Grammar question

[bibiche]

I hear this often and don’t understand it.

“I wish I had gone” turns into “I wish I would have went” or “Had I known, I would have...” becomes “If I would’ve known, I would have...” 

Is there a twisted grammatical reason for this construction (kind of like children speaking correctly until they start to understand language and then switching irregular verbs to the way they “should” be) or is it just the language changing? I used to hear this rarely but now I hear it all the time. 

Edited November 28, 2020 by bibiche

[Carrie12345]

I don’t know. I can be a real mess in casual speech.  I toss a lot of “I’d’ve”s in there.  I’m *capable of more proper grammar, but it usually only comes out in formal writing or when I’m snippy with someone.

[Jean in Newcastle]

The first just seems wrong to me.  (And I know that language evolves.  I still believe in some standards).

The second seems less wrong.  Maybe because the construction is the same in the preceding clause as in the main sentence? 

[bibiche]

26 minutes ago, Jean in Newcastle said:

The first just seems wrong to me.  (And I know that language evolves.  I still believe in some standards).

The second seems less wrong.  Maybe because the construction is the same in the preceding clause as in the main sentence? 

I see that I changed the second phrase a bit. If it had read (if it would have read 😜) 

“If I had known, I would have...”

”If I would have known, I would have...”

would that change your mind, or does it still sounds okay to you? For me it is still fingernails on the blackboard level. 

[bibiche]

In trying to find an answer to my question I happened upon this: https://data.grammarbook.com/blog/verbs/if-i-would-have-vs-if-i-had/

So it appears that it is always incorrect, but it doesn’t explain to me why people would think it correct. Maybe just because the ear gets used to hearing it?

[Matryoshka]

1 hour ago, bibiche said:

I hear this often and don’t understand it.

“I wish I had gone” turns into “I wish I would have went” or “Had I known, I would have...” becomes “If I would’ve known, I would have...” 

Is there a twisted grammatical reason for this construction (kind of like children speaking correctly until they start to understand language and then switching irregular verbs to the way they “should” be) or is it just the language changing? I used to hear this rarely but now I hear it all the time. 

So, in an 'if' clause you're supposed to use the subjunctive, which is a mood that's pretty much disappeared in English.  Then in the main clause you use the conditional (would have...).  Same for the second clause in a sentence expressing hopes like "I wish".

My guess is that since the subjunctive is effectively identical to the indicative in English, and people want to indicate or emphasize uncertainty, they add the 'would'.  This is what happens when we 'disappear' a whole mood, lol.  And why poor English to Spanish learners have to spend over a year wrapping their heads over what the subjunctive is, why it exists, and when to use each form when "if I were" or "I wish I were" is pretty much the only phrases in English where it kinda sorta persists (many people also default to 'if I was').  And it exists in places like this where it's effectively invisible.  I have an ESL book that goes over the English subjunctive for people used to it who wondering how to express themselves.

The real problem with the above example is that in either case it's a perfect tense and requires the past participle 'gone'.

I have gone
I had gone
I will have gone
I would/should/could/might/may have gone.

Nevereverevereverever can you use 'went' in the latter part of a verb phrase!  That is a conjugated verb; they can only be first in position in a verb phrase, after which can only be infinitives or participles.  Only one conjugated verb in a phrase! 

Edited November 28, 2020 by Matryoshka

[regentrude]

Obviously, this is not what we consider standard English, but constructions like this are common in many local dialects. "Have went" is common in the rural area I live. 

[regentrude]

1 hour ago, bibiche said:

So it appears that it is always incorrect, but it doesn’t explain to me why people would think it correct. Maybe just because the ear gets used to hearing it?

