homecoming pics from last month—his kid was playing football and the whole school was there cheering, he had a family pic on the field, and the teens had a dance after. None of them were masked....in a state whose governor has pled with them to mask. It’s just completely wild to see how locked down things have been here—we have been in phase 1 since March—compared to how open they are there.
 

 

 

[wathe]

58 minutes ago, TCB said:

This is so bizarre to me because personal risk is not driving my behavior at all. I do not understand how health care workers cannot understand, or possibly care, that the higher the incidence of virus, whether they are at risk from it or not, the greater the risk to the vulnerable population. Also, whether it makes a lot of difference or not, I go to work but otherwise do not engage in risky behavior because I want to look at myself in the mirror at the end of this and know that I did my level best to lessen the problem not make it worse. 
 

ETA - I also find it incomprehensible that health care workers do not think that their example can make a difference in the community.

ITA.  I don't see it among HCW I work with either.  And yes, community behaviour of HCW and setting an example is totally a thing.  "Conduct unbecoming of a physcian" is grounds to lose your license here.  Flouting public health mandates might actually get you into professional trouble.

[Mrs Tiggywinkle]

27 minutes ago, wathe said:

ITA.  I don't see it among HCW I work with either.  And yes, community behaviour of HCW and setting an example is totally a thing.  "Conduct unbecoming of a physcian" is grounds to lose your license here.  Flouting public health mandates might actually get you into professional trouble.

It was different in March but I’ve seen a lot of change since then.  None of the behavior I see is flouting any public health mandates; even the wedding one of my MD friends officiated at was at 50% of the venue capacity and so was allowed(it wouldn’t be now because our cases have spiked).  Most restaurants are open; nobody is policing small gatherings. And there are pictures all over my social media, so I can’t imagine anyone is too concerned. 
I think there is a lot of Covid fatigue. 

 

 

[Not_a_Number]

2 minutes ago, Mrs Tiggywinkle said:

It was different in March but I’ve seen a lot of change since then.  None of the behavior I see is flouting any public health mandates; even the wedding one of my MD friends officiated at was at 50% of the venue capacity and so was allowed(it wouldn’t be now because our cases have spiked).  Most restaurants are open; nobody is policing small gatherings. And there are pictures all over my social media, so I can’t imagine anyone is too concerned. 
I think there is a lot of Covid fatigue. 

The sad thing is that you could still have the worst wave up ahead of you 😞. From what I know of the stats where you are, most people haven't been hit yet, so there's little immunity. 

[Mrs Tiggywinkle]

1 minute ago, Not_a_Number said:

The sad thing is that you could still have the worst wave up ahead of you 😞. From what I know of the stats where you are, most people haven't been hit yet, so there's little immunity. 

The numbers look bad, but the truth is that most of the people who have had Covid locally are HCW(mostly CNAs in nursing homes), nursing home residents, or prisoners. There is definitely community spread, but it is limited:  I do think that the mask mandate helps; people are very compliant.  And the bars are mostly closed depending on location.  But just this week I’ve had one Christmas party and one baby shower invite. Both are nurses hosting. I expect that kind of gatherings is what is going to push the spread over the next month or so.  
Many of my colleagues at work and in the ED have now recovered from Covid, and I’ve seen a shift in attitude since early October when we all started getting sick.  They assume they’re immune now.  I don’t assume I’m immune and have zero desire to contract Covid a third time.

[Not_a_Number]

Just now, Mrs Tiggywinkle said:

 I don’t assume I’m immune and have zero desire to contract Covid a third time.

I can see why you wouldn't... although you probably are for a bit? 

Are you all better? 

[Mrs Tiggywinkle]

19 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

I can see why you wouldn't... although you probably are for a bit? 

Are you all better? 

I probably am but I’m not going to risk it lol.

Body aches, fatigue, depression, brain fog. It’s the never ending slog but now I seem to have a good two or three hours every day. 

[Not_a_Number]

Just now, Mrs Tiggywinkle said:

I probably am but I’m not going to risk it lol.

Body aches, fatigue, depression, brain fog. It’s the never ending slog but now I seem to have a good two or three hours every day. 

Ugh. I'm very sorry. I hope you keep getting better. 

[kbutton]

 

4 hours ago, popmom said:

Angry? Judging? Condescending? What all does upset entail? I think that's the reason for this thread. I mean--I'm not saying I don't struggle with the same things. Clearly I do. But what does it accomplish? 