"Correct" is an arbitrary agreement. One dialect with a certain set of grammar rules has been chosen to be considered "correct" by academics. There are lots of other dialects that use non-standard grammar which, in itself, can be perfectly consistent. In many circumstances it does not matter to the speakers whether their speech is considered academically correct - to the folks who speak the dialect, there's nothing wrong with saying "I have went". Lots of other phrases and constructions would not pass muster with an English teacher: double negatives, sentences like "The horse needs rode". etc

I am at the moment reading a fascinating chapter about Ozark grammar in a book on Ozark folk speech. It is interesting what they did with verb tenses (which are not constructed in a consistent logical way in the English language anyway); often they used the same word for the past participle and the past tense for irregular verbs: break-broke-broke instead of broken or throw-throwed-throwed (there's a restaurant regionally famous for its "throwed rolls").

Seems to be a very traditional feature of speech.

Edited November 28, 2020 by regentrude

[bibiche]

Thanks, @Matryoshka. That sort of makes sense. Although in reading the comments from Brits and Kiwis on the link I posted, they don’t use these mangled constructions. One of them even said they thought that that was just how Americans spoke. 😅 

I wonder how much of it has to do with social media. Before our biggest influencers were news readers who used standard grammar. Now pretty much anyone can command an audience, regardless of education. So if someone who prefers  to employ a “local dialect” as regentrude mentions has a huge audience, that dialect suddenly has a huge audience and perhaps influences usage in other parts of the country.

[Matryoshka]

15 minutes ago, regentrude said:

Obviously, this is not what we consider standard English, but constructions like this are common in many local dialects. "Have went" is common in the rural area I live. 

Yes, I know it's in some local dialects.  Not in mine, though, it still hurts my ears!! 

I do think, however, that the grammar lords should give up the ghost with disallowing object pronouns after 'to be' in English.  NO ONE says "it is I" or "it is he" anymore.  C'mon, we don't.  Ever.  Sounds almost as bad as "mich bin's" in German or "soy mi" in Spanish would - those languages continue to follow that rule, but in English we seem to have abandoned it, though it's still on the books...

Edited November 28, 2020 by Matryoshka

[Jean in Newcastle]

1 hour ago, bibiche said:

I see that I changed the second phrase a bit. If it had read (if it would have read 😜) 

“If I had known, I would have...”

”If I would have known, I would have...”

would that change your mind, or does it still sounds okay to you? For me it is still fingernails on the blackboard level. 

Since I know that "would've" still is the same as "would have", no it doesn't change my impression of the sentence. . .   As I said, it is still wrong, it just doesn't grate as much to me.  I don't know why. 

[bibiche]

Just now, Matryoshka said:

I think the grammar lords should give up the ghost with using object pronouns after 'to be' in English.  NO ONE says "it is I" or "it is he" anymore.  C'mon, we don't.  Ever.  

😳 Um, I do. In my defense, my mother made me do it. 😜

[regentrude]

10 minutes ago, Matryoshka said:

I do think, however, that the grammar lords should give up the ghost with disallowing object pronouns after 'to be' in English.  NO ONE says "it is I" or "it is he" anymore.  C'mon, we don't.  Ever. 

I do. 

But then, I am also one of the few people who still uses "whom".

Edited November 28, 2020 by regentrude

[Matryoshka]

2 minutes ago, bibiche said:

😳 Um, I do. In my defense, my mother made me do it. 😜

Yeah, but c'mon, would you ever do it outside of her earshot?  "who did that?"  "It was I!"  Sounds like you're quoting Shakespeare!  You'd have to use a deep voice and a sweeping gesture along with it... 😄

Dh is always correcting the kids to say ... 'than I/he/she', which I think is also fading quickly into 'object' - hood.

I remain a stickler for using subject pronouns in the actual subject (rather than in the predicate nominative position) and object pronouns for all objects.  "Him and Sally went to the store" and "Joe gave it to Bob and I" are equally abominable.   Ya gotta draw the line somewhere. 😂

[Matryoshka]

2 minutes ago, regentrude said:

I do. 

But then, I am also one of the few people who still uses "whom".

LOL, I'm still down with 'whom'... 

But, when you call someone to chat on the phone, do you really say, "Hi Lucy, it's I!"   

[bibiche]

10 minutes ago, regentrude said:

I do. 

But then, I am also one of the few people who still uses "whom".