I have read enough of the biblical book of James to know it accomplishes nothing, but yet I still have to work through it. Telling myself I am not angry is not effective. 

4 hours ago, Mrs Tiggywinkle said:

All were mild or asymptomatic(HCW at this hospital are tested twice weekly).

My HCW husband has yet to be offered any kind of testing. I am in awe. 

4 hours ago, Mrs Tiggywinkle said:

I would think so. They are wearing an N95 with a surgical Mask over it, face shields, head coverings, gowns and booties for every patient seen in the ER, covid symptoms or not.  That has to significantly reduce viral load. And right now there is plenty of PPE to change between patients.

So are they getting it outside of work? DH has not seen many HCW's with it, and the ones that have had it got it outside of work or got it early before it was supposedly in our area.

3 hours ago, TCB said:

This is so bizarre to me because personal risk is not driving my behavior at all. I do not understand how health care workers cannot understand, or possibly care, that the higher the incidence of virus, whether they are at risk from it or not, the greater the risk to the vulnerable population. Also, whether it makes a lot of difference or not, I go to work but otherwise do not engage in risky behavior because I want to look at myself in the mirror at the end of this and know that I did my level best to lessen the problem not make it worse. 

ETA - I also find it incomprehensible that health care workers do not think that their example can make a difference in the community.

My DH would agree with you. That said, his perception of current risk and risk three months ago is vastly different--two or three months ago, we weren't taking extra trips to the store, but it wasn't a big deal to go vs. doing pickup or delivery, but we were selective about times and about which stores. Now we're avoiding as much as absolutely possible. 

 

[Soror]

16 hours ago, regentrude said:

yes and no. One single customer probably doesn't make a difference - but they have those jobs because there are now enough people who have groceries delivered. And they're spending extra time in the store shopping YOUR order.
It is ethically complicated and not clear cut. Would the person otherwise have no source of income? Would they have a more dangerous job and this one is actually safer?

It's the same difficult questions that come up in discussions about sweatshops and child labor: would it be better if those didn't exist but folks had no way to earn a living and would starve? what is the responsibility of the consumer here if there is no societal solution? Very tricky questions and no easy answers (please note that i am not saying grocery deliver = child labor! But it raises similar issues, IMO)

Sweatshops came to my mind to but I didn't want to make the comparison. It is a similar issue.

15 hours ago, MEmama said:

When grocery delivery became available to our town (we were isolating at home at the time because DS had COVID), I struggled mightily with this question. And at first I did feel guilty/ uncomfortable ordering delivery—was I just deflecting potential risk to myself onto someone else? Or is it safer for that worker to have fewer customers in the store? 
 

Ultimately I decided fewer people in public=less exposure for everyone. While at first I wondered if delivery was classist, or smacks of elitism, I realized that I don’t know the workers economic status nor they mine. They aren’t guaranteed to be different at all. I do tip very well, though, for the few services we ask of others (grocery delivery, take out). Those are hard jobs, pandemic or no. 

I do agree less people in the store is better but that doesn't erase for me that it is a class issue. Those type of jobs do not pay well, it is going to be a rare employee doing those jobs that is not a low income worker, or at best middle income if they happen to be doing that job in addition to something else or have another earner in the household that is doing better. It isn't just grocery shopping though. Any shopping people do right now is putting risk on others, all the way up the manufacturing, distributing, stocking, and delivery.

 

[Soror]

As others mentioned lower income people often have less access to healthcare anyway, so it especially stinks. It just further illustrates the disparity in our country. We're all in this together, except we aren't, some can isolate themselves from nearly 100% of risk easily, many don't have that choice. Some threads and comments on here seem to be forgetting this fact or oblivious, I find it in bad taste. It makes me frustrated and sad and I don't see a way moving forward possible that it isn't the case. Acknowledging the disparity is a start though.

[Not_a_Number]

3 minutes ago, Soror said:

Sweatshops came to my mind to but I didn't want to make the comparison. It is a similar issue.

I do agree less people in the store is better but that doesn't erase for me that it is a class issue. Those type of jobs do not pay well, it is going to be a rare employee doing those jobs that is not a low income worker, or at best middle income if they happen to be doing that job in addition to something else or have another earner in the household that is doing better. It isn't just grocery shopping though. Any shopping people do right now is putting risk on others, all the way up the manufacturing, distributing, stocking, and delivery.