As am I. 👋 

[bibiche]

6 minutes ago, Matryoshka said:

LOL, I'm still down with 'whom'... 

But, when you call someone to chat on the phone, do you really say, "Hi Lucy, it's I!"   

Oh, goodness no! My mother said I always have to use my name. 😅

[regentrude]

10 minutes ago, Matryoshka said:

But, when you call someone to chat on the phone, do you really say, "Hi Lucy, it's I!"   

If *I* am the caller, of course I say "This is regentrude". However, if somebody calls and asks to speak to regentrude, I answer "this is she" (or "speaking") - but definitely not "this is her"

[bibiche]

9 minutes ago, Matryoshka said:

Yeah, but c'mon, would you ever do it outside of her earshot? 

I do, actually. I mean, I can code switch, but old habits die hard. (I also stand up straight and avoid slurping my soup. 😜)

[Matryoshka]

2 minutes ago, bibiche said:

I do, actually. I mean, I can code switch, but old habits die hard. (I also stand up straight and avoid slurping my soup. 😜)

When eating soup, do you also, as is proper, move your spoon away from you to the back of the bowl to scoop rather than toward you?  I was taught this, but admit I don't practice it at home.  I need to get invited to a schmancy dinner party. Maybe after Covid... 😋

Edited November 28, 2020 by Matryoshka

[bibiche]

5 minutes ago, Matryoshka said:

When eating soup, do you also, as is proper, move your spoon away from you to the back of the bowl to scoop rather than toward you?  I was taught this, but admit I don't practice it at home.  I need to get invited to a schmancy dinner party. Maybe after Covid... 😋

I do indeed. Even if I’m eating by myself. 😉

Edited November 28, 2020 by bibiche

[Jean in Newcastle]

27 minutes ago, Matryoshka said:

LOL, I'm still down with 'whom'... 

But, when you call someone to chat on the phone, do you really say, "Hi Lucy, it's I!"   

No, I say "This is she" when they ask for Jean

[Matryoshka]

Just now, Jean in Newcastle said:

No, I say "This is she" when they ask for Jean

Yeah, I guess I say that when they ask for me, but then it's a stranger and I'm usually trying to figure out if it's a spam call and being quite formal (more often they mispronounce our last name and I tell them there's no one by that name here...)

I apparently have appalling phone manners on casual calls.  😅  I mostly call my mom and kids.  My dad's a bit deaf, he gets my name.

So "who ate the last of the pie?", and you are the guilty party, you'd answer sheepishly "It was I"?  Let's assume you're not going to use names or otherwise rewrite the sentence.   

[regentrude]

7 minutes ago, Matryoshka said:

So "who ate the last of the pie?", and you are the guilty party, you'd answer sheepishly "It was I"?  Let's assume you're not going to use names or otherwise rewrite the sentence.   

Who answers like this to the question who ate/drank/wrote/performed any action other than being? Wouldn't one say "I did"?

[Matryoshka]

1 minute ago, regentrude said:

Who answers like this to the question who ate/drank/wrote/performed any action other than being? Wouldn't one say "I did"?

LOL, I'm just trying to figure out when you say 'it is (pronoun)' in casual use.  People do it all.the.time.  I seem to be having trouble coming up with the perfect example, but everyone keeps saying they use a totally different phrase.  I hear 'it's me'  or 'it was me' from people all the time - and never with 'I'.  Sometimes they add their name after "It's me, Mary".  No one else thinks "It is I, Mary" sounds... really pretentious and odd?   You don't ever say "ich bin's" in German, then, I take it, as you just generally speak more formally?  

I am talking about everyday, casual speech with close friends and family, not writing in formal papers or when calling(on) people who genuinely might not already know who was on the phone or at the door.

[regentrude]

6 minutes ago, Matryoshka said:

 You don't ever say "ich bin's" in German, then, I take it, as you just generally speak more formally?  