It's definitely a class issue, but there's nothing I can DO to make it better 😕 . I mean, I try to tip a ton, and I have people leave food on my doorstep without interacting with me (that's safer for them as well as for me), but there's nothing else I can do. Do you have suggestions? 😞 

[Amy Gen]

Another side of this coin is the perceived difference in how we, the public are asked to behave and how our some of our more fortunate “leaders” are behaving. 
 

I really do believe that everyone is doing what they think is best and everyone believes they never take risks that are not “absolutely necessary”. The problem is that your necessary might not look necessary to me and the other way around.
 

This becomes an issue when we find out that our governor and mayors are going out to fancy dinners and parties and vacations while they threaten more “drastic” lockdowns and implore the public to stay at home. 
 

Their words say “We are all in this together.” But their actions say, “If you filthy peasants would stay home, my dinner at the French Laundry would be much more enjoyable.” 
 

 

[MEmama]

18 minutes ago, Soror said:

Sweatshops came to my mind to but I didn't want to make the comparison. It is a similar issue.

I do agree less people in the store is better but that doesn't erase for me that it is a class issue. Those type of jobs do not pay well, it is going to be a rare employee doing those jobs that is not a low income worker, or at best middle income if they happen to be doing that job in addition to something else or have another earner in the household that is doing better. It isn't just grocery shopping though. Any shopping people do right now is putting risk on others, all the way up the manufacturing, distributing, stocking, and delivery.

 

All of this is true, but what are the solutions? What are your ideas?

Everyone needs groceries. Is it better for MORE people to be in a store or FEWER? Neither changes the fact that grocery store workers don’t make huge incomes, but one choice makes it *safer* for everyone.
 

And what about other items, because you’re right, it’s not just groceries. If too few people are shopping or ordering from restaurants, those business close. So is it better if people CONTINUE to shop, albeit in a different way, or CEASE to contribute to the economy? 
 

I don’t know about you, but I vote for higher minimum wages and economic help, and for leaders who want to support their communities and country instead of letting everyone sink or swim. That’s one very real solution that I participate in. I am intentional in the way I shop and who I support. I’ve spent more money during this pandemic than ever before purchasing new books from our local bookstore, on enormous tips to our grocery delivery person and when we get take out, and trying my level best to support businesses in my community. Those are things I can do to help, so I do. 
 

I've asked before. What do you think are some solutions? We all see the problems. But what else can we do about them? 

[MEmama]

Thinking a little more on the idea of grocery delivery being regarded as “classist”: I would absolutely agree if delivery were only available for an additional cost, which would clearly affect some people more than others. If I had to pay for someone else to fetch my groceries for me, yeah, that would be deeply uncomfortable and I’d have a very difficult time participating in that system under any circumstances. But as it is, delivery is free. It is as available for a minimum wage earner as it is the millionaire. Now, I am in a position where I can afford to tip well so I do, but if I couldn’t, it isn’t necessary. Literally delivery is available to all, so I don’t think “classist” is the right term to be using.

What is true is the painful income disparity in this country, and obviously that is a very real issue. But that doesn’t stem from grocery delivery, that’s the result of decades of “governing” and doesn’t have anything to do with the subject here. I do think they need to be separated in order to have an honest conversation and brainstorm real solutions.

[catz]

37 minutes ago, MEmama said:

 

I've asked before. What do you think are some solutions? We all see the problems. But what else can we do about them? 

I agree.

I feel like some anger is misplaced from everyone on this issue.   Employers should be providing PPE and the safest possible working conditions.  Maybe a few hours a day just set up for curbside/delivery orders with no other shoppers.   Essential workers should have easy access to free testing a couple times a week ideally.  They should also have hazard pay and health insurance and quarantine coverage.  Corporate CEO's shouldn't be sitting alone safely working at their home office collecting millions while there are people in the trenches every day.  This situation has really highlighted how broken the system is and the inequalities of it, and we should be pressing our employers and politicians for better policies to support working families.  Had good early decisions been made last winter, we would not be in this situation in terms of spread.  I feel like the "ruling class" loves to see the peons griping at each other because it is a distraction from the root of the actual problems.  

By the same token, people sitting at home eating bon bons in their filtered air all day shouldn't be cursing those that need to be out and blaming them for spread.  

But I don't see how sending more bodies through indoor public spaces helps anyone right now?  It would hurt people working at those places the most actually.  I am mindfully supporting businesses that have the most employee safety minded policies.  Our urban businesses that are being forward with covid safety and talk seem to have had very few cases and not regularly spreading in the work place.  That gets harder as community spread is more prevalent so we'll see.   

But if there are concrete suggestions that the average person can make to support essential workers that are out, I'd love to hear them.  Heck, I'll write letters and make phone calls if that will help.  

ETA - curbside is available here for free many places right now too so that's a good point ME.  Delivery some places too.  

Edited December 3, 2020 by FuzzyCatz

[Mrs Tiggywinkle]

1 hour ago, MEmama said:

Thinking a little more on the idea of grocery delivery being regarded as “classist”: I would absolutely agree if delivery were only available for an additional cost, which would clearly affect some people more than others. If I had to pay for someone else to fetch my groceries for me, yeah, that would be deeply uncomfortable and I’d have a very difficult time participating in that system under any circumstances. But as it is, delivery is free. It is as available for a minimum wage earner as it is the millionaire. Now, I am in a position where I can afford to tip well so I do, but if I couldn’t, it isn’t necessary. Literally delivery is available to all, so I don’t think “classist” is the right term to be using.

What is true is the painful income disparity in this country, and obviously that is a very real issue. But that doesn’t stem from grocery delivery, that’s the result of decades of “governing” and doesn’t have anything to do with the subject here. I do think they need to be separated in order to have an honest conversation and brainstorm real solutions.

I’m impressed you have free grocery delivery. We don’t have it here, and the coworkers I know who have it available are paying around $8-10 for the convenience.  There are only two grocery stores within driving distance of me locally that are offering curbside. One is free, and one was a $3 surcharge.

Edited December 3, 2020 by Mrs Tiggywinkle

[OH_Homeschooler]

19 hours ago, Bootsie said:

But many of the taxpayers funding this are ALSO working more than their normal and receiving pay cuts.  

What do you propose instead? Not boosting their pay because not everyone is getting a boost? Letting them leave the profession, and watching education fail? Yes it sucks that some people are getting less pay but still have to pay taxes, but that's how it's always been. 

Edited December 3, 2020 by OH_Homeschooler

[MEmama]

13 minutes ago, Mrs Tiggywinkle said:

I’m impressed you have free grocery delivery. We don’t have it here, and the coworkers I know who have it available are paying around $8-10 for the convenience.  There are only two grocery stores within driving distance of me locally that are offering curbside. One is free, and one was a $3 surcharge.

Yes, I should have included curbside pickup. That was an oversight.

[Corraleno]

"People shouldn't criticize those who go to bars and parties and don't wear masks and therefore put other people's lives at risk, because there are poor people in America" is a nonsequitur.

The fact that some people are forced to risk their lives while others can avoid most of the risk is a serious, systemic problem that existed long before covid. When the same politicians who vote against raising the minimum wage (while voting to raise their own salaries) and vote against universal healthcare (while they get top quality care) and vote against worker protections tell you that we need to keep the economy running at full tilt "because the working poor really want to work," they are full of shit. What the working poor want is to not starve or be homeless, they do not want to get sick and die for the sake of wealthy politicians' investment portfolios.

People who contribute to the spread of a deadly disease are the ones who are harming poor people, not the ones working from home and ordering delivery or curbside pickup. I have relatives who decided that last summer was the perfect time to tour the US, since tourist attractions would not be crowded while all the frightened sheeple stayed home. They are going to parties, having big Thanksgiving dinners, etc. They are far from poor. They also complain bitterly about paying taxes that support services for the poor and they vote for politicians that vote against the poor. I stay home, tip extremely generously for any delivery services, vote for raising the minimum wage, vote for bond issues like building low income housing even when it raises my taxes, and vote for politicians who want to actually help the poor rather than exploit them. People like my relatives benefit from an economic system that keeps people poor, they vote to keep that system intact, and then they behave in ways that further endanger the people whose exploitation benefits them. The idea that it's the people calling them idiots who are the real "elitists" is a joke.

 

[MEmama]

15 minutes ago, Mrs Tiggywinkle said:

I’m impressed you have free grocery delivery. We don’t have it here, and the coworkers I know who have it available are paying around $8-10 for the convenience.  There are only two grocery stores within driving distance of me locally that are offering curbside. One is free, and one was a $3 surcharge.