Of course I say "Ich bin's" in German. That is the grammatically correct way of saying "it is I" in German. Exactly the same 🙂

Edited November 28, 2020 by regentrude

[Matryoshka]

20 minutes ago, regentrude said:

Of course I say "Ich bin's" in German. That is the grammatically correct way of saying "it is I" in German. Exactly the same 🙂

Ay yi yi.  Exactly.  In German that is correct and sounds perfectly normal and anything else would be awful.  But English isn't German. 

So, in the exact context of where ever you'd give that very answer in German, what's the English?  "It is I", is obviously grammatically correct from a prescriptive standpoint, but from a descriptive standpoint, I'd argue the ship has sailed and "it's me" (with the contraction) is pretty much ubiquitous.  Unless everyone twists themselves into knots to avoid saying something they've been taught is wrong even though it's now pretty much standard among native English speakers.  At least American English, can't speak for the Brits/Aussies/Kiwis.

Unless you're now going to argue that the folks in your neck of the woods who constantly use "I have went" (the English equivalent of "Ich bin ging") also say "It is I"?

Edited November 28, 2020 by Matryoshka

[regentrude]

57 minutes ago, Matryoshka said:

So, in the exact context of where ever you'd give that very answer in German, what's the English?  "It is I", is obviously grammatically correct from a prescriptive standpoint, but from a descriptive standpoint, I'd argue the ship has sailed and "it's me" (with the contraction) is pretty much ubiquitous.  

Still ain't gonna say it 🙂

[Carrie12345]

2 hours ago, regentrude said:

If *I* am the caller, of course I say "This is regentrude". However, if somebody calls and asks to speak to regentrude, I answer "this is she" (or "speaking") - but definitely not "this is her"

I’ve been finding that “this is she” seems to throw off some callers. Whether that’s the grammar or the fact that someone didn’t immediately hang up is anyone’s guess.
(And I only pick up when I’m expecting important calls, lol.)

[Jean in Newcastle]

1 hour ago, Matryoshka said:

Ay yi yi.  Exactly.  In German that is correct and sounds perfectly normal and anything else would be awful.  But English isn't German. 

So, in the exact context of where ever you'd give that very answer in German, what's the English?  "It is I", is obviously grammatically correct from a prescriptive standpoint, but from a descriptive standpoint, I'd argue the ship has sailed and "it's me" (with the contraction) is pretty much ubiquitous.  Unless everyone twists themselves into knots to avoid saying something they've been taught is wrong even though it's now pretty much standard among native English speakers.  At least American English, can't speak for the Brits/Aussies/Kiwis.

Unless you're now going to argue that the folks in your neck of the woods who constantly use "I have went" (the English equivalent of "Ich bin ging") also say "It is I"?

I do say “It’s me” at times. But I don’t know how to explain this but in my mind at least, I am thinking of “Me” as a name of sorts. Which of course is the function of a pronoun as a replacement so maybe I have just adapted a colloquialism to my everyday use in that case. 

[Scarlett]

I remember teaching ds to say ‘it is I.’...he said it sounded like Jesus talking....and he demonstrated with big hand gestures and a deep voice. 

[Guest]

3 hours ago, regentrude said:

I do. 

But then, I am also one of the few people who still uses "whom".

I 💜 whom...

[bibiche]

11 minutes ago, Quill said:

I 💜 whom...

Although it does depend on who’s whom... 🤪

[Matryoshka]

51 minutes ago, Jean in Newcastle said:

I do say “It’s me” at times. But I don’t know how to explain this but in my mind at least, I am thinking of “Me” as a name of sorts. Which of course is the function of a pronoun as a replacement so maybe I have just adapted a colloquialism to my everyday use in that case. 

This is what I'm sayin'.  We all say it.  It's what's natural.  We're taught it's wrong (at least those of us who got taught grammar - not sure if most schools bother anymore...) but anyway, those of us who 'know' it's wrong try to avoid it, or heaven forbid, quoth "it is I".  Forsooth, it is not standard English usage anymore.  And that's where irregular verbs and every single 'exception' to every grammar rule comes from.  People start doing it 'wrong', and when everybody does, it's right.  There's just a lag...