I’m glad you have free curbside available. Really, population wise the majority of Americans do by now. Certainly living rurally definitely comes with its disadvantages, there is no doubt. In many ways the costs are much higher to do so, both on an individual level and on government services (aka our tax dollars at work). That’s another conversation!

FWIW the grocery that delivers to me is 40 minutes away from my small town. I consider it local and definitely “driving distance”. 
 

[Not_a_Number]

1 hour ago, Thatboyofmine said:

The 'Flu + Covid is Happening' thread is a prime example of the holier-than-thou attitudes that keep popping up here.    Not even several posts in and it's "well, sure he got sick, he went to a restaurant."

I feel like this discussion already happened on that thread, but just to be clear... the reason people say that is because 

a) People who have stayed up to date are aware that restaurants are a MAJOR risk. 

and

b) People are extremely nervous about catching it while even staying in, so hearing about people who are "careful" but catch it freaks people out. 

[Mrs Tiggywinkle]

2 minutes ago, MEmama said:

I’m glad you have free curbside available. Really, population wise the majority of Americans do by now. Certainly living rurally definitely comes with its disadvantages, there is no doubt. In many ways the costs are much higher to do so, both on an individual level and on government services (aka our tax dollars at work). That’s another conversation!

FWIW the grocery that delivers to me is 40 minutes away from my small town. I consider it local and definitely “driving distance”. 
 

The only local grocery store that delivers is about 40 minutes away from me, but they only deliver within a five mile radius. Instacart and other similar services are not available.

it is really difficult for people who arr basically shut ins, like my grandmother. She has to rely on everyone else now to bring her groceries, and that’s hard. 

[popmom]

16 minutes ago, Corraleno said:

"People shouldn't criticize those who go to bars and parties and don't wear masks and therefore put other people's lives at risk, because there are poor people in America" is a nonsequitur.

The fact that some people are forced to risk their lives while others can avoid most of the risk is a serious, systemic problem that existed long before covid. When the same politicians who vote against raising the minimum wage (while voting to raise their own salaries) and vote against universal healthcare (while they get top quality care) and vote against worker protections tell you that we need to keep the economy running at full tilt "because the working poor really want to work," they are full of shit. What the working poor want is to not starve or be homeless, they do not want to get sick and die for the sake of wealthy politicians' investment portfolios.

People who contribute to the spread of a deadly disease are the ones who are harming poor people, not the ones working from home and ordering delivery or curbside pickup. I have relatives who decided that last summer was the perfect time to tour the US, since tourist attractions would not be crowded while all the frightened sheeple stayed home. They are going to parties, having big Thanksgiving dinners, etc. They are far from poor. They also complain bitterly about paying taxes that support services for the poor and they vote for politicians that vote against the poor. I stay home, tip extremely generously for any delivery services, vote for raising the minimum wage, vote for bond issues like building low income housing even when it raises my taxes, and vote for politicians who want to actually help the poor rather than exploit them. People like my relatives benefit from an economic system that keeps people poor, they vote to keep that system intact, and then they behave in ways that further endanger the people whose exploitation benefits them. The idea that it's the people calling them idiots who are the real "elitists" is a joke.

 

Just curious... How many friends do you have that are "poor"? How about working class? 

[MEmama]

1 minute ago, Mrs Tiggywinkle said:

The only local grocery store that delivers is about 40 minutes away from me, but they only deliver within a five mile radius. Instacart and other similar services are not available.

it is really difficult for people who arr basically shut ins, like my grandmother. She has to rely on everyone else now to bring her groceries, and that’s hard. 

No one is disputing that? Of course it’s hard.

I feel like this conversation has gone off track. That an elderly shut in doesn’t have grocery delivery still doesn’t make the service “classist” or “elitist”. It feels like grasping at straws now to prove some point that doesn’t quite add up in the first place.

Once again, every American is aware of income and regional disparities in this country. Half our population continually votes for the gap to widen; it’s been going on forever and it matters. The inequalities in this country are a disgrace always, and of course something like a pandemic is only going to make the situation worse. That’s what not having a good safety net and good governing does. For some, it’s a benefit—this is literally what they want. For others, to call it a National disgrace isn’t going nearly far enough. 
 

It’s been asked so many times...what do you think the solutions are? Because it seems to me the conversation is spinning instead of working toward real movement forward.

I'm listening, and ready to do the work.