There's also the whole 'don't split an infinitive' and 'don't end a sentence with a preposition nonsense' (that's not a preposition, it's an adverbial particle of a healthy Germanic phrasal verb...) but some uptight professors at some point decided that English, a Germanic language, should follow Latin grammar rules because Latin was 'better' in some way.  Both of those are because Latin languages have one-word verbs which can't be split nor have particles which wander around the sentence like German and English.  Each language has its own rules and exceptions.  There's lots of overlap, but yeesh, something that is totally wrong  in one language can be totally right in another.  And languages evolve.

I'm just not ready for 'I have went'... I recognize it's correct grammar for the local dialect.  But that hurts my ears way more than 'it's me', which let's face it, is not a localized thing.  Guess we all have our times when our inner prescriptivist and descriptivist do battle...  🤪

[Matryoshka]

15 minutes ago, Quill said:

I 💜 whom...

I'm with you all on whom.  Whom is awesome.

[Matryoshka]

40 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

I remember teaching ds to say ‘it is I.’...he said it sounded like Jesus talking....and he demonstrated with big hand gestures and a deep voice. 

YES!!!  I said the same thing upthread!  It cannot be said without a deep voice and impressive hand gestures.  It's not possible! 😂 

And I submit that is a sign that it's not how people really talk...   

[Jean in Newcastle]

31 minutes ago, Matryoshka said:

This is what I'm sayin'.  We all say it.  It's what's natural.  We're taught it's wrong (at least those of us who got taught grammar - not sure if most schools bother anymore...) but anyway, those of us who 'know' it's wrong try to avoid it, or heaven forbid, quoth "it is I".  Forsooth, it is not standard English usage anymore.  And that's where irregular verbs and every single 'exception' to every grammar rule comes from.  People start doing it 'wrong', and when everybody does, it's right.  There's just a lag...

There's also the whole 'don't split an infinitive' and 'don't end a sentence with a preposition nonsense' (that's not a preposition, it's an adverbial particle of a healthy Germanic phrasal verb...) but some uptight professors at some point decided that English, a Germanic language, should follow Latin grammar rules because Latin was 'better' in some way.  Both of those are because Latin languages have one-word verbs which can't be split nor have particles which wander around the sentence like German and English.  Each language has its own rules and exceptions.  There's lots of overlap, but yeesh, something that is totally wrong  in one language can be totally right in another.  And languages evolve.

I'm just not ready for 'I have went'... I recognize it's correct grammar for the local dialect.  But that hurts my ears way more than 'it's me', which let's face it, is not a localized thing.  Guess we all have our times when our inner prescriptivist and descriptivist do battle...  🤪

Well, part of the reason I think of “Me” as a name is because when I say “It’s me”, my friends reply “Hi Me!”  (Not the most original response but it’s part of our schtick). 

[Bootsie]

4 hours ago, Matryoshka said:

Yes, I know it's in some local dialects.  Not in mine, though, it still hurts my ears!! 

I do think, however, that the grammar lords should give up the ghost with disallowing object pronouns after 'to be' in English.  NO ONE says "it is I" or "it is he" anymore.  C'mon, we don't.  Ever.  Sounds almost as bad as "mich bin's" in German or "soy mi" in Spanish would - those languages continue to follow that rule, but in English we seem to have abandoned it, though it's still on the books...

You don't know my mom or sisters....

But, as I was typing this DD came in to ask if I wanted to watch "This is Us".

 

[Matryoshka]

2 minutes ago, Bootsie said:

You don't know my mom or sisters....

But, as I was typing this DD came in to ask if I wanted to watch "This is Us".

Weird that no one thought that show should be called This is We...  🤣

[Bootsie]

3 minutes ago, Matryoshka said:

Weird that no one thought that show should be called This is We...  🤣

It grates on my nerves every time I hear the "This is Us"  I wondered if the writers didn't know grammar or if it was done with poetic license to come across in a particular way

[theelfqueen]

I am so delighted to be in a thread filled with "would have" rather than "would of" that I forgot the original question.